Personal res management
swalk
Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<div class="IPBDescription">And lifeform and weapon upkeep cost</div>Clicking the eggs, seeing that the alien commander will be able to upgrade eggs to higher lifeforms in the hive, gave me an idea to improve alot of things.
Currently, the marine commander doesn't have spare PRes to drop weapons for his marines.
The commander PRes pool can deplete very quickly if you keep up with combat support.
And marines can buy weapons themselves for the most part.
I would like to see an upgrade on extractors, and harvesters(when alien commander gets more ways to support his team on the ground with PRes. - Umbra, Fury and Cloak(triggered chamber abilities, affecting players) seems like a perfect addition?)
This upgrade would cost TRes, and increase PRes income for the commander by a small % on that specific extractor/harvester.
That would kind of re-create the trade-off in NS1, that commander had to choose between supporting the team with meds/ammo or tech up.
The commanders would pay some team res that they could have spend for upgrades, and recieve better support for the team as long as they have that specific extractor/harvester up.
Seeing as the marine commander easily runs out of PRes by supporting his team with meds/ammo, I think weapon drops should be changed to TRes. May be the same for egg upgrading?
That way commanders could use their team resources for something else than turrets/MACs/ARCs, when he have gotten every single upgrade. And he would help marines with no personal res, creates the well-known relationship from NS1.
The costs would obviously need to be adjusted to fit the teamres pool, I think halfing the prices is a good start.
Then to adress the problem with whole teams popping a specific weapon/lifeform at the same point in the game.
We see whole teams popping shotguns at the same time, and full teams popping lerks or fades at the same time.
First, we unlock the lifeforms from the amount of hives, the high lifeforms cost a significant amount of resources anyway.
It would also help aliens in the struggle against the GLs to have a fade before the hive.
Then we put lifeform and weapon upkeep costs in, as personal res is often overflowing, and it prevents full teams popping the same weapon/lifeform at the same time in the early-game.
The cost should be increased be the % of teammates having the weapon/lifeform.
Let me put few examples:
<ul><li>A team of 10, one buys a shotgun for 20, it costs 22 for the next, 24 for the next, and 38 for the last guy to get a shotgun.</li><li>A team of 10, one evolves to fade for 50, next evolves for 55, next for 60, last for 90.</li><li>A team of 6, one buys a shotgun for 20, next buys it for 23, next for 27, next for 30, last guy pays 37.</li></ul>
Hope I got my math right.
Boiled down, the list of changes are these:
<ul><li>Upgrade on extractors and harvesters, costing teamres, increasing commander pres income by a small percentage</li><li>Alien commander able to upgrade eggs for team res(already planned?)</li><li>More support abilities uses personal res for alien commander(Umbra/Fury/Cloak would fit the role)</li><li>Marine commander weapon drops for teamres(half of PRes price?)</li><li>Lifeforms(fade and onos) untied from hives</li><li>Weapon and lifeform upkeep cost on % of team having that specific weapon/lifeform</li></ul>
This whole suggestion would increase the relationship between commanders and ground players, in terms of managing resources and strategy.
It would benefit the resource model in general, more trade-offs, and more in depth decision making.
It would help the hive 1 aliens in the battle against the GLs and marines camping near turrets.
It would encourage teams of mixed weapons/lifeforms, and prevent full teams popping the same lifeform/weapon at the same time.
It would also encourage basic weaponry/lifeform, ie. rifle and skulk.
Currently, the marine commander doesn't have spare PRes to drop weapons for his marines.
The commander PRes pool can deplete very quickly if you keep up with combat support.
And marines can buy weapons themselves for the most part.
I would like to see an upgrade on extractors, and harvesters(when alien commander gets more ways to support his team on the ground with PRes. - Umbra, Fury and Cloak(triggered chamber abilities, affecting players) seems like a perfect addition?)
This upgrade would cost TRes, and increase PRes income for the commander by a small % on that specific extractor/harvester.
That would kind of re-create the trade-off in NS1, that commander had to choose between supporting the team with meds/ammo or tech up.
The commanders would pay some team res that they could have spend for upgrades, and recieve better support for the team as long as they have that specific extractor/harvester up.
Seeing as the marine commander easily runs out of PRes by supporting his team with meds/ammo, I think weapon drops should be changed to TRes. May be the same for egg upgrading?
That way commanders could use their team resources for something else than turrets/MACs/ARCs, when he have gotten every single upgrade. And he would help marines with no personal res, creates the well-known relationship from NS1.
The costs would obviously need to be adjusted to fit the teamres pool, I think halfing the prices is a good start.
Then to adress the problem with whole teams popping a specific weapon/lifeform at the same point in the game.
We see whole teams popping shotguns at the same time, and full teams popping lerks or fades at the same time.
First, we unlock the lifeforms from the amount of hives, the high lifeforms cost a significant amount of resources anyway.
It would also help aliens in the struggle against the GLs to have a fade before the hive.
Then we put lifeform and weapon upkeep costs in, as personal res is often overflowing, and it prevents full teams popping the same weapon/lifeform at the same time in the early-game.
The cost should be increased be the % of teammates having the weapon/lifeform.
Let me put few examples:
<ul><li>A team of 10, one buys a shotgun for 20, it costs 22 for the next, 24 for the next, and 38 for the last guy to get a shotgun.</li><li>A team of 10, one evolves to fade for 50, next evolves for 55, next for 60, last for 90.</li><li>A team of 6, one buys a shotgun for 20, next buys it for 23, next for 27, next for 30, last guy pays 37.</li></ul>
Hope I got my math right.
Boiled down, the list of changes are these:
<ul><li>Upgrade on extractors and harvesters, costing teamres, increasing commander pres income by a small percentage</li><li>Alien commander able to upgrade eggs for team res(already planned?)</li><li>More support abilities uses personal res for alien commander(Umbra/Fury/Cloak would fit the role)</li><li>Marine commander weapon drops for teamres(half of PRes price?)</li><li>Lifeforms(fade and onos) untied from hives</li><li>Weapon and lifeform upkeep cost on % of team having that specific weapon/lifeform</li></ul>
This whole suggestion would increase the relationship between commanders and ground players, in terms of managing resources and strategy.
It would benefit the resource model in general, more trade-offs, and more in depth decision making.
It would help the hive 1 aliens in the battle against the GLs and marines camping near turrets.
It would encourage teams of mixed weapons/lifeforms, and prevent full teams popping the same lifeform/weapon at the same time.
It would also encourage basic weaponry/lifeform, ie. rifle and skulk.
Comments
It would also make map control more important for marines, since they will want to protect the upgraded extractors more than the other ones and if you have the upper hand, you can support your troops more and even buy them weapons if they lose them on the front line and run out of pres.
Making the lifeform and weapon cost depend on how many there are already is also a good way to make the current pres/tres system work better for more players. Making a team's offensive power scale linearly with player numbers but leaving everything else the same does create problems. For example, you don't want to know how fast a CC would drop against a 10 skulk cloak rush, or even 10 gorges (soon lerks) bile bombing at the same time. Same goes for 10 GLs vs. hive. Especially due to its AoE nature, that marine team will obliterate everything in its path by just spamming 10 grenades over and over. Even a fade or onos would die from the massive AoE damage.
<i>By the way, I'd also like to have proper alien spawn scaling with player numbers, but that's for another topic.</i>
We see whole teams popping shotguns at the same time, and full teams popping lerks or fades at the same time.
First, we unlock the lifeforms from the amount of hives, the high lifeforms cost a significant amount of resources anyway.
It would also help aliens in the struggle against the GLs to have a fade before the hive.
Then we put lifeform and weapon upkeep costs in, as personal res is often overflowing, and it prevents full teams popping the same weapon/lifeform at the same time in the early-game.
The cost should be increased be the % of teammates having the weapon/lifeform.
Let me put few examples:
A team of 10, one buys a shotgun for 20, it costs 22 for the next, 24 for the next, and 38 for the last guy to get a shotgun.
A team of 10, one evolves to fade for 50, next evolves for 55, next for 60, last for 90.
A team of 6, one buys a shotgun for 20, next buys it for 23, next for 27, next for 30, last guy pays 37.
Hope I got my math right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This suggestion is so mind boggling bad that I don't understand why it is still being suggested.
Shotguns need a flat res increase (up to 25 or even 30 pres). Its very strong for the amount of res it costs, its quickly teched and there is no sense of penalty if you die while having one. It doesn't vanish upon death so someone else can pick it up or you can run back and get it. And because it's so damn cheap, you can practically purchase a new one without feeling like you just put a dent in your pocketbook. Where as the aliens lose all their res points when they die. Hopefully this will get rid of the mentality that some marine players carry that they can just "Rambo this ###### up" because there is no sense of a death penalty.
I'll agree with unlocking alien life-forms from the number of hives. But again, I don't agree with the res ramp-up per number of life forms on the map. Instead, have the cost of life-forms depends on the number of hives active.
Fade for example. 1 hive: 60 pres, 2 hives: 50 pres, 3 hives: 40 pres.
Onos. 1-2 hive: 100 and then 90 for 3. (4 hives? 80)
Ramp up costs for Aliens per life form will impacted them much harder as skulks (and lerks) are not strong enough against teched marines.
Shotguns need a flat res increase (up to 25 or even 30 pres). Its very strong for the amount of res it costs, its quickly teched and there is no sense of penalty if you die while having one. It doesn't vanish upon death so someone else can pick it up or you can run back and get it. And because it's so damn cheap, you can practically purchase a new one without feeling like you just put a dent in your pocketbook. Where as the aliens lose all their res points when they die. Hopefully this will get rid of the mentality that some marine players carry that they can just "Rambo this ###### up" because there is no sense of a death penalty.
I'll agree with unlocking alien life-forms from the number of hives. But again, I don't agree with the res ramp-up per number of life forms on the map. Instead, have the cost of life-forms depends on the number of hives active.
Fade for example. 1 hive: 60 pres, 2 hives: 50 pres, 3 hives: 40 pres.
Onos. 1-2 hive: 100 and then 90 for 3. (4 hives? 80)
Ramp up costs for Aliens per life form will impacted them much harder as skulks (and lerks) are not strong enough against teched marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly what makes my suggestion "mind boggling bad"?
I don't know how much you've actually played the game, but your suggestion doesn't really fit into the game.
This game is meant to be played well with playernumbers between 16v16 and 6v6.
Using hive numbers or other set limits, like flat increases, doesn't scale with player numbers at all.
With my suggestion, it will good idea to not buy the same weapon as your teammate, as you can save cash that way.
My suggestion is a soft limit(pay extra) where your suggestion is a hard limit(can't get).
It promotes teamwork and scales pretty well with player numbers, what else can you ask for?
Shotguns need a flat res increase (up to 25 or even 30 pres). Its very strong for the amount of res it costs, its quickly teched and there is no sense of penalty if you die while having one. It doesn't vanish upon death so someone else can pick it up or you can run back and get it. And because it's so damn cheap, you can practically purchase a new one without feeling like you just put a dent in your pocketbook. Where as the aliens lose all their res points when they die. Hopefully this will get rid of the mentality that some marine players carry that they can just "Rambo this ###### up" because there is no sense of a death penalty.
I'll agree with unlocking alien life-forms from the number of hives. But again, I don't agree with the res ramp-up per number of life forms on the map. Instead, have the cost of life-forms depends on the number of hives active.
Fade for example. 1 hive: 60 pres, 2 hives: 50 pres, 3 hives: 40 pres.
Onos. 1-2 hive: 100 and then 90 for 3. (4 hives? 80)
Ramp up costs for Aliens per life form will impacted them much harder as skulks (and lerks) are not strong enough against teched marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a terrible solution, making it so no one can buy the tech in the first place is not the solution to having too many tech items on the field. Should shotguns be more expensive? Sure I think they damn well should be, but I do not think the solution to too many fades is making the fade cost more.
What can 1 hive aliens do against a full team of shotguns with good coordination, aim, medpacks/nanos etc? Not much, because their lifeforms just aren't strong enough unless they get really lucky flanks, cloaks etc. This is a balance issue with 'numbers' - pres costs, damage per hit, range, health, tres cost to get shells and so on. It's also a design issue with the lerk - the long range lifeform SHOULD be putting pressure on shotgunners, but it does not because of spike accuracy and cropduster spores. The gorge is a better long range attacker than the lerk in the current form of the game. It also illustrates problems with the 'egg spawning' mechanic - marines can checkmate aliens much more easily than aliens can checkmate marines, provided they execute a shotgun attack really well.
What can marines at the 2 minute mark do against a full team of lerks? Not enough, especially with the recent shotgun change. A whole team of lerks can still rush down a command chair just like they used to (try it and see - just get a mic and goad your teammates into all evolving with you).
There's no need to change the fundamental mechanics of how you buy things (or how commanders buy things), when the problem doesn't stem from there. Look at it more like an RTS and less like an FPS - at what TIME in a typical game should a team be able to have lerks/shotguns? The later you push things, the more opportunity there is for the opponent to diversify their team setup and fight you. If shotguns or lerks can't be mass-produced at very early timings, their power drops off dramatically (as aliens get 3 shell carapace, or marines get LMG/shotgun groups moving about, with turrets and welders for defense).
Adding more ways to spend pres (on different mechanics) is also a good approach. I've been playing a lot of games lately where I buy nothing but welders for the first few minutes, and I dedicate myself to defending res towers rather than pushing super hard with a shotgun. A welder is cheap, I'm being effective and I'm not putting a 20+ res investment on the line every time I fight. You can do the same thing as aliens - if you're confident in your walljumping and stuff, a 2 res carapace upgrade might be the small edge you need to be <i>very </i>effective as a skulk. You can do a lot with a carapace skulk, without taking on the risks of the lerk. Proper design of the game means incentivizing these types of choices, without completely removing the possibility of a cheeky full-team shotgun rush.
The other side of this is that players need time to develop their understanding of the game. At some point, marines will realize they can re-buy shotguns when fades show up, and then kill all the fades the moment they leave their team's support. Then aliens discover that they need lerks to spore while fades attack (with gorges around for healing to complete the experience), and the ball is back in the marines' court. What do they need, in that case? Flamethrowers, turrets, and other things that complicate combat. It's easy to start on a back-and-forth with your tech choices if you survive the first few minutes of the game when things are more volatile (killing an early shotgun rush with effective skulk play is one way to jump into the later part of the game with a big advantage).
Yep, and then the final step is bringing back 'res from kill' so that you earn the good gear by being effective in the game. Then it can be a proper NS game again :)
This wouldn't actually happen, unless weapons were terribly balanced so that only one or two weapon types were viable. Right now there are three, which is too many for them all to be bought up too much.
That said, I still don't like the idea. Lets say three players want shotguns, one of whom only has 20 resources while the other have enough for the added shotgun costs. If the player with 20 resources doesn't buy their shotgun first they're screwed, and there's no room in this game for standing around in base sorting out who can afford to buy what in what order.
I think the main problem with early shotgun is that marines are able to buy them 2 times with relative ease early game. The problem here lies in the marine starting res, I think it should be lowered to 15(maybe 20) res so they will only be able to afford 1 shotgun when its researched. If marines are able to afford more shotguns later then they deserve it since they have enough res. IF they lose their early investment then they won't be able to use it in important pushes or in as much high tech equipment later in the game. This may not be needed though, we will see.
The key to prevent the fade spam is for marines to force aliens to use their resources and delay 2nd by picking out their rt's. IF this is done correctly marines should be able to take care of the fades that pop up with res advantage.(more weapons, more med/ammo packs = makes it really hard for fades).
I really don't like the scaling of res depending how many are on the field. I doubt many players would like the upkeep idea. I think players will be annoyed if they are forced to pay more for they weapons/lifeforms just because they were not fast enough to advance. I don't think this is the correct way to address the problem.
About the hive ideas, I would not mind if fades would cost more res on 1 hive than on 2 hive if they unlock the lifeforms. But if possible I would try to keep the alien lifeforms always cost the same res, makes it little bit simpler.
Now about the res management part, I really don't like the ability to upgrade resources towers. I have seen it in other games but never really successful. I do however agree with the issue that marines tend to mass up on team res while unable to support the team with player res. I think the solution here is to allow commander to change team res into player res. Team res is always really scarce since it takes rt 80 sec to pay for it self, this however allows marine teams who manage to hold many rt's to use that res advantage into med/ammo/weapons instead of just tech. This will also allow games that marines are clearly winning to end faster.
I think the main problem with early shotgun is that marines are able to buy them 2 times with relative ease early game. The problem here lies in the marine starting res, I think it should be lowered to 15(maybe 20) res so they will only be able to afford 1 shotgun when its researched. If marines are able to afford more shotguns later then they deserve it since they have enough res. IF they lose their early investment then they won't be able to use it in important pushes or in as much high tech equipment later in the game. This may not be needed though, we will see.
The key to prevent the fade spam is for marines to force aliens to use their resources and delay 2nd by picking out their rt's. IF this is done correctly marines should be able to take care of the fades that pop up with res advantage.(more weapons, more med/ammo packs = makes it really hard for fades).
I really don't like the scaling of res depending how many are on the field. I doubt many players would like the upkeep idea. I think players will be annoyed if they are forced to pay more for they weapons/lifeforms just because they were not fast enough to advance. I don't think this is the correct way to address the problem.
About the hive ideas, I would not mind if fades would cost more res on 1 hive than on 2 hive if they unlock the lifeforms. But if possible I would try to keep the alien lifeforms always cost the same res, makes it little bit simpler.
Now about the res management part, I really don't like the ability to upgrade resources towers. I have seen it in other games but never really successful. I do however agree with the issue that marines tend to mass up on team res while unable to support the team with player res. I think the solution here is to allow commander to change team res into player res. Team res is always really scarce since it takes rt 80 sec to pay for it self, this however allows marine teams who manage to hold many rt's to use that res advantage into med/ammo/weapons instead of just tech. This will also allow games that marines are clearly winning to end faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is build around NS1.
However lots of things have changed, introduction of PRes for both teams, and alien commander.
This means that in compariation to NS1, NS2 in general have ALOT more weapons and lifeforms on the field.
My suggestion mildly adresses that, it's not a hard limit, you just pay a little extra to field more of the same kind.
Starting res is not the problem, it should be the <b>same as aliens</b> to not make marines be at a large disadvantage from gamestart.
The key to prevent mass fades is to force everyone, not to be able to evolve to fade at the same time.
So untieing them from hives, and making them have increasing costs, the more you have of them.
In NS1 it was prevented by players(gorges) having to drop structures or the marine commander having to tech up(not dropping weapons).
NS2 needs something to end the spam, and lack of teamplay, PRes introduced. My suggestion does exactly that.
Lifeforms should not cost more or less depending on hive count.
Sure the upkeep res would prevent you to buy a weapon or a lifeform in certain situations, but that's the goal of it.
NS2 needs less weapons and lifeforms on the field, due to balance.
My suggestion about the upgrade on extractors does exactly what you want. I don't see how it wouldn't work?
You wan't a "Heroes of Might and Magic - Marketplace" instead? Nah? Make it simple.
<!--quoteo(post=1909799:date=Mar 4 2012, 09:42 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 4 2012, 09:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Proper design of the game means incentivizing these types of choices, without completely removing the possibility of a cheeky full-team shotgun rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All my suggestion does, is to make these types of choices a bit more expensive overall.
They will still be possible, but the whole team won't be able to instantly buy a shotgun if the commander instantly researches them at gamestart.
And the whole team can't go lerk as soon as they all hit the 30res mark.
The whole team won't be able to go fade once they hit the 50 res mark.
All these things would be the results of my suggestion.
They will still be possible, but the whole team won't be able to instantly buy a shotgun if the commander instantly researches them at gamestart.
And the whole team can't go lerk as soon as they all hit the 30res mark.
The whole team won't be able to go fade once they hit the 50 res mark.
All these things would be the results of my suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but they should be able to do those things
It should be (by the game's design) a bad idea to do them, like making an army that's entirely broodlords in starcraft 2. It should be relatively easy to stop (like I mentioned, the lerk and shotgun are supposed to be mortal enemies, but the lerk is so bad right now that it doesn't happen).
If you take away players' options like this because they're hard to stop, you're basically shoving the game's real problems under the rug
It should be (by the game's design) a bad idea to do them, like making an army that's entirely broodlords in starcraft 2. It should be relatively easy to stop (like I mentioned, the lerk and shotgun are supposed to be mortal enemies, but the lerk is so bad right now that it doesn't happen).
If you take away players' options like this because they're hard to stop, you're basically shoving the game's real problems under the rug<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even in NS1, the most reliable way to win a game was to mass fades with a gorge and maybe a lerk or an onos.
The same is evident in NS2, however, it is too easy for the aliens to do, as they can easily afford it as soon as the second hive is up.
In NS1, the mass fades were delayed by recapping, dropping hives, etc. Players had to use their "Personal res" to drop buildings.
The marine commander had to use resources to tech up, he couldn't afford to give everyone a shotgun all the time.
In NS2, the resources have been split, which causes the problems I've stated.
My suggestion is a soft limit that ecourages diverse strategies, instead of the spamming the PRes system introduced.
It's a soft limit to the swarm of fades and teams of shotguns.
So instead of shotguns being researched and everyone grabs them right away, you might have some saving their res and protect the other shotguns with a rifle, or even just saving up to afford the shotgun if they feel that is what they need in the current situation.
Same goes for fades, as soon as players hit 50 res they won't be able to just mass fades and win the game. The number of fades will increase steadily over time, if the fades stay alive.
And at best, what you've achieved is an overall price hike on all weapons.
For a decent amount of the game, when you only have one or two weapons researched, you've achieved an even bigger price hike and a rush to buy the weapon first so you don't have to pay much for it.
It does nothing but make it harder for players to have fun.
As a game designer you would like to have a parameter that tell which percentage of the team can get something at some point in the game, like "in a typical game 50% of the team can fade around second hive". With the current system you can't really do something like that.
The main problem with swalk solution is that it breaks the "this stuff cost x" because the price changes with the circumstances. I wonder if there is not a alternative system that would allow to keep a constant price...
why not just bring back marine dependency on same thing??
else, you will just encourage a singular, <b>HEAVILY FORTIFIED base </b>with a few resource points captured. (read: <u>turtling</u>)
some threads and points explaining in more detail this change:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116809&view=findpost&p=1909759" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1909759</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116809&view=findpost&p=1909960" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1909960</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116392&st=0&p=1903206&#entry1903206" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1903206</a>
(the last one is pages, but if you skip the last few posts of mine you might catch some summaries, or if you have a lot of spare time read it all :) )
Of course putting hard limits is a bad idea, but nobody is proposing that.
We already had this discussion, if I remember correctly one of the conclusions was that there is two choices 1) strong but scarcer lifeforms or 2) weaker and "every get's one" lifeforms.
An argument for 1) was that it make lifeforms (and weapons) more desirable to the players, because they are stronger and scarcer, while 2) make them slightly cheap. Another one is that it center the game around it's core, skulk vs rifle.
A problem with 1) is that you have inequality in the team since not everybody get (immediately) a weapon, in ns1 it was the comm who decided on marine side, in swalk system it's first served.
We already had this discussion, if I remember correctly one of the conclusions was that there is two choices 1) strong but scarcer lifeforms or 2) weaker and "every get's one" lifeforms.
An argument for 1) was that it make lifeforms (and weapons) more desirable to the players, because they are stronger and scarcer, while 2) make them slightly cheap. Another one is that it center the game around it's core, skulk vs rifle.
A problem with 1) is that you have inequality in the team since not everybody get (immediately) a weapon, in ns1 it was the comm who decided on marine side, in swalk system it's first served.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
swalk's solution is no different, it's still only targeting the symptom of the problem. I think you're oversimplifying the issue. If everyone on the team has 50 res, the best course of action shouldn't be for all of them to go Fade. That's strategically very boring, and it's a problem if that's what alien gameplay boils down to. The other lifeforms aren't just consolation prizes for when you're too poor to get the strongest one. If you think about it, the "real" value of a lifeform varies depending on how important their role is to the team at that moment. Having one or two Fades on your team is very important, after that maybe you're better off building some stuff as a Gorge or supporting as a Lerk.
why not just bring back marine dependency on same thing??
else, you will just encourage a singular, <b>HEAVILY FORTIFIED base </b>with a few resource points captured. (read: <u>turtling</u>)
some threads and points explaining in more detail this change:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116809&view=findpost&p=1909759" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1909759</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116809&view=findpost&p=1909960" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1909960</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116392&st=0&p=1903206&#entry1903206" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1903206</a>
(the last one is pages, but if you skip the last few posts of mine you might catch some summaries, or if you have a lot of spare time read it all :) )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With good teamplay turtles are easily broken. Bilebomb with assist is the gamewinner.
I'm suggesting to untie lifeforms from hives, not tech.
Marine's depending on a second base didn't work very well, hence why it was removed from the game.
Aliens need fades to defend the 2nd hive against the GLs.
But they shouldn't all be able to just wait for 50 res and go fade at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=1910043:date=Mar 5 2012, 02:58 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 5 2012, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having one or two Fades on your team is very important, after that maybe you're better off building some stuff as a Gorge or supporting as a Lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My suggestion is rewarding players for this type of play, for both sides.
You save some res by evolving into a lifeform that your team needs. Or buy a weapon that your team is missing.
Decreasing the spam effect, encouraging diversity.
Marine's depending on a second base didn't work very well, hence why it was removed from the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lifeforms ARE alien's version of tech. thats what i mean by tech/lifeform. jetpacks vs fades. exosuit vs onos. its the winning mechanic fought for. even your bile bomb example is dependent upon getting that 2nd hive - there is no tech marine side that is dependent on a techpoint such as this.
secondly, it was removed from the game in Alpha stage, wasn't it? Regardless, SO MUCH has changed since then from major feature implementations to new maps to new modes (random spawns) to new resources mechanics etc etc etc. and furthermore, can you remember the reason why it was removed? i've tried.
A hard limit you hit occasionally is probably less annoying than a soft limit that you constantly have to deal with.
If everyone getting a gun or lifeform at once is problematic because it makes you win, then the gun or lifeform is overpowered.
If everyone getting ANY gun or lifeform at once is problematic because it makes you win, then guns and lifeforms in general are overpowered.
I think your problem has absolutely nothing whatosever to do with gun distribution, it's simply that if everyone gets fades before the marines get anything to kill them, or if everyone gets shotguns before the aliens get anything to kill them, then you're going to win. It's a problem with poor tech progression in general, not gun limits, and adding gun limits won't do anything to fix it.
You want to solve it? I'd suggest something like giving marines shotguns to start with, and making lerks better at fighting them. That way you have skulks sort of beating rifles, and shotguns sort of beating skulks, and lerks sort of beating shotguns. Also make GLs harder to get and flamers easier to get.
The reason for this is that both teams have some sort of good p-res funded tech to start with, which makes them generally more resistant to other p-res funded tech, lerks would continue to be effective against shotguns and flamethrowers, while shotguns and flamethrowers would help counter fades. This gives both teams plenty of time to actually get going.
The problem at the moment is that marines can get shotguns, which beat everything the aliens have at that time, and aliens can get fades, which beat everything the marines have at that time. If you give aliens something to beat shotguns at the start, and marines something to beat fades before aliens get hive 2, you can solve that problem.
The way this is handled in every RTS ever made is the stone-paper-scissor solution; you tweak the balance so that there is a viable counter to shotguns. This rewards scouting and responding to the unit composition of the enemy.
This means that if you all go shotgun, this is high risk, high reward strategy. If they're all fades, and shotties are the counter to fades, then you get a big reward; but if they're a diverse set of classes it's at best a toss up. And if they quickly transition to a unit composition that counters shotties, then you're at a big disadvantage.
With excellent "micromanagement" you gain a lot more in NS than you would in a pure RTS; but that is intentional and necessary for the game to be fun.
This is purely a symptom of shotguns and fades being a "counter to everything". Whatever the enemy does; it is never wrong to go fade or get a shotgun. The game needs more counters and more synergy.
But I have to say I do like cheesy play, all-in and such, they just need to be very risky.
^THIS and
<!--quoteo(post=1910096:date=Mar 5 2012, 08:17 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 5 2012, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem at the moment is that marines can get shotguns, which beat everything the aliens have at that time, and aliens can get fades, which beat everything the marines have at that time. If you give aliens something to beat shotguns at the start, and marines something to beat fades before aliens get hive 2, you can solve that problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^THIS.
The shotgun is overall a too good weapon for a hand full of res and the fade is too powerful against LMGs.
This stone-scissor-paper thing is important. But there should not be hard-counters. Only soft-counters you may overcome with enough skill.
eg, vs fades, maybe 1 flamer + shotties is better than pure shotties.. thats a nice 'counter' to keep in the game and it promotes teamwork
Except maybe if EVERYONE goes lerk and snipes from far away, but that seems really clunky. There should be another way.
secondly, it was removed from the game in Alpha stage, wasn't it? Regardless, SO MUCH has changed since then from major feature implementations to new maps to new modes (random spawns) to new resources mechanics etc etc etc. and furthermore, can you remember the reason why it was removed? i've tried.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The changes doesn't really have anything to do with that. Nor would they affect it very much.
It always worked well with the asymmetry of needed expansions in NS.
It forces the one side to expand, and the other side to try and prevent it. Both sides need map control.
I like the asymmetry in playstyles this brings to the two sides.
I don't see why you would want the sides to be symmetrical at this point.
Might as well go play Nuclear Dawn then.
<!--quoteo(post=1910152:date=Mar 5 2012, 03:46 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 5 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's nothing that counters mass shotgun effectively at the moment. Shotgun is too good against everything.
Except maybe if EVERYONE goes lerk and snipes from far away, but that seems really clunky. There should be another way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades(or a mix of lerk and skulks) are able to take down shotgunners.
However with 1 hive, the fades are currently unavailable.
And getting the second hive up with skulk/gorge/lerk against GL and shotgun is really hard.
However, the real problem is that it is currently too easy(way too little risk for the reward) to mass a specific class.
It always worked well with the asymmetry of needed expansions in NS.
It forces the one side to expand, and the other side to try and prevent it. Both sides need map control.
I like the asymmetry in playstyles this brings to the two sides.
I don't see why you would want the sides to be symmetrical at this point.
Might as well go play Nuclear Dawn then.
Fades(or a mix of lerk and skulks) are able to take down shotgunners.
However with 1 hive, the fades are currently unavailable.
And getting the second hive up with skulk/gorge/lerk against GL and shotgun is really hard.
However, the real problem is that it is currently too easy(way too little risk for the reward) to mass a specific class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still can't see the issue with players buy allot of shotguns at the same time or getting allot of lifeforms at the same time. If there is a issue with to many weapons at the same time the cost can be adjusted to make each weapon more important. If it's impossible to counter these map weapons then numbers need to be adjusted. I think players won't enjoy weapon limitation, why should they not be able to buy shotgun at the same cost as other? I think this is not the right solution to a problem that may not exist.
If this was the case in ns1 I would agree with you but ns2 plays differently. If we wanted to limit weapons again we could simply go back to ns1 mechanics which would work better than the suggested changes(even though players could not buy their own weapons again).
Its the same with lifeforms, the game is made with that in mind that aliens go fades when 2nd hive goes up, why should not all players be able to that managed to save 50 res?
If marines didn't manage to pressure aliens enough and keep their rts low(and force them to waste res) they deserve to fight 30 fades. Also since marines can buy more weapons they should be able to deal with the fades anyway. 2 Shotguns + welders should not have to fear a fade at all.
To make this system perfect numbers may need to be adjusted and lifeforms/weapons balanced.
This does not mean I'm not open for changes, I just don't think op's suggestions are the right way to go.
Again about the res system, I think it's better to keep it the way it is(keep it a simple as possible) and allow commander to change team res into pres when needed. However I don't mind the changes if they can be made simple and clear enough.
If this was the case in ns1 I would agree with you but ns2 plays differently. If we wanted to limit weapons again we could simply go back to ns1 mechanics which would work better than the suggested changes(even though players could not buy their own weapons again).
Its the same with lifeforms, the game is made with that in mind that aliens go fades when 2nd hive goes up, why should not all players be able to that managed to save 50 res?
If marines didn't manage to pressure aliens enough and keep their rts low(and force them to waste res) they deserve to fight 30 fades. Also since marines can buy more weapons they should be able to deal with the fades anyway. 2 Shotguns + welders should not have to fear a fade at all.
To make this system perfect numbers may need to be adjusted and lifeforms/weapons balanced.
This does not mean I'm not open for changes, I just don't think op's suggestions are the right way to go.
Again about the res system, I think it's better to keep it the way it is(keep it a simple as possible) and allow commander to change team res into pres when needed. However I don't mind the changes if they can be made simple and clear enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that instead of some units(how it was in ns1) getting a upgrade(weapon/lifeform), now every single unit on the team get it.
That creates some pretty damn unfair situations, as I have listed before.
Full teams of lerks, full teams of fades, full teams of shotguns. Are <b>easily</b> aquired.
In NS1 going a full team of lerks or a full team of shotguns, cut you down on your tech.
It doesn't in NS2, those trade-offs are non-existent. So we need another solution for NS2.
Sure, you should be able to get to a point where the whole team is equipped with a good weapon or lifeform.
The way it works now, it's just a spamfest, no strategical thought is needed. Buy weapon/evolve? Yes, do it <b>now</b>.
With the current system it never makes sense to wait or even think about it a second time.
Changing the prizes won't help, as the problem is that everyone on the team gets the lifeform/weapon <b>at the same point in the game</b>.
If you still can't see that problem, I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty sure I made it obvious.
As for my solution, it is pretty simple.
Draw the % of team having the specific lifeform/weapon in buy menus.
Draw the extra cost from that.
Something like:
Shotgun - 20 res + 2 (10% of team owns a shotgun already)
That way it's intuitive, and easy for everyone to understand.