Compared to NS1, the Marines don't seem to have the res to create outposts to extend their range, infestation blocks it too.
In NS1 the comm threw up an offensive outpost to take the fight deep into alien territory. It was usually a brilliant gamble, high risk, high reward.
The Marines don't quite have enough res to throw at such a tactic, so we just get 'safe' main base building. Leaving Marine RTs too far from base to be chewed down by the roaming skulks.
Marine power is left to a mass assault that has to get from main base to the hive and still be fit to fight. Striking out from a strong outpost would bring far more force to the front line.
Nano shield was specifically buffed for this reason, it says so right in the changelog. Commanders who don't use it have no right to complain.
Beyond that, it's all about which team is better able to maintain pressure. The team with a more successful offense has an easier job on the defense. If all the aliens can manage is a single skulk running around on RTs, it shouldn't be too hard for a single marine to prevent that with decent phase gate coverage.
<!--quoteo(post=1909884:date=Mar 4 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 4 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If all the aliens can manage is a single skulk running around on RTs, it shouldn't be too hard for a single marine to prevent that with decent phase gate coverage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In pub games, keeping a pair of PGs up is hard enough, decent PGs coverage just doesn't seem to happen.
I would love it to work like that, but I never see it.
What would be neat is if they brought back electrification. You would be able to upgrade an RT or PG with this and have it do shock damage. Trade off being you lose nano shield. or while nano shield is active it disables the shock.
<!--quoteo(post=1909886:date=Mar 4 2012, 12:43 PM:name=sam8uca)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sam8uca @ Mar 4 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In pub games, keeping a pair of PGs up is hard enough, decent PGs coverage just doesn't seem to happen.
I would love it to work like that, but I never see it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A pair of PGs is enough to cover all the RTs you need. Biggest problem with pub commanders is that they don't give orders, they just expect marines to figure out what to do and complain when it goes bad. If you want one or two people dedicated to defense you should say so, name names if you have to.
Once thing I have noticed is that when both teams have skilled players, aliens tend to dominate. Playing on the aussie servers, there are a ton of NS1 vets and there is far more tactics and less turtling.
This is on summit, but I tried a multitude of tactics that basically all failed even with a good marine team.
<b>1) standard "upgrade everything slowly" approach. </b>
- resulted in getting the rts smashed anytime we tried to expand. putting down a phase gate is fine and all, but the total cost of having two phase gates is 45 res, which includes the upgrade from the obs. Once you spent all that res you have little left over for defences. Pushing out after this is good, but again, a skilled alien team can destroy a skilled marine team very easily and because they are so quick, even if the aliens lose the battle, they just run over to the exact same spot and hit them again.
basically it ends up with you having little res to play with. Once second hive is up, it's pretty much game over. <b> 2) rush phase gates and go for map control with turrets and/or mines</b>
- works pretty good for a while, again until the second hive is up and then 1 gorge takes out a whole outpost. No amount of sentries can properly defencd against bile bomb. If there is a lerk or fade in there distracting the rines, the gorge can take out half the base before anyone has realised wtf is going on.
<b>3) as soon as the second hive is dropped, rush and take it out</b>
- this involves scanning the all the tech points everynow and again and rushing to take out the 2nd hive when you notice it is dropped. Now this can work very well, and is probably the best tactic to employ, because when 2nd hives go up the difficulty increases 10 fold. This has worked well with uncoordinated aliens, but is much more difficult when aliens are even slightly organised. First, I have noticed with good alien teams that there is always a gorge around a new hive, which is crucial in keeping it up. Second, because aliens move so fast, as soon as the word gets out that the rines are rushing, eveyone instantly drops what they are doing and runs back to the hive, often flanking the approaching marines from the rear. death ensues, and the alien counter attack often involves rushing marine base, causing significant damage or ending the game completely.
now as aliens often drop a hive as further away from the marines as possible, it's often quite a treck to get there in good time (a pg obviously helps).
<b>4) early rush to first hive</b>
This can work pretty well, but is quite boring for both sides so I tend not to use it. Again though, see my point above about a communicating alien team rushing back to save it (and having the speed to do so).
----
I am one of those commanders that spam nano shield, scan rooms for my marines + buy two obs so I have ample energy to do so (plus as a backup for beacon). I also order my marines around constantly, always giving them something to do.
Even with a skilled marine team, I find that the second hive is a massive game changer. Not only do the aliens get fades which are brutal to marines, they get bile bomb, which is currently hugely OP against structures (2 gorges each with swarm = omg).
Obviously there are other tactics out there but these are the main ones I have tried with pretty even teams (skill wise).
tl;dr aliens are OP in 199
edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1909884:date=Mar 5 2012, 01:21 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 5 2012, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beyond that, it's all about which team is better able to maintain pressure. The team with a more successful offense has an easier job on the defense. If all the aliens can manage is a single skulk running around on RTs, it shouldn't be too hard for a single marine to prevent that with decent phase gate coverage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That works great in theory, not so much in practice. keeping a second phase get defended is expensive business and needs constant watch - especially with a 2nd hive. A Few turrets do a phase gate wonders, however normally if you have that sort of res to spend it is mid-game and by then a second hive is up. Second hive means bile bomb, which if you don't look out for it can take out an outpost without you even noticing.
<!--quoteo(post=1909887:date=Mar 4 2012, 12:46 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 4 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What would be neat is if they brought back electrification. You would be able to upgrade an RT or PG with this and have it do shock damage. Trade off being you lose nano shield. or while nano shield is active it disables the shock.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's a neat idea, but I think the reason they have nanoshield is it's a more fair version of electrify
it has the same effect in the game, but ONLY if the marines move to the nano'd structure and defend it (whereas before it's another way to get something for nothing, which is bad for a game that wants to reward skilled play)
nobody is really making a good argument for adding more mechanics...I think the ones we have are enough already.
<!--quoteo(post=1909916:date=Mar 5 2012, 03:27 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 5 2012, 03:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that's a neat idea, but I think the reason they have nanoshield is it's a more fair version of electrify
it has the same effect in the game, but ONLY if the marines move to the nano'd structure and defend it (whereas before it's another way to get something for nothing, which is bad for a game that wants to reward skilled play)
nobody is really making a good argument for adding more mechanics...I think the ones we have are enough already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
something for nothing? elec was 30 res... pretty expensive for early game. Sure you might get one extra rt for a little while before fades, but that one rt has cost all up 40 res. It takes quite some time before you start to "profit" from that 1 rt.
<!--quoteo(post=1909847:date=Mar 4 2012, 09:53 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Mar 4 2012, 09:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It quite simple for marines to maintain map control, if they keep pressure on the alien team then the alien team is forced to play defensive. When the alien team starts to play defensive they will be unable to focus on marine rt's without losing their own rt's(which hurts alien more than marines) or simply lose the game. Also when you are pressuring the alien team it get's easier to contain them, then you can have single marine defending the rt's and recapping whats lost with ease. This is the basic marine play vs 1 hive aliens, this changes a bit when aliens manage to get a 2nd hive to early, then the marines are force into defense mode if they don't have enough tech/upgrades to deal with 2 hive alien team. This is when they are have to have phase gate in key positions and hold at least 4-5 rt's. When they can move out again they start picking of alien rt's to make it easier to take care of their 2 hives(they should not allow the 3rd hive to build, even though its near impossible to prevent that in mineshaft).
While aliens don't have res advantage marines should not have much trouble to brake through their defenses when they got all their tech up.
Simply put, both teams want to force the other team into defensive mode, they can easily pressure all their rt's that way and contain them in a smaller area, making all their bases save even without static defensive structures(saves allot of res)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
very hard to do with a skilled alien team that employs cloaking.
Their Job is to prevent the aliens from gaining hives.
The only thing "map control" the marines have to worry about is RTs which do go down and get destroyed by a single alien if they are on the far side of the map, its unfortunate but thats just the way it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1909934:date=Mar 4 2012, 03:05 PM:name=Xostean)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xostean @ Mar 4 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines are not about Map control.
Their Job is to prevent the aliens from gaining hives.
The only thing "map control" the marines have to worry about is RTs which do go down and get destroyed by a single alien if they are on the far side of the map, its unfortunate but thats just the way it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is true. Sorry. Care to explain?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
he doesnt have to, internet, the past page full of posts explains it for him - to include my own post. I implore you to read it and consider it again
look at the general consensus:<u> marines must prevent the 2nd hive</u> now if the teams are on such equal footing for map control, as Grissi suggests, then why don't we ever hear "<u>aliens must prevent the 2nd CC</u>"? because it does not hold any importance to tech/lifeforms which are <u><b>the method of winning</u></b> by which is accomplished through map control... <b><i>unless you are marines</i></b>. like someone posted last page, marines can have all their tech with only a few RTs. aliens are required to have multiple hives and areas secured.
This creates vast differences in the tech/resource model which leads to such game play additions/patches such as nano shielding being increased! its no wonder the added feature is relating to <i>DEFENSE</i>, its for the marines! it also creates differences in spawn locations ( you generally kill the single CC, but must kill the multiple hives. goodluck.)
this is yet another thread relating to someone noticing a MAJOR difference in the spawning/map control model between the two teams which leads to completely different mentalities and therefor strategy. i started a thread very similar to this issue here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116392&st=0&p=1903206&#entry1903206" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1903206</a>
and if you keep reading through to the end you will see the summary of my point, that just like how Flayra has always mentioned that the issue with NS1 was that the resource model was not equal between teams (this is why he created the alien commander) the tech/lifeform granting mechanics(winning mechanics) are achieved through different means that are not symmetrical!<b><u> Marines require RTs over a period of time - Aliens require Hives.</u></b> This keeps Marines in said defense/area denial mentality and strategy....evidenced by Scardybob, a playtester mind you, who previously listed the strategical reasons behind a marine comm not bothering with another CC/base. It is my opinion that this difference in strategy <b>lends </b>to the 60% win rate of aliens.
The OP just noticed this radical difference between the two teams , <i><b>which can be hard sometimes considering they have balanced and created features around it/to accommodate the lack of symmetry!</b></i>
The mechanics required to win, (read: get tech) are all encompassing, from macro as RTs to micro as individual reflexes - they all contribute to gaining tech and are equal/symmetric (powernodes vs cysts, mobility vs pg, etc) - <u>except for the difference in techpoints not being tied to anything for marines.</u>
the more of RTs you have, the harder it is to have control over them.. thats how the game works
if it was easy to maintain map control as marines then you'll have aliens posting a thread about how easy it is for marines to maintain map control lol
I don't see a problem in this asymmetry. The marines need map control in two ways: For RTs and to hold down hive positions. Without enough RTs, it doesn't matter how much tech you got. You will slowly lose the rest of your RTs and than you will be overwhelmed, because the marines can't afford your precious tech with their p_res.
There is no need to make it symmetrical. The marines need map control even without the need to build a second CC for teching.
It's a common mistake to believe that marines must deny the 2nd hive.
A good alien team shouldn't lose their 2nd hive. A good marine team can still win this game. The problem is, an overwhelming majority of players are new. They don't understand how to fight fades. Most comms don't understand they need armor 2 and shotguns when fades hit (or they automatically lose).
Back in 197/198, in higher skilled games, marines were still winning games where aliens got their second hive up. As the pub players skill improves, they'll stop complaining about fades and realize how to kill them.
It is hive 3 that usually wins the game for aliens against a skilled marine team.
<!--quoteo(post=1910216:date=Mar 5 2012, 02:05 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Mar 5 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wait guys when marines get their tec 3 equiptment then all problems will solved :) Go goo HEAVIES !!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the problem proposed here is that Marines <i>won't</i> be getting Tier 3 equipment due to resource issues.
Not that I agree with it. I think that any team that values map control can always push for early PGs. A reliable network does wonders for reinforcement times and map presence.
<!--quoteo(post=1910206:date=Mar 5 2012, 03:33 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 5 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a common mistake to believe that marines must deny the 2nd hive.
A good alien team shouldn't lose their 2nd hive. A good marine team can still win this game. The problem is, an overwhelming majority of players are new. They don't understand how to fight fades. Most comms don't understand they need armor 2 and shotguns when fades hit (or they automatically lose).
Back in 197/198, in higher skilled games, marines were still winning games where aliens got their second hive up. As the pub players skill improves, they'll stop complaining about fades and realize how to kill them.
It is hive 3 that usually wins the game for aliens against a skilled marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This and my earlier topic. It should not be to easy for marines to maintain map control, its in a good place at the moment. If marines are playing well they will be able to pressure aliens enough to keep the map control with ease.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910157:date=Mar 5 2012, 07:09 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 5 2012, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see a problem in this asymmetry. The marines need map control in two ways: For RTs and to hold down hive positions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there are a whole host of issues that arise from this asymmetry, that's my whole point and the point of the OP? marines need map control in two ways just as aliens, and the differentiating factor of needing to deny a hive or secure a hive would not matter if it wasn't tied to tech. but it is. observe two points:
<ul><li>the aliens don't ever have a forward means of preventing marine tech from developing OTHER THAN RT DENIAL. and even then this just slows it down. unlike aliens.</li><li>for winning tech/lifeforms, map control is encompassing of RT and techpoints but for marines its just RT, so for this reason the only base required to establish your team on equal footing tech wise with your enemy (armor 2 vs fade etc) is the singular base you start with - as opposed to aliens. <u>This is called turtling</u> - which they have attempted to implement extremes to counter it!! (ridiculous bile bomb stats and low CC hp) The reasons why scardybob listed previously as to why marine comms dont build 2nd bases just supports this lack of importance and difference in resource model.</li></ul>
the lack of symmetry in this model is causing, and will continue to cause issues. from multiple spawn points vs singular (hives vs 1 cc), to turtling, to a permanent defensive strategy, to mobility/security on a map hindered for rines, to less res spent on forward positions for rines etc etc etc. so much has been balanced around a major flaw. Flayra made major changes such as the alien comm to ensure symmetry with the resource model (did you know harvesters and RTs collect the same res?) but overlooked the consequences of removing tech tied to techpoints for marines.
yes micro factors like good players will change any of these situations, just like lowering CC hp and implementing excessive bile bombing will, all i'm stating is there is a grave, founding difference in the model that leads to difference in map control and strategy for the marines which leads to someone down the line noticing a byproduct, as this OP did.
p.s. was the phasegate even implemented when techpoints were removed for rines?
<!--quoteo(post=1909887:date=Mar 4 2012, 12:46 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 4 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What would be neat is if they brought back electrification. You would be able to upgrade an RT or PG with this and have it do shock damage. Trade off being you lose nano shield. or while nano shield is active it disables the shock.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be neat, but the aliens should have something similar like a poison cloud causing some damage to those who are close enough.
if aliens get two hives its GG aliens will win. There is a massive jump from 1-2 hives, its too great. 7 or 8 mins into the game if marines havent located and desotroyed 2nd hive its over.
If marines stop that 2nd hive GG marines will win.
I understand your point, but I don't agree that it is a problem. Yes, Aliens have to expand to get their upgrades, marines not. But both have to expand to get RTs and with that enough res to buy upgrades. If marines are turtling from start, they won't ever get enough res to tech up, until the onos is coming. Stalemates are not a problem anymore. They only happen now, if the aliens can't learn, that they have to play together to get the base down. (This may change later with Tier3 marine tech, but is not a problem now.)
The main purpose of the marines is to hold many RTs in order to tech faster than the aliens. Therefor, they need map control. The main purpose of the aliens is to gather hive positions to get their upgrades faster than the marines. Therefor, they need map control too.
Additionally both teams want to harass the other one. Aliens attack the marine base and chewing RTs. The rines try to secure hive positions.
The RTs are not really a problem for the aliens now.
<!--quoteo(post=1910230:date=Mar 5 2012, 04:33 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 5 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there are a whole host of issues that arise from this asymmetry, that's my whole point and the point of the OP? marines need map control in two ways just as aliens, and the differentiating factor of needing to deny a hive or secure a hive would not matter if it wasn't tied to tech. but it is. observe two points:
<ul><li>the aliens don't ever have a forward means of preventing marine tech from developing OTHER THAN RT DENIAL. and even then this just slows it down. unlike aliens.</li><li>for winning tech/lifeforms, map control is encompassing of RT and techpoints but for marines its just RT, so for this reason the only base required to establish your team on equal footing tech wise with your enemy (armor 2 vs fade etc) is the singular base you start with - as opposed to aliens. <u>This is called turtling</u> - which they have attempted to implement extremes to counter it!! (ridiculous bile bomb stats and low CC hp) The reasons why scardybob listed previously as to why marine comms dont build 2nd bases just supports this lack of importance and difference in resource model.</li></ul>
the lack of symmetry in this model is causing, and will continue to cause issues. from multiple spawn points vs singular (hives vs 1 cc), to turtling, to a permanent defensive strategy, to mobility/security on a map hindered for rines, to less res spent on forward positions for rines etc etc etc. so much has been balanced around a major flaw. Flayra made major changes such as the alien comm to ensure symmetry with the resource model (did you know harvesters and RTs collect the same res?) but overlooked the consequences of removing tech tied to techpoints for marines.
yes micro factors like good players will change any of these situations, just like lowering CC hp and implementing excessive bile bombing will, all i'm stating is there is a grave, founding difference in the model that leads to difference in map control and strategy for the marines which leads to someone down the line noticing a byproduct, as this OP did.
p.s. was the phasegate even implemented when techpoints were removed for rines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, having hte game as it is right now with marines trying to hold down alive hive 2 while slowly teching up, and aliens trying to get up hive 2 while holding down marine res is a good game in itself.
its kinda like a 'seige' map where the longer you drag the game the more chance the marines win... and the quicker you get hive2 up (and hold it) the more chance aliens wins, etc..
I think there was a small change that effected Marine and Alien game play drastically. The implementation of Pres and the ability to buy your own guns really through off things. There is no longer a trade off for the comm on "Do i upgrade that AA or Drop shotties", "Do i Save for a heavy train or upgrade armor 3", instead he can focus on upgrading everything which frees him/her a great deal and has your marines (that cant do anything useful with their res except for selfish reasons) running around as giant res piggy banks.
Is it cool and modern to buy your own weapons and utility items? Yes. But do i think this is a major reason the game is suffering right now? Yes.
Aliens had res management throughout NS1 and developed a couple strats to help this along (hive gorge, rt fade, chamber gorge, lerk, fade), but that was also tied to their expansion and tech. Not separate.
Aliens are suffering from this as well. What is there really to do with your res now? Alien khomm has the big stuff. You have nothing better to do than save for the next lifeform. No trade off, no strat. It is playing more like combat now than ever. Sure you have RTs to help res along but it is like combat where a comm is deciding your upgrades. The gorge is the only Pres dump and even he isnt fun yet to play.
I really, truly think this is what is hurting game play, but how do you fix it? No idea.
I think RisingSun has a good point. We're a bit too far in to just dump Personal Resources as a model, and I don't think UWE wants to do anything of the sort, but I do feel like they need to look over adding in some tactical choice to Pres expenditure.
Removing weapon pick-up might be a good start for Frontiersman.
<!--quoteo(post=1910410:date=Mar 6 2012, 02:44 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Mar 6 2012, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if aliens get two hives its GG aliens will win. There is a massive jump from 1-2 hives, its too great. 7 or 8 mins into the game if marines havent located and desotroyed 2nd hive its over.
If marines stop that 2nd hive GG marines will win.
Theres no need for 3rd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is 100% incorrect.
When people get better, fades aren't that bad. You have to understand that the fade can kill you 5 times, but if you get him on that 6th life then you are still winning the game. Once you kill the initial rush of 2-4 fades (not hard with shotguns + armor 2), then you have a timing window in which to punish aliens. Aliens will typically have 3-5 RTs and you can push with shotguns to wipe out 2-3 of them rather easily. This will hinder fade production until you can get more upgrades, phase gates, and turrets to fortify areas. Then marines either have to push a hive before the second round of fades come or turtle and deny the third hive. Either one works, if you have teamwork.
<!--quoteo(post=1910206:date=Mar 5 2012, 08:33 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 5 2012, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a common mistake to believe that marines must deny the 2nd hive.
A good alien team shouldn't lose their 2nd hive. A good marine team can still win this game. The problem is, an overwhelming majority of players are new. They don't understand how to fight fades. Most comms don't understand they need armor 2 and shotguns when fades hit (or they automatically lose).
Back in 197/198, in higher skilled games, marines were still winning games where aliens got their second hive up. As the pub players skill improves, they'll stop complaining about fades and realize how to kill them.
It is hive 3 that usually wins the game for aliens against a skilled marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree. A good fade can stay alive for long killing loads of marines. As someone else said, if they kill you 5 times before you kill them, you are still winning. I would actually argue it is not completely true though, as it implies they are winning if the fade have killed 50 marines and yet never died. Sure such a fade is dangerous, but the reason it survives is because it does not take chances until it affords another fade evolve. This means that a good push from the marines might force it away, and then let them kill their objective before it returns.
I even got an example from my last game. The aliens had a major dominance over the map, and the fades were slaughtering us (and their third hive had just finished but noone went onos yet). However, I managed to rally 3 others to meet me at com lab (which we held at that time) and attack flight control hive. Using the bait tactic (with me as a nano-shielded bait) and shotguns, we managed to kill 3 fades attacking me at once while being healed by a gorge, without losing a single marine. We quickly killed the hive after that. Even if the fades had been smart and fled to heal in time, this push would have killed the hive, which i think would have been worth it even if all of us died afterwards.
So fades are not that OP, as long as rines have shotguns and are spread out, they can take out fades, and if nano-shielded, they can even take out large organised groups of them. Skulks are honestly more dangerous in this case, as they quickly can do suicide attacks and kill one rine (with purchased weapons) after another without losing too much on it, if they have the patience.
I think turrets should cost less, and I think gorges should be able to build more things. I miss being able to go gorge and build myself a little base somewhere wherever I wanted on the map :(
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1910531:date=Mar 6 2012, 09:05 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 6 2012, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is 100% incorrect.
When people get better, fades aren't that bad. You have to understand that the fade can kill you 5 times, but if you get him on that 6th life then you are still winning the game. Once you kill the initial rush of 2-4 fades (not hard with shotguns + armor 2), then you have a timing window in which to punish aliens. Aliens will typically have 3-5 RTs and you can push with shotguns to wipe out 2-3 of them rather easily. This will hinder fade production until you can get more upgrades, phase gates, and turrets to fortify areas. Then marines either have to push a hive before the second round of fades come or turtle and deny the third hive. Either one works, if you have teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While marines certainly can and have won even if the aliens get the 2nd hive up, their chances of doing so drop drastically. Basically, if the marine team is skillstacked, then no amount of higher lifeforms/better upgrades are going to save the aliens. The point being that with near evenly matched teams, 2nd hive = inevitable alien victory in 99% of games.
However, it may take till the aliens get a 3rd/4th/5th hive before they can truly end the game. Even bad marines teams are still very capable of turtling in marine start.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1910452:date=Mar 6 2012, 04:03 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Mar 6 2012, 04:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the contrary, having hte game as it is right now with marines trying to hold down alive hive 2 while slowly teching up, and aliens trying to get up hive 2 while holding down marine res is a good game in itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i didnt say it wasn't? i said it has fundamental issues that it creates and we have been patching over for many versions now. i've never stated "i like this game design more" i'm stating an obvious imbalance in design that leads to quirks. (like marines inevitably playing defense, even if its pre emptive.)
<!--quoteo(post=1910448:date=Mar 6 2012, 03:41 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 6 2012, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stalemates are not a problem anymore. They only happen now, if the aliens can't learn, that they have to play together to get the base down. (This may change later with Tier3 marine tech, but is not a problem now.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>"yes micro factors like good players will change any of these situations, just like lowering CC hp and implementing excessive bile bombing will, all i'm stating is there is a grave, founding difference in the model that leads to difference in map control and strategy for the marines which leads to someone down the line noticing a byproduct, as this OP did." </i> basically, they are not a problem as much due to the extremes implemented,<b> IN RESPONSE</b> to the issue i pointed out, which by the way RUIN competitive matches. (any 2 gorges end a game b4 beacon can be utilized? come on..) what you are saying is "the tire isn't flat anymore, see, they put a patch on it - it holds the air decently now i think" when there is still a nail underneath that patch. <b>you dont think that nail is an issue because its already been patched.</b> well it causes other issues too, so better start patching those as well - or hey.. just fix the underlying problem? hope you get my point :)
@Scardybob and Risingsun:
i comepletely agree with both your points! @rising : check out my idea and tell me what you think <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116807&view=findpost&p=1910394" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1910394</a>
Comments
In NS1 the comm threw up an offensive outpost to take the fight deep into alien territory. It was usually a brilliant gamble, high risk, high reward.
The Marines don't quite have enough res to throw at such a tactic, so we just get 'safe' main base building. Leaving Marine RTs too far from base to be chewed down by the roaming skulks.
Marine power is left to a mass assault that has to get from main base to the hive and still be fit to fight. Striking out from a strong outpost would bring far more force to the front line.
Beyond that, it's all about which team is better able to maintain pressure. The team with a more successful offense has an easier job on the defense. If all the aliens can manage is a single skulk running around on RTs, it shouldn't be too hard for a single marine to prevent that with decent phase gate coverage.
In pub games, keeping a pair of PGs up is hard enough, decent PGs coverage just doesn't seem to happen.
I would love it to work like that, but I never see it.
I would love it to work like that, but I never see it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A pair of PGs is enough to cover all the RTs you need. Biggest problem with pub commanders is that they don't give orders, they just expect marines to figure out what to do and complain when it goes bad. If you want one or two people dedicated to defense you should say so, name names if you have to.
This is on summit, but I tried a multitude of tactics that basically all failed even with a good marine team.
<b>1) standard "upgrade everything slowly" approach. </b>
- resulted in getting the rts smashed anytime we tried to expand. putting down a phase gate is fine and all, but the total cost of having two phase gates is 45 res, which includes the upgrade from the obs. Once you spent all that res you have little left over for defences. Pushing out after this is good, but again, a skilled alien team can destroy a skilled marine team very easily and because they are so quick, even if the aliens lose the battle, they just run over to the exact same spot and hit them again.
basically it ends up with you having little res to play with. Once second hive is up, it's pretty much game over.
<b>
2) rush phase gates and go for map control with turrets and/or mines</b>
- works pretty good for a while, again until the second hive is up and then 1 gorge takes out a whole outpost. No amount of sentries can properly defencd against bile bomb. If there is a lerk or fade in there distracting the rines, the gorge can take out half the base before anyone has realised wtf is going on.
<b>3) as soon as the second hive is dropped, rush and take it out</b>
- this involves scanning the all the tech points everynow and again and rushing to take out the 2nd hive when you notice it is dropped. Now this can work very well, and is probably the best tactic to employ, because when 2nd hives go up the difficulty increases 10 fold. This has worked well with uncoordinated aliens, but is much more difficult when aliens are even slightly organised. First, I have noticed with good alien teams that there is always a gorge around a new hive, which is crucial in keeping it up. Second, because aliens move so fast, as soon as the word gets out that the rines are rushing, eveyone instantly drops what they are doing and runs back to the hive, often flanking the approaching marines from the rear. death ensues, and the alien counter attack often involves rushing marine base, causing significant damage or ending the game completely.
now as aliens often drop a hive as further away from the marines as possible, it's often quite a treck to get there in good time (a pg obviously helps).
<b>4) early rush to first hive</b>
This can work pretty well, but is quite boring for both sides so I tend not to use it. Again though, see my point above about a communicating alien team rushing back to save it (and having the speed to do so).
----
I am one of those commanders that spam nano shield, scan rooms for my marines + buy two obs so I have ample energy to do so (plus as a backup for beacon). I also order my marines around constantly, always giving them something to do.
Even with a skilled marine team, I find that the second hive is a massive game changer. Not only do the aliens get fades which are brutal to marines, they get bile bomb, which is currently hugely OP against structures (2 gorges each with swarm = omg).
Obviously there are other tactics out there but these are the main ones I have tried with pretty even teams (skill wise).
tl;dr aliens are OP in 199
edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1909884:date=Mar 5 2012, 01:21 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 5 2012, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beyond that, it's all about which team is better able to maintain pressure. The team with a more successful offense has an easier job on the defense. If all the aliens can manage is a single skulk running around on RTs, it shouldn't be too hard for a single marine to prevent that with decent phase gate coverage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That works great in theory, not so much in practice. keeping a second phase get defended is expensive business and needs constant watch - especially with a 2nd hive. A Few turrets do a phase gate wonders, however normally if you have that sort of res to spend it is mid-game and by then a second hive is up. Second hive means bile bomb, which if you don't look out for it can take out an outpost without you even noticing.
that's a neat idea, but I think the reason they have nanoshield is it's a more fair version of electrify
it has the same effect in the game, but ONLY if the marines move to the nano'd structure and defend it (whereas before it's another way to get something for nothing, which is bad for a game that wants to reward skilled play)
nobody is really making a good argument for adding more mechanics...I think the ones we have are enough already.
it has the same effect in the game, but ONLY if the marines move to the nano'd structure and defend it (whereas before it's another way to get something for nothing, which is bad for a game that wants to reward skilled play)
nobody is really making a good argument for adding more mechanics...I think the ones we have are enough already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
something for nothing? elec was 30 res... pretty expensive for early game. Sure you might get one extra rt for a little while before fades, but that one rt has cost all up 40 res. It takes quite some time before you start to "profit" from that 1 rt.
This is the basic marine play vs 1 hive aliens, this changes a bit when aliens manage to get a 2nd hive to early, then the marines are force into defense mode if they don't have enough tech/upgrades to deal with 2 hive alien team. This is when they are have to have phase gate in key positions and hold at least 4-5 rt's. When they can move out again they start picking of alien rt's to make it easier to take care of their 2 hives(they should not allow the 3rd hive to build, even though its near impossible to prevent that in mineshaft).
While aliens don't have res advantage marines should not have much trouble to brake through their defenses when they got all their tech up.
Simply put, both teams want to force the other team into defensive mode, they can easily pressure all their rt's that way and contain them in a smaller area, making all their bases save even without static defensive structures(saves allot of res)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
very hard to do with a skilled alien team that employs cloaking.
Their Job is to prevent the aliens from gaining hives.
The only thing "map control" the marines have to worry about is RTs which do go down and get destroyed by a single alien if they are on the far side of the map, its unfortunate but thats just the way it is.
Their Job is to prevent the aliens from gaining hives.
The only thing "map control" the marines have to worry about is RTs which do go down and get destroyed by a single alien if they are on the far side of the map, its unfortunate but thats just the way it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is true. Sorry. Care to explain?
look at the general consensus:<u> marines must prevent the 2nd hive</u>
now if the teams are on such equal footing for map control, as Grissi suggests, then why don't we ever hear "<u>aliens must prevent the 2nd CC</u>"? because it does not hold any importance to tech/lifeforms which are <u><b>the method of winning</u></b> by which is accomplished through map control... <b><i>unless you are marines</i></b>. like someone posted last page, marines can have all their tech with only a few RTs. aliens are required to have multiple hives and areas secured.
This creates vast differences in the tech/resource model which leads to such game play additions/patches such as nano shielding being increased! its no wonder the added feature is relating to <i>DEFENSE</i>, its for the marines! it also creates differences in spawn locations ( you generally kill the single CC, but must kill the multiple hives. goodluck.)
this is yet another thread relating to someone noticing a MAJOR difference in the spawning/map control model between the two teams which leads to completely different mentalities and therefor strategy. i started a thread very similar to this issue here:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116392&st=0&p=1903206&#entry1903206" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1903206</a>
and if you keep reading through to the end you will see the summary of my point, that just like how Flayra has always mentioned that the issue with NS1 was that the resource model was not equal between teams (this is why he created the alien commander) the tech/lifeform granting mechanics(winning mechanics) are achieved through different means that are not symmetrical!<b><u> Marines require RTs over a period of time - Aliens require Hives.</u></b> This keeps Marines in said defense/area denial mentality and strategy....evidenced by Scardybob, a playtester mind you, who previously listed the strategical reasons behind a marine comm not bothering with another CC/base. It is my opinion that this difference in strategy <b>lends </b>to the 60% win rate of aliens.
The OP just noticed this radical difference between the two teams , <i><b>which can be hard sometimes considering they have balanced and created features around it/to accommodate the lack of symmetry!</b></i>
The mechanics required to win, (read: get tech) are all encompassing, from macro as RTs to micro as individual reflexes - they all contribute to gaining tech and are equal/symmetric (powernodes vs cysts, mobility vs pg, etc) - <u>except for the difference in techpoints not being tied to anything for marines.</u>
if it was easy to maintain map control as marines then you'll have aliens posting a thread about how easy it is for marines to maintain map control lol
I don't see a problem in this asymmetry. The marines need map control in two ways: For RTs and to hold down hive positions. Without enough RTs, it doesn't matter how much tech you got. You will slowly lose the rest of your RTs and than you will be overwhelmed, because the marines can't afford your precious tech with their p_res.
There is no need to make it symmetrical. The marines need map control even without the need to build a second CC for teching.
A good alien team shouldn't lose their 2nd hive. A good marine team can still win this game. The problem is, an overwhelming majority of players are new. They don't understand how to fight fades. Most comms don't understand they need armor 2 and shotguns when fades hit (or they automatically lose).
Back in 197/198, in higher skilled games, marines were still winning games where aliens got their second hive up. As the pub players skill improves, they'll stop complaining about fades and realize how to kill them.
It is hive 3 that usually wins the game for aliens against a skilled marine team.
I think the problem proposed here is that Marines <i>won't</i> be getting Tier 3 equipment due to resource issues.
Not that I agree with it. I think that any team that values map control can always push for early PGs. A reliable network does wonders for reinforcement times and map presence.
A good alien team shouldn't lose their 2nd hive. A good marine team can still win this game. The problem is, an overwhelming majority of players are new. They don't understand how to fight fades. Most comms don't understand they need armor 2 and shotguns when fades hit (or they automatically lose).
Back in 197/198, in higher skilled games, marines were still winning games where aliens got their second hive up. As the pub players skill improves, they'll stop complaining about fades and realize how to kill them.
It is hive 3 that usually wins the game for aliens against a skilled marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This and my earlier topic. It should not be to easy for marines to maintain map control, its in a good place at the moment. If marines are playing well they will be able to pressure aliens enough to keep the map control with ease.
there are a whole host of issues that arise from this asymmetry, that's my whole point and the point of the OP?
marines need map control in two ways just as aliens, and the differentiating factor of needing to deny a hive or secure a hive would not matter if it wasn't tied to tech. but it is. observe two points:
<ul><li>the aliens don't ever have a forward means of preventing marine tech from developing OTHER THAN RT DENIAL. and even then this just slows it down. unlike aliens.</li><li>for winning tech/lifeforms, map control is encompassing of RT and techpoints but for marines its just RT, so for this reason the only base required to establish your team on equal footing tech wise with your enemy (armor 2 vs fade etc) is the singular base you start with - as opposed to aliens. <u>This is called turtling</u> - which they have attempted to implement extremes to counter it!! (ridiculous bile bomb stats and low CC hp) The reasons why scardybob listed previously as to why marine comms dont build 2nd bases just supports this lack of importance and difference in resource model.</li></ul>
the lack of symmetry in this model is causing, and will continue to cause issues. from multiple spawn points vs singular (hives vs 1 cc), to turtling, to a permanent defensive strategy, to mobility/security on a map hindered for rines, to less res spent on forward positions for rines etc etc etc. so much has been balanced around a major flaw. Flayra made major changes such as the alien comm to ensure symmetry with the resource model (did you know harvesters and RTs collect the same res?) but overlooked the consequences of removing tech tied to techpoints for marines.
yes micro factors like good players will change any of these situations, just like lowering CC hp and implementing excessive bile bombing will, all i'm stating is there is a grave, founding difference in the model that leads to difference in map control and strategy for the marines which leads to someone down the line noticing a byproduct, as this OP did.
p.s. was the phasegate even implemented when techpoints were removed for rines?
That would be neat, but the aliens should have something similar like a poison cloud causing some damage to those who are close enough.
If marines stop that 2nd hive GG marines will win.
Theres no need for 3rd hive.
I understand your point, but I don't agree that it is a problem. Yes, Aliens have to expand to get their upgrades, marines not. But both have to expand to get RTs and with that enough res to buy upgrades. If marines are turtling from start, they won't ever get enough res to tech up, until the onos is coming.
Stalemates are not a problem anymore. They only happen now, if the aliens can't learn, that they have to play together to get the base down.
(This may change later with Tier3 marine tech, but is not a problem now.)
The main purpose of the marines is to hold many RTs in order to tech faster than the aliens. Therefor, they need map control.
The main purpose of the aliens is to gather hive positions to get their upgrades faster than the marines. Therefor, they need map control too.
Additionally both teams want to harass the other one. Aliens attack the marine base and chewing RTs.
The rines try to secure hive positions.
The RTs are not really a problem for the aliens now.
marines need map control in two ways just as aliens, and the differentiating factor of needing to deny a hive or secure a hive would not matter if it wasn't tied to tech. but it is. observe two points:
<ul><li>the aliens don't ever have a forward means of preventing marine tech from developing OTHER THAN RT DENIAL. and even then this just slows it down. unlike aliens.</li><li>for winning tech/lifeforms, map control is encompassing of RT and techpoints but for marines its just RT, so for this reason the only base required to establish your team on equal footing tech wise with your enemy (armor 2 vs fade etc) is the singular base you start with - as opposed to aliens. <u>This is called turtling</u> - which they have attempted to implement extremes to counter it!! (ridiculous bile bomb stats and low CC hp) The reasons why scardybob listed previously as to why marine comms dont build 2nd bases just supports this lack of importance and difference in resource model.</li></ul>
the lack of symmetry in this model is causing, and will continue to cause issues. from multiple spawn points vs singular (hives vs 1 cc), to turtling, to a permanent defensive strategy, to mobility/security on a map hindered for rines, to less res spent on forward positions for rines etc etc etc. so much has been balanced around a major flaw. Flayra made major changes such as the alien comm to ensure symmetry with the resource model (did you know harvesters and RTs collect the same res?) but overlooked the consequences of removing tech tied to techpoints for marines.
yes micro factors like good players will change any of these situations, just like lowering CC hp and implementing excessive bile bombing will, all i'm stating is there is a grave, founding difference in the model that leads to difference in map control and strategy for the marines which leads to someone down the line noticing a byproduct, as this OP did.
p.s. was the phasegate even implemented when techpoints were removed for rines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, having hte game as it is right now with marines trying to hold down alive hive 2 while slowly teching up, and aliens trying to get up hive 2 while holding down marine res is a good game in itself.
its kinda like a 'seige' map where the longer you drag the game the more chance the marines win... and the quicker you get hive2 up (and hold it) the more chance aliens wins, etc..
Is it cool and modern to buy your own weapons and utility items? Yes. But do i think this is a major reason the game is suffering right now? Yes.
Aliens had res management throughout NS1 and developed a couple strats to help this along (hive gorge, rt fade, chamber gorge, lerk, fade), but that was also tied to their expansion and tech. Not separate.
Aliens are suffering from this as well. What is there really to do with your res now? Alien khomm has the big stuff. You have nothing better to do than save for the next lifeform. No trade off, no strat. It is playing more like combat now than ever. Sure you have RTs to help res along but it is like combat where a comm is deciding your upgrades. The gorge is the only Pres dump and even he isnt fun yet to play.
I really, truly think this is what is hurting game play, but how do you fix it? No idea.
Removing weapon pick-up might be a good start for Frontiersman.
If marines stop that 2nd hive GG marines will win.
Theres no need for 3rd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is 100% incorrect.
When people get better, fades aren't that bad. You have to understand that the fade can kill you 5 times, but if you get him on that 6th life then you are still winning the game. Once you kill the initial rush of 2-4 fades (not hard with shotguns + armor 2), then you have a timing window in which to punish aliens. Aliens will typically have 3-5 RTs and you can push with shotguns to wipe out 2-3 of them rather easily. This will hinder fade production until you can get more upgrades, phase gates, and turrets to fortify areas. Then marines either have to push a hive before the second round of fades come or turtle and deny the third hive. Either one works, if you have teamwork.
A good alien team shouldn't lose their 2nd hive. A good marine team can still win this game. The problem is, an overwhelming majority of players are new. They don't understand how to fight fades. Most comms don't understand they need armor 2 and shotguns when fades hit (or they automatically lose).
Back in 197/198, in higher skilled games, marines were still winning games where aliens got their second hive up. As the pub players skill improves, they'll stop complaining about fades and realize how to kill them.
It is hive 3 that usually wins the game for aliens against a skilled marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree. A good fade can stay alive for long killing loads of marines.
As someone else said, if they kill you 5 times before you kill them, you are still winning. I would actually argue it is not completely true though, as it implies they are winning if the fade have killed 50 marines and yet never died. Sure such a fade is dangerous, but the reason it survives is because it does not take chances until it affords another fade evolve. This means that a good push from the marines might force it away, and then let them kill their objective before it returns.
I even got an example from my last game. The aliens had a major dominance over the map, and the fades were slaughtering us (and their third hive had just finished but noone went onos yet). However, I managed to rally 3 others to meet me at com lab (which we held at that time) and attack flight control hive. Using the bait tactic (with me as a nano-shielded bait) and shotguns, we managed to kill 3 fades attacking me at once while being healed by a gorge, without losing a single marine. We quickly killed the hive after that.
Even if the fades had been smart and fled to heal in time, this push would have killed the hive, which i think would have been worth it even if all of us died afterwards.
So fades are not that OP, as long as rines have shotguns and are spread out, they can take out fades, and if nano-shielded, they can even take out large organised groups of them.
Skulks are honestly more dangerous in this case, as they quickly can do suicide attacks and kill one rine (with purchased weapons) after another without losing too much on it, if they have the patience.
When people get better, fades aren't that bad. You have to understand that the fade can kill you 5 times, but if you get him on that 6th life then you are still winning the game. Once you kill the initial rush of 2-4 fades (not hard with shotguns + armor 2), then you have a timing window in which to punish aliens. Aliens will typically have 3-5 RTs and you can push with shotguns to wipe out 2-3 of them rather easily. This will hinder fade production until you can get more upgrades, phase gates, and turrets to fortify areas. Then marines either have to push a hive before the second round of fades come or turtle and deny the third hive. Either one works, if you have teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While marines certainly can and have won even if the aliens get the 2nd hive up, their chances of doing so drop drastically. Basically, if the marine team is skillstacked, then no amount of higher lifeforms/better upgrades are going to save the aliens. The point being that with near evenly matched teams, 2nd hive = inevitable alien victory in 99% of games.
However, it may take till the aliens get a 3rd/4th/5th hive before they can truly end the game. Even bad marines teams are still very capable of turtling in marine start.
i didnt say it wasn't? i said it has fundamental issues that it creates and we have been patching over for many versions now. i've never stated "i like this game design more" i'm stating an obvious imbalance in design that leads to quirks. (like marines inevitably playing defense, even if its pre emptive.)
<!--quoteo(post=1910448:date=Mar 6 2012, 03:41 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 6 2012, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stalemates are not a problem anymore. They only happen now, if the aliens can't learn, that they have to play together to get the base down.
(This may change later with Tier3 marine tech, but is not a problem now.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>"yes micro factors like good players will change any of these situations, just like lowering CC hp and implementing excessive bile bombing will, all i'm stating is there is a grave, founding difference in the model that leads to difference in map control and strategy for the marines which leads to someone down the line noticing a byproduct, as this OP did." </i>
basically, they are not a problem as much due to the extremes implemented,<b> IN RESPONSE</b> to the issue i pointed out, which by the way RUIN competitive matches. (any 2 gorges end a game b4 beacon can be utilized? come on..) what you are saying is "the tire isn't flat anymore, see, they put a patch on it - it holds the air decently now i think" when there is still a nail underneath that patch. <b>you dont think that nail is an issue because its already been patched.</b> well it causes other issues too, so better start patching those as well - or hey.. just fix the underlying problem? hope you get my point :)
@Scardybob and Risingsun:
i comepletely agree with both your points!
@rising : check out my idea and tell me what you think
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116807&view=findpost&p=1910394" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1910394</a>