Rines don't need a early game boost they just need to stick as a squad or group if it's 11v11(comms not included)
3 squads of 3 men + two defenders(+comm if needed so 3 defenders) 2 squads of 4 men + three defenders(+comm if needed so 4 defenders) 2 squads of 5 men + one defender(+comm if needed so 2 defenders) 5 squads of 2 men + one defender(+comm if needed so 2 defenders)
now i've only played 35 hours but in that time i've mostly seen little groups of people about the size of 2-4 heading out spreding their numbers thin and getting chumped on by a fade, Rines are powerful in numbers just like the Kharaa but Marines have one advantage that i've seen people use rarely, that is to build res towers really quick and move on and do lighting fast capture on other unused res points, the down side to two big groups of 5 is that you leave much of the map exposed to attack but if done right you can starve the Kharaa from res and then push into their main hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1911808:date=Mar 10 2012, 09:33 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 10 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree with this. Skulks are already HUGE and very easy targets. Once hit reg gets fixed and they die in the 10 bullets they should we wont have a problem. Saying you want to nerf skulk movement because marines cant aim... really? Come on now.
Seems like you need to play aliens a little more and see how much skulks get owned when marines CAN aim in the current patch.
and btw skulk movement will only get faster and have more air control/movement mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My good sir, do not blindly accuse others of not playing enough aliens simply because they do not share the same opinion as yourself. Skulk is the class i tend to specialize myself on and it is far too easy to kill marines whether they aim or not. I am not crying for skulks to be nerfed because i have an inflated sense of self entitlement. I simply want skulk movement (such as 198 skulk movement without the performance bias bug) that is engaging and requires as necessity some modicum of higher thought.
You are of the belief that non-celerity skulks flying around at 15-20 speed with the ability to turn around and change directions on a dime are easy targets and not fast enough! You sir, must be superhuman or have a divine gift of prophetic foresight and for that i respect you. However, do not assume we are all as supremely talented as yourself.
I baulk at the idea that more air control and speed in disregard of momentum is always (with no limit) equal to a greater opportunity for skilled movement. There is a balance between these different movement factors which creates good gameplay. NS1 had this good balance. NS2 skulks currently do not.
Food for thought: sometimes factors that limit as opposed to give create more skill differentiation as well as interesting circumstances.
<!--quoteo(post=1911854:date=Mar 10 2012, 02:06 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 10 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My good sir, do not blindly accuse others of not playing enough aliens simply because they do not share the same opinion as yourself. Skulk is the class i tend to specialize myself on and it is far too easy to kill marines whether they aim or not. I am not crying for skulks to be nerfed because i have an inflated sense of self entitlement. I simply want skulk movement (such as 198 skulk movement without the performance bias bug) that is engaging and requires as necessity some modicum of higher thought.
You are of the belief that non-celerity skulks flying around at 15-20 speed with the ability to turn around and change directions on a dime are easy targets and not fast enough! You sir, must be superhuman or have a divine gift of prophetic foresight and for that i respect you. However, do not assume we are all as supremely talented as yourself.
I baulk at the idea that more air control and speed in disregard of momentum is always (with no limit) equal to a greater opportunity for skilled movement. There is a balance between these different movement factors which creates good gameplay. NS1 had this good balance. NS2 skulks currently do not.
Food for thought: sometimes factors that limit as opposed to give create more skill differentiation as well as interesting circumstances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty words... droooooooooool.
But anyways i slightly see your point and regret the harsh accusatory tone my post took on. I too want skilled movement but this is good enough for now, but i do not see your problem with aiming at the present skulks. Is your system limited or ping bad? Im running on a pretty beefy laptop with moderate ping and find the hit reg frustrating. I see blood but no damage seems to be done when the alien is moving around. When they stand still they die as fast as i think they should. Maybe im getting false positives with hits?
But bottom line aliens are on the weak side till hive 2. So i do not like the idea of slowing down the skulk or giving them less control =)... sir.
But anyways i slightly see your point and regret the harsh accusatory tone my post took on. I too want skilled movement but this is good enough for now, but i do not see your problem with aiming at the present skulks. Is your system limited or ping bad? Im running on a pretty beefy laptop with moderate ping and <b>find the hit reg frustrating. I see blood but no damage seems to be done when the alien is moving around. When they stand still they die as fast as i think they should. Maybe im getting false positives with hits? </b> But bottom line aliens are on the weak side till hive 2. So i do not like the idea of slowing down the skulk or giving them less control =)... sir.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i find if skulks run in a straight line head on (very rarely) they die a lot faster aswell, but if thay zig-zag most hits won't register
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1911768:date=Mar 9 2012, 09:15 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 9 2012, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you lose control over your phase gate exit, you should lose your phase gate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except that this is one of the things that's causing the higher marine skill floor (its very unforgiving towards new players and comms). I'm a fan of bring back a form of telefragging or telepush/stun for both the PG and IP, since this issue happens for both.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
hey what about what i suggest here: ? <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116883&view=findpost&p=1911914" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1911914</a> Allow research to beacon to a singular PG? would have plenty of tradeoffs and solve these issues!
<!--quoteo(post=1911938:date=Mar 10 2012, 11:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 10 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hey what about what i suggest here: ? <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116883&view=findpost&p=1911914" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1911914</a> Allow research to beacon to a singular PG? would have plenty of tradeoffs and solve these issues!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand why a "lonely PG" needs any more defensive abilities. If you build a single PG somewhere and you don't protect it, it deserves to go down. I can see some other problems with this also, like the marine team building a PG somewhere near the alien base and using beacon to get everyone in instantly. Even if the attack fails they are going to pull most of the aliens back to the hive and they still have enough energy to beacon everyone back to their own base if needed.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1911951:date=Mar 10 2012, 02:53 PM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Mar 10 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand why a "lonely PG" needs any more defensive abilities. If you build a single PG somewhere and you don't protect it, it deserves to go down. I can see some other problems with this also, like the marine team building a PG somewhere near the alien base and using beacon to get everyone in instantly. Even if the attack fails they are going to pull most of the aliens back to the hive and they still have enough energy to beacon everyone back to their own base if needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> read the whole thread or at least my posts to answer your claim of "it deserves to go down" - as i dont wish to derail this thread. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116883&view=findpost&p=1911126" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1911126</a> <b>but your points are moot: </b> <ul><li> If a PG is somehwere near the alien base how would this be different with an upgradeable beacon? everyone phases through anyways, you would be wasting your beacon for very little gain while leaving your base vulnerable w/o beacon available.<b> its also already occurring,</b> as currently the comm beacons everyone and then they go through the PG</li><li>Also, what makes you think if they fail they would have enough energy to beacon everyone back to their own base? i almost never am able to beacon again right after i've done it. </li><li>Also, even if it were somehow possible, "attack fails" means they are either dead (cant beacon them) or they are in base and therefore able to just phase through again <b>so you wouldnt ever beacon anyways??</b> </li><li> unless of course you couldnt phase through because there was a singular fade on the other side swiping, destroying that PG... and this is where beaconing to that PG would become useful, allowing your rines to contest it's destruction. - at the cost of research, energy, and base vulnerability.</li></ul> continue the convo in that thread please. /derailing
Personally I find early game to be rather balanced and mid game favoring aliens. If aliens have one good fade who can easily hold the attention of half the marine team the rest of the alien team is free to win the game.
Marines have an EXCELLENT early game. Shotguns, turrets and mine lock down aliens very early.
The majority of games I will see mines come out at the 2-5 minute mark. Considering you get 3 for one purchase, they make an amazing defense against skulks.
I would go so far as to say marines are almost too good early game. A competent group of marines will always get the upper hand as there is very few options aliens have against an early game mine rush.
<!--quoteo(post=1911615:date=Mar 9 2012, 11:58 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Mar 9 2012, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is entirely a map issue. Some maps make it extremely easy for marines to defend their towers, others make it far too easy for aliens to constantly take them down. Similarly, some maps like mineshaft are much easier for aliens to put up a second hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think early marine play is heavily reliant on team skill level and really not a problem AT ALL. The only time a marine team falls apart is when its individual players are unable to deal with the occasional harassment from skulks. Nothing that you can blame the game for. The REAL issue is their mid and late-game, but that's largely due to exosuits and hmgs not being in yet. And yeah, maps definitely play a big role in this as well.
Also, get rid of the alien commander or give him a p.res sink. Mid - Lategame the alien commander is another onos or fade the marines have to deal with. This significantly upsets the balance of the game. (Since in NS1 you'd have at least 2 - 3 gorges who were investing p.res and wouldn't just go onos or fade easily later in the game)
But anyways i slightly see your point and regret the harsh accusatory tone my post took on. I too want skilled movement but this is good enough for now, but i do not see your problem with aiming at the present skulks. Is your system limited or ping bad? Im running on a pretty beefy laptop with moderate ping and find the hit reg frustrating. I see blood but no damage seems to be done when the alien is moving around. When they stand still they die as fast as i think they should. Maybe im getting false positives with hits?
But bottom line aliens are on the weak side till hive 2. So i do not like the idea of slowing down the skulk or giving them less control =)... sir.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless how well your aim is right now, the issue is that skulks these days can get to melee range in like 0.5 of a second
Just played a game today that showed how aliens have the upper hand when they are organized. It was 6vs5 with marines having 5 players, we were playing summit. I was the com for marines, we started in fc and i built a second ip, obs and armory first and told my team to head to lab together. So 5 guys head towards lab and then get ambushed by 5 skulks and i lose the extractor they were building before i can recycle it. I scan dc and find that thats their spawn, so i think that hopefully thats far enough away. So my team spawns and i send 1 to crevice and 4 to lab. 5 skulks again ambush my guys in lab and kill the 5 marines and i have to recycle the node. The guy in crevice builds the res, then gets killed by another skulk and i have to recycle that again. We keep trying to push lab and we manage to get the res up there after i provided shields so i tell my team to expand to sub and I sent all my guys there. By the time my guys are in sub 6 skulks rush our base, I cant beacon because i used energy on shields for my team and they take out the power node and the IPs before my team can make it back.
I think the issue really is what TimMc said. Some maps allow one side or another either too much of a defensive position or too much mobility. The issue here was skulks can move fast enough to eliminate marines before they can build things even if the aliens start a long way away. And in early game if battles are evened the aliens generally have the advantage, ie 2 skulks vs 2 marines, 3 skulks vs 3 marines etc. All the aliens have to do is keep applying pressure, working as a team, while 1 alien com can expand the base all by himself.
Of course you would only see the above happening if the aliens are organized, which they generally arn't, which is generally why people think early game feels balanced, especially when all they see is newbie alien players running at marine players from range instead of using vents and ceilings.
<!--quoteo(post=1912567:date=Mar 14 2012, 01:01 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Mar 14 2012, 01:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regardless how well your aim is right now, the issue is that skulks these days can get to melee range in like 0.5 of a second
Wall jump almost reaches leap speed levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And they can do it while following a totally unpredictable path.
I think summit is probably the only balanced map at the moment, mineshaft (which a lot of servers are running most of the time) just gives aliens a massive advantage that only a competent early marine rush can counteract.
<!--quoteo(post=1912573:date=Mar 13 2012, 03:20 PM:name=Ice30)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ice30 @ Mar 13 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course you would only see the above happening if the aliens are organized, which they generally arn't, which is generally why people think early game feels balanced, especially when all they see is newbie alien players running at marine players from range instead of using vents and ceilings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool story bro, but I think you wrote something wrong. Let me correct: Of course you would only see the above happening if the marines can't aim, which they generally can't, which is generally why people think early game feels balanced, especially when all they see is newbie marine players can't hit a single skulk.
As you see, everything is as it should be. The team with more skill in aim / teamplay wins. Just because you had the luck of playing with some less skilled players in the marine team, does not mean, they are underpowered. It's just about different skills. If your 5 marines can't kill 5 aliens, than the aliens should win. It's exactly as it should be.
<!--quoteo(post=1912595:date=Mar 14 2012, 03:51 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 14 2012, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your 5 marines can't kill 5 aliens, than the aliens should win. It's exactly as it should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, lets make lmg spread 360 degrees, rof is 999999 per second and bullets is unlimited. 5 aliens can't kill 5 marines so the marines should win. its exactly how it should be!! *eyeroll* You have obviously not played against good aliens who know how to do the 199 walljump.
<!--quoteo(post=1912602:date=Mar 13 2012, 06:24 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 13 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have obviously not played against good aliens who know how to do the 199 walljump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, maybe I haven't. But this is not important. Because of the bad hit registration. But that is not the point. I was implying, that it IS balanced because it also happens allot the other way. It's just a matter of the skill the players have. And that one story does say nothing about the balance.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@ necro
it is not balanced. i say this from a point of view playing organized matches and public play daily. Aliens have the upper hand and win the majority of the time especially when the teams are organized/evenly matched, this is for a range of reasons, one of them was pointed out by the guy you corrected, "All the aliens have to do is keep applying pressure, working as a team, while 1 alien com can expand the base all by himself." this isnt to say that there isn't ever a gorge assisting, but it also doesn't mean there always is, either. imo, it should require a gorge to "plant" the harvester that the comm drops, or some form of hand shake requirement.
so are the playtesters giving balance suggestions these days? i know there was some talk of changing it etc? it would help if the ensl / gathers contributed balance info i believe, or something equivalent that statistics arent able to provide or account for.
<!--quoteo(post=1912632:date=Mar 13 2012, 01:55 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 13 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1912632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so are the playtesters giving balance suggestions these days?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's always been a small subset of playtesters that actually have a high level understanding of the game, but they were/are ignored when it comes to balance and game changes. Of course, this is not their game, it's Flayra's. I'm sure we will end up with a great, and balanced game, it's just that it's turning out to be a bit more bumpy of a ride that some would like.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens have the upper hand and win the majority of the time especially when the teams are organized/evenly matched, this is for a range of reasons, one of them was pointed out by the guy you corrected, "All the aliens have to do is keep applying pressure, working as a team, while 1 alien com can expand the base all by himself<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this, if its 8vs8 you can pretty much have 7 skulks applying pressure and your 1 commander doing all the expanding where as in NS 1 you'd have at least 2 - 3 people playing as gorge on your average alien team. Not to mention the fact that alien comms don't have a p.res sink, so lategame that's an extra onos or fade marines have to deal with. This is a pretty huge ###### deal.
IMO the alien comm adds very little to gameplay, quite on the contrary. If they DO insist on keeping him then imo they need to: - Give alien comm p.res sink - Require more interaction between gorges and commander, i.e giving the gorge a bigger role like in NS 1 - Give alien comm more to do
This combined with better performance, hit registration and exosuits and HMGs being introduced, marines will be balanced out MUCH better
Its funny how this issue has only presented itself to long term players who don't assume the reason why they lost as marines so early is because of a bad commander \ bad team. This happened again for me today, i commed and the aliens took out all of our res nodes before we could construct them, just like the previous situation i described in a earlier post. Then i had 2 morons complaining about why there was no armor 2 when fades started rolling out. I think not only are some maps imbalanced there is also imbalance in other devices of the game.
The best way to figure these problems out is with 2 or more high level organized teams playing it out again and again in many maps. All players must be able to play their fullest with no performance issues hampering them. This is something that can be done later in the devolepment, the focus right now should be on the mechanics but not the balance. While both sides have a chance to win its balanced enough til we get closer to release.
If we have a perfect balanced build 199 yeah it would be nice, but as soon as 1 little mechanic in the game (new weapons, new upgrades, new movements etc) changes thw whole balancing restarts. That would end 20% of time for programing and 80% pure balance tests and tweeks each build, thats nonesens.
IMO major balance changes should be done with the pre version of 1.0 including the big NS2HD tournament, that the devs could push minor blance tweeks after each round.
Also alot of balance problems that are actually in the game are performance, hitreg and FPS related. If NS2 would run for all players at a min FPS rate of 60 and stable 100ticks server with the GoldSparkEngine, every thing would change and marines would be OP if you consider that 8 hits of a LMG kills a Skulk, the fact is a mag of LMG kills anything but onos if every shot is registred.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1913179:date=Mar 15 2012, 02:37 PM:name=Ice30)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ice30 @ Mar 15 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then i had 2 morons complaining about why there was no armor 2 when fades started rolling out. I think not only are some maps imbalanced there is also imbalance in other devices of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shows your team don't understand the game, and is quite a good indicator as to why they were so crap.
Again, it does not show lack of balance.
Take mineshaft, Very much an Alien biased map. Yet today my alien team suffered 2 consecutive defeats because, as I found out, I had 3 players who had never played the game before.
Of course, 2 straight wins for the marines means that MARINES ARE OP Early game, NERF!
Really, map imbalances, skill level imbalances, these all contribute. Get me 12 evenly skilled players in a server, play lots of rounds on all maps and then we can use game examples, but using games where you have no idea of the contributing factors (skill, exp, etc) as proof of game imbalances is ridiculous. Get some hard numbers, not the odd experience that proves the case..
The map itself isn't the goal to win...the techpoints are. Mineshaft got a lot of techpoints (6) and marines have to prevent aliens get a second hive, if they fail, aliens got hive. Thats the game all about right now. But i like mineshaft, the only problem with most of the maps are vents, i don't understand why there not more vents like it was in ns1
Comments
the answer you are looking for is
: MINES
problem solved
3 squads of 3 men + two defenders(+comm if needed so 3 defenders)
2 squads of 4 men + three defenders(+comm if needed so 4 defenders)
2 squads of 5 men + one defender(+comm if needed so 2 defenders)
5 squads of 2 men + one defender(+comm if needed so 2 defenders)
now i've only played 35 hours but in that time i've mostly seen little groups of people about the size of 2-4 heading out spreding their numbers thin and getting chumped on by a fade, Rines are powerful in numbers just like the Kharaa but Marines have one advantage that i've seen people use rarely, that is to build res towers really quick and move on and do lighting fast capture on other unused res points, the down side to two big groups of 5 is that you leave much of the map exposed to attack but if done right you can starve the Kharaa from res and then push into their main hive.
Seems like you need to play aliens a little more and see how much skulks get owned when marines CAN aim in the current patch.
and btw skulk movement will only get faster and have more air control/movement mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My good sir, do not blindly accuse others of not playing enough aliens simply because they do not share the same opinion as yourself. Skulk is the class i tend to specialize myself on and it is far too easy to kill marines whether they aim or not. I am not crying for skulks to be nerfed because i have an inflated sense of self entitlement. I simply want skulk movement (such as 198 skulk movement without the performance bias bug) that is engaging and requires as necessity some modicum of higher thought.
You are of the belief that non-celerity skulks flying around at 15-20 speed with the ability to turn around and change directions on a dime are easy targets and not fast enough! You sir, must be superhuman or have a divine gift of prophetic foresight and for that i respect you. However, do not assume we are all as supremely talented as yourself.
I baulk at the idea that more air control and speed in disregard of momentum is always (with no limit) equal to a greater opportunity for skilled movement. There is a balance between these different movement factors which creates good gameplay. NS1 had this good balance. NS2 skulks currently do not.
Food for thought: sometimes factors that limit as opposed to give create more skill differentiation as well as interesting circumstances.
You are of the belief that non-celerity skulks flying around at 15-20 speed with the ability to turn around and change directions on a dime are easy targets and not fast enough! You sir, must be superhuman or have a divine gift of prophetic foresight and for that i respect you. However, do not assume we are all as supremely talented as yourself.
I baulk at the idea that more air control and speed in disregard of momentum is always (with no limit) equal to a greater opportunity for skilled movement. There is a balance between these different movement factors which creates good gameplay. NS1 had this good balance. NS2 skulks currently do not.
Food for thought: sometimes factors that limit as opposed to give create more skill differentiation as well as interesting circumstances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty words... droooooooooool.
But anyways i slightly see your point and regret the harsh accusatory tone my post took on. I too want skilled movement but this is good enough for now, but i do not see your problem with aiming at the present skulks. Is your system limited or ping bad? Im running on a pretty beefy laptop with moderate ping and find the hit reg frustrating. I see blood but no damage seems to be done when the alien is moving around. When they stand still they die as fast as i think they should. Maybe im getting false positives with hits?
But bottom line aliens are on the weak side till hive 2. So i do not like the idea of slowing down the skulk or giving them less control =)... sir.
But anyways i slightly see your point and regret the harsh accusatory tone my post took on. I too want skilled movement but this is good enough for now, but i do not see your problem with aiming at the present skulks. Is your system limited or ping bad? Im running on a pretty beefy laptop with moderate ping and <b>find the hit reg frustrating. I see blood but no damage seems to be done when the alien is moving around. When they stand still they die as fast as i think they should. Maybe im getting false positives with hits?
</b>
But bottom line aliens are on the weak side till hive 2. So i do not like the idea of slowing down the skulk or giving them less control =)... sir.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i find if skulks run in a straight line head on (very rarely) they die a lot faster aswell, but if thay zig-zag most hits won't register
It works like this
1 Hive- Marines have advantage
2 Hives- Game becomes even in terms of advantage
3 Hives- Aliens have the advantage, 9/10 times resulting in a victory because of it.
Getting Mines, Shotguns, and Welders within the first 3 minutes of the game (which is possible) puts them at a big advantage early game.
Except that this is one of the things that's causing the higher marine skill floor (its very unforgiving towards new players and comms). I'm a fan of bring back a form of telefragging or telepush/stun for both the PG and IP, since this issue happens for both.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116883&view=findpost&p=1911914" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1911914</a>
Allow research to beacon to a singular PG? would have plenty of tradeoffs and solve these issues!
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116883&view=findpost&p=1911914" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1911914</a>
Allow research to beacon to a singular PG? would have plenty of tradeoffs and solve these issues!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand why a "lonely PG" needs any more defensive abilities. If you build a single PG somewhere and you don't protect it, it deserves to go down. I can see some other problems with this also, like the marine team building a PG somewhere near the alien base and using beacon to get everyone in instantly.
Even if the attack fails they are going to pull most of the aliens back to the hive and they still have enough energy to beacon everyone back to their own base if needed.
Even if the attack fails they are going to pull most of the aliens back to the hive and they still have enough energy to beacon everyone back to their own base if needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
read the whole thread or at least my posts to answer your claim of "it deserves to go down" - as i dont wish to derail this thread.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116883&view=findpost&p=1911126" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1911126</a>
<b>but your points are moot: </b>
<ul><li> If a PG is somehwere near the alien base how would this be different with an upgradeable beacon? everyone phases through anyways, you would be wasting your beacon for very little gain while leaving your base vulnerable w/o beacon available.<b> its also already occurring,</b> as currently the comm beacons everyone and then they go through the PG</li><li>Also, what makes you think if they fail they would have enough energy to beacon everyone back to their own base? i almost never am able to beacon again right after i've done it. </li><li>Also, even if it were somehow possible, "attack fails" means they are either dead (cant beacon them) or they are in base and therefore able to just phase through again <b>so you wouldnt ever beacon anyways??</b> </li><li> unless of course you couldnt phase through because there was a singular fade on the other side swiping, destroying that PG... and this is where beaconing to that PG would become useful, allowing your rines to contest it's destruction. - at the cost of research, energy, and base vulnerability.</li></ul>
continue the convo in that thread please.
/derailing
The majority of games I will see mines come out at the 2-5 minute mark. Considering you get 3 for one purchase, they make an amazing defense against skulks.
I would go so far as to say marines are almost too good early game. A competent group of marines will always get the upper hand as there is very few options aliens have against an early game mine rush.
the first smart post iv read in this thred
maps are terrible and unballenced in general -
Also, get rid of the alien commander or give him a p.res sink. Mid - Lategame the alien commander is another onos or fade the marines have to deal with. This significantly upsets the balance of the game. (Since in NS1 you'd have at least 2 - 3 gorges who were investing p.res and wouldn't just go onos or fade easily later in the game)
But anyways i slightly see your point and regret the harsh accusatory tone my post took on. I too want skilled movement but this is good enough for now, but i do not see your problem with aiming at the present skulks. Is your system limited or ping bad? Im running on a pretty beefy laptop with moderate ping and find the hit reg frustrating. I see blood but no damage seems to be done when the alien is moving around. When they stand still they die as fast as i think they should. Maybe im getting false positives with hits?
But bottom line aliens are on the weak side till hive 2. So i do not like the idea of slowing down the skulk or giving them less control =)... sir.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless how well your aim is right now, the issue is that skulks these days can get to melee range in like 0.5 of a second
Wall jump almost reaches leap speed levels.
I think the issue really is what TimMc said. Some maps allow one side or another either too much of a defensive position or too much mobility. The issue here was skulks can move fast enough to eliminate marines before they can build things even if the aliens start a long way away. And in early game if battles are evened the aliens generally have the advantage, ie 2 skulks vs 2 marines, 3 skulks vs 3 marines etc. All the aliens have to do is keep applying pressure, working as a team, while 1 alien com can expand the base all by himself.
Of course you would only see the above happening if the aliens are organized, which they generally arn't, which is generally why people think early game feels balanced, especially when all they see is newbie alien players running at marine players from range instead of using vents and ceilings.
Wall jump almost reaches leap speed levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And they can do it while following a totally unpredictable path.
Cool story bro, but I think you wrote something wrong. Let me correct: Of course you would only see the above happening if the marines can't aim, which they generally can't, which is generally why people think early game feels balanced, especially when all they see is newbie marine players can't hit a single skulk.
As you see, everything is as it should be. The team with more skill in aim / teamplay wins.
Just because you had the luck of playing with some less skilled players in the marine team, does not mean, they are underpowered. It's just about different skills. If your 5 marines can't kill 5 aliens, than the aliens should win. It's exactly as it should be.
Ok, lets make lmg spread 360 degrees, rof is 999999 per second and bullets is unlimited. 5 aliens can't kill 5 marines so the marines should win. its exactly how it should be!! *eyeroll*
You have obviously not played against good aliens who know how to do the 199 walljump.
Ok, maybe I haven't. But this is not important. Because of the bad hit registration.
But that is not the point. I was implying, that it IS balanced because it also happens allot the other way. It's just a matter of the skill the players have. And that one story does say nothing about the balance.
it is not balanced.
i say this from a point of view playing organized matches and public play daily.
Aliens have the upper hand and win the majority of the time especially when the teams are organized/evenly matched, this is for a range of reasons,
one of them was pointed out by the guy you corrected, "All the aliens have to do is keep applying pressure, working as a team, while 1 alien com can expand the base all by himself." this isnt to say that there isn't ever a gorge assisting, but it also doesn't mean there always is, either. imo, it should require a gorge to "plant" the harvester that the comm drops, or some form of hand shake requirement.
so are the playtesters giving balance suggestions these days? i know there was some talk of changing it etc? it would help if the ensl / gathers contributed balance info i believe, or something equivalent that statistics arent able to provide or account for.
There's always been a small subset of playtesters that actually have a high level understanding of the game, but they were/are ignored when it comes to balance and game changes. Of course, this is not their game, it's Flayra's. I'm sure we will end up with a great, and balanced game, it's just that it's turning out to be a bit more bumpy of a ride that some would like.
one of them was pointed out by the guy you corrected, "All the aliens have to do is keep applying pressure, working as a team, while 1 alien com can expand the base all by himself<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this, if its 8vs8 you can pretty much have 7 skulks applying pressure and your 1 commander doing all the expanding where as in NS 1 you'd have at least 2 - 3 people playing as gorge on your average alien team. Not to mention the fact that alien comms don't have a p.res sink, so lategame that's an extra onos or fade marines have to deal with. This is a pretty huge ###### deal.
IMO the alien comm adds very little to gameplay, quite on the contrary. If they DO insist on keeping him then imo they need to:
- Give alien comm p.res sink
- Require more interaction between gorges and commander, i.e giving the gorge a bigger role like in NS 1
- Give alien comm more to do
This combined with better performance, hit registration and exosuits and HMGs being introduced, marines will be balanced out MUCH better
IMO major balance changes should be done with the pre version of 1.0 including the big NS2HD tournament, that the devs could push minor blance tweeks after each round.
Also alot of balance problems that are actually in the game are performance, hitreg and FPS related.
If NS2 would run for all players at a min FPS rate of 60 and stable 100ticks server with the GoldSparkEngine, every thing would change and marines would be OP if you consider that 8 hits of a LMG kills a Skulk, the fact is a mag of LMG kills anything but onos if every shot is registred.
Shows your team don't understand the game, and is quite a good indicator as to why they were so crap.
Again, it does not show lack of balance.
Take mineshaft, Very much an Alien biased map. Yet today my alien team suffered 2 consecutive defeats because, as I found out, I had 3 players who had never played the game before.
Of course, 2 straight wins for the marines means that MARINES ARE OP Early game, NERF!
Really, map imbalances, skill level imbalances, these all contribute. Get me 12 evenly skilled players in a server, play lots of rounds on all maps and then we can use game examples, but using games where you have no idea of the contributing factors (skill, exp, etc) as proof of game imbalances is ridiculous. Get some hard numbers, not the odd experience that proves the case..
Mineshaft got a lot of techpoints (6) and marines have to prevent aliens get a second hive, if they fail, aliens got hive.
Thats the game all about right now.
But i like mineshaft, the only problem with most of the maps are vents, i don't understand why there not more vents like it was in ns1