<!--quoteo(post=1917496:date=Mar 26 2012, 02:40 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 26 2012, 02:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having vision and map control isn't important? I hope you really like sitting in your base losing, then...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> KDR doesnt necessarily equate to this. I can't believe this silly thread is still going.
<!--quoteo(post=1917514:date=Mar 25 2012, 12:06 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 25 2012, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->KDR doesnt necessarily equate to this. I can't believe this silly thread is still going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, "not necessarily", the hallmark of great argument.
<!--quoteo(post=1917514:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:06 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 25 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't believe this silly thread is still going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes it's a wonder, seeing how it got thwarted last page. But internetexplorer keeps replying to choice picks. At least the thread looks like the idea behind it - foul.
<!--quoteo(post=1917040:date=Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for figuring it out, here is what I think of people who over value KD: They go out of their way to get kills, and will sacrifice strategic advantage or disregard orders given in order to further improve their KD. Here is what you think of people who do not value KD at all: They go out of their way to get killed, and will never attempt to kill an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what I think of people who do not value KDR at all. In fact, I'm not sure what I think about them...I guess it's unfortunate that we don't see eye to eye. They're probably missing out on some useful insight that could help their gameplay. This thread isn't for people who refuse to value KDR, though, so whatever.
As for what you think of people who 'overvalue' KDR, you're entitled to that too. What does it mean to overvalue it, though? Sounds like <i>subjectivity </i>creeping into your post.
Does any of what you said refute the idea that <b>KDR is a measure of how players/teams are affecting map presence, vision and resource allocation</b>? No. So we're back to square one, where nobody has high school level reading comprehension. Excellent!
<!--quoteo(post=1917040:date=Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which one is further from the truth and more ilogical?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who cares? I'm trying to make a case for how you can use KDR to analyze parts of the game. If you disagree, but you don't know how to explain why, it's not my fault :)
<!--quoteo(post=1917593:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:42 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 25 2012, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes it's a wonder, seeing how it got thwarted last page. But internetexplorer keeps replying to choice picks. At least the thread looks like the idea behind it - foul.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show me which posts you want replies to and I'll do it. After all, you're paying me to post here and I owe you something in return.
<!--quoteo(post=1916457:date=Mar 23 2012, 01:02 PM:name=GodofThunder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Mar 23 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I aim to have the highest death's out of both teams. Usually I can stack my team's death count, and it doesnt even match mine. To measure this, I use the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b>, or <b>BOFR</b>(say it like BOFFER). My <b>BOFR</b> is usually much higher than most people when I play NS2, due to running head first into suisidal situations laughing maniacally.
I could stay back, move slowly, be tactical, only move in group's, and get a high kill to death ratio, but then my boring or fun ratio would drop drastically.
So let's view how your <b>BOFR</b> goes up or down
<b>FUN</b>
-Running in first everytime out of your team -Running into a suisidally large group's of eneimes -Using weapons or moves that are extremely weak and were designed for other purposes, to kill people -Building setup's as commander which are random, risky and if fail will guanrantee your team lose's -Laughing when you kill someone or die -Getting an insanely large death count that no one should get -Hiding in very silly or stupid spots
These are just some of the things that will make your <b>BOFR</b> go up.
<b>BORING </b>
-Staying at the back of your team, so you never have to be in the thick of the battle -Running away when things aren't going well -Only attacking when you have the advantage of a team with you -Only using the absolute best weapons and moves to kill people -Abusing other people for not doing well -Building the same setup everytime as commander -Only focusing on getting a high kill count and low death count
These are just some of the things that will make your <b>BOFR</b> go down.
So now you can measure people's abilities using the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b> to see just how good people are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I saved all my res, and went Onos very early, killed many marines but did not run away at all. Got mobbed and just kept on goring marines. Died pretty fast but had one hell of a time chasing marine's over rails. My team asked me how I died already. Replied"'Because my BOFR just went up" and laughed at all the 'lame', 'noob', 'wtf' replys.
Still got a good K/D but the point was I HAD FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know, BOFR seems like a good way to make people stop being wusses, without needing to get a high school diploma and understand KDR. All it's missing is a better acronym - BOFR doesn't exactly roll off the tongue..
<!--quoteo(post=1918381:date=Mar 27 2012, 01:54 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 27 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, BOFR seems like a good way to make people stop being wusses, without needing to get a high school diploma and understand KDR. All it's missing is a better acronym - BOFR doesn't exactly roll off the tongue..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahahahahaha good point. Ill change it to the <b>BOFA</b> ratio. BORING OR FUN AS ratio. How does that sound?
certain strategies may lead to a higher KDR but lower overall effect in game (Think of camping/defending 1-2 res nodes while letting other team take over entire map)
Similarly, other strategies may lead to a lower KDR but higher overall performance in game. (EG suiciding to force a beacon to stop an attack on your hive, or sacrificing yourself as a decoy while your team flanks the team/allowing a gorge to run away)
However, would it be arguable that if two people were following the same strategy, and one has a higher KDR, they might be more useful?
First off, why did you wait for an entire day (you were plenty active on the forum during that day) to reply to the last post? Let me guess - to prevent this poor thread sliding off the first page.
Secondly: <!--quoteo(post=1918295:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:45 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 27 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does any of what you said refute the idea that <b>KDR is a measure of how players/teams are affecting map presence, vision and resource allocation</b>? No. So we're back to square one, where nobody has high school level reading comprehension. Excellent!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're still replying to choice picks. Here's the part you needed to refer for the quote above:
<!--quoteo(post=1917040:date=Mar 24 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 24 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then your point has no merit. Are 10 kills better than 0? Yes Are 11 deaths better than 12? Yes Is 10 ping better than 50? Yes Is 50 FPS better than 30? Yes Is a score of 100 better than 99? Yes
Everybody knows these things. Doesn't mean they have a noteworthy affect on the outcome of a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1918295:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:45 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 27 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Show me which posts you want replies to and I'll do it. After all, you're paying me to post here and I owe you something in return.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I already did? Right here:
<!--quoteo(post=1917261:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:53 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 25 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're so keen on continuing to advocate your ill-conceived deathmatch mentality, go ahead and reply some of the more interesting posts, like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117168&st=180&p=1917040&#entry1917040" target="_blank">this one.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you already replied to it - well, half of it, but you tried your best, that's all that matters.
Feeling so benevolent, I'll bite the troll-bait too: How am I paying you to post here?
First off, why did you wait for an entire day (you were plenty active on the forum during that day) to reply to the last post? Let me guess - to prevent this poor thread sliding off the first page.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I have better things to do with my time than reply to posts that cause brain cancer? Take your meds, dude.
You're still replying to choice picks. Here's the part you needed to refer for the quote above:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1917040:date=Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then your point has no merit. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question" target="_blank">Are 10 kills better than 0? Yes Are 11 deaths better than 12? Yes Is 10 ping better than 50? Yes Is 50 FPS better than 30? Yes Is a score of 100 better than 99? Yes
Everybody knows these things. Doesn't mean they have a noteworthy affect on the outcome of a game.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't reply to this part originally because it's so worthless. Of course everybody knows those things. Of course that doesn't mean they have a noteworthy effect on the outcome. It doesn't mean they <b>don't</b> have a noteworthy effect on the game either, which is why it's not useful to post platitudes. Water is wet - it doesn't mean you know how to construct an argument. You don't, and neither does he. Next!
<!--quoteo(post=1918541:date=Mar 27 2012, 10:10 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 27 2012, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feeling so benevolent, I'll bite the troll-bait too: How am I paying you to post here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was sarcasm, because you're acting like I owe you something when I don't. You did it again up above where you started sperging about how I didn't reply to a specific post sooner than I did. I know you're dying to read a new post of mine, quote it and type in whatever your 6 year old brother tells you, but sometimes it's best not to hold your breath.
<!--quoteo(post=1918753:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because I have better things to do with my time than reply to posts that cause brain cancer? Take your meds, dude.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...but you're replying to it now. Like, right now. Really "dude". Get mad more.
<!--quoteo(post=1918753:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Water is wet - it doesn't mean you know how to construct an argument. You don't, and neither does he.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hahaha, ooh, oh this is really good, coming from you, why don't you check the last quote?
<!--quoteo(post=1918753:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was sarcasm, because you're acting like I owe you something when I don't. You did it again up above where you started sperging about how I didn't reply to a specific post sooner than I did. I know you're dying to read a new post of mine, quote it and type in whatever your 6 year old brother tells you, but sometimes it's best not to hold your breath.
Grats on not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I get it. I think a whole lot of people gets it, too.
You already lost, even before opening the thread. By writing "<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=117168&view=findpost&p=1914825" target="_blank">Instead of crying when people mention them</a>" under the headline.
This whole thread is a rage fueled rant derived from you getting belittled by someone in-game telling you: "so what if you got alot of kills? i'm being useful to the team!". It's obvious already at the title. Then you proceed to "<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=117168&view=findpost&p=1918295" target="_blank">trying to make a case for how you can use KDR to analyze parts of the game</a>", but since all you have is a rant, you fill it with ridiculous "information" like this:
<!--quoteo(post=1914825:date=Mar 19 2012, 04:21 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 19 2012, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->First, what do players <i>do</i>?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <ul><li>Fight things</li><li>Build things</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>I'm</i> calling water wet?
We get it. You can be useful to the team, and have a good KDR. (DERP) Now can you please let this incoherent mess die? It wants to go to page 2. It tried yesterday, but you didn't let it.
Normally, I wouldn't mind. But disguising your rant as "factual text" someone might actually think that KDR is something to strive for, in all circumstances. And it is irrefutably not.
First off, who was complaining about kill/death ratios in the first place? Just keep playing however you want, so long as your helping your team and having fun right?
<!--quoteo(post=1918753:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't reply to this part originally because it's so worthless. Of course everybody knows those things. Of course that doesn't mean they have a noteworthy effect on the outcome. It doesn't mean they <b>don't</b> have a noteworthy effect on the game either, which is why it's not useful to post platitudes. Water is wet - it doesn't mean you know how to construct an argument. You don't, and neither does he. Next!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said that you don't base every action you make on how to get more kills and less deaths, and that smart people don't either. In which case, when do you try to get more kills and less deaths? Which is why I brought up the point that yes, more kills are better than less kills, and less deaths is better than more deaths. Everybody knows this, and everybody, given the option, would choose the better of the two. But that doesn't mean anything in a game where sometimes you don't have the choice, and where sometimes you do have the choice but you still choose to die or not to kill.
On the other hand, I will choose teamwork and strategic thinking every time in every situation. And that is why KD does not matter, because if it did, you would be doing the same thing in every situation.
Protip: If it can be superseded, then it isn't that important.
<!--quoteo(post=1918769:date=Mar 28 2012, 01:23 AM:name=saltybp53)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saltybp53 @ Mar 28 2012, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, who was complaining about kill/death ratios in the first place? Just keep playing however you want, so long as your helping your team and having fun right?
Oh, and inb4lock :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Word.
<!--quoteo(post=1918769:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:23 PM:name=saltybp53)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saltybp53 @ Mar 27 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, who was complaining about kill/death ratios in the first place? Just keep playing however you want, so long as your helping your team and having fun right?
Oh, and inb4lock :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, nobody was making idiotic posts equating 'mentioning KDR' with 'being a halo kiddie.' I made it all up so I could argue with people who have rabies. Sorry everyone!
<!--quoteo(post=1918772:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:28 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, I will choose teamwork and strategic thinking every time in every situation. And that is why KD does not matter, because if it did, you would be doing the same thing in every situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why isn't it possible for KDR to matter, but for someone to not do the same thing in every situation? Please don't put words in my mouth.
Here's a simple example: a skulk starts to chase you but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you're confident in your aim, you can shoot and kill the skulk. If you're not confident in your aim, you can simply run into the phase gate. Both responses are related to 'being mindful of KDR', they're both potentially good responses. If you disregard the idea of KDR altogether, and stay to fight (missing every shot) and die, KDR matters - thinking about it allows you to see how what you did was not the best response. This isn't to say you should never fight when you aren't confident, so please don't reply saying that! Thanks!
What's important to me is that people start thinking about those types of choices, if they weren't before. If they were, then that's swell.
I don't know why people have to make this thread about<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man" target="_blank"> refuting the idea that KDR is all that matters, when I wasn't saying that in the first place</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1918767:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:20 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 27 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but since all you have is a rant, you fill it with ridiculous "information" like this:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that's called <i>explaining something</i>. I start with the basics (that, as you identified, everyone is aware of) and show how they connect with the more advanced ideas like map control, slippery slope gameplay and so on. If you don't like the first post, replying to the content of it is a great way to get my attention. You know, instead of quoting your superfriends.
If this thread is an incoherent mess, it's because a lot of you just want to see the words you type appear on the internet and you haven't actually debated something with a living creature before. It's cute!
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
I think some awards for totally missing the point should be given out here.
At no point has anyone suggested that people should change how they play to gain a better KDR, only that when people are playing the game you can (frequently) gain information about how they and their team are doing by looking at KDR. The majority of the time people who play strategically/tactically and do it well will have good KDRs.
The game is an FPS and RTS mix, but it is mostly FPS. The winning team will (if the game is balanced) almost always win.
<!--quoteo(post=1918775:date=Mar 28 2012, 01:34 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's a simple example: a skulk starts to chase you but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you're confident in your aim, you can shoot and kill the skulk. If you're not confident in your aim, you can simply run into the phase gate. Both responses are related to 'being mindful of KDR', they're both potentially good responses. If you disregard the idea of KDR altogether, and stay to fight (missing every shot) and die, KDR matters - thinking about it allows you to see how what you did was not the best response. This isn't to say you should never fight when you aren't confident, so please don't reply saying that! Thanks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly the problem. Your focus on KDR has blinded you. You only see "how to kill" or "how not to die". Heres what a strategic person is seeing.
A skulk starts chasing you, but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you go through the phase gate, the skulk will attach his meat grinder to the exit ramp and begin to rape everything that comes through. Potentially losing you a hive room, potentially losing you the game. You stop, turn and fight. With no intention of killing, but every intention of delaying that skulk. If you stand your ground and fight him, you may die sooner, allowing him to rape the phase gate. You do everything in your power to take as much of that skulks time up as possible, and you let the first marine that comes through the phase gate kill it.
That is how you should think. If you want to play NS, that is.
<!--quoteo(post=1918781:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:44 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly the problem. Your focus on KDR has blinded you. You only see "how to kill" or "how not to die". Heres what a strategic person is seeing.
A skulk starts chasing you, but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you go through the phase gate, the skulk will attach his meat grinder to the exit ramp and begin to rape everything that comes through. Potentially losing you a hive room, potentially losing you the game. You stop, turn and fight. With no intention of killing, but every intention of delaying that skulk. If you stand your ground and fight him, you may die sooner, allowing him to rape the phase gate. You do everything in your power to take as much of that skulks time up as possible, and you let the first marine that comes through the phase gate kill it.
That is how you should think. If you want to play NS, that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm quite aware of how meatgrinders and other things work. I'm not claiming those things don't exist, or that the choices you're describing aren't valid (they are, I make them when I play too). Obviously, if you can die to prevent the aliens team killing a phase gate and then charging en masse through that part of the map, it's going to be worth it. That's why a few of us agreed that 'aggregate KDR across teams' is probably more useful than the KDR of individual players...in the first couple pages when we were able to have an intelligent discussion.
The reason I posted that hypothetical was to respond to you saying "And that is why KD does not matter, because if it did, you would be doing the same thing in every situation." The point was to show an extremely simple example where someone can be considering KDR, and not do the same thing every way the situation plays out. That's all it was, and you blew it out of proportion into a debate about "how I should think." Congrats on another SICK FORUMS VICTORY, chief!
<!--quoteo(post=1918782:date=Mar 28 2012, 01:49 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm quite aware of how meatgrinders and other things work. I'm not claiming those things don't exist, or that the choices you're describing aren't valid (they are, I make them when I play too).
The reason I posted that hypothetical was to respond to you saying "And that is why KD does not matter, because if it did, you would be doing the same thing in every situation." The point was to show an extremely simple example where someone can be considering KDR, and not do the same thing every way the situation plays out. That's all it was, and you blew it out of proportion into a debate about "how I should think." Congrats on another SICK FORUMS VICTORY, chief!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But don't you see, by taking those angles into consideration, you ignore kills or deaths, and make the better choice for the team. I never meant the exact same thing as if it were bad. I meant performing the same action for the same cause. If KDR was truly important, there would be only those two choices; kill, or escape death. But it isn't important, and hence there is another option, another entire angle.
I always do the exact same thing in every situation, and that is whatever is best for the team. Sometimes it may very well be killing, and sometimes it may very well be escaping death to fight another day. But a lot of the time it can be sacrificing myself, or laying down covering fire with a flamethrower while everyone else kills things.
<!--quoteo(post=1918784:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If KDR was truly important, there would be only those two choices; kill, or escape death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1918784:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it isn't important<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still not seeing it, sorry. I don't agree with the premise or how it connects to the conclusion. Do you know what those words mean?
<!--quoteo(post=1918784:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always do the exact same thing in every situation, and that is whatever is best for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Insightful. You always know what is best for the team and you always do it? I wish I was as cool as you. Most of the time I just do whatever is best for me, because I play like a loner with my 1:0 INFINITY KDR that I got from killing one skulk before I hid in a corner. I've never thought about it your way before...pretty appealing stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1918787:date=Mar 28 2012, 02:01 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Insightful. You always know what is best for the team and you always do it? I wish I was as cool as you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I suppose that's the difference, you know how to kill and not die, I know what's best for the team.
Maybe now you can see why I made the connection between caring about KDR and playing COD/HALO.
<!--quoteo(post=1918788:date=Mar 27 2012, 08:04 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I suppose that's the difference, you know how to kill and not die, I know what's best for the team.
Maybe now you can see why I made the connection between caring about KDR and playing COD/HALO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahahahahahah
also lol you didn't reply to the part where I questioned whether your argument makes any sense
<!--quoteo(post=1918515:date=Mar 27 2012, 01:24 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 27 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As the high level design document shows, its an FPS before an RTS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's wrong.
It's mostly played from an FPS perspective but the way to win remains a strategic one. You don't win by doing FPS things, you win generally by ignoring the FPS urge to go shoot stuff and instead spending your time running around everything to go shotgun rush the hive or something.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1918781:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:44 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly the problem. Your focus on KDR has blinded you. You only see "how to kill" or "how not to die". Heres what a strategic person is seeing.
A skulk starts chasing you, but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you go through the phase gate, the skulk will attach his meat grinder to the exit ramp and begin to rape everything that comes through. Potentially losing you a hive room, potentially losing you the game. You stop, turn and fight. With no intention of killing, but every intention of delaying that skulk. If you stand your ground and fight him, you may die sooner, allowing him to rape the phase gate. You do everything in your power to take as much of that skulks time up as possible, and you let the first marine that comes through the phase gate kill it.
That is how you should think. If you want to play NS, that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are both wrong!
Best thing for the team: Kill the skulk Best thing for KDR: Kill the skulk
Doing the right thing, usually gives you a good KDR at the same time.
Comments
KDR doesnt necessarily equate to this. I can't believe this silly thread is still going.
Ah yes, "not necessarily", the hallmark of great argument.
Yes it's a wonder, seeing how it got thwarted last page. But internetexplorer keeps replying to choice picks. At least the thread looks like the idea behind it - foul.
Here is what you think of people who do not value KD at all: They go out of their way to get killed, and will never attempt to kill an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what I think of people who do not value KDR at all. In fact, I'm not sure what I think about them...I guess it's unfortunate that we don't see eye to eye. They're probably missing out on some useful insight that could help their gameplay. This thread isn't for people who refuse to value KDR, though, so whatever.
As for what you think of people who 'overvalue' KDR, you're entitled to that too. What does it mean to overvalue it, though? Sounds like <i>subjectivity </i>creeping into your post.
Does any of what you said refute the idea that <b>KDR is a measure of how players/teams are affecting map presence, vision and resource allocation</b>? No. So we're back to square one, where nobody has high school level reading comprehension. Excellent!
<!--quoteo(post=1917040:date=Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which one is further from the truth and more ilogical?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who cares? I'm trying to make a case for how you can use KDR to analyze parts of the game. If you disagree, but you don't know how to explain why, it's not my fault :)
<!--quoteo(post=1917593:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:42 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 25 2012, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes it's a wonder, seeing how it got thwarted last page. But internetexplorer keeps replying to choice picks. At least the thread looks like the idea behind it - foul.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show me which posts you want replies to and I'll do it. After all, you're paying me to post here and I owe you something in return.
I could stay back, move slowly, be tactical, only move in group's, and get a high kill to death ratio, but then my boring or fun ratio would drop drastically.
So let's view how your <b>BOFR</b> goes up or down
<b>FUN</b>
-Running in first everytime out of your team
-Running into a suisidally large group's of eneimes
-Using weapons or moves that are extremely weak and were designed for other purposes, to kill people
-Building setup's as commander which are random, risky and if fail will guanrantee your team lose's
-Laughing when you kill someone or die
-Getting an insanely large death count that no one should get
-Hiding in very silly or stupid spots
These are just some of the things that will make your <b>BOFR</b> go up.
<b>BORING </b>
-Staying at the back of your team, so you never have to be in the thick of the battle
-Running away when things aren't going well
-Only attacking when you have the advantage of a team with you
-Only using the absolute best weapons and moves to kill people
-Abusing other people for not doing well
-Building the same setup everytime as commander
-Only focusing on getting a high kill count and low death count
These are just some of the things that will make your <b>BOFR</b> go down.
So now you can measure people's abilities using the <b>BORING OR FUN RATIO</b> to see just how good people are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I saved all my res, and went Onos very early, killed many marines but did not run away at all. Got mobbed and just kept on goring marines. Died pretty fast but had one hell of a time chasing marine's over rails. My team asked me how I died already. Replied"'Because my BOFR just went up" and laughed at all the 'lame', 'noob', 'wtf' replys.
Still got a good K/D but the point was I HAD FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hahahahahaha good point. Ill change it to the <b>BOFA</b> ratio. BORING OR FUN AS ratio. How does that sound?
IM KIWI AS BRO! Hahahaha
hence both strategy and KDR is important
certain strategies may lead to a higher KDR but lower overall effect in game (Think of camping/defending 1-2 res nodes while letting other team take over entire map)
Similarly, other strategies may lead to a lower KDR but higher overall performance in game. (EG suiciding to force a beacon to stop an attack on your hive, or sacrificing yourself as a decoy while your team flanks the team/allowing a gorge to run away)
However, would it be arguable that if two people were following the same strategy, and one has a higher KDR, they might be more useful?
First off, why did you wait for an entire day (you were plenty active on the forum during that day) to reply to the last post? Let me guess - to prevent this poor thread sliding off the first page.
Secondly:
<!--quoteo(post=1918295:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:45 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 27 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does any of what you said refute the idea that <b>KDR is a measure of how players/teams are affecting map presence, vision and resource allocation</b>? No. So we're back to square one, where nobody has high school level reading comprehension. Excellent!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're still replying to choice picks. Here's the part you needed to refer for the quote above:
<!--quoteo(post=1917040:date=Mar 24 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 24 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then your point has no merit.
Are 10 kills better than 0? Yes
Are 11 deaths better than 12? Yes
Is 10 ping better than 50? Yes
Is 50 FPS better than 30? Yes
Is a score of 100 better than 99? Yes
Everybody knows these things. Doesn't mean they have a noteworthy affect on the outcome of a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1918295:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:45 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 27 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Show me which posts you want replies to and I'll do it. After all, you're paying me to post here and I owe you something in return.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already did? Right here:
<!--quoteo(post=1917261:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:53 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 25 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're so keen on continuing to advocate your ill-conceived deathmatch mentality, go ahead and reply some of the more interesting posts, like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117168&st=180&p=1917040&#entry1917040" target="_blank">this one.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you already replied to it - well, half of it, but you tried your best, that's all that matters.
Feeling so benevolent, I'll bite the troll-bait too: How am I paying you to post here?
<img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/NecropsY/GIFS/PWFRy.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
First off, why did you wait for an entire day (you were plenty active on the forum during that day) to reply to the last post? Let me guess - to prevent this poor thread sliding off the first page.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I have better things to do with my time than reply to posts that cause brain cancer? Take your meds, dude.
<!--quoteo(post=1918541:date=Mar 27 2012, 10:10 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 27 2012, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly:
You're still replying to choice picks. Here's the part you needed to refer for the quote above:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1917040:date=Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 24 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then your point has no merit.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question" target="_blank">Are 10 kills better than 0? Yes
Are 11 deaths better than 12? Yes
Is 10 ping better than 50? Yes
Is 50 FPS better than 30? Yes
Is a score of 100 better than 99? Yes
Everybody knows these things. Doesn't mean they have a noteworthy affect on the outcome of a game.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't reply to this part originally because it's so worthless. Of course everybody knows those things. Of course that doesn't mean they have a noteworthy effect on the outcome. It doesn't mean they <b>don't</b> have a noteworthy effect on the game either, which is why it's not useful to post platitudes. Water is wet - it doesn't mean you know how to construct an argument. You don't, and neither does he. Next!
<!--quoteo(post=1918541:date=Mar 27 2012, 10:10 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 27 2012, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feeling so benevolent, I'll bite the troll-bait too: How am I paying you to post here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was sarcasm, because you're acting like I owe you something when I don't. You did it again up above where you started sperging about how I didn't reply to a specific post sooner than I did. I know you're dying to read a new post of mine, quote it and type in whatever your 6 year old brother tells you, but sometimes it's best not to hold your breath.
Grats on not getting it.
...but you're replying to it now. Like, right now. Really "dude". Get mad more.
<!--quoteo(post=1918753:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Water is wet - it doesn't mean you know how to construct an argument. You don't, and neither does he.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahaha, ooh, oh this is really good, coming from you, why don't you check the last quote?
<!--quoteo(post=1918753:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 28 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was sarcasm, because you're acting like I owe you something when I don't. You did it again up above where you started sperging about how I didn't reply to a specific post sooner than I did. I know you're dying to read a new post of mine, quote it and type in whatever your 6 year old brother tells you, but sometimes it's best not to hold your breath.
Grats on not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I get it. I think a whole lot of people gets it, too.
You already lost, even before opening the thread. By writing "<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=117168&view=findpost&p=1914825" target="_blank">Instead of crying when people mention them</a>" under the headline.
This whole thread is a rage fueled rant derived from you getting belittled by someone in-game telling you: "so what if you got alot of kills? i'm being useful to the team!". It's obvious already at the title. Then you proceed to "<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=117168&view=findpost&p=1918295" target="_blank">trying to make a case for how you can use KDR to analyze parts of the game</a>", but since all you have is a rant, you fill it with ridiculous "information" like this:
<!--quoteo(post=1914825:date=Mar 19 2012, 04:21 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 19 2012, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->First, what do players <i>do</i>?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<ul><li>Fight things</li><li>Build things</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>I'm</i> calling water wet?
We get it. You can be useful to the team, and have a good KDR. (DERP) Now can you please let this incoherent mess die? It wants to go to page 2. It tried yesterday, but you didn't let it.
Normally, I wouldn't mind. But disguising your rant as "factual text" someone might actually think that KDR is something to strive for, in all circumstances. And it is irrefutably not.
Have a nice day.
Oh, and inb4lock :D
You said that you don't base every action you make on how to get more kills and less deaths, and that smart people don't either. In which case, when do you try to get more kills and less deaths? Which is why I brought up the point that yes, more kills are better than less kills, and less deaths is better than more deaths. Everybody knows this, and everybody, given the option, would choose the better of the two. But that doesn't mean anything in a game where sometimes you don't have the choice, and where sometimes you do have the choice but you still choose to die or not to kill.
On the other hand, I will choose teamwork and strategic thinking every time in every situation. And that is why KD does not matter, because if it did, you would be doing the same thing in every situation.
Protip: If it can be superseded, then it isn't that important.
Oh, and inb4lock :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Word.
Oh, and inb4lock :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, nobody was making idiotic posts equating 'mentioning KDR' with 'being a halo kiddie.' I made it all up so I could argue with people who have rabies. Sorry everyone!
<!--quoteo(post=1918772:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:28 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, I will choose teamwork and strategic thinking every time in every situation. And that is why KD does not matter, because if it did, you would be doing the same thing in every situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why isn't it possible for KDR to matter, but for someone to not do the same thing in every situation? Please don't put words in my mouth.
Here's a simple example: a skulk starts to chase you but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you're confident in your aim, you can shoot and kill the skulk. If you're not confident in your aim, you can simply run into the phase gate. Both responses are related to 'being mindful of KDR', they're both potentially good responses. If you disregard the idea of KDR altogether, and stay to fight (missing every shot) and die, KDR matters - thinking about it allows you to see how what you did was not the best response. This isn't to say you should never fight when you aren't confident, so please don't reply saying that! Thanks!
What's important to me is that people start thinking about those types of choices, if they weren't before. If they were, then that's swell.
I don't know why people have to make this thread about<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man" target="_blank"> refuting the idea that KDR is all that matters, when I wasn't saying that in the first place</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1918767:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:20 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Mar 27 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but since all you have is a rant, you fill it with ridiculous "information" like this:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that's called <i>explaining something</i>. I start with the basics (that, as you identified, everyone is aware of) and show how they connect with the more advanced ideas like map control, slippery slope gameplay and so on. If you don't like the first post, replying to the content of it is a great way to get my attention. You know, instead of quoting your superfriends.
If this thread is an incoherent mess, it's because a lot of you just want to see the words you type appear on the internet and you haven't actually debated something with a living creature before. It's cute!
At no point has anyone suggested that people should change how they play to gain a better KDR, only that when people are playing the game you can (frequently) gain information about how they and their team are doing by looking at KDR. The majority of the time people who play strategically/tactically and do it well will have good KDRs.
The game is an FPS and RTS mix, but it is mostly FPS. The winning team will (if the game is balanced) almost always win.
Exactly the problem. Your focus on KDR has blinded you. You only see "how to kill" or "how not to die". Heres what a strategic person is seeing.
A skulk starts chasing you, but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you go through the phase gate, the skulk will attach his meat grinder to the exit ramp and begin to rape everything that comes through. Potentially losing you a hive room, potentially losing you the game. You stop, turn and fight. With no intention of killing, but every intention of delaying that skulk. If you stand your ground and fight him, you may die sooner, allowing him to rape the phase gate. You do everything in your power to take as much of that skulks time up as possible, and you let the first marine that comes through the phase gate kill it.
That is how you should think. If you want to play NS, that is.
A skulk starts chasing you, but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you go through the phase gate, the skulk will attach his meat grinder to the exit ramp and begin to rape everything that comes through. Potentially losing you a hive room, potentially losing you the game. You stop, turn and fight. With no intention of killing, but every intention of delaying that skulk. If you stand your ground and fight him, you may die sooner, allowing him to rape the phase gate. You do everything in your power to take as much of that skulks time up as possible, and you let the first marine that comes through the phase gate kill it.
That is how you should think. If you want to play NS, that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm quite aware of how meatgrinders and other things work. I'm not claiming those things don't exist, or that the choices you're describing aren't valid (they are, I make them when I play too). Obviously, if you can die to prevent the aliens team killing a phase gate and then charging en masse through that part of the map, it's going to be worth it. That's why a few of us agreed that 'aggregate KDR across teams' is probably more useful than the KDR of individual players...in the first couple pages when we were able to have an intelligent discussion.
The reason I posted that hypothetical was to respond to you saying "And that is why KD does not matter, because if it did, you would be doing the same thing in every situation."
The point was to show an extremely simple example where someone can be considering KDR, and not do the same thing every way the situation plays out. That's all it was, and you blew it out of proportion into a debate about "how I should think." Congrats on another SICK FORUMS VICTORY, chief!
The reason I posted that hypothetical was to respond to you saying "And that is why KD does not matter, because if it did, you would be doing the same thing in every situation."
The point was to show an extremely simple example where someone can be considering KDR, and not do the same thing every way the situation plays out. That's all it was, and you blew it out of proportion into a debate about "how I should think." Congrats on another SICK FORUMS VICTORY, chief!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But don't you see, by taking those angles into consideration, you ignore kills or deaths, and make the better choice for the team. I never meant the exact same thing as if it were bad. I meant performing the same action for the same cause. If KDR was truly important, there would be only those two choices; kill, or escape death. But it isn't important, and hence there is another option, another entire angle.
I always do the exact same thing in every situation, and that is whatever is best for the team. Sometimes it may very well be killing, and sometimes it may very well be escaping death to fight another day. But a lot of the time it can be sacrificing myself, or laying down covering fire with a flamethrower while everyone else kills things.
<!--quoteo(post=1918784:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it isn't important<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still not seeing it, sorry. I don't agree with the premise or how it connects to the conclusion. Do you know what those words mean?
<!--quoteo(post=1918784:date=Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 27 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always do the exact same thing in every situation, and that is whatever is best for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Insightful. You always know what is best for the team and you always do it? I wish I was as cool as you. Most of the time I just do whatever is best for me, because I play like a loner with my 1:0 INFINITY KDR that I got from killing one skulk before I hid in a corner. I've never thought about it your way before...pretty appealing stuff.
Well I suppose that's the difference, you know how to kill and not die, I know what's best for the team.
Maybe now you can see why I made the connection between caring about KDR and playing COD/HALO.
Maybe now you can see why I made the connection between caring about KDR and playing COD/HALO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahahahahahah
also lol you didn't reply to the part where I questioned whether your argument makes any sense
clearly this argument can be summed up
<img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/NecropsY/GIFS/problem.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It's wrong.
It's mostly played from an FPS perspective but the way to win remains a strategic one. You don't win by doing FPS things, you win generally by ignoring the FPS urge to go shoot stuff and instead spending your time running around everything to go shotgun rush the hive or something.
A skulk starts chasing you, but a phase gate is a short distance away. If you go through the phase gate, the skulk will attach his meat grinder to the exit ramp and begin to rape everything that comes through. Potentially losing you a hive room, potentially losing you the game. You stop, turn and fight. With no intention of killing, but every intention of delaying that skulk. If you stand your ground and fight him, you may die sooner, allowing him to rape the phase gate. You do everything in your power to take as much of that skulks time up as possible, and you let the first marine that comes through the phase gate kill it.
That is how you should think. If you want to play NS, that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are both wrong!
Best thing for the team: Kill the skulk
Best thing for KDR: Kill the skulk
Doing the right thing, usually gives you a good KDR at the same time.