Current Game Chokeholds

Kama_Blue

<div class="IPBDescription">(Places where Ns2 Rounds get Stuck)</div><i>(In reference to one side or team having a clear and uneeded advantage over the other that pigeonholes the game into the same outcome every time unless certain criteria are met)
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<b>In progression from round beginning to end.</b>

<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->Round Time 1:00-3:00 Minutes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Teams spawning next to each other on the map (Not separated by at least one hive location) , if they choose to attack each other, will result in one of two things happening- <i>Skip this if they don't directly enter conflict over territory early</i>.

1). If Marines can aim, stick together and are relatively capable players. Marines either harass aliens to the point at which they can not get a firm footing in the game, or outright destroy the hive because skulks can't respond in enough force (constrictive respawn times). <!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->-This results in either a quick, or fairly drawn out Marine win, as marines slowly stomp the alien team.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

2). If marines aren't amazing at aiming or are relatively spread out, aliens harass or completely lock marines out from expanding due to superior 1v1 power. One badly timed push can leave marines camped in base dying within a minute or two of game time, or camped on 1-2 res nodes for a painful 10-20 minute game. <!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->-Usually results in marine slow loss, but due to the cumulative scaling of marine resources, win still possible if played correctly.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

-- The main issues being, respawn times screw either team over with a badly timed push as you can't sum enough allies to recover so early in the game. This initial conflict is immensely important, and literally decides how the rest of the game will play out, superceding all other skill or tactical choices.<i> (Players may put value on "Rushing" being a legitimate strategy, but if that fails, a one sided 30-40 minute game isn't really worth this loophole in balance)</i>

Possible Solutions
- Have Hives/Comm Chair temporarily increase allies spawn rates when attacked
- Temporarily increase respawn/egg spawn times for the first few minutes of a game
- Allow Alien/Marine commanders to spend resources for drastically increased spawn rates.


<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->Round Time 3:00-6:00 Minutes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The Hive Vs Shotgun race.
- Assuming one team isn't being camped in spawn at this point, the 3-6 minute mark is a complete territory war. Once again one of two things can happen.

1). Aliens manage to secure an area and get a second hive up.
If Aliens manage to get a second hive, they get fades/leap, if they get fades they can deal with shotguns and enough skulks flinging themselves at a shotgunner will eventually kill him. Fades however are absurdly more powerful than a single marine which with hit/run tactics causes serious problems. <!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->If too many alien players go fade and rush the enemy base, Aliens win because marines have no viable counter to fade speed/escape mechanics. If not too many aliens go fade, game continues.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

2). Marines get shotguns, marines buy shotguns, a single marine can now solo the entire alien team...
Fades are to marines what shotguns are to skulks. Point blank the shotgun is the most unbalanced weapon in the game. Why? Because it changes the "Line of Sight + Aim + Sucessive hits" game into a "Line of Sight + 1 Hit" game for marines <i>(Even fade needs 2 hits, and Onos 3 to kill a marine!)</i>. Shotguns kill Skulks and Lerks in one hit, Gorges in two. Meaning no matter how great a player you are on the alien team, the enemy player has at least one chance to realize you're trying to take 4 bites, and hit you in the face. <!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->-If too many marines get shotguns, they can simply deny the lower lifeforms any access to res and slowly push them into a single hive. At this point it becomes trivial for marines to retain control of areas, since a single skilled marine can handle 1-3 skulks at a time forever assuming they have medkits/ammo.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->


Possible Solutions
-Rebalance Carapace (Upgrading Carapace should increase the number of shotgun hits it takes to kill you by 1) Aka Skulk+Cara = 2 hits (it's 1 now), Fade+ Cara= 3 hits (it's 2 now), Lerk + Cara = 2 hits (1 now) ect.
-Add Viable and cheap situational counters to fade
-- <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Cryo-Goo Mines<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Aliens triggering these mines will be splattered with a quick-freezing liquid agent. Not cold enough to stop the lifeform entirely, the cold causes alien core temperatures to drastically decrease. Immensely reducing metabolism rates for 5-7 seconds. (Reduces energy regen & health regen to 0).
--- These mines would present a soft counter to fades, allowing marines to deal with players who trigger said mines by forcing them to run away on foot after expending the energy to teleport in and kill a marine. Even with shadow dash, marines would have a much easier time hitting an energy-less fade who stumbled into a trap.




[I'll add more later]

GORGEous

If you nerf shotgun more, you'll have to nerf fade.

It also already takes 3 shotgun shots to kill a carapaced fade from point blank. At 5-10m range, this can easily be 3-5 shots to down a fade. Fades are basically invulnerable 1v1. A shotgun nerf would completely wreck the little balance we have left after shadowstep was implemented.

Two shotgun shots to kill a skulk would also render the shotgun useless. A skulk gets 3 bites off much faster and easier than a shotgun hits 2 shots. If you reduced the damage down to 2 shots to kill a carapaced skulk, you would also decrease the shotgun refire rate to compensate.

Mines are worthless when fades come out.

IronHorse

^ what this man above me said.
he's SO accurate.

Kama_Blue

<!--quoteo(post=1915071:date=Mar 19 2012, 08:12 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 19 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you nerf shotgun more, you'll have to nerf fade.

It also already takes 3 shotgun shots to kill a carapaced fade from point blank. At 5-10m range, this can easily be 3-5 shots to down a fade. Fades are basically invulnerable 1v1. A shotgun nerf would completely wreck the little balance we have left after shadowstep was implemented.

Two shotgun shots to kill a skulk would also render the shotgun useless. A skulk gets 3 bites off much faster and easier than a shotgun hits 2 shots. If you reduced the damage down to 2 shots to kill a carapaced skulk, you would also decrease the shotgun refire rate to compensate.

Mines are worthless when fades come out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I appologize, my statement in the original post was not completely clear.

I feel that carapace as an upgrade should increase the amount of shotgun shots it takes to kill you by 1. AKA Cara skulk = 2 shots, Cara fade = 3, Cara lerk = 2-3. This doesn't make the base alien races more capable of dealing with the shotgun, but it does increase the value of crag hives as a starting choice (as they can allow you to compensate for enemy shotgun diplomacy as some may say)

Currently point blank i'm pretty sure i die in about two shotgun blasts, and your silly shotgun doesn't have (barely any) spread, so don't go all "WELL AT A RANGE IT'S MORE" on me.

Additionally, it's 4 bites to kill a marine, which is indeed enough time for a completely unaware marine you snuck up on to start bunnyhopping, and shoot you in the face twice.

Kama_Blue

*Accidental Quote of myself*

Techercizer

Shotgun can really only work as a 1-hit-kill on skulks in its current form. The firing delay is so long that if a skulk actually closes with you and survives your first shot, you've basically lost. I know some real good shots who can blast a skulk even while it's hopping around their chest, but most pub players can't handle that sort of split-second accuracy.

This naturally forces the Shotgun into a dangerous situation: The balancing factors that make sure a less-skilled pubber can use the Shotgun against Skulks also by necessity allow skilled marksmen to completely shut them down, to the point a kill becomes almost impossible.

Whether this is a bad thing or not is up for debate, but I can tell you one thing. It sure sucks to spend every life as a skulk hopelessly suiciding into them.

Kama_Blue

<!--quoteo(post=1915093:date=Mar 19 2012, 08:53 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Mar 19 2012, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotgun can really only work as a 1-hit-kill on skulks in its current form. The firing delay is so long that if a skulk actually closes with you and survives your first shot, you've basically lost. I know some real good shots who can blast a skulk even while it's hopping around their chest, but most pub players can't handle that sort of split-second accuracy.

This naturally forces the Shotgun into a dangerous situation: The balancing factors that make sure a less-skilled pubber can use the Shotgun against Skulks also by necessity allow skilled marksmen to completely shut them down, to the point a kill becomes almost impossible.

Whether this is a bad thing or not is up for debate, but I can tell you one thing. It sure sucks to spend every life as a skulk hopelessly suiciding into those things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think you're taking into account two players in a hallway with the skulk moving up/biting and the marine standing still.

Because if a marine starts hopping around like an idiot then i have to start hopping around like an idiot chasing him/dodging his bullets, my bites start missing and he can get 2-3 shotgun blasts off, even if he didn't get one off at me running. There's no split second accuracy there, skulks don't one shot marines, you have to get multiple consecutive hits on a single marine to kill him.

Also marines kinda move in groups (hahaha good luck killing 2 marines with shotguns)

IronHorse

<!--quoteo(post=1915082:date=Mar 19 2012, 08:44 AM:name=Kama_Blue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 19 2012, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cara fade = 3,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
like he said, you'd still have to nerf the fade as currently he takes 3 shotgun blasts to the face just fine <u>without</u> cara!
but yea i do agree with what you are saying - cara doesn't do much, currently.
my question is: are aliens in need of that much of a buff? i'd wait till after the next patch once marine speeds get patched.
(going to go check how many it actually takes to kill after all these changes)

Wheeee

i would increase the effectiveness of umbra vs light damage.