<!--quoteo(post=1917694:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 25 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol@crying about map dependency for walljump. of course it's map dependent, bunnyhop is map dependent, in fact a lot of the tricks you can do with any movement skill -depends- on your environment, what a worthless argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I dont even know how to answer the depth of the delusion in this post. Wow...
@internetexplorer, I tried Warsow and it's really well done, you watch the tutorial and in five minutes you are wall jumping and bunny hopping, really easy to pick up and you get this nice feel of freedom and interaction with your environment. The simple map geometry helps also. SC2 is not SC1 with "pretty" graphics, a lot of units and game aspects have been changed (sc1 with pretty graphics is called sc2 bw), but that's a bit out of subject :)
@fanatic, I was wondering why nobody hates on the complete air control in ns2, I find it a bit weird. Your quote was a response to me in the last thread about movement, they seem to come up periodically. I guess it takes some time for people to forget what they said 2 month earlier..
Bunny hop (some form of) is already in game, or am I crazy ? This thing of jumping repeatedly to keep velocity, how is it called ?
<!--quoteo(post=1917714:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:46 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Mar 25 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hop (some form of) is already in game, or am I crazy ? This thing of jumping repeatedly to keep velocity, how is it called ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is, but you lose speed quickly if you don't keep leaping or performing walljumps. Thanks for trying Warsow!
<!--quoteo(post=1917642:date=Mar 25 2012, 02:30 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you design NS2 around mechanics like the walljump (that have very little depth, tons of map dependency, require constant tweaking patch-to-patch)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Very little depth"
What? You're trying to make it easier, how is that going to add any depth?
<!--quoteo(post=1917742:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:08 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Very little depth"
What? You're trying to make it easier, how is that going to add any depth?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't just about trying to make it easier (although that is a nice goal). You can add depth by making the <b>end result</b> of walljumping not so simple. For instance, if it provided speed that carried over for longer without repeatedly walljumping, it could be used in conjunction with our friend bunnyhopping to create 'the full package' of skulk movement. There may be other unexplored ways of achieving this too.
There's so little variability in how a walljump is performed, and that is where the lack of depth comes from. It's a gimmicky mechanic exactly like leap and blink, except with an invisible white bar in place of energy management.
<!--quoteo(post=1917707:date=Mar 25 2012, 03:39 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 25 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every map has floors that form the distance between you and your opponents. Maps are not all designed with bordering walls/props in places that allow you to close the distance with walljumping. That you have to 'start' and 'finish' walljump sets with specific steps adds predictability in a way that cannot be avoided.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cory already addressed this is in another thread, but it doesn't just have to be walls and props, even angle changes on the floor can give you a boost, try it on a ramp or angled surface sometime. i can't think of a single map that has such a large open area with 0 angle changes and 0 props that a skulk can't attempt to perform a walljump while engaging a marine. perhaps you can't do it immediately from every and any angle, but if skulks didn't have the issue of losing all their momentum and having slow acceleration in certain situations, i think it'd be fine. i agree that it's not quite as intuitive as it should be, but even without knowing the correct way to do it i was able to get some noticeable speed boosts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for relearning things, you're half right: if the walljump mechanic in b201 was new, there would be no excuse for me needing to learn to do it. The problem is the mechanic (and its end result when performed) have been the same for months. It just becomes more irksome to pull it off whenever someone plays with the implementation, and I don't see any gain coming from that except that Skie's videos get a lot of views.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it hasn't been the same though. pre-199 skulk movement and walljump was much different. it's a process of bug squishing and refining the system so that it feels smooth, gives players a way to inuitively know that the mechanic exists and some feedback so that people know they're doing it correctly. i don't think bhop has some of those features except that it's a system that people have practiced for years, and so have become familiar with it, and the pushback against walljump refuses to acknowledge that perhaps with 10 years of practicing, walljump might have developed much of the same depth, and maybe someone will wow you with their precise timing and aim to allow them to approach from an unforeseen trajectory.
<!--quoteo(post=1917397:date=Mar 25 2012, 04:55 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would argue that at least in its current state, it's better than bunnyhop because: - It's dynamic, making it unique for every map and situation (=fun, challenging) - Allows more control than bunnyhop because you can modify the height of your jumps by looking up/down. I think this is the biggest thing because you're not limited to existing from a normal jump's height off the ground all the time. - Pretty dang cool because it's new<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue that it is worse than bunnyhopping because:
- It's even less intuitive. - The detailed clutter in NS2 is already causing sticking/hitching/unpredictable movement without actively encouraging you to engage with it. NS1 had nice, smooth collision hulls by accident; you couldn't have more than ~700 Wpolys visible at any one time. This meant you could glide up slopes, slide along walls and only rarely have an issue(usually a bug in the clip hull generation that generated a tiny invisible "stair step" at the top of slopes and on beveled corners.). - Being more situational it places higher demands on mappers to understand and actively facilitate or hamper it, as required.
<!--quoteo(post=1917787:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:16 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Mar 25 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would argue that it is worse than bunnyhopping because:
- It's even less intuitive. - The detailed clutter in NS2 is already causing sticking/hitching/unpredictable movement without actively encouraging you to engage with it. NS1 had nice, smooth collision hulls by accident; you couldn't have more than ~700 Wpolys visible at any one time. This meant you could glide up slopes, slide along walls and only rarely have an issue(usually a bug in the clip hull generation that generated a tiny invisible "stair step" at the top of slopes and on beveled corners.). - Being more situational it places higher demands on mappers to understand and actively facilitate or hamper it, as required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how bunny hopping is intuitive at all. Let's move FORWARD faster by strafing and wiggling our mouse while spinning our mousewheel/script? Bunny hopping is probably the least intuitive movement mechanic I've ever heard of in any game. It's so unintuitive that the game designers didn't even intend for it to be there
Collision is a general NS2 problem, but that needs to be worked out regardless of what movement mechanics are in place. Maps definitely need to be designed with wall jumping in mind. Note: that doesn't mean that you need flat walls and boxes. You can have other crap in there to impede easy wall jumping just as a check against insane skulk speeds.
Offtopic: It doesn't really matter if bhop is that unintuitive anymore, almost every fps player today knows what it is and maybe even knows how to do it in at least some games. How hold is bhop? 10+ years?
What would people think if floor jumping provided for a greater percentage of the potential acceleration than it does currently? Wallhops would still provide more speed than the normal jumping but it would be more like the-icing-on-the-cake approach where performance-maximisers will jump on walls to gain the extra 10-15% speed but it would be more situational and a little less cost-efficient (a sweet spot would mean a wall-jump ~5-8secs rather than ~2secs perhaps)?
We already have this to some extent because jumping provides <i>some</i> speed but it's just totally dwarfed by wallhop. This makes walls and large entities <b>necessary</b> for skulks rather than <b>advantageous</b> which I think is a shame. It's a dependency we can do without while still maintaining its strengths.
Without getting into a debate about the movement systems themselves, would this be a happier compromise than what we have now?
Hopefully, celerity will speed up each action proportionally and so my suggestion would manifest itself identically with or without it (Ã la NS1). That being the case, I'm not sure how it would address my concerns?
<!--quoteo(post=1917804:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:34 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how bunny hopping is intuitive at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Air control is something you constantly exercise <i>whether or not you know how to bunnyhop</i>. You use it with leap, you use it with blink, you use it trying to jump from one place to another. You noticably gain speed from turning slowly and lose speed if you turn too fast. The only unintuitive thing you have to discover is that you can string it together with jumps so you maintain speed.
Jumping deliberately into walls is not intuitive. Jumping off said wall the correct timing is not intuitive. If you don't do both you don't gain noticable speed. If you don't know about wall jumping there's no reason you'd try such a thing and if you do it by accident you're likely to just write it off as a bug and not try to replicate it. This is already less intuitive than bunnyhopping; even if you figure that out, you still aren't there. There's one more unintuitive leap you need to make; you need to realize that you can maintain or gain speed by spazzing out and jumping into walls repeatedly.
<!--quoteo(post=1917804:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:34 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Collision is a general NS2 problem, but that needs to be worked out regardless of what movement mechanics are in place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The more frequently you do stuff that can cause problems, the lower the failure rate has to be.
<!--quoteo(post=1917824:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:10 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 25 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How hold is bhop? 10+ years?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quake came out in 1996(16 years ago). The movement mechanics in goldsrc and source engine games is extremely similar to quake since they inherited so much of their movement code directly from quake.
Quake had "primed" jumping. You didn't need to time jumps, just press and hold the jump button before you land. Most mods that embraced bunnyhopping(e.g. science and industry) did this as well.
The new skulk movement is the single most annoying thing that has messing me up sine 199... It does not make sense to me, it does not feel intuitive, and it is just annoying as hell.
Unless you master the walljumping way, you are bullet foods as a skulk.
And even when I am playing Marine and the skulk I am fighting is not walljumping much, I am just confused by the strange movement he makes...
"Improved air control" Charlie calls it? - It just is against every reason my brain has about movement of a biological creature. It is not an animal anymore. It is a heavy rocket...
<!--quoteo(post=1917848:date=Mar 25 2012, 06:44 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Mar 25 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Air control is something you constantly exercise <i>whether or not you know how to bunnyhop</i>. You use it with leap, you use it with blink, you use it trying to jump from one place to another. You noticably gain speed from turning slowly and lose speed if you turn too fast. The only unintuitive thing you have to discover is that you can string it together with jumps so you maintain speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that unintuitive thing you just described is literally the entire hard part about bunnyhopping.
If you want an intuitive movement skill that is easy to learn but difficult to master, look at Lerk flight. There are no special tricks, it works in a simple consistent way and you just have to get good with it. The equivalent special ability of skulks is wallwalking/jumping, and I think it makes sense to use that to add skill to their movement, but the current approach is forced and unnatural. I don't think skulk movement needs to be mechanically difficult at all, it should just be tricky to learn how best to make use of it to evade fire from competent marines.
I truly fail to see the depth in lerk flight. You move, you strafe, you flap to zig zag and dodge bullets. It seriously took me about two games to "master" lerk flight. Flap around as fast as possible while spamming your AD keys then track the marine with your crosshair.
And arguing that bunnyhopping is more intuitive because of air control is not very convincing. Being able to change your direction in air would not explain to anyone how they can go faster by strafing and wiggling their mouse to the left and the right. Also scripts and mousewheel jump binds? That's pretty much the definition of unintuitive.
Skulks climb walls/ceilings all the time. Anytime you jump off these walls/ceilings, you get a decent speed boost. It's not hard to see this once or twice and start wondering where that speed boost came from. I first "discovered" skulk leap by going off the wall and jumping. I didn't read the forums. I didn't have anyone else explain it to me. It took me a few hours to get pretty good at it and then I went to the forums. I learned more about it and I became even better at it. When b201 came out, it took me about 5 minutes to fully understand the new skulk movement. I'm obviously still working on it, but I can typically string together 5-10 jumps in a row. And that's just a day or two since the patch dropped.
If you were good enough at bhop you could do it with the spacebar, i did for a long time before mousewheel became popular. Those things only made the timing easier, they did not improve your proficiency at bunnyhopping. While lerk in NS2 is less skillful overall than NS1 it still requires good awareness, and reactions. Being able to pancake and gain lots of speed, making your movements erratic while not wasting time leaving or entering combat, using geometry and props as temporary cover all takes practice, and to do it instantly in combat against multiple targets or even marines you didnt see takes skill in game sense, beyond what most players have in this game. To date i have not seen one lerk in NS2 that has a high level of any of that, except for probably Tempest. Its not just about spamming left/right to evade, as against higher level players they can track that, you need to evade what you can while also not prolonging your exposure, and using any/all other available options as cover. The same things are what made NS1 skulk good, you could use bunnyhop to gain speed but at the cost of being predictable, and easier to shoot. There were times when it was better to a/d skulk to evade bullets, so that your teammate could get the kill. Other times it was how you used the bhop and air control to get to the marine as quickly as possible, or to take momentary cover behind a prop or obstacle.
Well said. I kinda want to write up a big effort post about lerk gameplay even though I'm out of practice and awful. Why? Because it helps organize my thoughts and kids get mad for some reason. All upsides.
Comments
Really? I dont even know how to answer the depth of the delusion in this post. Wow...
@fanatic, I was wondering why nobody hates on the complete air control in ns2, I find it a bit weird. Your quote was a response to me in the last thread about movement, they seem to come up periodically. I guess it takes some time for people to forget what they said 2 month earlier..
Bunny hop (some form of) is already in game, or am I crazy ? This thing of jumping repeatedly to keep velocity, how is it called ?
It is, but you lose speed quickly if you don't keep leaping or performing walljumps. Thanks for trying Warsow!
"Very little depth"
What? You're trying to make it easier, how is that going to add any depth?
What? You're trying to make it easier, how is that going to add any depth?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't just about trying to make it easier (although that is a nice goal). You can add depth by making the <b>end result</b> of walljumping not so simple. For instance, if it provided speed that carried over for longer without repeatedly walljumping, it could be used in conjunction with our friend bunnyhopping to create 'the full package' of skulk movement. There may be other unexplored ways of achieving this too.
There's so little variability in how a walljump is performed, and that is where the lack of depth comes from. It's a gimmicky mechanic exactly like leap and blink, except with an invisible white bar in place of energy management.
cory already addressed this is in another thread, but it doesn't just have to be walls and props, even angle changes on the floor can give you a boost, try it on a ramp or angled surface sometime. i can't think of a single map that has such a large open area with 0 angle changes and 0 props that a skulk can't attempt to perform a walljump while engaging a marine. perhaps you can't do it immediately from every and any angle, but if skulks didn't have the issue of losing all their momentum and having slow acceleration in certain situations, i think it'd be fine. i agree that it's not quite as intuitive as it should be, but even without knowing the correct way to do it i was able to get some noticeable speed boosts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for relearning things, you're half right: if the walljump mechanic in b201 was new, there would be no excuse for me needing to learn to do it. The problem is the mechanic (and its end result when performed) have been the same for months. It just becomes more irksome to pull it off whenever someone plays with the implementation, and I don't see any gain coming from that except that Skie's videos get a lot of views.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it hasn't been the same though. pre-199 skulk movement and walljump was much different. it's a process of bug squishing and refining the system so that it feels smooth, gives players a way to inuitively know that the mechanic exists and some feedback so that people know they're doing it correctly. i don't think bhop has some of those features except that it's a system that people have practiced for years, and so have become familiar with it, and the pushback against walljump refuses to acknowledge that perhaps with 10 years of practicing, walljump might have developed much of the same depth, and maybe someone will wow you with their precise timing and aim to allow them to approach from an unforeseen trajectory.
- It's dynamic, making it unique for every map and situation (=fun, challenging)
- Allows more control than bunnyhop because you can modify the height of your jumps by looking up/down. I think this is the biggest thing because you're not limited to existing from a normal jump's height off the ground all the time.
- Pretty dang cool because it's new<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue that it is worse than bunnyhopping because:
- It's even less intuitive.
- The detailed clutter in NS2 is already causing sticking/hitching/unpredictable movement without actively encouraging you to engage with it. NS1 had nice, smooth collision hulls by accident; you couldn't have more than ~700 Wpolys visible at any one time. This meant you could glide up slopes, slide along walls and only rarely have an issue(usually a bug in the clip hull generation that generated a tiny invisible "stair step" at the top of slopes and on beveled corners.).
- Being more situational it places higher demands on mappers to understand and actively facilitate or hamper it, as required.
- It's even less intuitive.
- The detailed clutter in NS2 is already causing sticking/hitching/unpredictable movement without actively encouraging you to engage with it. NS1 had nice, smooth collision hulls by accident; you couldn't have more than ~700 Wpolys visible at any one time. This meant you could glide up slopes, slide along walls and only rarely have an issue(usually a bug in the clip hull generation that generated a tiny invisible "stair step" at the top of slopes and on beveled corners.).
- Being more situational it places higher demands on mappers to understand and actively facilitate or hamper it, as required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how bunny hopping is intuitive at all. Let's move FORWARD faster by strafing and wiggling our mouse while spinning our mousewheel/script? Bunny hopping is probably the least intuitive movement mechanic I've ever heard of in any game. It's so unintuitive that the game designers didn't even intend for it to be there
Collision is a general NS2 problem, but that needs to be worked out regardless of what movement mechanics are in place. Maps definitely need to be designed with wall jumping in mind. Note: that doesn't mean that you need flat walls and boxes. You can have other crap in there to impede easy wall jumping just as a check against insane skulk speeds.
It doesn't really matter if bhop is that unintuitive anymore, almost every fps player today knows what it is and maybe even knows how to do it in at least some games.
How hold is bhop? 10+ years?
We already have this to some extent because jumping provides <i>some</i> speed but it's just totally dwarfed by wallhop. This makes walls and large entities <b>necessary</b> for skulks rather than <b>advantageous</b> which I think is a shame. It's a dependency we can do without while still maintaining its strengths.
Without getting into a debate about the movement systems themselves, would this be a happier compromise than what we have now?
Chances are just putting celerity in the game right now would do a lot for these concerns, without even touching walljumps.
Air control is something you constantly exercise <i>whether or not you know how to bunnyhop</i>. You use it with leap, you use it with blink, you use it trying to jump from one place to another. You noticably gain speed from turning slowly and lose speed if you turn too fast. The only unintuitive thing you have to discover is that you can string it together with jumps so you maintain speed.
Jumping deliberately into walls is not intuitive. Jumping off said wall the correct timing is not intuitive. If you don't do both you don't gain noticable speed. If you don't know about wall jumping there's no reason you'd try such a thing and if you do it by accident you're likely to just write it off as a bug and not try to replicate it. This is already less intuitive than bunnyhopping; even if you figure that out, you still aren't there. There's one more unintuitive leap you need to make; you need to realize that you can maintain or gain speed by spazzing out and jumping into walls repeatedly.
<!--quoteo(post=1917804:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:34 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 25 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Collision is a general NS2 problem, but that needs to be worked out regardless of what movement mechanics are in place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The more frequently you do stuff that can cause problems, the lower the failure rate has to be.
Quake came out in 1996(16 years ago). The movement mechanics in goldsrc and source engine games is extremely similar to quake since they inherited so much of their movement code directly from quake.
Quake had "primed" jumping. You didn't need to time jumps, just press and hold the jump button before you land. Most mods that embraced bunnyhopping(e.g. science and industry) did this as well.
Unless you master the walljumping way, you are bullet foods as a skulk.
And even when I am playing Marine and the skulk I am fighting is not walljumping much, I am just confused by the strange movement he makes...
"Improved air control" Charlie calls it? - It just is against every reason my brain has about movement of a biological creature. It is not an animal anymore. It is a heavy rocket...
And that unintuitive thing you just described is literally the entire hard part about bunnyhopping.
If you want an intuitive movement skill that is easy to learn but difficult to master, look at Lerk flight. There are no special tricks, it works in a simple consistent way and you just have to get good with it. The equivalent special ability of skulks is wallwalking/jumping, and I think it makes sense to use that to add skill to their movement, but the current approach is forced and unnatural. I don't think skulk movement needs to be mechanically difficult at all, it should just be tricky to learn how best to make use of it to evade fire from competent marines.
Holy cow I feel old...
And arguing that bunnyhopping is more intuitive because of air control is not very convincing. Being able to change your direction in air would not explain to anyone how they can go faster by strafing and wiggling their mouse to the left and the right. Also scripts and mousewheel jump binds? That's pretty much the definition of unintuitive.
Skulks climb walls/ceilings all the time. Anytime you jump off these walls/ceilings, you get a decent speed boost. It's not hard to see this once or twice and start wondering where that speed boost came from. I first "discovered" skulk leap by going off the wall and jumping. I didn't read the forums. I didn't have anyone else explain it to me. It took me a few hours to get pretty good at it and then I went to the forums. I learned more about it and I became even better at it. When b201 came out, it took me about 5 minutes to fully understand the new skulk movement. I'm obviously still working on it, but I can typically string together 5-10 jumps in a row. And that's just a day or two since the patch dropped.