Exo's can't phase?

thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
edited March 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">NS2 high level design</div>So reading through the high level design ( <a href="http://t.co/IVvzQav2" target="_blank">http://t.co/IVvzQav2</a> ) under the tradeoff's section I saw that apparently exo's wont be able to phase. I know I'm getting ahead of myself here since exos aren't in yet but I gotta ask a few questions.

Firstly, how the heck are exo's going to get around the map at a decent pace? NS1 heavies were very slow, PG's were the best way to get around with them. Will the new exo be faster? I doesn't seem right for exos to be as fast, or faster, than regular marines or JP marines. Since marines will be getting exos from the prototype lab, likely located in the main marine base, are marines really expected to trudge around the whole map if the want exos?

What about the possibility of a global PG upgrade for a significant Tres cost that makes the PGs big enough for exos? Initially I was think of upgrading individual PGs for exos, but that is way to problematic and confusing in terms of how PGs work in a 'circle'. You'd end up with two different circles and a lot of confused marines.

I've got plenty of faith in UWE. Normally I'd sit back and wait a few builds to check it out first. But if exos are like NS1 heavies in terms of speed AND can't phase like heavies could, is there some plan to give them a bit more mobility?
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Comments

  • BiglinesBiglines Join Date: 2003-12-07 Member: 24094Members, Constellation
    well in most science fiction, exo skeletons are generally making their users faster and stronger, so from a lore point of a view, exo skeletons could simply be faster and higher jumping, which would offset not being able to phase.

    That said, I also would like to see an answer to this, cuz if I have to walk accross the whole of mineshaft at the same speed of the old heavies, I'll never buy an exo unless I'm escorting arcs solo.
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I think this is defenitly something to look out for when exo's are added to the game. It would be a easy change later to allow them to go through pg if it becomes clear it won't work out.

    This could be interesting because forward proto laps may be viable(depending on their cost). So marines could use the pg and then get exo after they go through, however there is a lot of risk involved there.
  • sad. Clownsad. Clown Join Date: 2012-02-25 Member: 147407Members
    edited March 2012
    I was reading through the HLD the other day as well and came across this. I thought it was a cool concept. It would require a bit of forward thinking on the marines part. You'd have to have an exo in strategic locations, or have a proto lab in your other base.

    EDIT: Was beaten to it by Grissi. That's what I get for not submitting the reply before getting coffee.
  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
    Forward protolabs seem like wasted Tres to me. They cost a good bit and are fragile. You are going to have one in base were it is safe to research. Needing to drop another next to an alien base just to get exos in position seems foolish at best.
  • Gravity GraveGravity Grave California Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148556Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'm honestly wondering about the tradeoffs in general -- seems like a great idea, but do the alien upgrades REALLY have a downside to them? Carapace doesn't seem to make me any slower, for example.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited March 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1919005:date=Mar 28 2012, 06:37 PM:name=Gravity Grave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gravity Grave @ Mar 28 2012, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm honestly wondering about the tradeoffs in general -- seems like a great idea, but do the alien upgrades REALLY have a downside to them? Carapace doesn't seem to make me any slower, for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ... doesn't make you slower... yet. ;)


    As I imagine the exo right now, they wouldn't fit through the pg.

    And I honestly think it's awesome that they are not able to phase. You will have to gather in base and cross the whole map as a big group, with exos as tanks, covered by jetpackers, some light infanty and an ARCtrain. There will be some epic battles, when aliens ambush them.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    Honestly I rather like the idea of exos not being able to phase.

    Reason being, if they can phase, they're going to have to limit the power on them rather a lot, because being able to teleport half a dozen exos around the map willy nilly would be horribly OP otherwise.

    But if they have a movement restriction, they can get more armor as a tradeoff, and marines desperately need more tanky options.
  • sheena_yanaisheena_yanai Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
    yeah, the exos isnt about pace, as potential game ender they need some tradeoff, not being able to phase is quite nice, you will have to coordinate and have some regular marines escort you on the way to the hive and keep you welded, giving the aliens at least some reaction time on the way smaller maps. arc trains are already horrible when they show up , they cant phase, are "relatively slow" and yet aliens have a hard time getting rid of them. now imagine a arc that phases across the map in front of your hive, in addition it fires back and defends itself while moving.

    unphaseable exos sounds legit.
  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
    edited March 2012
    Fair enough, but the 3-5 minute marches from base to target seem both boring and tactically suicidal. If the marines want to push with heavies, err... exos, they are going to cripple their field presence until the exos can get to the front. I'm just worried about losing map control too easily when attempting an exo push because the marine team simply can't respond to a new threat properly.
  • PampelmusePampelmuse Join Date: 2005-04-06 Member: 47641Members
    the main tradeoff for exo vs jp is armor vs mobility.

    phasing right into the heat of the battle as exo denies this disadvantage and jetpack would lose much of its advantage.
  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Members, Constellation
    I am hoping the exo's bring back that heavy train feel.

    march march
    shoot shoot
    ammo request
    weld weld
    march march

    A decent (worked together) heavy train could wind up a game.
  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Or you just build a forward CC with obs, becaon all marines to base get exos beacon at forward base, save 1 min walking time. :-)

    They idea that exos can phase is great! If you buy an exo you will get a minigun with 250 rounds. And you can wear 2 pairs of them. So one exo can theoretical solo a hive by emptying his 2 mini guns.
    Thats alot of firepower, now if a group of 10 could phase right beside the hive it would be Hive down in 2s.

    Aliens have a bigger reaction time if they can not phase.
  • ÒŗăNģёÒŗăNģё Join Date: 2012-02-09 Member: 144437Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    I'm thinking they don't want to rework the phase just to accommodate a large exo suit, its to small for them so I guess it makes sense but maybe they could crouch through it lol
  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Members
    as someone who's been looking forward to the exo suit since pre-alpha, i really like the idea of restricting it from using the PG. a lack of mobility will be good compensation for allowing the enormous firepower it's sure to bring with it.
  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
    When I posted this, I wasn't thinking about the big difference in firepower the exo is supposed to bring to NS2 when compared tot he heavy from NS1. Maybe no phasing for exo's will work out well. We will know soon enough.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited March 2012
    edit: damn it, wrong thread
  • Dictator93Dictator93 Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65833Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    I for one welcome our new Exo-suit train overlords.
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    I don't have a google account, but did you also notice that heavy armor/exo smash eggs by touching them?
    But fast exo don't sound very well, but im sure uwe could not test it out, so have patience.
    if its not working, they will change it.

    In the placeholder exo file its.
    kWalkMaxSpeed = 4.38
    default marines have a walk speed of 5.
    And the Acceleration = 40 of exo, while default marines have 50 so im not sure if the exo is realy that fast.
    it would just look weird, seeing a heavy on speed.
    maybe they get a energy sprint, like the jetpack can fly, the heavy can boost up for a short time.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1919115:date=Mar 28 2012, 11:58 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Mar 28 2012, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have a google account, but did you also notice that heavy armor/exo smash eggs by touching them?
    But fast exo don't sound very well, but im sure uwe could not test it out, so have patience.
    if its not working, they will change it.

    In the placeholder exo file its.
    kWalkMaxSpeed = 4.38
    default marines have a walk speed of 5.
    And the Acceleration = 40 of exo, while default marines have 50 so im not sure if the exo is realy that fast.
    it would just look weird, seeing a heavy on speed.
    maybe they get a energy sprint, like the jetpack can fly, the heavy can boost up for a short time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, the auto bots can run really fast ;).
    But yeah, they need to be slower than a normal marine.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I've always viewed exo-suits as working like first-person player-controlled ARCs; i.e. slow, plodding attackers that are nearly unstoppable except against onos/combined alien assaults.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    Autobots running fast may be due to being the size of a 3 story building? No?

    I like no Exo PG, tanks don't generally deal to well with doorways....urban warfare is generally not tank friendly.
  • UzguzUzguz Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17016Members, Constellation
    How many marine bases will die while their only protectors are trudging across the map?
  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1919150:date=Mar 28 2012, 07:36 PM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Mar 28 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many marine bases will die while their only protectors are trudging across the map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    if the hive isn't next to marine base then it obviously wouldn't be wise for everyone to go exo.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    I think exos not being able to phase is a very interesting idea, it would cause some cool strategic decisions. However, one thing to remember is that buying an exosuit is a decision that players are making for themselves, it's not up to the comm. Maybe the comm builds a phase gate somewhere hoping everyone will go through it but a marine buys an exo not realizing this... Now he is forcibly separated from his team, with no choice but to walk across the map by himself. Restricting your movement that much is a decision with very large strategic implications and players might not be equipped to make it.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    as long as you can still beacon them back! otherwise it'll be the "wait for exo to leave base then rape em!" game, every time.
  • SilverAxSilverAx Join Date: 2003-10-26 Member: 21976Members
    What you <u>might</u> see are 'all ins' where the team all go as XO's and proceed to destroy hives while the aliens kill the marine's base so essentially whoever can kill the opposing teams bases the quickest, wins.

    What I <u>expect</u> to see are a few marines picking up XO suits while the rest get jetpacks or whatever else to provide cover for the XO's.

    Anyway, HA trains were rampant in NS1. Marine base would be left empty as the HA train moved from each hive, clearing it out and destroying the aliens, sometimes PG's were used, sometimes not. Each strategy is viable.

    If the marines keep pressure (real or imagined) on the hive then the aliens must play defensive and kill the XO train otherwise they'll lose their hive in record time.

    I'm curious to see how XO's not being allowed to use PG's will pan out. On paper it provides a clear pro/con choice and forces the marine to mix 'n match their team for what's the most effective loadout to take out the alien team.

    Just because you're not mobile doesn't mean you're not deadly.
  • assbdaassbda Join Date: 2011-05-02 Member: 96737Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1919150:date=Mar 29 2012, 11:36 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Mar 29 2012, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many marine bases will die while their only protectors are trudging across the map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Seriously? Did i just read that?

    I mean does it even need an answer?
    There are a couple simple solutions but can you seriously not work it out for yourself?
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1919150:date=Mar 29 2012, 12:36 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Mar 29 2012, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many marine bases will die while their only protectors are trudging across the map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Same as hives with onos of aliens :P
  • UzguzUzguz Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17016Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1919259:date=Mar 29 2012, 04:27 PM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Mar 29 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously? Did i just read that?

    I mean does it even need an answer?
    There are a couple simple solutions but can you seriously not work it out for yourself?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If you're going to have pretensions of holding the intellectual high ground, the least you could do is actually think about the issue.

    Presumably your "simple solutions" are Distress Beacon and not having the whole team use them. You may have also been thinking of turrets but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

    Even if exosuits can benefit from Beacon but not phase gates, which is a bit weird but let's run with it, it doesn't actually solve anything. Let's suppose a squad of exosuit-wearing marines march out of spawn, then a bunch of aliens show up to trash the place. The commander beacons, the aliens piss off before they arrive, and the marines are back in spawn again. Okay. That's nice.

    Now what do they do? March out again? Make the commander beacon again?

    They'll never actually get anywhere like that.

    So let's suppose, in an effort to avoid that embarrassment, the marine players have the discipline not to take exosuits all round. (In public games, they usually won't, but never mind that for now.) Some remain lightly armoured, letting them go from A to B faster and phase back and forth if need be. It's an improvement, but not without fault.

    If equipping the whole team with exosuits is not a viable strategy, they'll have to be statistically balanced around their limited representation. When deciding that an upgrade of any sort should only be used by a subset of the team at once, deciding how large that subset should be immediately raises the question of how well it scales with team size. If exosuits are supposed to counter the Onos, which can be used in packs without a similar drawback, large teams won't be able to deploy enough of them to actually have that effect. On the other hand, if they're powerful enough that only a couple of them <i>can</i> in fact counter a handful of Onoses, what does that mean for their capabilities in smaller games? It's all very well to blithely assume the scaling would work out more or less evenly between the two teams, but they're different enough that I'd be surprised if it went smoothly.

    If you have a different take on the matter then by all means share it, but keep the snide attitude to yourself.

    <!--quoteo(post=1919260:date=Mar 29 2012, 04:48 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Mar 29 2012, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Same as hives with onos of aliens :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And there's my point - the two are actually not the same. The Onos can get around the map and react to events faster than an exosuit-wearing marine that can't phase. Once the Shift is in, they'll have the alien version of Beacon too. So a full team of Onoses is less detrimental to map presence than a full team of exosuits looks set to be, which brings in the scaling issues mentioned above.

    If they can pull it off, more power to them, but we'll have to wait and see.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    Actually my solution would be 'don't have all the exosuits attack the hive and leave the base defenceless'.

    If you know the aliens are in a position to attack (which is to say, if you aren't right this second killing their hive) then you should be keeping a sort of skirmish perimeter around your base, with squads covering multiple routes out of the base.

    If the attack on the hive goes well, then you can use your mobile marines to support it.
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