A step in the right direction for Fade
Xostean
Join Date: 2012-02-17 Member: 146370Members
Join Date: 2012-02-17 Member: 146370Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Not for the onos</div>Ok so,
We should all know by now that the alien life forms have been disconnected from the number of hives you have at the cost of not being able to use them at 100% efficiency (<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->For example, the fade can shadow step but can not blink without a second hive, dealing a crushing blow to its effectiveness<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->). I do not mind that fades can appear before a second hive is dropped at the cost of abilities. It makes tactics on both sides change radically compared to pre 201 matches.
However, I also could not help but noticing the onos can also be acquired with only a single hive (<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->despite the patch notes saying it requires 2, which it should<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->). I am curious as to whether or not this is a bug that is planned to be fixed next build or if UWE truely intends to make onos a 1 hive creature. See unlike the fade an onos (<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->singular<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->) can present a significant problem for the marine team, no less when it is backed up by fades and gorges.
Thoughts?
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->tl;dr version
There is NO reason why an onos should be obtainable with only 1 hive, regardless of whether or not it can use smash.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
We should all know by now that the alien life forms have been disconnected from the number of hives you have at the cost of not being able to use them at 100% efficiency (<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->For example, the fade can shadow step but can not blink without a second hive, dealing a crushing blow to its effectiveness<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->). I do not mind that fades can appear before a second hive is dropped at the cost of abilities. It makes tactics on both sides change radically compared to pre 201 matches.
However, I also could not help but noticing the onos can also be acquired with only a single hive (<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->despite the patch notes saying it requires 2, which it should<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->). I am curious as to whether or not this is a bug that is planned to be fixed next build or if UWE truely intends to make onos a 1 hive creature. See unlike the fade an onos (<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->singular<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->) can present a significant problem for the marine team, no less when it is backed up by fades and gorges.
Thoughts?
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->tl;dr version
There is NO reason why an onos should be obtainable with only 1 hive, regardless of whether or not it can use smash.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
If f.e. He gets 50% less HP or his Hidearmor gets reduced a hive 1 onos wouldn't be such a great problem.
It worked in NS1, because there were several mechanics that weakened the onos that a bigger group if rines could kill him in seconds.
The whole onos discussion revealed alot of ideas, unbalances and problems that UWE will change in B202/203. The onos discussion has to be halted till the new patch comes out.
We read all arguments as UWE/PT also did now we have to wait.
that's about what Xostean wrote.
The plan is to balance the onos to be not overpowered at hive 1 :) sounds to me like a better solution than to simply bypass the problem and forbid that life form.
edit: @floodinator: changing such hidden numbers to scale with numbers of hives is not very elegant, but in terms of pure balance i have to agree that hide armor is the key. im working on better hit feedback currently, so if that works out and is intuitive enough, hide armor would not be a totally hidden value anymore (since you see variations in the hit effects), which would make it more likely to use hide armor to balance the onos. but still i prefer to balance him with new abilities (like with fade blink), since it is even with improved hit feedback easier to understand, so i see hide armor only as a last resort if everything else fails.
Did you ever thought of using Light/Medium/Heavy armor for Aliens instead for the marine guns?
Wouldn't that make the balancing not easier?
Cara could then improve the armor type from light-medium.
If the devs tweaked it properly i wouldnt mind it.
But in the current state of the onos i find it a bit silly to be allowed to get one at hive 1.
Where's the difference between not blink and blink, except that you can't use the fade at all without it?
Basically we have a Hive connected fade now.
If you have to, make their acceleration into an ability you use with the sprint key, and take that off too for hive 1.
It really shouldn't lose HP because being a giant brick of HP is what the onos is for.
Pre 201: +1 Hive = +1 Life Form , +1 Upgrade, +x Lifeform abilities
201: +1 Hive = +x Lifeform abilities, +1 Upgrade
Your version: +1 Hive = +1 Life Form, +1 Upgrade, +x Lifeform abilities , unless you already had 2 hives, in which case you get no extra life forms, 1 upgrade and x abilities.
Its unintuitive and puts less emphasis on a hive depending on what number it is.
The plan is to balance the onos to be not overpowered at hive 1 :) sounds to me like a better solution than to simply bypass the problem and forbid that life form.
edit: @floodinator: changing such hidden numbers to scale with numbers of hives is not very elegant, but in terms of pure balance i have to agree that hide armor is the key. im working on better hit feedback currently, so if that works out and is intuitive enough, hide armor would not be a totally hidden value anymore (since you see variations in the hit effects), which would make it more likely to use hide armor to balance the onos. but still i prefer to balance him with new abilities (like with fade blink), since it is even with improved hit feedback easier to understand, so i see hide armor only as a last resort if everything else fails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about you remove the onos stum effect in hive 1. The onos shouldn't knock back the marines at hive one, making it more balance and nicely compared with fade who hasn't blink ability at hive one.
Problem solved ^^
Problem solved ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we reduced gore stun duration. when you gore a marine you create a small gap, which you can close again easier at 2 hives with stomp. at least i hope it plays out like this :) (note that marines would need to position themself in a smart way to not get thrown against a wall)
Come to think of it, you know what marines need?
Tank traps.
The real issue started when the Marine tech was unlocked from the command chair, flamers and GL's became normal weapons and there isnt as single item the Marines cant get via 1 CC and multiple Extractors.
The aliens are still locked to number of hives though as the more powerfull abilities are linked to the hives, thus forcing the aliens to expand irrespective of if they can or not defend multiple hives... and with the lack of static defences the aliens cant really expand and defend, they are forced into the role of sieging the marines so they can safely expand, no other way.
I think prehaps UWE should investigate the possiblilty of going back to CC reliance for the marines, and then locking Fade to 2 hives, Onos to 3 hives. The marines wont face a 1 hive fade or onos and the aliens wont face flamers , GL's , Arcs and Exos at one CC... matches will end when one team secure level 3 technology and break the other side down.
It didnt work initially as the aliens lacked the weapons and abilities to counted marine pushes, and the state of the beta also made it hard to fight properly plus the only map was Rockdown... a tad small and limited for full 3 hive or 3 CC battles.
Whereas half a dozen marines can just swarm the thing with various weapons.
You could also give marines a relatively cheap buyable upgrade for the rifle which gives them explosive bullets or something, basically switching the damage type over to heavy, but cutting the ROF a bit. The overall effect should be increased power vs armor and better ammo conservation, but lower overall damage against regular hitpoints. On its own the effect would be negligible against most aliens, but as part of a mix of weapons and especially against structures/onoses it'd be more effective.
An Onos that only has gore and one upgrade would be a nice meat shield for lerks and fades, but it wouldn't be that threatening on its own. They may be meaty but they're also impossible to miss, and they still need two hits to kill a marine. Fade only needs one with the death blow + shadow step combo (which also might be a bit too good, but damn if it's not fun).
See if you examine the tech, its the Marines that are geared to expanding and holding territory whereas the Aliens are more mobile hit and run which thier tech support ( mobile whips ? temp. Hydra gardens ? ) whereas the Marines have static defenses and phasegates to move between held territory quickly... sure a skulk can react quicker to a marine chopping up a harvestor but the marine can fend off a single skulk with some comm help ( nano shield, med packs ) whereas a skulk chewing on a Extractor will most likely be shot to shreds before being able to react to the marines presence... so Marines can defend larger tracts of land easier than the aliens can.
So seeing that, its odd the Marines can turtle and tech up still , while the aliens are required to move out... least thats what I see.
It would be like saying "nerf the Fade!" if shotguns weren't implemented yet.
Smash does seem to be a bit of a problem though, considering how quickly a single Onos can take out a CC and win the game. With more than one the commander might not even have time to beacon even if he sees it right away.
See if you examine the tech, its the Marines that are geared to expanding and holding territory whereas the Aliens are more mobile hit and run which thier tech support ( mobile whips ? temp. Hydra gardens ? ) whereas the Marines have static defenses and phasegates to move between held territory quickly... sure a skulk can react quicker to a marine chopping up a harvestor but the marine can fend off a single skulk with some comm help ( nano shield, med packs ) whereas a skulk chewing on a Extractor will most likely be shot to shreds before being able to react to the marines presence... so Marines can defend larger tracts of land easier than the aliens can.
So seeing that, its odd the Marines can turtle and tech up still , while the aliens are required to move out... least thats what I see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it'll kill an onos it'll kill anything else even more easily. The point about onoses is you need to keep away from them, exos can't do that, jetpacks can.
The only problem is that any half-way competent alien team will have a 2nd hive up by the time someone has enough PRes for an onos. As such, onoses basically start with smash in most cases. If you moved smash to the 3rd hive, that would probably be enough.
Like how the lerk's spike damage ramps up at close range, where no lerk player should be encouraged to stay? And there's no longer a shotgun attack to justify it?
like how when there was a lerk shotgun, it had the same pellet spread as the rapid fire attack you would expect to be accurate?
<!--quoteo(post=1919365:date=Mar 29 2012, 12:00 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Mar 29 2012, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand what happens at Hive 2 for the Fade. Marines can have SGs 1 minute after they see the first fade, or, if they want, 4 mins before fades are up.
Where's the difference between not blink and blink, except that you can't use the fade at all without it?
Basically we have a Hive connected fade now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between hive 1 fade and hive 2 fade is that the hive 1 fade has to rely on shadow step and the utter brokenness of stab in order to be effective. Luckily, that's still fairly hard, so it discourages consistently using 1 hive fade (because things like that should not be the norm, or it de-emphasizes both teams "playing for the long term" the way the current onos does). I fail to see the problem...maybe if blink wasn't game-endingly powerful I could identify with you a bit.