Response to b202 Onos
Ybarra
Join Date: 2012-03-29 Member: 149621Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2012-03-29 Member: 149621Members, Squad Five Blue
I'm curious.. with the way the Onos performs as of b202, how will the Exo rate in comparison once released? Will it be what we're looking for to restore the "balance" or is it just going to be a Pres dump? Obviously we can only comment and rate on what we have in the build, but its worth the thought, no?
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1920145:date=Apr 1 2012, 02:46 AM:name=danada)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danada @ Apr 1 2012, 02:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Weird bug in Crushing Room. As a marine, I can crouch and walk under the conveyor belt, then if I jump I clip through the conveyor belt being able to shoot at aliens, then crouch to immediate safety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh good, relevance.
In addition, they need to come up with a proper solution to 1-hive onos rush strategies. I've posted numerous suggestions in the 202 release thread, I'm sure many more could be come up with.
The fact that it is available at first hive is a joke in itself.
Best suggestion yet.
Making them useless is not the most ideal solution.
Making them useless is not the most ideal solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already come out after the second hive, and I believe your issue is with the timing of them rather than their tech requirement yes? Tying them to second hive wouldn't change anything then.
Quit thinking in black and white. Having 1 hive onos makes the game more dynamic and allows aliens to stay into the game even if they can't quickly lock down a second hive. (Which is important because pre-b200 aliens would always need a second hive in order to stand a chance where as marines can just turtle if they have a few RTs)
Quit thinking in black and white. Having 1 hive onos makes the game more dynamic and allows aliens to stay into the game even if they can't quickly lock down a second hive. (Which is important because pre-b200 aliens would always need a second hive in order to stand a chance where as marines can just turtle if they have a few RTs)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about timing. It's impossible for players to afford Onos before the commander can afford 2nd hive unless they're pointlessly spamming structures.
Also if you really want to throw a nerf, make gore not knock down until 2nd hive, that would basically just make it a tank at 1 hive, and bullet target.
The biggest problem with 1 hive onos is it's ability to just completely wipe out any sort of base. It's a player killer, that's fine, but make it a player killer and eventually a building killer once more hives are up.
When the game could have ended it suddenly changes favor.
The second hive finishes around 4-7 minutes in, depending on the com. This timing is relevant in that this reply string is only towards those suggesting that the problem with Onos coming out too early could be solved by tying it to the second hive.
They don't need to worry about that when it concerns an onos.
No, the only proper solution I can see at the moment is a significant survivability nerf to the onos at 1 hive, a res hike (would only buy marines some time and may adversely affect lategame balance) or some sort of cap on the amount they can get early in the game...
I don't think there's a simple/quick fix for him right now, but I'll be able to address the balance problems with him again after we're done with PAX East.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least the devs are confirming that it is indeed a problem.
Here's hoping to a fix soon.
No, the only proper solution I can see at the moment is a significant survivability nerf to the onos at 1 hive, a res hike (would only buy marines some time and may adversely affect lategame balance) or some sort of cap on the amount they can get early in the game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it's fine as it is, I'm only insisting that a specific solution because of the reasons stated wouldn't create the intended change. I also like the idea of a heroic late game breakout with an onos or two when the aliens are knocked down to a single hive and limited resource points. If the marines lose to that scenario, they would have done something wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1920355:date=Apr 1 2012, 10:06 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 1 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fair enough, but I think the main issue there is with mineshaft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same timing is relevant for all maps I've played with.
<!--quoteo(post=1920355:date=Apr 1 2012, 10:06 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 1 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though I do believe that only at 3-hives the onos should be at maximum strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, Stomp should be locked to third if it remains as powerful as it is now.
<!--quoteo(post=1920351:date=Apr 1 2012, 10:02 AM:name=LV426-Colonist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LV426-Colonist @ Apr 1 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The aliens often struggle getting a second hive up.
They don't need to worry about that when it concerns an onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The neverending game focus on the second hive was really repetitive in previous iterations of the beta. I don't want to go back to that. Two hives should be important, but not what everything else hinges from.
My problem with it is its all well and good to run around goring marines left and right, but when you want to really come down hard on a structure, you need a bit of momentum behind the blow. So when the Onos uses smash, there should be a 1 or 2 second charge up period, during which the Onos really rears up, then he comes down hard on the structure. During this time, the Onos should be unable to move, and should take extra damage while rearing.
I think this would allow the damage to remain quite the same as it is now, without imbalancing anything. It would also discourage the use of smash while comprehensively surrounded by marines, and would prevent the fast paced hit and run nature players implement with it at the moment.
**And by "as it is now" I mean the 201 damage
I definitely agree with this. I got sick of people saying, "gg" after a 2nd hive went up.
The other issue here is, you can't really balance an Onos with no HA in. Basically people want the onos nerfed down now, so they can play, but once HA goes in, the whole thing will have to be completely rebalanced, because instead of an Onos train, you're going to have an unstoppable HA train.
The other thing here is, someone saying everyone waits to go Onos and you can't stop that train, even if it's nerfed to Gore, is a bit ridiculous. If no aliens go to higher life forms before the first 8-12 minutes of the game, they will get completely run over. All their res points will be gone, and you'll be lucky to see Onos by 15 minutes+, let alone the game go on that long. Most of the time a fade and lerks need to come out to keep the marines from running all over the map, and once that happens those people won't be getting Onos any time soon, and 2-3 Onos is definitely manageable if they are limited to just Gore. Yeah it'll take the whole team to focus on them, but still, manageable.
In closing, my suggestions:
1 Hive: Onos gore only, no knockdown
2 Hive: Either stomp or fixed smashed, and gore knocks down. I'm leaning more towards stomp now that I think of it, as building destroying should be a Hive 3 thing
3 Hives+: Stomp or fixed smash.
not according to Flayra's high level design doc.
@onosfactory: it makes sense for larger rooms, like FC, or elevator transfer, where you would see him coming. in ventilation it might be a but much, but at least it works in all scenarios. he should definitely be "an event" to make you want to run FAST.
I mean, jetpack flight better than onos, right ?
Maybe I don't know how to play with the jetpack but I often get knocked down when I try to flight away from an onos, it seems gore range is really huge in the air. Shouldn't knock-down on jetpacks be removed completely ? I you get gored while flying in the air you should actually go up, not down...