Thanks for the fantastic thread, Xarious. I can tell you've thought a lot about this, and it's really helpful that your suggestions match our stated desires.
This has given me some promising ideas, that are closely related to yours. My thoughts are that Cysts take longer to build (~8 seconds), but allow the Gorge to speed-build them. This should incentivize Gorges to be alongside the alien commander, helping him cruise through his gardening work. If the aliens don't have a Gorge or two helping build, it will take a lot longer to expand.
In all honestly the HMG was not a low-skill weapon, no marine weapon in NS1 was. For low skill players against decent skulks maybe, but a good fade or onos should have no problem killing a bad or average player with an HMG. With a jetpack that does change slightly for the onos however a good devour was all it took.
Honestly some of my favorite play was hmg/jp vs 3 hive fades. With enough practice and skill I could kill two carapace fades with one HMG clip. Plus dealing with xeno skulks with leap/focus made for very tense play.
In addition to the planned cysts build-time increase, I think it would be good to make the 3 higher lifeforms unlockable by alien tech. You could choose to research fade or lerk, but for onos you would need both lifeforms already researched.
This adds more freedom to the kham, giving tactical choices over what lifeform is important. AND it will cost res, the aliens can't spend on an early 2nd hive or other upgrades.
You could even try to unlock the 2nd/3rd hive weapons of the lifeforms not only with a second hive, but also with researchable tech. As someone said, it is really a problem, that the alien kham has so little to research and with that, so little tactical depth.
<!--quoteo(post=1921021:date=Apr 2 2012, 02:21 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Apr 2 2012, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most common NS1 version 3.2 6v6 tactic was to have 1 guy save for the hive, two guys drop rts at the start of the round, one guy drops chambers for upgrades, one guy goes lerk and one guy saves for fade. So basically you only had two players, out of six, who would only save for lifeforms.
Compare that to NS2 currently, where most of the players, commander and perhaps one gorge excepted, save their res for lifeforms. Combine that with the difficulty of reliably doing damage to aliens currently due to poor server/client performance, and it should be pretty obivous why balance is skewed in favour of the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I must say that i'm not fan of the resflow at all and was in fear from the start. When its so far out from the previous (ns1) designing they should significally change something on the resflow.
As it stands the 25 startup, which has started a lot of talk already does not suit current gameplay. If most of the res is used to lifeforms it just results mass fading/lerking/onosing. And all this happens simultaneously in whole a team, and way too fast in a round. Risk/reward doesn't also carry right, because u do not lose anything if you lose an RT, or so. As it was important in ns1 keeping the FADE/s alive aswell, now you can have multiple fades AND if you somehow lose part of the mapcontrol that is "vital" doesnt always count.
We cant say too much BEFORE the whole tech three is implemented, but i do not honestly see way how its gonna work whit this concept.
Not talking about the balance or current problems releated to gameplay (netcode, performance), but the overall game designing. I think there is a HUGE step to be taken further, but to where I do not know.
Thanks for the reply Flayra! Great to hear you guys are all over this issue. Keep up the great work :)
Definitely like the idea of cysts taking longer to build with the gorges being able to speed them up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the original reason for starting with 25 pres? the gorge. but if his abilities become "free"... ?...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think lowering the p.res for both sides would be interesting indeed, it's probably also something that is easy to mod on the serverside, no? What it would do is prolong that early game by a few minutes, giving both sides (but mainly marines who need it) some more time to tech before lerks, fades and onos come out. It wouldn't however address the skulk vs marine domination early in the game (which you could argue is fine, provided not having any gorges holds some sort of a trade-off for aliens as well), or the expansion advantage aliens hold.
You could probably combine a reduction in p.res with that slower khamm expansion and you would already see a very big effect on gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the beginning we lost 3 rts as aliens, consitering how important rts are this should have crippled our play, however it was easy for me to simply replace the rts few sec after they went down with relative ease.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this, however I'm of the opinion it probably has more to do with how few other T.res sinks the alien khamm currently has. I.e if he's not saving for a hive or putting down new extractors, there's very little other things to invest t.res in. (after an initial upgrade) Technically losing those 3 harvesters probably set your team back a LOT in terms of the res for a second hive, but second hives are currently nowhere near as important as extractors anyway. Certainly not with the onos being arguably only slightly less viable at 1-hive compared to 2. (Where as for fades not having blink at 1 hive is a much bigger deal than no stomp is for onos)
They should IMO consider hitting the 1-hive onos survivability, i.e a smaller model of the onos (like a 'young' onos) and have him mature only at 2-hives, then give him stomp at 3. This way the second hive is equally important for onos as it is for fades (and even lerks/gorges to some extent), and you solve the issue of onos early in the game
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition to the planned cysts build-time increase, I think it would be good to make the 3 higher lifeforms unlockable by alien tech. You could choose to research fade or lerk, but for onos you would need both lifeforms already researched.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this as well, at least for fades and onos. Normally you invested T.res to unlock these lifeforms indirectly by building the second or third hive. (The cost of these lifeforms is integrated in the 75 T.res cost for the hive) With lifeforms being unlocked from hive 1, there should at least be a res sink to unlock them with t.res first before the players can evolve into them. Currently it is no different than if marines were able to go EXO once they have the needed p.res. (Where as marines will have to go through various phases of tech first)
It would add more choices and depth to the Khamm, even out the t.res sink for aliens and make the game a lot more dynamic in general. In addition, new hive cost should probably receive a significant drop since it's no longer as crucial as it was. The 75 t.res is a remnant of when it unlocked a new lifeform (which was the most important part about it)
One of the problem is that fixing as a goal to get 50% winrate is a very ill defined problem. Let me explain.
The winrate depends on a large number of parameters : skulk health, res influx, lmg damage, tech cost, etc.
Taken alone almost every one of this parameters allows to get a 50% winrate. The reason why this is true is the following. Take the lmg damage as an example. Put it to zero, the marine winrate drop to zero. Put it to infinity (one shot everything), the marine winrate goes to 100%. By a continuity assumption there is a lmg damage value where the winrate is 50% (it cannot go from 0 to 100 without passing by 50).
The same is true for almost every other parameter. What this means is that saying "parameter X is responsible for the non-50% winrate" is meaningless since it is trivially true for any parameter.
I don't go into combination of parameters (e.g. for two parameters there is probably a curve of 50% winrate, for three a surface, etc.) but the problem become even more degenerated.
So, what we need right know is more, clearly stated, balance criteria, in addition to the 50% winrate.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
Another point is that a 50/50 win rate (or close to it) does not necessarily mean the game is balanced.
Especially with such a small pool of results, external factors can have a huge impact.
For example if one team is weaker, competitive players are more likely to play that team (to practice where it is needed most). Players like myself also attempt to alternate teams when possible to try and ensure that both sides win frequently (or at least one does not permanently dominate). This causes win/loss ratios much closer to 50/50 than balance would actually cause.
<!--quoteo(post=1921424:date=Apr 3 2012, 09:10 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Apr 3 2012, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another point is that a 50/50 win rate (or close to it) does not necessarily mean the game is balanced.
Especially with such a small pool of results, external factors can have a huge impact.
For example if one team is weaker, competitive players are more likely to play that team (to practice where it is needed most). Players like myself also attempt to alternate teams when possible to try and ensure that both sides win frequently (or at least one does not permanently dominate). This causes win/loss ratios much closer to 50/50 than balance would actually cause.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone hasn't spoken of winrates afaik. But we don't even need to argue that the games scale is HEAVILY shifted to aliens. Calculations at this state are meaningless.
"- aliens have 95% winrate, I think the reason is A. - You're right ! - No, the reason is obviously B. - While A and B might contribute I think the main reason is C. ..."
As I argued above this kind of discussion is meaningless.
I think the choke/lag factors into it, as well as the speed of the alien rush. But a big factor of it in my opinion would be the speed at which cysts can be built and replaced. If you have some res available, you (as the Khamm) can spam the cysts to go from one side of the map to the other instantaneously. One feature i would like to see implemented would be a delay between planting one cyst, and the ability to plant the next one around it.
Though this is more for the late game, not early on.
<!--quoteo(post=1921155:date=Apr 3 2012, 01:30 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 3 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this also largely has to do with something most don't consider: Aliens start with 25 pres, right off the bat.
thats halfway to fade, a minute or two before lerk, and already two and a half gorges. it skips the early game, but most importantly what this does is it allows aliens to get life forms easily and early. Unlike rines, who must wait for Tres to up their tech.
today i played an organized game with playtesters, we're on mineshaft as marines and we cut off every harvester but the one in base as soon as the game started. we ended up owning almost every res tower at one point. this didn't stop the fades and lerks from coming ~ the 6 minute mark and wrecking marines.
the original reason for starting with 25 pres? the gorge. but if his abilities become "free"... ?...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A very good point and a relic from the NS1 days when it was needed to start you out with 2 or so rts and some chambers. A drop in starting Pres would be a welcomed change.
A little radical but what about starting at 5 Pres and make the gorge unit cost 0 res?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1921439:date=Apr 3 2012, 07:45 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 3 2012, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The discussion went like that :
"- aliens have 95% winrate, I think the reason is A. - You're right ! - No, the reason is obviously B. - While A and B might contribute I think the main reason is C. ..."
As I argued above this kind of discussion is meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not meaningless, because there is one (or more likely a couple) factors limiting the winrate for a side.
For example, let's assume that we've changed the lmg damage to one-shot everything (the infinite damage example you used) and the lmg accuracy to 0 (i.e. it can never hit anything). As long as the lmg accuracy is set to 0, the marine winrate would be 0% regardless of the lmg damage, because the lmg accuracy is the limiting factor for the marine winrate.
As such, winrates are determined by a few 'limiting' factors or elements. A good example was the alien hive energy before cysts/drifters cost res. Early game, alien expansion was limited by hive energy, such that as long as the res flow was above a certain threshold, it didn't matter if it was that threshold value or infinity, aliens could only expand as fast as their hive energy allowed.
Yes, what I wanted to say by "meaningless" is that somehow all the reasons (A,B and C) are valid, in the sense that if you change one of them enough you could get a 50% winrate. So there is no much meaning of arguing about A, B or C being the "right one", or even trying to list them all.
The 50% winrate is an easy problem, a too easy problem in fact, because it has many solutions (ok, it's still a hard problem in practice because you need to play a lot of games to test a solution and this takes a lot of time). What we need is additional explicit criteria, beyond the 50% goal, to discriminate between these solutions.
<!--quoteo(post=1921439:date=Apr 3 2012, 08:45 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 3 2012, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The discussion went like that :
"- aliens have 95% winrate, I think the reason is A. - You're right ! - No, the reason is obviously B. - While A and B might contribute I think the main reason is C. ..."
As I argued above this kind of discussion is meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people should wait until the game is closer to release before we really get angry over balance, there are so many things that can drastically change the balance which have yet to be added:
Exosuits Goowall Babblers Upgrades for ARCs/Jetpacks Shift and Spurs Phantasm
and probably other things that we don't even know the developers have planned.
None of that is relevant to early game balance however. I think it's safe to say the problem as it stands currently is going to persist well past 1.0 if they don't address it. (Which clearly, judging by Flayra's post, they will)
Well, the whole discussion is sorta predicated on the fact that aliens win a lot of competitive games, and recently have dominated pubs as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1921519:date=Apr 3 2012, 01:56 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Apr 3 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A very good point and a relic from the NS1 days when it was needed to start you out with 2 or so rts and some chambers. A drop in starting Pres would be a welcomed change.
A little radical but what about starting at 5 Pres and make the gorge unit cost 0 res?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what would be neat? Reducing the starting res and matching that with the return of <b>res from kills</b>. Near the start of the game, it would mean that the players getting kills are the ones who get lifeforms and guns. Instead of whole teams with shotguns, you would have a team of LMGs with a couple shotguns because those players did well in combat. For the aliens, some people would get to lerk/fade faster, and others would be careful not to throw away their 10 res investment in the gorge to heal in combat. It would help diversify the use of lifeforms/guns, which is something that still hasn't happened in this game after all the changes to the res model and item costs.
<!--quoteo(post=1921633:date=Apr 3 2012, 10:51 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 3 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what would be neat? Reducing the starting res and matching that with the return of <b>res from kills</b>. Near the start of the game, it would mean that the players getting kills are the ones who get lifeforms and guns. Instead of whole teams with shotguns, you would have a team of LMGs with a couple shotguns because those players did well in combat. For the aliens, some people would get to lerk/fade faster, and others would be careful not to throw away their 10 res investment in the gorge to heal in combat. It would help diversify the use of lifeforms/guns, which is something that still hasn't happened in this game after all the changes to the res model and item costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1921766:date=Apr 4 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 4 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone know if you can change starting p.res server side easily btw? Would be very interesting to experiment with I reckon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are some pointers: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=115099&view=findpost&p=1921369" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1921369</a> It seems that dePara has changed the starting res to 15 in HBZ #3
I always figured the best way to encourage lifeform diversity was to make sure skulks weren't completely overshadowed by higher lifeforms and to give them something to use their res on that helped the team out as equally as evolving.
Making gorges necessary in the early game is a great idea, nice thread Xarius.
Isn't the reason aliens win more often because of fade and onos? I have played some gathers recently where we were getting completely outplayed as skulks/lerks but as long as we managed to get a 2nd hive up and get blink fades and then an onos we were fine. They are basically game winners. The marine team doesn't really have anything like that.
Sure fades might be better than they were, but they are still OP as hell. The biggest issue is the lack of skill needed to play them / low skill ceiling. If I can go on a pub server and go 50-0 without even trying then something is wrong. That should only be possible if you are playing out of your skin.
Onos is just ridiculous as well. Lower skill ceiling than the tank from l4d.
If you want the game to be balanced temporarily then limit teams to 1 fade and 1 onos or something like that. Or make it require 3 hives to get blink and onos. This won't make a good game, but that can only come from changing the mechanics of those 2 classes.
Lack of marine late game jp being pathetic and no other real late game screws it up for marines.
Imo the problem is in the res system since nobody other than comm has to invest in anything regardless of how the game goes you'll always end up with simultanous mass fades or mass onoses, where marines has seriously nerfed weapons since they are available throughout the game.
If the regging and animations would work properly story would be different.
It seems like HBZ 3 is now experimenting with lower start res, cheaper gorge cysts and hydras and a bunch of other changes. It's definitely going to be interesting to see how this affects balance.
The problem lies in the res flow, marines should be able to slow the alien tech down quite a bit by killing rts. Since aliens can rebuild lost rts almost instantly the players keep getting player res, that means its near impossible to slow the arrival of fades/onos. Sure the 2nd hive might come bit later but you still get that mass of lifeforms on time.
In ns1 killing a rt ment that a gorge had to wait for 15 res again or another player had to gorge to replace it. This either forced the team to lose 1 adv lifeform or get lifeforms 1-2 min later.
Again the problem lies in ns1 mechanics with ns2 recources system, they need to fix it so it actually hurts the alien team to lose rts and cysts - consitering the effort and time it takes to kill them.
Comments
This has given me some promising ideas, that are closely related to yours. My thoughts are that Cysts take longer to build (~8 seconds), but allow the Gorge to speed-build them. This should incentivize Gorges to be alongside the alien commander, helping him cruise through his gardening work. If the aliens don't have a Gorge or two helping build, it will take a lot longer to expand.
No RFK means aliens can rush marine base early game with no consequence previously this feed marines reosources if the rush failed..
Second is lack of HMG that weapon was very low skill cap and it allowed non pro players to counter good fades, leeks and onos.
Honestly some of my favorite play was hmg/jp vs 3 hive fades. With enough practice and skill I could kill two carapace fades with one HMG clip. Plus dealing with xeno skulks with leap/focus made for very tense play.
EDIT: It all makes sense after reading the High Level Design document.
You could choose to research fade or lerk, but for onos you would need both lifeforms already researched.
This adds more freedom to the kham, giving tactical choices over what lifeform is important. AND it will cost res, the aliens can't spend on an early 2nd hive or other upgrades.
You could even try to unlock the 2nd/3rd hive weapons of the lifeforms not only with a second hive, but also with researchable tech.
As someone said, it is really a problem, that the alien kham has so little to research and with that, so little tactical depth.
In any case, this will slow down the aliens.
Compare that to NS2 currently, where most of the players, commander and perhaps one gorge excepted, save their res for lifeforms. Combine that with the difficulty of reliably doing damage to aliens currently due to poor server/client performance, and it should be pretty obivous why balance is skewed in favour of the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I must say that i'm not fan of the resflow at all and was in fear from the start. When its so far out from the previous (ns1) designing they should significally change something on the resflow.
As it stands the 25 startup, which has started a lot of talk already does not suit current gameplay. If most of the res is used to lifeforms it just results mass fading/lerking/onosing. And all this happens simultaneously in whole a team, and way too fast in a round. Risk/reward doesn't also carry right, because u do not lose anything if you lose an RT, or so. As it was important in ns1 keeping the FADE/s alive aswell, now you can have multiple fades AND if you somehow lose part of the mapcontrol that is "vital" doesnt always count.
We cant say too much BEFORE the whole tech three is implemented, but i do not honestly see way how its gonna work whit this concept.
Not talking about the balance or current problems releated to gameplay (netcode, performance), but the overall game designing. I think there is a HUGE step to be taken further, but to where I do not know.
Definitely like the idea of cysts taking longer to build with the gorges being able to speed them up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the original reason for starting with 25 pres? the gorge. but if his abilities become "free"... ?...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think lowering the p.res for both sides would be interesting indeed, it's probably also something that is easy to mod on the serverside, no? What it would do is prolong that early game by a few minutes, giving both sides (but mainly marines who need it) some more time to tech before lerks, fades and onos come out. It wouldn't however address the skulk vs marine domination early in the game (which you could argue is fine, provided not having any gorges holds some sort of a trade-off for aliens as well), or the expansion advantage aliens hold.
You could probably combine a reduction in p.res with that slower khamm expansion and you would already see a very big effect on gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the beginning we lost 3 rts as aliens, consitering how important rts are this should have crippled our play, however it was easy for me to simply replace the rts few sec after they went down with relative ease.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this, however I'm of the opinion it probably has more to do with how few other T.res sinks the alien khamm currently has. I.e if he's not saving for a hive or putting down new extractors, there's very little other things to invest t.res in. (after an initial upgrade) Technically losing those 3 harvesters probably set your team back a LOT in terms of the res for a second hive, but second hives are currently nowhere near as important as extractors anyway. Certainly not with the onos being arguably only slightly less viable at 1-hive compared to 2. (Where as for fades not having blink at 1 hive is a much bigger deal than no stomp is for onos)
They should IMO consider hitting the 1-hive onos survivability, i.e a smaller model of the onos (like a 'young' onos) and have him mature only at 2-hives, then give him stomp at 3. This way the second hive is equally important for onos as it is for fades (and even lerks/gorges to some extent), and you solve the issue of onos early in the game
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition to the planned cysts build-time increase, I think it would be good to make the 3 higher lifeforms unlockable by alien tech.
You could choose to research fade or lerk, but for onos you would need both lifeforms already researched.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this as well, at least for fades and onos. Normally you invested T.res to unlock these lifeforms indirectly by building the second or third hive. (The cost of these lifeforms is integrated in the 75 T.res cost for the hive) With lifeforms being unlocked from hive 1, there should at least be a res sink to unlock them with t.res first before the players can evolve into them. Currently it is no different than if marines were able to go EXO once they have the needed p.res. (Where as marines will have to go through various phases of tech first)
It would add more choices and depth to the Khamm, even out the t.res sink for aliens and make the game a lot more dynamic in general. In addition, new hive cost should probably receive a significant drop since it's no longer as crucial as it was. The 75 t.res is a remnant of when it unlocked a new lifeform (which was the most important part about it)
The winrate depends on a large number of parameters : skulk health, res influx, lmg damage, tech cost, etc.
Taken alone almost every one of this parameters allows to get a 50% winrate. The reason why this is true is the following. Take the lmg damage as an example. Put it to zero, the marine winrate drop to zero. Put it to infinity (one shot everything), the marine winrate goes to 100%. By a continuity assumption there is a lmg damage value where the winrate is 50% (it cannot go from 0 to 100 without passing by 50).
The same is true for almost every other parameter. What this means is that saying "parameter X is responsible for the non-50% winrate" is meaningless since it is trivially true for any parameter.
I don't go into combination of parameters (e.g. for two parameters there is probably a curve of 50% winrate, for three a surface, etc.) but the problem become even more degenerated.
So, what we need right know is more, clearly stated, balance criteria, in addition to the 50% winrate.
Especially with such a small pool of results, external factors can have a huge impact.
For example if one team is weaker, competitive players are more likely to play that team (to practice where it is needed most). Players like myself also attempt to alternate teams when possible to try and ensure that both sides win frequently (or at least one does not permanently dominate). This causes win/loss ratios much closer to 50/50 than balance would actually cause.
Especially with such a small pool of results, external factors can have a huge impact.
For example if one team is weaker, competitive players are more likely to play that team (to practice where it is needed most). Players like myself also attempt to alternate teams when possible to try and ensure that both sides win frequently (or at least one does not permanently dominate). This causes win/loss ratios much closer to 50/50 than balance would actually cause.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone hasn't spoken of winrates afaik. But we don't even need to argue that the games scale is HEAVILY shifted to aliens. Calculations at this state are meaningless.
"- aliens have 95% winrate, I think the reason is A.
- You're right !
- No, the reason is obviously B.
- While A and B might contribute I think the main reason is C.
..."
As I argued above this kind of discussion is meaningless.
Though this is more for the late game, not early on.
Aliens start with 25 pres, right off the bat.
thats halfway to fade, a minute or two before lerk, and already two and a half gorges.
it skips the early game, but most importantly what this does is it allows aliens to get life forms easily and early.
Unlike rines, who must wait for Tres to up their tech.
today i played an organized game with playtesters, we're on mineshaft as marines and we cut off every harvester but the one in base as soon as the game started. we ended up owning almost every res tower at one point. this didn't stop the fades and lerks from coming ~ the 6 minute mark and wrecking marines.
the original reason for starting with 25 pres? the gorge. but if his abilities become "free"... ?...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A very good point and a relic from the NS1 days when it was needed to start you out with 2 or so rts and some chambers. A drop in starting Pres would be a welcomed change.
A little radical but what about starting at 5 Pres and make the gorge unit cost 0 res?
"- aliens have 95% winrate, I think the reason is A.
- You're right !
- No, the reason is obviously B.
- While A and B might contribute I think the main reason is C.
..."
As I argued above this kind of discussion is meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not meaningless, because there is one (or more likely a couple) factors limiting the winrate for a side.
For example, let's assume that we've changed the lmg damage to one-shot everything (the infinite damage example you used) and the lmg accuracy to 0 (i.e. it can never hit anything). As long as the lmg accuracy is set to 0, the marine winrate would be 0% regardless of the lmg damage, because the lmg accuracy is the limiting factor for the marine winrate.
As such, winrates are determined by a few 'limiting' factors or elements. A good example was the alien hive energy before cysts/drifters cost res. Early game, alien expansion was limited by hive energy, such that as long as the res flow was above a certain threshold, it didn't matter if it was that threshold value or infinity, aliens could only expand as fast as their hive energy allowed.
The 50% winrate is an easy problem, a too easy problem in fact, because it has many solutions (ok, it's still a hard problem in practice because you need to play a lot of games to test a solution and this takes a lot of time). What we need is additional explicit criteria, beyond the 50% goal, to discriminate between these solutions.
"- aliens have 95% winrate, I think the reason is A.
- You're right !
- No, the reason is obviously B.
- While A and B might contribute I think the main reason is C.
..."
As I argued above this kind of discussion is meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y162/NecropsY/what.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Exosuits
Goowall
Babblers
Upgrades for ARCs/Jetpacks
Shift and Spurs
Phantasm
and probably other things that we don't even know the developers have planned.
The utter chaos and confusion mixed in with the unoptimized gameplay creates disaster.
Well, the whole discussion is sorta predicated on the fact that aliens win a lot of competitive games, and recently have dominated pubs as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1921519:date=Apr 3 2012, 01:56 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Apr 3 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A very good point and a relic from the NS1 days when it was needed to start you out with 2 or so rts and some chambers. A drop in starting Pres would be a welcomed change.
A little radical but what about starting at 5 Pres and make the gorge unit cost 0 res?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what would be neat? Reducing the starting res and matching that with the return of <b>res from kills</b>.
Near the start of the game, it would mean that the players getting kills are the ones who get lifeforms and guns. Instead of whole teams with shotguns, you would have a team of LMGs with a couple shotguns because those players did well in combat. For the aliens, some people would get to lerk/fade faster, and others would be careful not to throw away their 10 res investment in the gorge to heal in combat. It would help diversify the use of lifeforms/guns, which is something that still hasn't happened in this game after all the changes to the res model and item costs.
Near the start of the game, it would mean that the players getting kills are the ones who get lifeforms and guns. Instead of whole teams with shotguns, you would have a team of LMGs with a couple shotguns because those players did well in combat. For the aliens, some people would get to lerk/fade faster, and others would be careful not to throw away their 10 res investment in the gorge to heal in combat. It would help diversify the use of lifeforms/guns, which is something that still hasn't happened in this game after all the changes to the res model and item costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another good solution. I always liked RFK.
Here are some pointers: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=115099&view=findpost&p=1921369" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1921369</a>
It seems that dePara has changed the starting res to 15 in HBZ #3
Making gorges necessary in the early game is a great idea, nice thread Xarius.
Sure fades might be better than they were, but they are still OP as hell. The biggest issue is the lack of skill needed to play them / low skill ceiling. If I can go on a pub server and go 50-0 without even trying then something is wrong. That should only be possible if you are playing out of your skin.
Onos is just ridiculous as well. Lower skill ceiling than the tank from l4d.
If you want the game to be balanced temporarily then limit teams to 1 fade and 1 onos or something like that. Or make it require 3 hives to get blink and onos. This won't make a good game, but that can only come from changing the mechanics of those 2 classes.
Imo the problem is in the res system since nobody other than comm has to invest in anything regardless of how the game goes you'll always end up with simultanous mass fades or mass onoses, where marines has seriously nerfed weapons since they are available throughout the game.
If the regging and animations would work properly story would be different.
In ns1 killing a rt ment that a gorge had to wait for 15 res again or another player had to gorge to replace it. This either forced the team to lose 1 adv lifeform or get lifeforms 1-2 min later.
Again the problem lies in ns1 mechanics with ns2 recources system, they need to fix it so it actually hurts the alien team to lose rts and cysts - consitering the effort and time it takes to kill them.