<!--quoteo(post=1921264:date=Apr 3 2012, 01:44 AM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Apr 3 2012, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why shouldn't a gorge be able to hold his position against a few marines with ARs and protect his hydras that he spent non-recoverable resources on? as soon as marines get grenade launchers / ARCs it's game over for hydras anyway. plus it's not like it was an unstoppable defence, the marines could always rush in and kill the gorge(s) with the commander using nano shield and dropping medpacks, hydras don't do nearly enough damage to stop a coordinated attack like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but the problem in this case is that hydras suck
You shouldn't design healspray around hydras. You should design it around 'working with teammates in combat' - unfortunately, because some players worked with their onos teammates it got turned into a crappier mechanic in a knee-jerk reaction.
<!--quoteo(post=1921272:date=Apr 3 2012, 02:14 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Apr 3 2012, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Gorge-Onos combo is too powerful, then Onos needs its base armor reduced. Once the Onos is stripped of its armor, it begins taking TerribleTerrible damage, especially Shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct. It's bad design to make 2 changes at once that do the same thing (onos hide reduction, gorge healspray change) because it's harder to evaluate the effect of each one individually. On top of that, one of those changes probably wasn't needed at all since, as people mentioned, killing healbot gorges was not difficult (and in fact the flamethrower had an important role in breaking up onos-gorge pairs).
The problem is this is what happens with basically any game that lets the players voice their opinions. If enough paying customers say everything is unfair and broken and "OP", people tend to lose their cool and make way too many changes way too fast.
Maybe I'm not playing on the right servers or in the right matches, but I have never seen a gorge effectively heal an Onos when its attacking a marine position.
I've seen gorges run in with an Onos attacking a base of marines who have already been thoroughly beaten and are in complete disarray. Other than that however, any gorge that steps foot in a prepared marine base, regardless of who they are accompanying, is instantly killed by the closest marine. It really is as easy as /use gun on Gorge. Gorge is dead.
Healspray as a heal over time with less up front health restoration would allow gorges to lurk on the edges of the battle but still be useful, no? Low duration necessary!
<!--quoteo(post=1921610:date=Apr 3 2012, 11:23 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Apr 3 2012, 11:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wouldn't be fair to just affect one lifeform. make healspray like alcohol. the bigger you are, the less potent it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, why?
Like I said, every other lifeform doesn't benefit very much from combat healing, because skulks are very fragile and could easily die between heals, and lerks/fades move constantly and much faster than the gorge, and would die instantly if they didn't.
Onoses are the only class that is really viable and benefits greatly from healing, so nerf the effect on the onos and it functions the same as the other lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1921618:date=Apr 4 2012, 09:31 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Apr 4 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The one thing I didn't like was placing 2 or 3 hydras down in a strategical location, then having 3 or 4 marines come upon your position. They could all focus fire directly into the same hydra, and the gorge would be able to out-heal the damage indefinitely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can tell you right now that this is a problem that is due to how healspray affects certain buildings. Simple damage vs healing maths does not support the situation you described otherwise. Healspray has for a very long time now healed whips, hydras, cysts for alot more than it should (i think it might even be percentage based instead of healspray strength based).
So instead of fixing the issue directly, guess what UWE did.
<!--quoteo(post=1921512:date=Apr 3 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Apr 3 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"too powerful against marines"? This is a joke right? Medpack is powerful but gorge healing? The gorge die about 1 or max 2 shotgun hits. and his healing spray take a while to kill one marine and you said its too powerful? lol!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No trust us, the Gorge heal was too powerful against marines.
I could walk into a room with 3 marines and bunny hop around like an idiot spamming heal spray and i would be able to kill <b>AT LEAST</b> 2 of the 3 marines with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1921807:date=Apr 4 2012, 07:51 AM:name=Xostean)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xostean @ Apr 4 2012, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No trust us, the Gorge heal was too powerful against marines.
I could walk into a room with 3 marines and bunny hop around like an idiot spamming heal spray and i would be able to kill <b>AT LEAST</b> 2 of the 3 marines with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh...wut?
Fat gorges are incredibly easy to hit. 3 marines shooting at you should have taken you out in half a second.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1921809:date=Apr 4 2012, 03:56 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 4 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Video or it didnt happen, those must have been incompetent marines. gorges go down incredibly easy, even 1on1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then you must be a bad gorge. Gorge had a pretty good chance of taking a rifle marine 1on1 before these changes. Get VERY close(disrupts aim more), spam jump, hold mouse2. He shouldn't be able to pick off full hp marines like that. I still think this change is one we have been in need of, for a long time. <!--quoteo(post=1921682:date=Apr 4 2012, 02:38 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 4 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, every other lifeform doesn't benefit very much from combat healing, because skulks are very fragile and could easily die between heals, and lerks/fades move constantly and much faster than the gorge, and would die instantly if they didn't.
Onoses are the only class that is really viable and benefits greatly from healing, so nerf the effect on the onos and it functions the same as the other lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is so untrue. All lifeforms greatly benefits from healspray. But you can't follow all the lifeforms around, stay around the corner, wait for them to retreat so you can heal them.
<!--quoteo(post=1921812:date=Apr 4 2012, 08:06 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Apr 4 2012, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you must be a bad gorge. Gorge had a pretty good chance of taking a rifle marine 1on1 before these changes. Get VERY close(disrupts aim more), spam jump, hold mouse2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How often does a highly visible, slow-moving, floor-bound Gorge sneak up on a Marine?
I'm a poor Marine and I can't recall ever having killed by a Gorge's heal spray 1v1, much less 3v1.
Actually it was stupidly easy for a gorge to kill a marine with healspray, you must have just been running straight towards him to die so easily. Usually you land a spit or two then jump around like an idiot and healspray and you always win. It seems like healspray hits everywhere around the gorge.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1921568:date=Apr 3 2012, 11:55 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 3 2012, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or just directly nerf the effect on the onos and put it back where it was for everything else? Healing aliens in combat is generally not effective, the only time it is effective is on the onos, so nerfing it for the onos simply brings it in line with the general rule for the rest of the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
two things. 1) Just nerfing onos healing effectiveness, still leaves imbalance. You have to remember the way it was before this patch; the gorge could heal 200 hp per spray, and as everyone knows he could spray continuously for quite some time. this was just too much for <b>any</b> given situation. 2) Healing aliens in combat is THEE most effective method, over returning to a hive or crag, losing precious travel time. Do you play competitively? not trying to be offensive, just saying that its practically a staple in strategy to have at least one gorgie healing team mates constantly on the front lines. (esp as a lerk) and once again, at 200 HP per spray.. it was crazy potent.
and like everyone else here said, a <b>10 res <u>non combatant</u> lifeform</b> was able to kill marines very easily when up close/around a corner. i know the gorge is everyone's dearest and beloved, but balance must be considered to a degree, and while i am not remotely saying this fixes it- its a step in the right direction.
A better idea i believe would have been to lower his HP/armor so that he is protected and cared for more, and then just lessen the amount of HP per spray but <i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->keep the frequency<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>. <b>no one likes waiting in combat situations, its frustrating, </b>especially as a support role where team mates are waiting on you. Give him the ability to spray constantly but with a less effective spray, all while he is more than ever less likely to stay and fight marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1921851:date=Apr 5 2012, 04:05 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Apr 5 2012, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually it was stupidly easy for a gorge to kill a marine with healspray, you must have just been running straight towards him to die so easily. Usually you land a spit or two then jump around like an idiot and healspray and you always win. It seems like healspray hits everywhere around the gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, why dont we examine carefully all the many requirements that must all be met for a gorge to kill a marine. a) The gorge has outpositioned the marine b) The marine has a0 c) The marine cannot aim d) The marine is alone/rambo or the squad of marines cannot aim and are bad enough to clump together (clumped marines die to skulks easy anyway). e) The marine does not have a shotgun/gl/flamethrower/jetpack. f) The marine commander doesn't drop medpacks or nanoshield.
A break from any one of these conditions and the gorge does not win - simple as that. Are we really still saying that gorge was overpowered because it could exploit situational advantages to solo kill a marine? Not only do all the marine side requirements listed have to be met, but the gorge must be skillfull enough to recognise positional advantages both in his immediate area and across the map (its not just simply camping around corners). If that jumping gorge doesn't want to die, then improve your aim, run away, position yourself better, question hitreg, or god forbid work in squads.
And its not just about being able to kill marines, its about survivability. Gorges are so slow that even if you wern't actively seeking combat your now easily sniped by smart marines.
As other people have stated, there are better ways to directly address the issues with gorge support (e.g. with a pack of 4 skulks) being too strong such as making healspray have a set healing ammount that is spread evenly to all targets in range instead of multiplying.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
ehhh... i have a problem with some of this, as
a) the gorge just has to be around the corner, hiding, as he can do sometimes. this isnt exactly "outpositioned", and neither is jumping around a marine frantically. b) gorges are common around A0 marines, its always part of the early game, so i dont see why this matters? also see d). c) i can aim, and so can members of ensl and still often we were killed by an annoying tank gorge. d) this is true a lone marine is weaker, but this is true for all players on either team. <i>a lone marine should still be able to kill a <b>non combatant builder class!</b></i> e) see b) f) this shouldn't be a requirement to survive every encounter with a gorge?
i dont consider gorges "slow" when they can belly slide on and off infestation now. also, he should be a class that is protected by other life forms, and when said lifeforms die, he should retreat somewhat.
<!--quoteo(post=1921882:date=Apr 5 2012, 06:44 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 5 2012, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ehhh... i have a problem with some of this, as
a) the gorge just has to be around the corner, hiding, as he can do sometimes. this isnt exactly "outpositioned", and neither is jumping around a marine frantically. b) gorges are common around A0 marines, its always part of the early game, so i dont see why this matters? also see d). c) i can aim, and so can members of ensl and still often we were killed by an annoying tank gorge. d) this is true a lone marine is weaker, but this is true for all players on either team. <i>a lone marine should still be able to kill a <b>non combatant builder class!</b></i> e) see b) f) this shouldn't be a requirement to survive every encounter with a gorge?
i dont consider gorges "slow" when they can belly slide on and off infestation now. also, he should be a class that is protected by other life forms, and when said lifeforms die, he should retreat somewhat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think i should repeat what i meant above. All of the conditions must be met in order for the gorge to be reasonably able to solo kill a marine. I don't mean anything else but this - a,b,c,d,e,f must exist for g to occur.
a) Theres clearly more than just hiding around corners. Simply hiding in a corner blind as a gorge is suicide. From the decision making standpoint of the gorge, there is nothing to say that instead of one marine coming around the corner, 2 or 3 come around instead and murder you. This requires the gorge to reveal his position when checking for marine numbers which negates the hidden corner advantage. b) Yea, maybe think of it this way. You only see gorges around a0 marines because gorges around a1+ doesnt work. a0 surprisingly just happens to be part of the early game. A 20 res upgrade that is core to the marine tech tree anyway totally shuts down combat gorge effectiveness (this + shotguns) which is exactly the reason why you didn't see aggressive gorge play past the early game. This is like saying skulks are overpowered because they can 2bite you in the early game. c) I have no doubt you ensl guys can aim - I've played a fair few games with you guys. However what you say is anecdotal and doesn't fit with the cold hard damage maths that are actually present which is what i am referring to when talking about aim. Frankly it shouldn't be difficult to land shots on a big fat slow gorge that has no air acceleration, and for the sake of balance discussion i am disregarding any hit reg issues with jumping gorges (if they exist). It should at most take 50 bullets to kill a cara gorge, let alone you have a backup 250 damage potential sitting in slot number 2. When and if i die to a lone gorge i feel i deserve it for missing too many bullets and/or moving incorrectly. d) A lone marine <b>can</b> kill a noncombatant builder class. see c and my first sentence. e) Shotguns are very much a part of the early game and gl's even more so now with the aa cost reduction. f) See my first sentence. This is just another point of arguement that supports the idea that you should really be feeling responsible as a marine team if you're dying to gorges rather than blaming it on gorges being OP.
Yes gorges are slow. If you tried to bellyslide in any recent build you would find that bellyslide literally adds close to no additional speed for any useful ammount of time past 1 second at a huge cost to directional mobility, jumping, with a long cd to boot. Gorges retreating already was occuring pre nerf. Infact now there is no point retreating at all due to the survivability point i have already mentioned in regard to marine sniping.
No one is really talking about the most important role of a gorge, and you saw this alot in NS1 and NS1 combat
and that is a gorge under a hive defending it from marine assaults and arc attacks/ (ie seige attacks)
This added alot of strategy to the game the gorge had to 1 stay alive during the attack, 2 marines had to selectively attack the gorge, because it was the force keeping the hive alive, then aliens became there to defend the hive and keep them out...
This whole ballence is ruined right now in ns2, i feel the gorge should be a focused Defensive class
<!--quoteo(post=1921959:date=Apr 4 2012, 06:45 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Apr 4 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone else feel really bad when they kill a Gorge? I just feel like, "sorry little buddy, you didn't stand a chance :("<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A little bit. I sort of hate marines who gun me down as one, too. In the past, escape was an exciting race to the corner, where anything could happen but a little luck went a long way. Now it's just a futile slide towards death; even if you make it around the corner, they'll just sprint after you and finish you off.
All Gorges ever want to do are build and heal, and with the high building costs and recent healspray changes, they really can't do either very well. The poignant question that every deflated gorge corpse asks is, "what did I ever do to you?"
Comments
Yeah, but the problem in this case is that hydras suck
You shouldn't design healspray around hydras. You should design it around 'working with teammates in combat' - unfortunately, because some players worked with their onos teammates it got turned into a crappier mechanic in a knee-jerk reaction.
<!--quoteo(post=1921272:date=Apr 3 2012, 02:14 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Apr 3 2012, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Gorge-Onos combo is too powerful, then Onos needs its base armor reduced. Once the Onos is stripped of its armor, it begins taking TerribleTerrible damage, especially Shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct. It's bad design to make 2 changes at once that do the same thing (onos hide reduction, gorge healspray change) because it's harder to evaluate the effect of each one individually. On top of that, one of those changes probably wasn't needed at all since, as people mentioned, killing healbot gorges was not difficult (and in fact the flamethrower had an important role in breaking up onos-gorge pairs).
The problem is this is what happens with basically any game that lets the players voice their opinions. If enough paying customers say everything is unfair and broken and "OP", people tend to lose their cool and make way too many changes way too fast.
I've seen gorges run in with an Onos attacking a base of marines who have already been thoroughly beaten and are in complete disarray. Other than that however, any gorge that steps foot in a prepared marine base, regardless of who they are accompanying, is instantly killed by the closest marine. It really is as easy as /use gun on Gorge. Gorge is dead.
Er, why?
Like I said, every other lifeform doesn't benefit very much from combat healing, because skulks are very fragile and could easily die between heals, and lerks/fades move constantly and much faster than the gorge, and would die instantly if they didn't.
Onoses are the only class that is really viable and benefits greatly from healing, so nerf the effect on the onos and it functions the same as the other lifeforms.
I can tell you right now that this is a problem that is due to how healspray affects certain buildings. Simple damage vs healing maths does not support the situation you described otherwise. Healspray has for a very long time now healed whips, hydras, cysts for alot more than it should (i think it might even be percentage based instead of healspray strength based).
So instead of fixing the issue directly, guess what UWE did.
Medpack is powerful but gorge healing?
The gorge die about 1 or max 2 shotgun hits.
and his healing spray take a while to kill one marine and you said its too powerful? lol!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No trust us, the Gorge heal was too powerful against marines.
I could walk into a room with 3 marines and bunny hop around like an idiot spamming heal spray and i would be able to kill <b>AT LEAST</b> 2 of the 3 marines with it.
I could walk into a room with 3 marines and bunny hop around like an idiot spamming heal spray and i would be able to kill <b>AT LEAST</b> 2 of the 3 marines with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh...wut?
Fat gorges are incredibly easy to hit. 3 marines shooting at you should have taken you out in half a second.
Then you must be a bad gorge.
Gorge had a pretty good chance of taking a rifle marine 1on1 before these changes.
Get VERY close(disrupts aim more), spam jump, hold mouse2.
He shouldn't be able to pick off full hp marines like that.
I still think this change is one we have been in need of, for a long time.
<!--quoteo(post=1921682:date=Apr 4 2012, 02:38 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 4 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, every other lifeform doesn't benefit very much from combat healing, because skulks are very fragile and could easily die between heals, and lerks/fades move constantly and much faster than the gorge, and would die instantly if they didn't.
Onoses are the only class that is really viable and benefits greatly from healing, so nerf the effect on the onos and it functions the same as the other lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is so untrue. All lifeforms greatly benefits from healspray.
But you can't follow all the lifeforms around, stay around the corner, wait for them to retreat so you can heal them.
Gorge had a pretty good chance of taking a rifle marine 1on1 before these changes.
Get VERY close(disrupts aim more), spam jump, hold mouse2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How often does a highly visible, slow-moving, floor-bound Gorge sneak up on a Marine?
I'm a poor Marine and I can't recall ever having killed by a Gorge's heal spray 1v1, much less 3v1.
I'm a poor Marine and I can't recall ever having killed by a Gorge's heal spray 1v1, much less 3v1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then either the gorge is bad or the marines i fought were bad.
Either way, the heal spray was more than capable of killing marines in superior numbers.
Healing aliens in combat is generally not effective, the only time it is effective is on the onos, so nerfing it for the onos simply brings it in line with the general rule for the rest of the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
two things.
1) Just nerfing onos healing effectiveness, still leaves imbalance. You have to remember the way it was before this patch; the gorge could heal 200 hp per spray, and as everyone knows he could spray continuously for quite some time. this was just too much for <b>any</b> given situation.
2) Healing aliens in combat is THEE most effective method, over returning to a hive or crag, losing precious travel time. Do you play competitively? not trying to be offensive, just saying that its practically a staple in strategy to have at least one gorgie healing team mates constantly on the front lines. (esp as a lerk) and once again, at 200 HP per spray.. it was crazy potent.
and like everyone else here said, a <b>10 res <u>non combatant</u> lifeform</b> was able to kill marines very easily when up close/around a corner. i know the gorge is everyone's dearest and beloved, but balance must be considered to a degree, and while i am not remotely saying this fixes it- its a step in the right direction.
A better idea i believe would have been to lower his HP/armor so that he is protected and cared for more, and then just lessen the amount of HP per spray but <i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->keep the frequency<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>. <b>no one likes waiting in combat situations, its frustrating, </b>especially as a support role where team mates are waiting on you. Give him the ability to spray constantly but with a less effective spray, all while he is more than ever less likely to stay and fight marines.
Well, why dont we examine carefully all the many requirements that must all be met for a gorge to kill a marine.
a) The gorge has outpositioned the marine
b) The marine has a0
c) The marine cannot aim
d) The marine is alone/rambo or the squad of marines cannot aim and are bad enough to clump together (clumped marines die to skulks easy anyway).
e) The marine does not have a shotgun/gl/flamethrower/jetpack.
f) The marine commander doesn't drop medpacks or nanoshield.
A break from any one of these conditions and the gorge does not win - simple as that. Are we really still saying that gorge was overpowered because it could exploit situational advantages to solo kill a marine? Not only do all the marine side requirements listed have to be met, but the gorge must be skillfull enough to recognise positional advantages both in his immediate area and across the map (its not just simply camping around corners). If that jumping gorge doesn't want to die, then improve your aim, run away, position yourself better, question hitreg, or god forbid work in squads.
And its not just about being able to kill marines, its about survivability. Gorges are so slow that even if you wern't actively seeking combat your now easily sniped by smart marines.
As other people have stated, there are better ways to directly address the issues with gorge support (e.g. with a pack of 4 skulks) being too strong such as making healspray have a set healing ammount that is spread evenly to all targets in range instead of multiplying.
a) the gorge just has to be around the corner, hiding, as he can do sometimes. this isnt exactly "outpositioned", and neither is jumping around a marine frantically.
b) gorges are common around A0 marines, its always part of the early game, so i dont see why this matters? also see d).
c) i can aim, and so can members of ensl and still often we were killed by an annoying tank gorge.
d) this is true a lone marine is weaker, but this is true for all players on either team. <i>a lone marine should still be able to kill a <b>non combatant builder class!</b></i>
e) see b)
f) this shouldn't be a requirement to survive every encounter with a gorge?
i dont consider gorges "slow" when they can belly slide on and off infestation now. also, he should be a class that is protected by other life forms, and when said lifeforms die, he should retreat somewhat.
a) the gorge just has to be around the corner, hiding, as he can do sometimes. this isnt exactly "outpositioned", and neither is jumping around a marine frantically.
b) gorges are common around A0 marines, its always part of the early game, so i dont see why this matters? also see d).
c) i can aim, and so can members of ensl and still often we were killed by an annoying tank gorge.
d) this is true a lone marine is weaker, but this is true for all players on either team. <i>a lone marine should still be able to kill a <b>non combatant builder class!</b></i>
e) see b)
f) this shouldn't be a requirement to survive every encounter with a gorge?
i dont consider gorges "slow" when they can belly slide on and off infestation now. also, he should be a class that is protected by other life forms, and when said lifeforms die, he should retreat somewhat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think i should repeat what i meant above. All of the conditions must be met in order for the gorge to be reasonably able to solo kill a marine. I don't mean anything else but this - a,b,c,d,e,f must exist for g to occur.
a) Theres clearly more than just hiding around corners. Simply hiding in a corner blind as a gorge is suicide. From the decision making standpoint of the gorge, there is nothing to say that instead of one marine coming around the corner, 2 or 3 come around instead and murder you. This requires the gorge to reveal his position when checking for marine numbers which negates the hidden corner advantage.
b) Yea, maybe think of it this way. You only see gorges around a0 marines because gorges around a1+ doesnt work. a0 surprisingly just happens to be part of the early game. A 20 res upgrade that is core to the marine tech tree anyway totally shuts down combat gorge effectiveness (this + shotguns) which is exactly the reason why you didn't see aggressive gorge play past the early game. This is like saying skulks are overpowered because they can 2bite you in the early game.
c) I have no doubt you ensl guys can aim - I've played a fair few games with you guys. However what you say is anecdotal and doesn't fit with the cold hard damage maths that are actually present which is what i am referring to when talking about aim. Frankly it shouldn't be difficult to land shots on a big fat slow gorge that has no air acceleration, and for the sake of balance discussion i am disregarding any hit reg issues with jumping gorges (if they exist). It should at most take 50 bullets to kill a cara gorge, let alone you have a backup 250 damage potential sitting in slot number 2. When and if i die to a lone gorge i feel i deserve it for missing too many bullets and/or moving incorrectly.
d) A lone marine <b>can</b> kill a noncombatant builder class. see c and my first sentence.
e) Shotguns are very much a part of the early game and gl's even more so now with the aa cost reduction.
f) See my first sentence. This is just another point of arguement that supports the idea that you should really be feeling responsible as a marine team if you're dying to gorges rather than blaming it on gorges being OP.
Yes gorges are slow. If you tried to bellyslide in any recent build you would find that bellyslide literally adds close to no additional speed for any useful ammount of time past 1 second at a huge cost to directional mobility, jumping, with a long cd to boot. Gorges retreating already was occuring pre nerf. Infact now there is no point retreating at all due to the survivability point i have already mentioned in regard to marine sniping.
I couldn't more agree on every argument.
and that is a gorge under a hive defending it from marine assaults and arc attacks/ (ie seige attacks)
This added alot of strategy to the game the gorge had to 1 stay alive during the attack, 2 marines had to selectively attack the gorge, because it was the force keeping the hive alive, then aliens became there to defend the hive and keep them out...
This whole ballence is ruined right now in ns2, i feel the gorge should be a focused Defensive class
A little bit. I sort of hate marines who gun me down as one, too. In the past, escape was an exciting race to the corner, where anything could happen but a little luck went a long way. Now it's just a futile slide towards death; even if you make it around the corner, they'll just sprint after you and finish you off.
All Gorges ever want to do are build and heal, and with the high building costs and recent healspray changes, they really can't do either very well. The poignant question that every deflated gorge corpse asks is, "what did I ever do to you?"