Why are Marines so limited in Pres expenditure?
Techercizer
7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Potentially addressing things like Fade and Onos dominance</div>More and more in these recent builds, as my team has gotten swamped by Oni time and time again, as I've tried to LMG a fade, while knowing in my heart my attempts were futile, I've come to wonder how imbalanced the current Pres model is. Currently, any alien can go Onos at hive 1 without a single input from their commander; this is all fine and good, and it keeps what little of the asymmetric horde gameplay is leftover from NS1. The problem is that when compared to the Marines tres requirements for their various upgrades, a clear difference starts to emerge between what the two sides can and can't afford to field.
Mechanically, a 30 res lerk shouldn't be a walk in the park for an equally skilled lmg marine (if played right). Mechanically, a 50 res Fade and 75 res Onos should have good and better chances against a 20 res shotgun, and a clear strength over a 0 res LMG. Mechanically, using pres cost for balance makes perfect sense. Practically however, Lerks, Fades, and Oni are available for anyone who can afford them. Meanwhile, Marines must slowly eek their way towards higher spending options such as JPs and T2 weapons, and they do so at the notable expense of important infrastructure elements like upgrades and PGs. This is a consequence of untying lifeforms from hives, and thus removing the closest Kharaa analogue to the Marine tech progression.
I can't tell you how many times I've been stuck with 100 pres as a Marine, yet slowly watching my team lose due to a lack of outlet for my resources. Mines aren't an answer to this problem; they're a good element and provide important services, but at a certain point they provide diminishing returns, and they leave a lot to be desired as major resource sinks. Meanwhile, while I'm sitting around waiting for my team to try and scramble towards FTs or JPs, Kharaa can have any lifeform they want with any upgrade they want for a much lower price.
I feel like this discrepancy in the ability to spend Pres for both teams is a major contributor to the current perceived balance between them; if both teams have 80res for their players, Kharaa can field that in full force, while Marines are often stuck playing as though they're much poorer. The problem then becomes that if an 75 res Onos can beat a 25 res GL, he can do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, because that's all the marines are allowed to buy until their commander unlocks something new.
Mechanically, a 30 res lerk shouldn't be a walk in the park for an equally skilled lmg marine (if played right). Mechanically, a 50 res Fade and 75 res Onos should have good and better chances against a 20 res shotgun, and a clear strength over a 0 res LMG. Mechanically, using pres cost for balance makes perfect sense. Practically however, Lerks, Fades, and Oni are available for anyone who can afford them. Meanwhile, Marines must slowly eek their way towards higher spending options such as JPs and T2 weapons, and they do so at the notable expense of important infrastructure elements like upgrades and PGs. This is a consequence of untying lifeforms from hives, and thus removing the closest Kharaa analogue to the Marine tech progression.
I can't tell you how many times I've been stuck with 100 pres as a Marine, yet slowly watching my team lose due to a lack of outlet for my resources. Mines aren't an answer to this problem; they're a good element and provide important services, but at a certain point they provide diminishing returns, and they leave a lot to be desired as major resource sinks. Meanwhile, while I'm sitting around waiting for my team to try and scramble towards FTs or JPs, Kharaa can have any lifeform they want with any upgrade they want for a much lower price.
I feel like this discrepancy in the ability to spend Pres for both teams is a major contributor to the current perceived balance between them; if both teams have 80res for their players, Kharaa can field that in full force, while Marines are often stuck playing as though they're much poorer. The problem then becomes that if an 75 res Onos can beat a 25 res GL, he can do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, because that's all the marines are allowed to buy until their commander unlocks something new.
Comments
but you have a point especially as new weapons, traits, and skills are introduced in to the game.
I think the spirit of the marines working together has to be maintained. If it is the _effectiveness of a marine squad_ that is required to thwart the aliens, then maybe we unlock some weapons and PLACE the tech incentives on UPGRADES.
or define the marine tech tree to either offensive items or supportive items, so a commander can easily spend TRes on a clear route as quickly as possible. Do we need to push for weapons early? or are we doing well enough and we focus on a support item path?
..just some thoughts.
The fact is that at the current point, Kharaa (in particular Skulk) maneuverability and Marine sluggishness basically forces the team to fragment if it wants to ward off RT attacks in a 6v6 match. Turrets are far too expensive and riddled with blindspots to be a solution, and PGs seem to be both costly and shunned by the competitive community as a whole for being meatgrinders. Public games aren't as bad, but the problem is still there. Players don't want to stand around babysitting resource towers for minutes on end, and if you do manage to split up your forces you still leave yourself vulnerable to a strong Kharaa push for main base.
If UWE wants to balance Marines for squads, they need to start making it allowable for squads to exist. Right now the only time I see them is when Marines group up to assault a hive, gambling that they'll be able to end the game quickly so they won't have to worry about losing nodes.
I think your first problem is you're looking at this like you have to defend everything. But it is a competitive game. If you lose something, that's fine, as long as you cause equal or more damage.
1 marine will beat 1 skulk a majority of the time if that skulk is attacking a RT. Leaving 1 or 2 to defend while you have groups of 1-3 marines push RTs will usually kill alien RTs while defending your own relatively well (good use of nanoshield on marines, welders and medpacks will allow 1 marine to defend 2-3 RTs no problem).
More on topic:
I don't think you can look at this as a pres vs pres kind of thing. Weapons and lifeforms interact differently depending on the situation. That said, I think 2-3 shotguns does pretty well to counter a fade. 1 shotgun also stands a decent shot against 1 lerk. Multiple player battles are a bit more dynamic and really don't flesh out by adding up pres. You should have plenty of stuff to buy, though. 2-3 shotguns in a marine group is always important. Mines can be very helpful. A welder to heal up armor on the push. If you're not spending your pres, it's because your whoring it for flamers or GLs. I don't think that is a fault with the game, but more so your decision not to buy any low tech items. It's like saving for onos and then losing because you didn't have a fade or gorge.
p.s. the onos is completely broken coming out early game.
would be another thing to tune & base tech would be most important, but I could see layering on a pres buff that has a +/- associated with it.
The limit of resource values as RTs are swapped constantly goes as follows. Tres decreases because of the cost of new extractors, while Pres continues to increase, albeit more slowly than from secure extractors. Thus, as the frequency with which RTs are swapped approaches infinity, Tres = 0 and Pres = C, a constant; this analysis is time-independent. Obviously RTs can't be swapped infinitely many times a second, but they can be swapped once every minute, or once every 20 seconds, especially when you consider that there are multiple RTs to be swapped. If the RT doesn't pay for itself, that's a Tres drain.
That example in place, we have to look at how these resource values impact teams. Marines are broke. They have all Pres and no Tres, and can't afford to build any buildings or research anything to spend pres on. Their resource values are effectively 0 for both fields. Meanwhile, Aliens are incapable of getting upgrade chambers or hive-related buildings. They can, however, go Gorge, Lerk, Fade, and Onos, depending on the value of C and proceed to obliterate the marine team.
The point of this is basically that Marines need Tres more than Kharaa do, and by swapping extractors a lot, Kharaa gain the upper hand by suppressing marine upgrades, weapons, and infrastructure at the cost of a semi-useful second hive (mainly for Fades) and upgrades that are probably no longer needed with the reduced marine team strength.
The limit of resource values as RTs are swapped constantly goes as follows. Tres goes to 0 because of the cost of new extractors, while Pres continues to increase, albiet more slowly than from secure extractors. Thus, as the frequency with which RTs are swapped approaches infinity, tres = 0 and pres = C, a constant. Obviously RTs can't be swapped infinitely many times a second, but they can be swapped once every minute, or once every 20 seconds, especially when you consider that there are multiple RTs to be swapped. If the RT doesn't pay for itself, that's a tres drain.
That example in place, we have to look at how these resource values impact teams. Marines are broke. They have all Pres and no Tres, and can't afford to build any buildings or research anything to spend pres on. Their resource values are effectively 0 for both fields. Meanwhile, Aliens are incapable of getting upgrade chambers or hive-related buildings. They can, however, go Gorge, Lerk, Fade, and Onos, depending on the value of C and proceed to obliterate the marine team.
The point of this is basically that Marines need Tres more than Kharaa do, and by swapping extractors a lot, kharaa gain the upper hand by suppressing marine upgrades, weapons, and infrastructure at the cost of a semi-useful second hive (mainly for Fades) and upgrades that are probably no longer needed with the reduced marine team strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this scenario, marines win with a simple push because they delayed tech for so long. Well, that's how it works in actual games. Marines >> Aliens before lifeforms come out. The longer you can delay lifeforms, the better chance you have to win as a marine.
Also, aggressively attacking RTs, as marine, is the best way to protect your own RTs. You force skulks home to defend and if you happen to win that 1v1 or 2v2 engagement, you easily kill the RT. Even if the skulk wins the 1v1, a marine can typically get back to the RT before it dies. Marines kill alien RTs quicker than aliens kill marine RTs.
Also, aggressively attacking RTs, as marine, is the best way to protect your own RTs. You force skulks home to defend and if you happen to win that 1v1 or 2v2 engagement, you easily kill the RT. Even if the skulk wins the 1v1, a marine can typically get back to the RT before it dies. Marines kill alien RTs quicker than aliens kill marine RTs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That analysis was time-independent. You can't say what sort of rush will or won't work without specifying C, which turns the solution from a general one into a case-specific one.
Yes, early rushes do work. The point I was making though was that Kharaa lifeforms <i>can</i> come out in a no-tres environment, and that the dependence of Marines on Tres to unlock spending options creates a power lag. Even if Marines get Exosuits implemented, for example, they'll still have to survive 80res Onos rushes long enough to afford get a protolab down and get through the basic research for heavies. That is unless they rush, which is a good way to get obliterated by Skulks and other cheap lifeforms, lose map control, and wind up facing Oni even sooner (provided they don't just get destroyed in their spawn).
I think all of this stems from unlocking Kharaa lifeforms from hives while leaving marine weapons and technology locked to expensive hive-like buildings and paths.
Yes, early rushes do work. The point I was making though was that Kharaa lifeforms <i>can</i> come out in a no-tres environment, and that the dependence of Marines on Tres to unlock spending options creates a power lag. Even if Marines get Exosuits implemented, for example, they'll still have to survive 80res Onos rushes long enough to afford get a protolab down and get through the basic research for heavies. That is unless they rush, which is a good way to get obliterated by Skulks and other cheap lifeforms, lose map control, and wind up facing Oni even sooner (provided they don't just get destroyed in their spawn).
I think all of this stems from unlocking Kharaa lifeforms from hives while leaving marine weapons and technology locked to expensive hive-like buildings and paths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree that onos are broken. Unfortunately, UWE doesn't seem to agree. They've avoided doing any serious nerf to the 7-10 minute onos for a solid three patches now despite it destroying the "competitive" aspect of NS2 -- see 95% alien win rates in gathers/scrims.
I don't think this problem is caused by the marine pres problems that you're stating. I think this is because the onos @hive1 is pretty much as good as the onos @hive3. The aliens are basically getting an end game unit 7-10 minutes into the game when marines are sitting on maybe 1-1 upgrades without flamethrowers/turrets/jps/exos. I think the onos balance @hive 1 is the problem here.
To show that the onos is the one out of whack here, look at the other Alien tech unit -- the fade. The fade is a hive 2 lifeform. When you hatch him at hive 1, he is very vulnerable because he can only blink 10 or 15m. It is very easy for a coordinated marine team to take down hive 1 fades. That's not to say that hive 1 fades are worthless, just risky and vulnerable. It's very easy to lose a hive 1 fade compared to a hive 2 fade. Hive 1 onos? Hive 3 onos? It doesn't matter. That's where the balance needs to happen. Hive 1 onos should be a risk. Hive 2 onos more acceptable. Hive 3 onos, beast mode on.
There's no real good counter ATM for a wall of onii. Will this change soon? Hopefully. Until then, yeah, there's a balance issue, but I'm not sure it's marines being unable to spend PRes.
With hive lifeforms unlocked.. why are weapons still locked?
The other thing is
assuming things stay the same
a simple 'balancing' act would be to adjust the pres -> tres ratio...
ie if pres gains slower.
Less lifeforms.. more pain for losing that lifeform (same for weapons/jp/exo of course)
This isn't gonna be a good idea since marine weapons are a lot cheaper then alien lifeforms...
Here's my 2 cents:
give marines the option to "donate" pres into the armory to unlock a weapon.
If comm struggles to get enough Tres but the marines are stacked with 100 Pres and nothing to buy let them donate Pres into the weapon research.
Here's how i see it: Enter armory - right click on a not yet researched weapon - choose amount of res to donate to the upgrade.
Then the comm can get the upgrade at a lower Tres cost. Of course this shouldn't be 1 donated Pres = -1 Tres.
This could also be applied to a prototype lab to make JP and EXO more accesible.
Any good?
Yes Onos throws this off and thumps everything, but that's because marines don't have exo suit yet. Once exo and Rail guns show up it's going to be a whole different ball game. But I do seriously suggest trying to get advanced armory for weapon and JP selection earlier if possible. Makes a huge difference.
On a whole I say Pres is currently balanced and good until late game when Onos shows up.
7 minutes triple onos is becoming the standard now. Is that late game? I don't think so.
Aliens will always hold an advantage 1on1, and always have in NS 1 as well. A 50 P.res Fade will have no trouble dealing with a 50 p.res Marine. This is fine, and makes the game asymmetric. You only get an issue when there's just as much, or almost as many 50 p.res fades as there are marines, which imo is the biggest issue in NS 2 currently. In addition, I think aliens should require at least some T.res investment before receiving fades and onos at 1-hive. This would slow down their tech progression, bring it closer to the level of marines, benefit the early game balance and make losing early RTs much more detrimental to aliens as well. (Currently aliens have a lot less things to throw T.res atm which means they can replace harvesters a lot easier as well)
I agree Marines need a way to spend res effectively in game, without neccesarily relying on commander researches.
As a possible solution, how about making all weapons available at anytime, but with an increased Pres cost. Then, once researched by comm, the guns are sold for their normal price. This gives marines a choice early game, spend all their res to get a weapon early, or wait for comm to research and reduce costs.
Making aliens require a Tres investment, before fades and onos, as mentioned by Xarius, is also a good idea.
It's your job as a marine to use your pres as effectively as possible while the commander works on getting you that essential tech. If you can't hold your early game res or aren't able to maintain an even engagement win rate (tug of war, eye for an eye) you likely will have zero upgrades by by 7-8 minutes and that fade / onos wave is going to steamroll you. Its not impossible that you can come back from several early game losses but your probability of success is wears down as the game goes on.
You should note that they changed the onos armor penetration calculations for marine LMGs making marines more effective. Shotguns aren't that effective against onos on a pres basis and that isn't the role it excels at. More often I see marines being able to deal with the 7-8 minute onos wave as long as they work as a team. If you work as a team and 4-5 marines can mow down 3/4 onos if they pick their engagements right. If you can deal with fades and onos the aliens are in a position of weakness.
If your sitting on 100 pres it implies one of two things:
1) You are on the clearly dominant team and winning most of the engagements (not dying), this is a good thing
2) You aren't using your resources properly (not dropping mines and buying higher tech weapons)
Mines.
Mines everywhere.
Put them on low ceiling arches where lerks may fly by. Put them in vents. Put them all around buildings. Carry them with you and drop them on the floor when you get close to an area where there's going to be some fighting.
If he wants to save and research fades and then blink as fast as possible, then he will be sacrificing other upgrades for skulks, gorges and lerks, or base defence/structures that will make them weaker. Just the same as if marines decide to save for GLs they might not have PGs as quick or weapons and armour upgrades.
Unless a team is completely dominating the map they shouldn't be able to get all tech at once (i.e. fades + onos + lerk bile bomb etc.)
IMO this would be the best way to balance the game. It removes the focus of getting a 2nd hive and puts it all on the battle for RTs and res. The more tres you get, the quicker you can get upgrades and higher tech units. It gives the commander a viable choice, do I save and invest in higher lifeforms sacrificing combat effectiveness now, or do we get more upgrades for skulks and lerks but delay getting the higher lifeforms till later.
In general I don't think there are enough upgrades for aliens. Even things like parasite, hive sight, infestation giving vision, lerk gas, extra gorge buildings etc. can all be researchable tech, rather than just being giving to the aliens for nothing. This gives them a tech tree to move through just like the marines and creates interesting strategic choices of what to spend your valuable resources on.
a) make upgrades more expensive depending on how expensive your lifeform is (so skulks scale to late game better as well)
b) lower starting pres
c) allow more ways to <b>earn </b>pres, such as destroying enemy RTs etc. (these things already count toward that arbitrary "score" number)
After saving 15 res for mines or saving further for shotguns, the way it stands the 25 pres at the start gives all the marines shotguns or after saving for a minute all the skulks the ability to lerk. A lower starting pRes is likely to eliminate most of the excess pRes some are "having issues" and may change the game play for the better. For now you can just buy lots of mines instead.
After saving 15 res for mines or saving further for shotguns, the way it stands the 25 pres at the start gives all the marines shotguns or after saving for a minute all the skulks the ability to lerk. A lower starting pRes is likely to eliminate most of the excess pRes some are "having issues" and may change the game play for the better. For now you can just buy lots of mines instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea, the early game, marines with LMG vs. Skulks is too short atm!
I'd like to support this if you'd post it as an own thread! :)
I think this is an awesome idea, always found it silly that carapace as a skulk costs me as much as carapace for an onos.
Especially considering that Carapace buffs an Onos a lot more than it does a Skulk. I think there's an order of magnitude difference in there, at the least.
I used to secure a decent number of rt's, grab tech, and start Starcraft Broodward TvZ pushes. Doesn't really work anywhere near as good as securing map control all game long instead. Constant soft arc assaults don't really fail when you've killed their economy.
I completely agree with the early game being too short. I cannot even imagine how deadly an entire team of carapace shadow stepping fades would be. Early game is obviously leaning towards aliens right now, some initial pres reduction wouldn't break the game.
I think I've evolved carapace once for skulk, ever. Much better to respawn at base with full health instead of trekking all the way back, save a couple res.