Killing enemies = no extra res?

mega_stihl

Normaly I don't watch my personal res. I just go around and play the game. But today I noticed that when you kill enemies, you do NOT get extra resources. What's up with that? I mean, that's taking away the point of killing enemies... Then what's the point of having "personal" res at all?

DJPenguin

the point of killing enemies is so they don't destroy your buildings which give you personal res. tough logic i know.

Mag1cWalker

<!--quoteo(post=1921569:date=Apr 3 2012, 08:56 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Apr 3 2012, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the point of killing enemies is so they don't destroy your buildings which give you personal res. tough logic i know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


+1

extollo

you can read in the design doc why there are personal res, but the primary reason is to help maintaining balance in both small and large games.

rfk has been debated a ton here, unfortunately i think "rfk" is too short to search for :)


this games isnt like others where you get points/money/whathaveyou for kills & buy individual buffs. the rate is increased by nabbing/defending more resource towers. that flow rate controls how quickly and how many of the higher valued weapons or lifeforms can appear in the game over time .

Dghelneshi

RFK has the issue of providing a team locked down in their own base with no additional res towers to still get personal resources for upgrades, which makes games take longer, especially those games which should have been a win by the opposing team half an hour ago.

It also doesn't feel right, as killing is not the only objective in this game and others like building or welding stuff would also need personal res incentives, which in turn can become somewhat exploitable.

paradoxum

When I first started playing NS2 I thought killing things gave me personal Res because of the +5, +10 etc, but I figured out it was just "Score Points" which are mostly meaningless.

internetexplorer

I really like RFK as a mechanic for games like this, but it's difficult to convince anyone of it. There are good arguments for both sides, and I think the issue hasn't been fully explored. It's too bad RFK was removed before half the game's content was in place for people to use and experiment with, I think.

DJPenguin

if rfk were in, people would be going onos 5 minutes into the game. unlike marines who would need to wait for the commander to research their late game items like exo. besides that balance act, 5 minutes equaling end game is dumb.

Deadzone

<!--quoteo(post=1921651:date=Apr 3 2012, 06:51 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Apr 3 2012, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if rfk were in, people would be going onos 5 minutes into the game. unlike marines who would need to wait for the commander to research their late game items like exo. besides that balance act, 5 minutes equaling end game is dumb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

^this

Not to mention if your team is doing well, you should have plenty of res even without RFK. I rarely lack shotgun resources, even if I can't get a jp EVERY life... such hardships, I know! :o

internetexplorer

<!--quoteo(post=1921651:date=Apr 3 2012, 07:51 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Apr 3 2012, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if rfk were in, people would be going onos 5 minutes into the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

explain.

Deadzone

<!--quoteo(post=1921662:date=Apr 3 2012, 07:27 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 3 2012, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->explain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Without RFK, people hit onos in 7 minutes. This is fact. If even an average skulk player got RFK, they would easily hit onos in 5-6 minutes. A really good skulk player? 4 wouldn't surprise me.

internetexplorer

<!--quoteo(post=1921666:date=Apr 3 2012, 08:36 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Apr 3 2012, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without RFK, people hit onos in 7 minutes. This is fact. If even an average skulk player got RFK, they would easily hit onos in 5-6 minutes. A really good skulk player? 4 wouldn't surprise me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

that's assuming the rest game of the game wouldn't ever be changed to accomodate RFK, which is a silly weak basis for an argument :)

Imagine if everyone started with 0 pres and got 2 pres per kill. It would take a long time to get lerks out (let alone onos) even if you had res towers under control. There are plenty of ways to go about adding RFK back in, without ruining the game.

Corpsey

<!--quoteo(post=1921681:date=Apr 3 2012, 09:22 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 3 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine if everyone started with 0 pres<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

But this is not the system currently in place..? So your argument is somewhat invalid..

Squidget

<!--quoteo(post=1921627:date=Apr 3 2012, 06:39 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 3 2012, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like RFK as a mechanic for games like this, but it's difficult to convince anyone of it. There are good arguments for both sides, and I think the issue hasn't been fully explored. It's too bad RFK was removed before half the game's content was in place for people to use and experiment with, I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's been explored EXHAUSTIVELY. It simply doesn't work well. Primarily we end up with perpetual Fades. RFK causes a runaway effect, turning the game into one-sided walkover due to even the smallest difference in skill level.

Note that the issue isn't balance, better skilled players will win either way. It's the other negatives:


<ul><li>The game's already steep curve gets even worse, making the game even less noob friendly.</li><li>It encourages outright hostility to new players. With RFK can actually be DISADVANTAGOUS to fill in the bottom of a roster with new players. In the current model, a player can be useless but rarely harmful. They are still a warm body that absorbs some bullets. Not with RFK.</li><li>It completely skews the game away from non-combat classes. Kills, kills, everything's gotta be kills. Screw those Lerks and Gorges, who die rarely but kill rarely. Gotta get Kills. All Fades, all the time. Leads to a more shallow game.</li><li>Skews the game away from team effort and towards superstars.</li></ul>None of this is theory. I saw ALL of this while RFK was in the game, and was elated when it was removed.

RFK is a solution in search of a problem. There is NO REASON FOR RFK. It solves absolutely no problem in the game whatsoever, except ego gratification. Simple principle of design: if you don't need it, don't include it. It was tried, and then removed, from the beta for a reason: because it's a crap game mechanic that makes the game less fun.

internetexplorer

See, that's what I mean when I say there are good arguments against it!

gerryisonfya

[dumb mode on]
How should that work out? Kill Aliens and then put their carcass on ebay see what you get?
Or as Aliens take their armor & weapons to manufacture them into manure? [dump mode off]

Ok I see.... aliens could digest them....

kingmob

<!--quoteo(post=1921693:date=Apr 3 2012, 09:29 PM:name=Squidget)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squidget @ Apr 3 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK causes a runaway effect, turning the game into one-sided walkover due to even the smallest difference in skill level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

yep that's it ...
feels great when your the lawnmower
but the grass rage quits and the server empties.

ogz

Think that happened with RFK back in teh day

unlimited FADE lives. Fades are tough as it is, but back then they would almost always be on full res by the time they died. Infact, back then their res can go beyond 100 .. so you had people sitting on 300 pres :o

Mega Turtling power.

Marines had almost unlimited source of funds when turtling as aliens died to the sentry /grenade spam. Marines rarely lose pres as it is (they can just pick up weapons off the ground).

So it was sort of a 1 stone 2 birds thing when they took it out

Xostean

with onos currently only requiring 1 hive, Pres on kills is the LAST thing we need.

Industry

<!--quoteo(post=1921693:date=Apr 4 2012, 02:29 AM:name=Squidget)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squidget @ Apr 4 2012, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>The game's already steep curve gets even worse, making the game even less noob friendly.</li><li>It encourages outright hostility to new players. With RFK can actually be DISADVANTAGOUS to fill in the bottom of a roster with new players. In the current model, a player can be useless but rarely harmful. They are still a warm body that absorbs some bullets. Not with RFK.</li><li>It completely skews the game away from non-combat classes. Kills, kills, everything's gotta be kills. Screw those Lerks and Gorges, who die rarely but kill rarely. Gotta get Kills. All Fades, all the time. Leads to a more shallow game.</li><li>Skews the game away from team effort and towards superstars.</li></ul>None of this is theory. I saw ALL of this while RFK was in the game, and was elated when it was removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

To add to the runaway problem this system made miraculous comebacks pretty much nonexistent. RFK also takes focus away from map control and the teamwork required to maintain it. The "Screw you comm I'll get my own res" mentality. On top of that I'd really like to stress the part about hostility to new players. I never ever want to see this community ever become anything close to the LoL community. The amount of bile when a newbie dies and feeds the other team gold is insurmountable and is extremely off-putting and is honestly why I quit playing it.