SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1922248:date=Apr 5 2012, 02:51 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 5 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well the alternative to Marines is "research what you need". You don't really need GLs before aliens turtle up or Onos shows up, and you don't really need FTs until Fades appear. You can get them, but they won't be as useful as a Shotgun for most of the things you do. Instead of letting the players choose what strategy to use, Marines get locked into reactionary playstyles based on Kharaa team choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in best case you can make "offensive" tech choices as well instead of only react to your enemy. charlie posted once a longer article about "yomi layers" (i think that's how they are called), which is quite interesting to read (rock, scissor, paper...)
<!--quoteo(post=1922245:date=Apr 5 2012, 11:44 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 5 2012, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the difference is p.res. onos costs 75, where fade costs only 50. why not spend some tres to get an advantage 'right now' until other players got 25 pres more? that's what i mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the aliens have scouted the Marines base and noticed they're teching early to ARCs, or they're getting a little turtly with sentry guns. I'd rather have some Onos around to stomp them than Fades.
Either way I think we can all agree aliens need more VIABLE (this is important to stress) T.res sinks to even out the tech paths between the two factions, i.e unlike with marines there are no choices to be made by the Khamm, and very little things other than extractors to spend T.res on.
Just compare the two at a quick glance <u>Marines</u> Infantry Portal Command Station Obs - Phase tech Phase Gates Armory - Shotguns, mines, welders Advanced Armory - Flamethrowers, GLs ProtoLab - Jetpacks and jetpack upgrades Turret Factory Sentries ARC Factory - MACs and ARc and upgrades for both Arms Lab - 3x upgrades for both offensive and defensive RT
<u>Aliens</u> Hive Whip - Mature whips Max 2 shells or 2 veils (Usually you only get 1 since aliens can only get 1 unlock with 1 hive anyway) Crags or Shade - Mature crags or shade Harvester
It's immediately apparent why aliens have such an easy time replacing early harvester losses, saving for a second hive and generally just staying into the game even when they don't have more than 1 hive. (Since all they need is enough harvesters or enough time to get fade/oni) The marine commander has a lot of choices to make, choices that are all more or less viable early in the game and can be very situational as well. There is no such thing at all for the Khamm. You only need 1 upgrade at the start of the game, you generally don't need whips until they rush Gls, you just need a few shades of crags at best (maturing them is just a luxury thing) and you don't even need a second hive that bad. You ONLY need RTs to win as aliens currently, pretty much. Adding more depth to the alien tech tree would go a very long way in addressing the issue that NS2 is facing today.
Though I do not believe offering 2nd hive lifeform abilities as upgradeable choices at 1 hive is going to do a whole lot. If anything it will just allow aliens to entirely turtle the way marines can, which is more of a buff than anything else. Not to mention that you really don't need xenocide, or leap, or even stomp, etc to win a game. So those aren't 'real' choices either. No one would pick those over more harvesters, and not researching them because you have to spend res on replacing harvesters that are lost will hardly cripple alien play. (Where as marines who have to waste all their T.res on RTs will just get wrecked because they can't keep up in terms of tech)
What we see currently is basically aliens winning on p.res and marines winning on t.res, i.e aliens need just harvesters and marines need both harvesters AND tech (t.res and p.res).
I don't see having to research lifeforms making a big change on current gameplay. You still have 1 hive Onos, and instead of 2-3 people going Onos, now the entire team goes Onos because they have nothing else to spend their res on. Obviously not all commanders will play the same way, but I'll bet the breaking strategy would be "survive for 6 minutes with skulks only, then go 8 Onos".
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1922254:date=Apr 5 2012, 03:05 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 5 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either way I think we can all agree aliens need more VIABLE (this is important to stress) T.res sinks to even out the tech paths between the two factions, i.e unlike with marines there are no choices to be made by the Khamm, and very little things other than extractors to spend T.res on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1922245:date=Apr 5 2012, 07:44 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 5 2012, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the difference is p.res. onos costs 75, where fade costs only 50. why not spend some tres to get an advantage 'right now' until other players got 25 pres more? that's what i mean. if you don't research lerk for example, then you are stuck on skulk/gorge until fades are there. this is a decision that should be made by each individual player. (marine weapons have all similar costs compared with each other, so once you have the adv. armory there is a decision to make what to research first, for aliens this decision is obvios: research what you can effort)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone wants to be able unlock onos super fast into the game. It's more about giving the aliens a tech tree to move through similar to the marines. You can try and "rush" exos as marines, but you'd need to build an armoury, upgrade it to advanced, build pro lab, then research exo, all while not getting any other upgrades or tech. It's very risky.
The same sort of thing could be implemented for the alien side, so that as the game goes on the tech is slowly advancing. The marines have lots of upgrades which simply unlock further tech (arms lab, armoury, adv. armoury, pro lab, obs, robo) these are all things that cost res but for the most part don't give you anything back, they just unlock more upgrades. The aliens don't really have these things to spend tres on.
Well, keeping the lifeforms unlocked from the start can work, but then their upgrades should be a lot more essential in terms of tech progression to the lategame.
<!--quoteo(post=1922286:date=Apr 5 2012, 05:10 PM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Apr 5 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Complaining about losing your second hive is dumb.
Same people, playing Starcraft: Wahh! Terrans destroyed my Ultralisk cavern! Why can't I make Ultralisks? WTF this game is broken! Fix it Blizzard!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because starcraft isn't balanced entirely around whether you have an ultralisk cavern. Especially in SC2 where they're the 2nd or 3rd worst zerg unit depending on who you ask.
In NS2, once the lifeforms are back to where they should be, the second hive will still make or break aliens because of many other design factors.
I hate to repeat myself, but if untied lifeforms isn't working in NS2 yet it's because the supporting mechanics for it haven't been brought along. It's not because untying lifeforms is an explicitly bad idea.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1922286:date=Apr 5 2012, 05:10 PM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Apr 5 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Complaining about losing your second hive is dumb.
Same people, playing Starcraft: Wahh! Terrans destroyed my Ultralisk cavern! Why can't I make Ultralisks? WTF this game is broken! Fix it Blizzard!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sc2 is played usually 1v1 and the units of one team are all controlled by 1 player. that's quite some difference honestly, you can't apply the same rules from sc2 (pure RTS) to ns2 (which has only a few roots in RTS)
Comments
in best case you can make "offensive" tech choices as well instead of only react to your enemy. charlie posted once a longer article about "yomi layers" (i think that's how they are called), which is quite interesting to read (rock, scissor, paper...)
Maybe the aliens have scouted the Marines base and noticed they're teching early to ARCs, or they're getting a little turtly with sentry guns. I'd rather have some Onos around to stomp them than Fades.
Just compare the two at a quick glance
<u>Marines</u>
Infantry Portal
Command Station
Obs - Phase tech
Phase Gates
Armory - Shotguns, mines, welders
Advanced Armory - Flamethrowers, GLs
ProtoLab - Jetpacks and jetpack upgrades
Turret Factory
Sentries
ARC Factory - MACs and ARc and upgrades for both
Arms Lab - 3x upgrades for both offensive and defensive
RT
<u>Aliens</u>
Hive
Whip - Mature whips
Max 2 shells or 2 veils (Usually you only get 1 since aliens can only get 1 unlock with 1 hive anyway)
Crags or Shade - Mature crags or shade
Harvester
It's immediately apparent why aliens have such an easy time replacing early harvester losses, saving for a second hive and generally just staying into the game even when they don't have more than 1 hive. (Since all they need is enough harvesters or enough time to get fade/oni) The marine commander has a lot of choices to make, choices that are all more or less viable early in the game and can be very situational as well. There is no such thing at all for the Khamm. You only need 1 upgrade at the start of the game, you generally don't need whips until they rush Gls, you just need a few shades of crags at best (maturing them is just a luxury thing) and you don't even need a second hive that bad. You ONLY need RTs to win as aliens currently, pretty much. Adding more depth to the alien tech tree would go a very long way in addressing the issue that NS2 is facing today.
Though I do not believe offering 2nd hive lifeform abilities as upgradeable choices at 1 hive is going to do a whole lot. If anything it will just allow aliens to entirely turtle the way marines can, which is more of a buff than anything else. Not to mention that you really don't need xenocide, or leap, or even stomp, etc to win a game. So those aren't 'real' choices either. No one would pick those over more harvesters, and not researching them because you have to spend res on replacing harvesters that are lost will hardly cripple alien play. (Where as marines who have to waste all their T.res on RTs will just get wrecked because they can't keep up in terms of tech)
What we see currently is basically aliens winning on p.res and marines winning on t.res, i.e aliens need just harvesters and marines need both harvesters AND tech (t.res and p.res).
totally agree on this statement.
I don't think anyone wants to be able unlock onos super fast into the game. It's more about giving the aliens a tech tree to move through similar to the marines. You can try and "rush" exos as marines, but you'd need to build an armoury, upgrade it to advanced, build pro lab, then research exo, all while not getting any other upgrades or tech. It's very risky.
The same sort of thing could be implemented for the alien side, so that as the game goes on the tech is slowly advancing. The marines have lots of upgrades which simply unlock further tech (arms lab, armoury, adv. armoury, pro lab, obs, robo) these are all things that cost res but for the most part don't give you anything back, they just unlock more upgrades. The aliens don't really have these things to spend tres on.
Same people, playing Starcraft:
Wahh! Terrans destroyed my Ultralisk cavern! Why can't I make Ultralisks? WTF this game is broken! Fix it Blizzard!
Same people, playing Starcraft:
Wahh! Terrans destroyed my Ultralisk cavern! Why can't I make Ultralisks? WTF this game is broken! Fix it Blizzard!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because starcraft isn't balanced entirely around whether you have an ultralisk cavern. Especially in SC2 where they're the 2nd or 3rd worst zerg unit depending on who you ask.
In NS2, once the lifeforms are back to where they should be, the second hive will still make or break aliens because of many other design factors.
I hate to repeat myself, but if untied lifeforms isn't working in NS2 yet it's because the supporting mechanics for it haven't been brought along. It's not because untying lifeforms is an explicitly bad idea.
Same people, playing Starcraft:
Wahh! Terrans destroyed my Ultralisk cavern! Why can't I make Ultralisks? WTF this game is broken! Fix it Blizzard!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sc2 is played usually 1v1 and the units of one team are all controlled by 1 player. that's quite some difference honestly, you can't apply the same rules from sc2 (pure RTS) to ns2 (which has only a few roots in RTS)
1 TP:
aliens: skulk(bite/parasite) gorge(healspray/build) lerk(shoot spikes) fade(swipe/shadowstep) onos(gore[without stun])
marines: obs, normal armory, turret factory, armslab
2 TP:
aliens: skulk(+leap) gorge(+spit) lerk(+spores) fade(+blink) onos(+stomp*)
marines: advanced armory, phasegate
3 TP:
aliens: skulk(+armor) gorge(+armor) lerk(+bilebomb) fade(+energyregeneration) onos(+smash*)
marines: prototypelab
*im not sure which onosability is the longrange aoe 2s stun, but that one should be hive3.