NS2 and its focus on negative abilities
Tweadle
Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">physical and sensual impairment</div>Feeling restricted and/or powerless in games is something that should only be had in moderation. I think NS2 has gone overboard in this respect and should seek to tone down various abilities / status-effects and make them more positive. I've compared NS1 to NS2 just to show how big the change in emphasis is and to highlight how many more abilities and effects there are that revolve around suffocating the enemy rather than promoting the self. I've starred (*'d) everything that I view as negative (to yourself or others) just from the alien perspective to begin with. While people may disagree with particulars, the overarching picture is obvious.
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<b>Compare NS1:</b>
NS1 Skulk: Bite - Parasite - Leap - Xenocide
NS1 Gorge: Spit - Heal Spray - Bilebomb - Web*
NS1 Lerk: Bite - Spore - Umbra - Primal Scream
NS1 Fade: Swipe - Blink - Metabolise - Acid Rocket
NS1 Onos: Gore - Devour* - Stomp* - Charge
NS1 DC: Regeneration - Carapace - Redemption
NS1 SC: Cloak* - Focus - Scent of Fear // passively cloaks*
NS1 MC: Silence* - Celerity - Adrenaline
NS1 OC: expensive and not perfectly accurate
<b>With NS2:</b>
NS2 Skulk: Bite - Parasite - Leap - Xenocide
NS2 Gorge: Spit* - Heal Spray // Hydra - Clogs*
NS2 Lerk: Spikes - Spore* - Bilebomb
NS2 Fade: Swipe - Blink* - Stab // Shadowstep*
NS2 Onos: Gore* - Stomp* - Smash // Charge*
NS2 Crag: Heal - Umbra* - Babblers
--NS2 Shell: Carapace - Regeneration
NS2 Shade: Disorient* - Cloak* - Phantasm*
--NS2 Veil: Camouflage* - Silence*
NS2 Shift: Recall - Energize - Echo
--NS2 Spur: Celerity - Hypermutation
Infestation* - AlienVision*
[edit]Â
<b>add: marine and alien low-health sound/vision obscuration, riflebutt stun, flashlights, darkness, rupture, nano-shield screen pulse, flamethrower</b>
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The first thing I noticed when writing it all down is that NS1 player-abilities has no early-mid game negativity whatsoever. They exist mainly in the infrequent onos and in the gorge's 3rd hive ability (a game-ender, really). The SC has the infamous cloak and it should be noted that, in some communities, it was almost considered bad etiquette to drop it first. I was tempted to include focus as a negative ability because it made some marines feel powerless (especially with passive cloak) but resisted. MCs have silence which is fairly, but not completely, negative. All-in-all, NS1 was not that bad. It gets <b>6* STARS</b>, 3 of which only occur in the late-game and 2 of which were duplicates (cloak vs passive cloak).
NS2, on the other hand, has a plethora of negative abilities. Spit and its slow-on-hit is out very early and the proposed goo-wall (sounds gooey...) will be the same. The lerk's opaque spores are also seen early which, coupled with crag's umbra cloud, can make things annoyingly hard to see. The fade's blink and shadowstep are more examples of relatively early visual negation - it's deliberately designed to make it hard for marines to see fades. The onos's FIRST ability stuns and disorients and stomp is an AREA-EFFECT disabler. Both of these are annoying, firstly, but also coupled with damage. While the NS1 onos contained two negative abilities as well, one of them was a once-only type (admittedly frustrating, though) and the other dealt no damage, nor did it play havoc with the opponent's screens. The onos in NS1 was also much less frequently used and occured later in the game but I figure this a problem UWE will be addressing soon. Lastly, charge in NS2 just serves to make the onos feel slow to begin with. Sure, it feels great once you get going but the start-up is annoying and after any action that requires me to stop, I feel very slow.
Just have a look at the Shade/Veil combo and marvel at its negativity for a moment... Alone, it rivals the entirety of NS1's collection of physical/sensual impairment. I didn't think they could do much more to make SCs worse. However, they've managed to design a chamber that cloaks, turns your sound to ######e and will potentially allow fake aliens to be running around. It's quite incredible really and the fact that it permits both camouflage AND silence makes it an obvious candidate for "the most annoying thing in NS" award.
Infestation is also needlessly negative. Why does it have to affect movement speed? With the way it's spammed currently, it's just a constant source of minor aggravation which has very little to say in terms of game balance. If UWE is so set on making infestation ominous, then they can achieve that through buffing aliens rather than debuffing marines. In fact, it would probably be a good thing that the only lifeforms that would really benefit are the skulk/gorge/onos. AlienVision is a minor annoyance in that my supposedly advantageous sense-improvement makes it easier to see marines but MUCH harder to see anything else. From an aesthetic perspective alone, it's debilitating and pointlessly so.
NS2 gets a whopping <b>16* STARS</b> and it's not even feature-complete.
I've focused on aliens because that's where I see most of the problem but I could point to super-turrets, the powergrid system and flamethrowers as example of physical and sensual limitations. They're less extreme but I also feel like they don't <i>need</i> to be as limiting as they are.
---
<b>Compare NS1:</b>
NS1 Skulk: Bite - Parasite - Leap - Xenocide
NS1 Gorge: Spit - Heal Spray - Bilebomb - Web*
NS1 Lerk: Bite - Spore - Umbra - Primal Scream
NS1 Fade: Swipe - Blink - Metabolise - Acid Rocket
NS1 Onos: Gore - Devour* - Stomp* - Charge
NS1 DC: Regeneration - Carapace - Redemption
NS1 SC: Cloak* - Focus - Scent of Fear // passively cloaks*
NS1 MC: Silence* - Celerity - Adrenaline
NS1 OC: expensive and not perfectly accurate
<b>With NS2:</b>
NS2 Skulk: Bite - Parasite - Leap - Xenocide
NS2 Gorge: Spit* - Heal Spray // Hydra - Clogs*
NS2 Lerk: Spikes - Spore* - Bilebomb
NS2 Fade: Swipe - Blink* - Stab // Shadowstep*
NS2 Onos: Gore* - Stomp* - Smash // Charge*
NS2 Crag: Heal - Umbra* - Babblers
--NS2 Shell: Carapace - Regeneration
NS2 Shade: Disorient* - Cloak* - Phantasm*
--NS2 Veil: Camouflage* - Silence*
NS2 Shift: Recall - Energize - Echo
--NS2 Spur: Celerity - Hypermutation
Infestation* - AlienVision*
[edit]Â
<b>add: marine and alien low-health sound/vision obscuration, riflebutt stun, flashlights, darkness, rupture, nano-shield screen pulse, flamethrower</b>
---
The first thing I noticed when writing it all down is that NS1 player-abilities has no early-mid game negativity whatsoever. They exist mainly in the infrequent onos and in the gorge's 3rd hive ability (a game-ender, really). The SC has the infamous cloak and it should be noted that, in some communities, it was almost considered bad etiquette to drop it first. I was tempted to include focus as a negative ability because it made some marines feel powerless (especially with passive cloak) but resisted. MCs have silence which is fairly, but not completely, negative. All-in-all, NS1 was not that bad. It gets <b>6* STARS</b>, 3 of which only occur in the late-game and 2 of which were duplicates (cloak vs passive cloak).
NS2, on the other hand, has a plethora of negative abilities. Spit and its slow-on-hit is out very early and the proposed goo-wall (sounds gooey...) will be the same. The lerk's opaque spores are also seen early which, coupled with crag's umbra cloud, can make things annoyingly hard to see. The fade's blink and shadowstep are more examples of relatively early visual negation - it's deliberately designed to make it hard for marines to see fades. The onos's FIRST ability stuns and disorients and stomp is an AREA-EFFECT disabler. Both of these are annoying, firstly, but also coupled with damage. While the NS1 onos contained two negative abilities as well, one of them was a once-only type (admittedly frustrating, though) and the other dealt no damage, nor did it play havoc with the opponent's screens. The onos in NS1 was also much less frequently used and occured later in the game but I figure this a problem UWE will be addressing soon. Lastly, charge in NS2 just serves to make the onos feel slow to begin with. Sure, it feels great once you get going but the start-up is annoying and after any action that requires me to stop, I feel very slow.
Just have a look at the Shade/Veil combo and marvel at its negativity for a moment... Alone, it rivals the entirety of NS1's collection of physical/sensual impairment. I didn't think they could do much more to make SCs worse. However, they've managed to design a chamber that cloaks, turns your sound to ######e and will potentially allow fake aliens to be running around. It's quite incredible really and the fact that it permits both camouflage AND silence makes it an obvious candidate for "the most annoying thing in NS" award.
Infestation is also needlessly negative. Why does it have to affect movement speed? With the way it's spammed currently, it's just a constant source of minor aggravation which has very little to say in terms of game balance. If UWE is so set on making infestation ominous, then they can achieve that through buffing aliens rather than debuffing marines. In fact, it would probably be a good thing that the only lifeforms that would really benefit are the skulk/gorge/onos. AlienVision is a minor annoyance in that my supposedly advantageous sense-improvement makes it easier to see marines but MUCH harder to see anything else. From an aesthetic perspective alone, it's debilitating and pointlessly so.
NS2 gets a whopping <b>16* STARS</b> and it's not even feature-complete.
I've focused on aliens because that's where I see most of the problem but I could point to super-turrets, the powergrid system and flamethrowers as example of physical and sensual limitations. They're less extreme but I also feel like they don't <i>need</i> to be as limiting as they are.
Comments
You forgot drifter flare. You could also add the self-limitations on marine side. Low health sound/visual and flashlights.
i don't think this is necessarily bad in general though as long as each gimp has a corresponding buff or counter.
I do not enjoy playing marines because after the early game (skulks are fun to battle) almost everything aliens have is frustrating (good lerks) or feels cheap (fades warping around, onos knocking you down).
I think that umbra, silence and onos stomp are fine. Cloak and maybe even the slow effect of spit are bearable.
But lerk spores and onos' gore stun make me really frustrated. What's the point of playing a game if you can't see nor move or shoot. Also i'm not waiting for the implementation of goo wall and phantasm at all. I'm afraid that they well cause just more frustrating moments.
jbaker8935 raises a good point about counters. Umbra is cool because it can be countered with gls and ARCs. Silence and cloak can be countered by scans and observatories. But how do you counter the onos gore? Your only hope is move into a place where the onos doesn't reach with the 10 meter attack range. Lerk spore is pretty impossible to counter too especially if skulks are followed immediately after the lerk gas has been laid down.
Also infestation slowing and detecting marines is ridiculous and just kills all the guerrilla strategies marines could try in the end game. I would be fine if these infestation abilities were upgrades instead of innate features.
Please let us have a game where the players can atleast see, move and shoot!
It's a game where you have classes that can fly, teleport, and walk on walls, and one side has magic see-everything-ever vision and both sides have built in wallhacks and people are complaining about 'it's too restrictive, I can't see or move properly'.
What exactly do you want the game to be like?
I agree that detection/slowdown/any other future effects for cyst infestation should come down to upgrades, perhaps tied to individual cysts.
Also the low hp sound and visual effects as a marine are frustrating. As if having 10 health does not put you disadvantaged enough.
It's also super annoying as a commander if you decide to get out off cc to kill a lonely skulk and it manages to bite you two times. Then you login back to the CC only to notice that you can't hear properly and the whole comm UI is blurred and wavy. Then you logout, go to the armory and log back in and found out half of your team is wondering in a place where they should not be and the other half lies dead because you couldn't give medpack or ammo while trying to recover your senses.
There isn't one ability in the game that unfairly restricts you.
Gorges are fat and slow, spit slowing you down does not make it remotely threatening.
Spores are designed to mess up marine coordination, your solution is to not run around like an idiot, step out of the spores, and keep shooting, or retreat to a better position, or kill the lerk.
About the only thing that could remotely be considered unfair is the onos, and it wouldn't be any less lethal if it didn't have the ability to stun you. It's a giant space gorilla with a horn, it will beat you silly if you get in the way of it. The solution is to not get in the way of it.
this, combined with bogged movement system(s) is my current biggest beef with ns2
There isn't one ability in the game that unfairly restricts you.
Gorges are fat and slow, spit slowing you down does not make it remotely threatening.
Spores are designed to mess up marine coordination, your solution is to not run around like an idiot, step out of the spores, and keep shooting, or retreat to a better position, or kill the lerk.
About the only thing that could remotely be considered unfair is the onos, and it wouldn't be any less lethal if it didn't have the ability to stun you. It's a giant space gorilla with a horn, it will beat you silly if you get in the way of it. The solution is to not get in the way of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if the gorge is by its self, even then while not threatening it certainly adds unnecessary tedium and initial confusion.
How about when the gorge isn't by its self? Say it gets a slow down from the other end of a hallway with a skulk in chase?
It's difficult to be better at the game when your ability to move is being restricted like that. You can't increase the distance between yourself and the skulk as easily or attempt to duke it. Seems pretty restrictive to me.
As for the onos, how can you get away from something that has the ability to see any group of marines on the map due to cyst magic, and then stun lock an entire marine team around a corner? Even jetpackers aren't safe.
You say their isn't one ability that unfairly limits the marines, but don't come up with a single relevant counter argument.
Honestly, I think you need to get better at the game to better understand what an unfair restriction is.
If the goal of slow on spit is to kill the marine the positive solution is to increase spit dps.
If the goal of slow on spit is to irritate the marines then it's perfect.
There are no unfair restrictions and most of them - if not all - can be countered. That's what makes the game interesting. None of them are really limiting to anyone who played shooters before.
The only annoying thing i can think of is the blinding, slowing and hurting-afterwards flamer, which has its fair role in the big picture.
Cyst is fine once it's not spammable. Till then it's debuff is a little messed up since you can cross vast distances quickly with them.
Lerk spores are a little too opaque, I'll agree with that. I second the thought that there should be a limited visual range of 5 meters or so.
Onos is the only one I really have any problem with. I feel bad when I gore marines. Any time I knock them around really....it's not fun when it's happening to me. I don't feel bad for jamming their weapons, even though it feels like a bug when it happens. Really needs a sound effect.
How about when the gorge isn't by its self? Say it gets a slow down from the other end of a hallway with a skulk in chase?
It's difficult to be better at the game when your ability to move is being restricted like that. You can't increase the distance between yourself and the skulk as easily or attempt to duke it. Seems pretty restrictive to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then avoid being spit, it's a projectile which you can see coming.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111018" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111018</a>
Look at how many people disagreed with me then compared to this thread now. I must be Nostradamus.
I think you missed the power grid existing for sensory and game speed impairment too.
i see no link between the negatives, the abilitys and the stars.
maybe its because english isnt my native language, but i cant realy figure out what he wants to say.
i guess hes unhappy with something, but i dont get his point. most of the things in ns1 are in ns2, some are different and some arent implemented yet.
ok i read his post 3more times, but all i get is that he doesnt want to be hindered in running around and killing stuff. i am sorry tweadle, but it seems like i realy cant understand what u want to say....
our thoughtpatterns are to different it seems, because u pointed out nearly every alien ability i like playing against > blinking fades, spore laying lurks, cloaked skulks and so on.... and it gives me this incredible lovely creepy felling when i move on infestation and iam slowed and know every alien knows where i am.
granted the stun on gore should be a second hive ability, but hey its a beta.
He was saying there are too many abilities which inhibit opponents: removing speed, or vision, or the ability to act. Typically, games try to keep abilities like that to a minimum because they *aren't fun*.
Alien vision should probably get a trade off as well, there's very little reason not to use it all the time currently. (And marine flashlight is utterly rubbish by comparison)
mines. macs. pg. beacon. turret. extra marine.
All of these are options besides getting out of the comm chair - <b>which is a risky venture.</b>
personally, i feel as though getting out of the cc should have larger ramifications, or maybe people should just bait the comm more. idk.
As for OP, i can agree about stun from gore and the frequency / cooldown of knockdown from stomp. Having player input be disabled is frustrating - especially when its movement!
So why not just have the gun jam and you have to reload? stomp already jams turrets? and you can visually impair a marine when he gets gored for a second to accomplish the same thing but with less frustration.
i do not agree with spores though - the lerk already has it's tradeoffs for this support buff, and if FT can counter it, then that is all thats needed.
i do not agree with gorge spit - its not even that offensive of a weapon, you can still see through it, and its merely to give that gorge an extra second to<b> run away,</b> not to mention the projectile is dodgeable from any distance beyond a few meters. Spit is almost useless as yuuki stated, in that its better to spend your time bellysliding away than spitting. i see goo wall replacing spitting very soon.
as for cloak and cysts.. all this is changing constantly. think about the new material system for instance. give it time.
Seriously -- the gorge? Gorge in ns1 had so many more options and was FUN to play. If you were bad at shooting or attacking, gorge was PERFECT.