<!--quoteo(post=1923964:date=Apr 10 2012, 06:12 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Apr 10 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1923964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the key issue here is what I'll call 'remote scouting.' The infestation gives hivesight of marine players positions. The 'spotting' of aliens on the ceiling or behind a marine really kills ambush tactics and sneakiness.
My proposal: Have cysts alert when a marines is within it's infestation, but not give the exact location. This way it would still serve as a warning system without giving specific info like the size and position of the incoming force. This allows infesting of key areas to still be useful. For PowerNodes, have a similar alert. When an alien is present, have that powernode light up its sector of the map. This would allow marines to monitor where forces are incoming without having the minimap ESP. This would divide scouting into 2 distinct forms. Sector/cyst scouting that is like a alert about enemies in a general area vs individual scouting such as parasiting or spotting. This brings back the value of having a player on the front lines relaying info about the size and make-up of an enemy squad. This is where much of the cat-and-mouse style probing and harassing of opposing forces came from in NS1. "There's 3 HAs at this location!" "4 skulks just took me down outside of our base!" It would also make feints and the like much more possible. Do you split your forces equally to check on the 2 sectors on different ends of the map that are being invaded? What if there is only one enemy player at location 1, but 7 enemies at location 2? A lone skulk or marines might rally the opposing team to their location while a ninja squad prepares an assault elsewhere.
To really branch out the tech-tree for both sides, make these abilities part of the Shade/Obs tech path. The highest tier of these tech paths would be the current infestation wallhack and motion-tracking. This would allow for some interesting tactical dynamics of intel vs force. Should we get carapace vs cyst-sense. Shotguns vs grid-sensing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like the reasoning behind this too. I'd like to see the shade play more of a role in information gathering than it does now. Having limited, and potentially upgradeable, infestation-sight linked with the shade would be interesting and is a good alternative to cloak or disorient which are pretty annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1924293:date=Apr 11 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 11 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the reasoning behind this too. I'd like to see the shade play more of a role in information gathering than it does now. Having limited, and potentially upgradeable, infestation-sight linked with the shade would be interesting and is a good alternative to cloak or disorient which are pretty annoying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh this gives me an idea:
A "Scan" ability that works differently than Observatory, in that this ability relies on Cysts. Imagine sending a pulse through the system which reveals any enemies on infestation maintained by Cysts, which is exactly like the infestation Hive Sight we have now, only that it is progressive (emits from Shade to where you click, travels along the Cyst chain)
I though the same. A wave propagating through the infestation, it should emit a sound (some kind of creepy scream maybe) so that marines can hear it and try to get off the infestation before the wave hit them. It could be very funny to see marines sprint is all direction, jump onto boxes to avoid to be detected.
I don't think player built lights are a good idea for marines. All that will happen is those lerks that fly around the map harassing you will destroy them from afar every chance they get, which means you have to keep re-placing them over and over just to be able to *see*. Bad idea in my humble opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1924298:date=Apr 11 2012, 02:54 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Apr 11 2012, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A "Scan" ability that works differently than Observatory, in that this ability relies on Cysts. Imagine sending a pulse through the system which reveals any enemies on infestation maintained by Cysts, which is exactly like the infestation Hive Sight we have now, only that it is progressive (emits from Shade to where you click, travels along the Cyst chain)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a really cool idea, an alien "scan" ability that pulses all the cysts and checks for marines... very cool. Even better if it goes out from the hive and hits each cyst 1-by-1 on the chain rather than all at once. I can see this being implemented in place of always-on cyst hive-sight. Hope the devs see this idea!
That logic applies to powerpacks too which are much more important than light packs. How would reducing the burden on a structure suddenly make it more susceptible to anything? It's the opposite.
<!--quoteo(post=1924314:date=Apr 11 2012, 03:32 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 11 2012, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That logic applies to powerpacks too which are much more important than light packs. How would reducing the burden on a structure suddenly make it more susceptible to anything? It's the opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you replying to me? I don't know what you're talking about with powerpacks and light packs
It was just a comparison. Basically, light-packs don't need to suffer from what you're worrying about any more than any other structure that isn't balanced properly. I envisage light-packs being relatively cheap and surplus to basic requirements. They would be helpful but not strictly necessary. A lerk *could* take one down fairly quickly but it would only be a wise decision if it was totally unguarded. Anyway, my point is that the problem you highlight is not some insurmountable task.
<!--quoteo(post=1923964:date=Apr 10 2012, 04:12 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Apr 10 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1923964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the key issue here is what I'll call 'remote scouting.' The infestation gives hivesight of marine players positions. The 'spotting' of aliens on the ceiling or behind a marine really kills ambush tactics and sneakiness.
My proposal: Have cysts alert when a marines is within it's infestation, but not give the exact location. This way it would still serve as a warning system without giving specific info like the size and position of the incoming force. This allows infesting of key areas to still be useful. For PowerNodes, have a similar alert. When an alien is present, have that powernode light up its sector of the map. This would allow marines to monitor where forces are incoming without having the minimap ESP. This would divide scouting into 2 distinct forms. Sector/cyst scouting that is like a alert about enemies in a general area vs individual scouting such as parasiting or spotting. This brings back the value of having a player on the front lines relaying info about the size and make-up of an enemy squad. This is where much of the cat-and-mouse style probing and harassing of opposing forces came from in NS1. "There's 3 HAs at this location!" "4 skulks just took me down outside of our base!" It would also make feints and the like much more possible. Do you split your forces equally to check on the 2 sectors on different ends of the map that are being invaded? What if there is only one enemy player at location 1, but 7 enemies at location 2? A lone skulk or marines might rally the opposing team to their location while a ninja squad prepares an assault elsewhere.
To really branch out the tech-tree for both sides, make these abilities part of the Shade/Obs tech path. The highest tier of these tech paths would be the current infestation wallhack and motion-tracking. This would allow for some interesting tactical dynamics of intel vs force. Should we get carapace vs cyst-sense. Shotguns vs grid-sensing.
Just some ideas....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really think the infestation/power-grid are extremely important to the success of NS2 gameplay. They are the fabric that connects the over-arching RTS aspects to the FPS gameplay in a visible and intuitive way. The res nodes are similarly important, but we all know they work fine from NS1. Adding more depth and variation to the DI/power-grid really expands the possible strategy and tactics available within the game for both FPS players and comms/khaams.
The trick is to not over-complicate these systems so they suddenly become confusing and ambiguous.
It seems to me that a big part of the problem with infestation is that it is spread too fast and at too little investment. What if buildings did not require inf to build? It would allow for the inf to advance slowly and gradually not becoming an actual offensive threat to marines until late game where it will have consumed large parts of the map unless they took the time to burn it away with flamers. Early on however it will retain its defensive capabilities and contribute to making alien territory distinct from the rest of the map.
I do agree though that power nodes seem rather superfluous and tacked on at the moment, they need to be given a much more distinct role with more game play consequences.
<!--quoteo(post=1924081:date=Apr 11 2012, 05:35 AM:name=Pampelmuse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pampelmuse @ Apr 11 2012, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Give mature shades the ability to put out his tendrils and "scan-sweep" the connected creep for 40 energy and reveal marines on it for 10 seconds<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im sorry but i can only quote myself. to solve alien superior scouting through cysts, just make it trigger-able. in addition, it gives the bored alien comm something to toy around with, as he is not nearly as occupied as the marine comm is.
They've already said they'd slow down infestation, among other things to hit alien expansion speed. That's going to be a big step, though would definitely love to see them also address hive sight. It's very powerful and COULD be a T.res cyst upgrade for the khamm, would actually be something worth investing in (unlike mature crags/shades/whips are just a luxury t.res sink atm, and aliens have very little other tech)
Comments
My proposal: Have cysts alert when a marines is within it's infestation, but not give the exact location. This way it would still serve as a warning system without giving specific info like the size and position of the incoming force. This allows infesting of key areas to still be useful. For PowerNodes, have a similar alert. When an alien is present, have that powernode light up its sector of the map. This would allow marines to monitor where forces are incoming without having the minimap ESP. This would divide scouting into 2 distinct forms. Sector/cyst scouting that is like a alert about enemies in a general area vs individual scouting such as parasiting or spotting. This brings back the value of having a player on the front lines relaying info about the size and make-up of an enemy squad. This is where much of the cat-and-mouse style probing and harassing of opposing forces came from in NS1. "There's 3 HAs at this location!" "4 skulks just took me down outside of our base!" It would also make feints and the like much more possible. Do you split your forces equally to check on the 2 sectors on different ends of the map that are being invaded? What if there is only one enemy player at location 1, but 7 enemies at location 2? A lone skulk or marines might rally the opposing team to their location while a ninja squad prepares an assault elsewhere.
To really branch out the tech-tree for both sides, make these abilities part of the Shade/Obs tech path. The highest tier of these tech paths would be the current infestation wallhack and motion-tracking. This would allow for some interesting tactical dynamics of intel vs force. Should we get carapace vs cyst-sense. Shotguns vs grid-sensing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the reasoning behind this too. I'd like to see the shade play more of a role in information gathering than it does now. Having limited, and potentially upgradeable, infestation-sight linked with the shade would be interesting and is a good alternative to cloak or disorient which are pretty annoying.
Oh this gives me an idea:
A "Scan" ability that works differently than Observatory, in that this ability relies on Cysts. Imagine sending a pulse through the system which reveals any enemies on infestation maintained by Cysts, which is exactly like the infestation Hive Sight we have now, only that it is progressive (emits from Shade to where you click, travels along the Cyst chain)
<!--quoteo(post=1924298:date=Apr 11 2012, 02:54 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Apr 11 2012, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A "Scan" ability that works differently than Observatory, in that this ability relies on Cysts. Imagine sending a pulse through the system which reveals any enemies on infestation maintained by Cysts, which is exactly like the infestation Hive Sight we have now, only that it is progressive (emits from Shade to where you click, travels along the Cyst chain)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a really cool idea, an alien "scan" ability that pulses all the cysts and checks for marines... very cool. Even better if it goes out from the hive and hits each cyst 1-by-1 on the chain rather than all at once. I can see this being implemented in place of always-on cyst hive-sight. Hope the devs see this idea!
are you replying to me? I don't know what you're talking about with powerpacks and light packs
My proposal: Have cysts alert when a marines is within it's infestation, but not give the exact location. This way it would still serve as a warning system without giving specific info like the size and position of the incoming force. This allows infesting of key areas to still be useful. For PowerNodes, have a similar alert. When an alien is present, have that powernode light up its sector of the map. This would allow marines to monitor where forces are incoming without having the minimap ESP. This would divide scouting into 2 distinct forms. Sector/cyst scouting that is like a alert about enemies in a general area vs individual scouting such as parasiting or spotting. This brings back the value of having a player on the front lines relaying info about the size and make-up of an enemy squad. This is where much of the cat-and-mouse style probing and harassing of opposing forces came from in NS1. "There's 3 HAs at this location!" "4 skulks just took me down outside of our base!" It would also make feints and the like much more possible. Do you split your forces equally to check on the 2 sectors on different ends of the map that are being invaded? What if there is only one enemy player at location 1, but 7 enemies at location 2? A lone skulk or marines might rally the opposing team to their location while a ninja squad prepares an assault elsewhere.
To really branch out the tech-tree for both sides, make these abilities part of the Shade/Obs tech path. The highest tier of these tech paths would be the current infestation wallhack and motion-tracking. This would allow for some interesting tactical dynamics of intel vs force. Should we get carapace vs cyst-sense. Shotguns vs grid-sensing.
Just some ideas....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Great ideas!
I really think the infestation/power-grid are extremely important to the success of NS2 gameplay. They are the fabric that connects the over-arching RTS aspects to the FPS gameplay in a visible and intuitive way. The res nodes are similarly important, but we all know they work fine from NS1. Adding more depth and variation to the DI/power-grid really expands the possible strategy and tactics available within the game for both FPS players and comms/khaams.
The trick is to not over-complicate these systems so they suddenly become confusing and ambiguous.
I do agree though that power nodes seem rather superfluous and tacked on at the moment, they need to be given a much more distinct role with more game play consequences.
EDIT: It also occurs to me that a big part of why infestation is so good is because it takes so damn long to disappear after you kill the cyst. So even if an attacking marine/arc column kills all the cysts they will still be seen by the aliens and the latter will have total knowledge of their numbers. Perhaps let the flamer kill infestation (make it vanish immediately) while leaving the cysts as is. This will allow marines to keep their numbers hidden from the aliens if they have the tech.
TLDR: Infestation dies slowly if cyst is killed but very quickly if flambéed by a flamer.
im sorry but i can only quote myself. to solve alien superior scouting through cysts, just make it trigger-able.
in addition, it gives the bored alien comm something to toy around with, as he is not nearly as occupied as the marine comm is.