ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
see, there in lies what I was trying to say I DONT KNOW IF THIS IS A BUG OR NOT
I was simply showing how armour is said to work
and if you read fams post, I think he ment that you don't get more armour you get better armour (not better HP)
again, I am simply showing how it says the game works
if it is the case that you are receving the DMG reduction even if the armour is not there to absorbe it, then it is a bug so far as I can see
PLEASE COULD A DEV HELP ME I AM GOING INSANE (most of what ppl are arguing over is wording, ppl keep trying to say that I am saying the bug dosn't exist, I am not)
<!--QuoteBegin--GravitonSurge+Nov 17 2002, 12:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GravitonSurge @ Nov 17 2002, 12:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Techno-Kid+Nov 17 2002, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Techno-Kid @ Nov 17 2002, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why is it stupid? i don't understand. an armor upgrade making the armor better is stupid? it's not even like the marines don't have the same thing in a different format. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fam said that the aliens LIFE also reduces damage.. NOT just the armor. And no, the marines do not have this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you even played this game? <b> YES, THE MARINES DO HAVE THIS, IN TWO DIFFERENT FORMATS</b>
<b>1.</b> The armor upgrades from the arms lab does the same thing that carapace does. (maybe not the exact numbers but it is the same function)
<b>2.</b> Heavy armor gives an INSANE amount of absorb, more than ANY OTHER THING IN THE GAME.
Here's an idea...how about no one else makes a statement on why they think x amount of bullets creates y amount of damage on a 30% carapace squared...Just let the devs clear it up. Please? Thank you.
Just having 0 armor and being shot is just a very quick way to realize the bug. With armor, the aliens still have very significant damage negation that isn't supposed to happen. The alien carapace is supposed to work like marine armor, but it doesn't. The distributions in the manual are just that, distributions. The way it is supposed to work is that the full damage is taken, a percent damage goes to health, and the rest is halved and sent to armor. Marines work this way. However, aliens don't take this full damage. They negate some damage and then distribute the damage between the health and the rest halved to armor.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nimbus+Nov 17 2002, 01:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nimbus @ Nov 17 2002, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--GravitonSurge+Nov 17 2002, 12:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GravitonSurge @ Nov 17 2002, 12:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Techno-Kid+Nov 17 2002, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Techno-Kid @ Nov 17 2002, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why is it stupid? i don't understand. an armor upgrade making the armor better is stupid? it's not even like the marines don't have the same thing in a different format. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fam said that the aliens LIFE also reduces damage.. NOT just the armor. And no, the marines do not have this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you even played this game? <b> YES, THE MARINES DO HAVE THIS, IN TWO DIFFERENT FORMATS</b>
<b>1.</b> The armor upgrades from the arms lab does the same thing that carapace does. (maybe not the exact numbers but it is the same function)
<b>2.</b> Heavy armor gives an INSANE amount of absorb, more than ANY OTHER THING IN THE GAME.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not what I mean, **obscenity**! How about you read what he said?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just having 0 armor and being shot is just a very quick way to realize the bug. With armor, the aliens still have very significant damage negation that isn't supposed to happen. The alien carapace is supposed to work like marine armor, but it doesn't. The distributions in the manual are just that, distributions. The way it is supposed to work is that the full damage is taken, a percent damage goes to health, and the rest is halved and sent to armor. Marines work this way. However, aliens don't take this full damage. They negate some damage and then distribute the damage between the health and the rest halved to armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine's <b>HEALTH, <u>NOT</u> ARMOR, <i>HEALTH</i></b> doesn't get damage absorb.. if it does then I'm on crack because I always see the dame damage being done from bite.
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not! their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not! their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really because once you take the armor away.. it's gone..
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not! their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really because once you take the armor away.. it's gone..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> see thats exactly the point im trying to make....the aliens' armor is really just the toughening (i know thats prolly spelled wrong) of their skin. so really, their entire body is their armor. the armor counter on ur HUD could be thought of to represent just the outermost, toughest layer, but everything underneath is still armored as well, just not as much.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->see thats exactly the point im trying to make....the aliens' armor is really just the toughening (i know thats prolly spelled wrong) of their skin. so really, their entire body is their armor. the armor counter on ur HUD could be thought of to represent just the outermost, toughest layer, but everything underneath is still armored as well, just not as much. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Acutal that makes no @#$@$ sense at all but lemme go with it for a second
Ok your saying that not only is the hard outer skin armor but theres a second Magic Armor Skin right underneath that never takes affect till the first one is shot off and magicly hops out of the wall of bullets that make it through the First layer?
Ok ok, we are already kicking over half a dozen Biology laws with the whole Concept of Skulk->Onos what the hell lets shoot a few more down <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Im pretty sure this doesn't applie on Onos or Fade, I always upgrade carapace because of enhanced damage absorbtion and armor size and when they get 0 armor, they die very quickly. Just like marines which have 0% of their HA do.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Do note that once an aliens armor is gone, it starts to take more damage than before. With no upgrade, a skulk takes 16 pts of damage from a pistol shot. With no armor left, it takes 18 damage.
And does it matter, really? If it is a bug, then it is a bug the game has been balanced with. "Fixing" the bug would mean adjusting the formula and then upping all the armor and/or health values to get the same survivability as today anyhow.
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not! their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hmm, if i heard correctly when u have no upgrade to carapace u still take full damage with the 50 armor as skul. when u start out.
and a dev hasn't read this yet......... Someone plz clear this up!! read!
<!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Nov 17 2002, 11:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Nov 17 2002, 11:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do note that once an aliens armor is gone, it starts to take more damage than before. With no upgrade, a skulk takes 16 pts of damage from a pistol shot. With no armor left, it takes 18 damage.
And does it matter, really? If it is a bug, then it is a bug the game has been balanced with. "Fixing" the bug would mean adjusting the formula and then upping all the armor and/or health values to get the same survivability as today anyhow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> See? Now this guy knows what he's talking about.
Like Fam said- an aliens body also negates part of the damage. Think of it as a natural toughness- even without armor the skin needs to be penetrated. Aliens have tough skin, what can I say? Marines are soft and yummy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Think of it as a natural toughness- even without armor the skin needs to be penetrated. Aliens have tough skin, what can I say? Marines are soft and yummy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why go to all that trouble to make the marine guns do a certain, specific amount of damage when they're never going to do that damage to an alien anyway? If an lmg bullet is SUPPOSED to do 7 damage when they have no armor, as you say, then why is it listed as doing 10 damage? If you tell me it's only valid against structures, I'd wonder why structures don't have the same unmentioned, undocumented toughness the aliens themselves have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fam said that the aliens LIFE also reduces damage.. NOT just the armor. And no, the marines do not have this..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i was asking why it was stupid for the alien armor upgrades to upgrade damage resistance. you misread what i said, graviton.
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperMunchkin+Nov 17 2002, 07:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperMunchkin @ Nov 17 2002, 07:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wish I could smack you until you died <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->even if this feature was removed aliens would require more armor or else the game would be off balance again <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think the question at hand is, is this a feature? since it's completely undocumented in the manual and the idea of damage negation without armor to explain it seems silly without any explanation from the devs or the manual, the going notion seems to be that this is a bug. of course, the devs have the final say in this, and we'll only truly know if it's on purpose or not with a word from them. i guess we'll know if they fix it in a patch, or flat out tell us that's the way it's supposed to be, and they just forgot to scribble it down in the manual somewhere.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And does it matter, really? If it is a bug, then it is a bug the game has been balanced with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not so sure there...
I think it was coil who said that carapace is supposed to make a Skulk survive no more than 1 additional LMG bullet. That can't be true with this additional damage negation. In fact carapace is so incredibly useful that there is little disagreement about which upgrade chamber should be build first in all games and situations.
Testing is NOT done mathematically guys. It's done thru actual gameplay. Who needs an elaborate story to WHY aliens health absorbs? If it was not meant to be there, or was... either way, it has made it thru rigorous testing and will prolly stay that way. Granted it was an interesting find by terminotaur (hey wassup man <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ), but is it a bug? No, it's part of the current gameplay balance scheme, period.
Buuut. For those of you who want it, a valid argument would be to say "how can an alien even have armor? Isn't health and armor one and the same for them?" Sure it is why not, theres your excuse for why the dmg is being absroebd to health <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (aka does it really matter?)
This is not a bug, Carapace adds a bit to the armor level on the first level only and gives 20% damage absorption, with an additional 20% damage absorption for each additional level (but no more armor increases)
As far as the explination, yes it should work even after armor is 0.
First we are assuming that armor refers to a hard outer layer or shell of the alien.
Second, in the manual, it describes the defense upgrades as being cellular changes made within the alien underneath the skin (in between the skin and muscle layers) So what this means for carapace is that that mass underneath the skin parts a bit, the cells near and adjacent to the aliens armor blends in to the armor, creating even more, but the area underneath that becomes shock and damage absorbant material, taking some of the shock of the bullets and providing a bit of give to the armor on top, as well as extra padding to the muscles and organs below. When the outer armor is gone, the absorbant material is still there.
A player tester once said carapace is supposed to add one extra bullet at most to a level 3 carapace skulk. Thats not the case(yes I have tested, level three carapace saps a marines chance against a skulk buy a large amount...), so it either a: they changed things up and didn't give the pt in question a memo or b: its a bug.
Edit: Additionally, if its supposed to still round off damage even after armor is gone, whats the point of having an armor value? (It does 3-4 points extra when the armor is gone, so that could be true, but you make it sound like its supposed to still take off all the damage it does with armor, without armor.)
I'd hate to think what would happen to your discussion if there was a CS-type hitbox, with different toughness of different pers of body <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
IF its a bug the <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> needs only 1 or 2 more bulets to kill the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> but whot about the <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> you need 2 more clips ...
This is not a bug, Carapace adds a bit to the armor level on the first level only and gives 20% damage absorption, with an additional 20% damage absorption for each additional level (but no more armor increases)
material is still there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> way to go! you replied without reading the thread!
the debate here is about NEGATION! I.E. part of the dammage simply flys into the air and is not subtracted from armor OR health.
I think we should just ignore it, it seems pretty balanced as it is. Was it a bug? A feature? Who cares? It's pretty balanced so lets leave it at that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--SoDum+Nov 18 2002, 06:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoDum @ Nov 18 2002, 06:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A player tester once said carapace is supposed to add one extra bullet at most to a level 3 carapace skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and this just makes no sense, 1 extra LMG bullet will buy you what, .06 seconds of extra life? carapace would be worthless even at level 3. I think it works perfectly right now.
Just relaying what was spoken. Btw if that is the case i think it was more meant for fades and up. But maybe not. Who knows. I like it as it is, because i play skulk and lerk more often than not, but if its a bug it should be fixed.
The current Armor system (different for Marines and Aliens) makes perfect sense.
For Marines, Armor works like this:
Marine with 100 Health and 200 Heavy Armor (95% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Bilebomb. 95% of the damage = 76 damage is applied to armor. This damage is halved to 38. Remaining damage = 4 damage is applied to health. Marine takes 42 damage total.
Marine with 100 Health and 20 Heavy Armor (95% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Bilebomb. 20 armor can absorb, at most, 40 damage. Thus, only 40 damage is applied to armor. This is halved to 20 and completely destroys the Armor. Remaining damage = 40 damage is applied to health. Marine takes 60 damage total.
Marine with 100 Health and no Armor gets hit by a 80 damage Bilebomb. Marine takes 80 damage.
You can see that the Marine takes much more damage after he runs out of Armor. However, the "initial" damage values applied (before halving) are constant whether he has armor or not; its just that since Armor takes half damage, he takes less final damage when he has armor.
Note that the total amount of damage the Marine can take is, to some extent, independent of Absorption value. A Marine with 100 health and 200 armor can take 500 points of damage before dying, no matter if he has 80% Absorption or 95% Absorption or 100% Absorption. At 80% absorption, his health and armor will die at exactly the same time, and at 100% absorption his health will work like Classic Half-Life. (shields take 400 points of damage and die, then health takes 100 points of damage) But either way he takes 500 total damage to kill.
For Aliens, armor works differently. Onos with 500 Health and 150 Armor (30% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade. 30% damage = 24 damage goes to Armor. This is halved to 12 damage. Remaining damage = 56 damage goes to Health. Onos takes 68 damage total.
Onos with 500 Health and 0 Armor (30% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade. 30% damage = 24 damage is halved. It doesnt' matter that there is no Armor, this damage is halved anyways. Remaining damage = 56 damage goes to Health. Both the halved damage and normal damage are applied to Health (since there is no Armor), so the Onos takes 68 damage to Health.
Unlike the Marine, who takes much more damage without armor than with, the Onos takes the same amount of damage with and without armor. However, this actually means the Onos is taking much less damage after he runs out of Armor, compared to a Marine. A marine with no armor takes full damage from any attack, which is much more than damage with Armor. In contrast, an Onos with no armor takes the same amount of damage he'd take if he had full armor. This effect becomes very pronounced with multiple Carapace upgrades:
Onos with 500 Health and 200 Armor (60% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade. 60% damage = 48 damage is halved to 24, and applied to Armor. Remaining damage = 32 damage is applied to Health. Onos takes 56 damage total.
Onos with 500 Health and 0 Armor (60% absorb) gets hit by 80 damage Grenade. 60% damage = 48 damage is halved to 24. Remaining damage = 32 is taken straight. Onos takes 56 damage to Health.
Now, instead of taking 80 damage like a Marine with 0 armor would, the Onos takes a mere 56 damage from the hit.
You'd think that this is an unfair advantage for the Aliens, but it really is not. The reason is because of the way the upgrades are done.
Going from 0/0 to 0/3, the Marine gains 45% more armor, or 36% more total (HP+2*Armor). (note the magical number 36% - the standard full upgrade effectiveness in classic RTS games)
Going from 0/0 to 0/3, the Onos only gains 33% more armor, but in terms of total (HP+2*Armor) this is a pathetic 12.5% extra hitpoints. If Armor worked for aliens the same way it works for Marines, there would be no reason to ever upgrade your Carapace. Instead, the extra absorb value means that the Onos has an effective HP of:
0 Carapace : effective HP = 765 1 Carapace : effective HP = 875 2 Carapace : effective HP = 933 3 Carapace : effective HP = 1000
Instead, a level 3 Carapace Onos has 31% more longevity than a no-Carapace Onos. Interestingly, this is less than the "magic number 36%", but it is almost exactly equal to the +30% bonus damage that a 3/0 Marine Weapons Upgrade gives. If you calculate this value for every other species of Kharaa, you get:
Skulk: 0 carapace : 70/10/30% = 94 eHP 3 carapace : 70/30/60% = 143 eHP = 54% improvement note : Skulk gets by far the biggest benefit, but even with carapace a skulk dies in milliseconds to heavy machine gun.
Gorge: 0 carapace : 100/50/30% = 176 eHP 3 carapace : 100/75/60% = 250 eHP = 42% improvement note : The Gorge is probably the best Kharaa to get Carapace on; he doesnt need regeneration since he's likely to be around defense chambers, and the fully defense upgraded Gorge has fully 1/3 the toughness of an unupgraded Onos.
Lerk: 0 carapace : 60/50/30% = 86 eHP if HP dies before Armor (less than a skulk!!!), 129 eHP if armor and health are assumed to die at the same time. (which happens if you Regenerate HP while your armor is getting shot) 3 carapace : 60/75/60% = 150 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 193 eHP if both die at the same time (Unlikely, since you dont have Regeneration) note : Unlike any other Alien, the Lerk has so little HP and so much Armor that your HP is almost guaranteed to die before your Armor does. Regeneration and Carapace are both good upgrades for the Lerk, it really depends on if your going to be near Defense chambers (then carapace is far and away superior) or if you are going to be deep in enemy territory.
Fade: 0 carapace : 200/125/30% = 286 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 382 eHP if armor and health die at the same time. 3 carapace : 200/150/60% = 500 eHP. HP and Armor die at exactly the same time. 75% improvement with level 3 Carapace! EDIT : My original calculation was incorrect, because actually the unupgraded Fade's HP will run out long before his Armor does - thus he actually dies MUCH sooner than I calculated. Actually, the level 3 Carapace is awesomely powerful for Fade. The only reason most Fades go for Regeneration is because the Fade is inherently a hit and run unit and benefits even more from regen. However, I must say that after calculating this, I'll give much more thought to going Carapace instead of Regen as a Fade. Don't look at that measly 25 armor increase and conclude that Carapace sucks, the increase in Absorption percentage is really what matters!
Marines: 0/0 : 100/50/30% = 143 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 200 eHP otherwise 0/1 : 100/70/40% = 167 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 240 eHP otherwise 0/2 : 100/90/50% = 200 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 280 eHP otherwise 0/3 : 100/110/60% = 250 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 320 eHP otherwise Total improvement = 75% - MUCH bigger difference than any Alien could imagine. You're not imagining it - the increased lifespan from more Marine armor is overwhelmingly greater than what any alien carapace upgrade can give. 2 Skulk bites can kill a 0/0 Marine, but it takes a full 4 Skulk bites to kill a 0/3 Marine! No wonder Skulks are so pathetic in the late game - even Light Armor becomes resistant to them.
Heavy Armor: 0/0 : 100/200/95% = 500 eHP 0/1 : 100/230/95% = 560 eHP 0/2 : 100/260/95% = 620 eHP 0/3 : 100/290/95% = 680 eHP Total improvement = Magic Number 36% The Heavy Armor gets an armor improvement slightly better than an onos or fade. 680 eHP gives the fully upgraded heavy armor nearly as much durability as a non-upgraded Onos! At any level, the Heavy Armor is ~3 times more durable than light armor, but the difference between light and heavy armor shrinks dramatically at high Armor Upgrade levels - a level 3 Light Armor is half as good as level 0 Heavy Armor.
So we see that the differently working Alien armor upgrade is necessary for the Carapace upgrade to be useful. In fact, even with the more powerful alien Armor, the marine armor upgrades are still much better than alien armor upgrades. (of course, regeneration is better yet ^^) Clearly, armor works exactly the way its supposed to, for both sides.
Comments
I was simply showing how armour is said to work
and if you read fams post, I think he ment that you don't get more armour you get better armour (not better HP)
again, I am simply showing how it says the game works
if it is the case that you are receving the DMG reduction even if the armour is not there to absorbe it, then it is a bug so far as I can see
PLEASE COULD A DEV HELP ME I AM GOING INSANE (most of what ppl are arguing over is wording, ppl keep trying to say that I am saying the bug dosn't exist, I am not)
bah could a DEV clear this up??
Thank you
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fam said that the aliens LIFE also reduces damage.. NOT just the armor. And no, the marines do not have this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you even played this game? <b> YES, THE MARINES DO HAVE THIS, IN TWO DIFFERENT FORMATS</b>
<b>1.</b> The armor upgrades from the arms lab does the same thing that carapace does. (maybe not the exact numbers but it is the same function)
<b>2.</b> Heavy armor gives an INSANE amount of absorb, more than ANY OTHER THING IN THE GAME.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fam said that the aliens LIFE also reduces damage.. NOT just the armor. And no, the marines do not have this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you even played this game? <b> YES, THE MARINES DO HAVE THIS, IN TWO DIFFERENT FORMATS</b>
<b>1.</b> The armor upgrades from the arms lab does the same thing that carapace does. (maybe not the exact numbers but it is the same function)
<b>2.</b> Heavy armor gives an INSANE amount of absorb, more than ANY OTHER THING IN THE GAME.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not what I mean, **obscenity**! How about you read what he said?
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Just having 0 armor and being shot is just a very quick way to realize the bug. With armor, the aliens still have very significant damage negation that isn't supposed to happen. The alien carapace is supposed to work like marine armor, but it doesn't. The distributions in the manual are just that, distributions. The way it is supposed to work is that the full damage is taken, a percent damage goes to health, and the rest is halved and sent to armor. Marines work this way. However, aliens don't take this full damage. They negate some damage and then distribute the damage between the health and the rest halved to armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine's <b>HEALTH, <u>NOT</u> ARMOR, <i>HEALTH</i></b> doesn't get damage absorb.. if it does then I'm on crack because I always see the dame damage being done from bite.
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not!
their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not!
their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really because once you take the armor away.. it's gone..
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not!
their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really because once you take the armor away.. it's gone..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see thats exactly the point im trying to make....the aliens' armor is really just the toughening (i know thats prolly spelled wrong) of their skin. so really, their entire body is their armor. the armor counter on ur HUD could be thought of to represent just the outermost, toughest layer, but everything underneath is still armored as well, just not as much.
Acutal that makes no @#$@$ sense at all but lemme go with it for a second
Ok your saying that not only is the hard outer skin armor but theres a second Magic Armor Skin right underneath that never takes affect till the first one is shot off and magicly hops out of the wall of bullets that make it through the First layer?
Ok ok, we are already kicking over half a dozen Biology laws with the whole Concept of Skulk->Onos what the hell lets shoot a few more down <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
just add whatever armor they had to their health, then caraspace will add more to health and %damage absorb.
With no upgrade, a skulk takes 16 pts of damage from a pistol shot. With no armor left, it takes 18 damage.
And does it matter, really? If it is a bug, then it is a bug the game has been balanced with. "Fixing" the bug
would mean adjusting the formula and then upping all the armor and/or health values to get the same survivability as today anyhow.
the way the alien carparice works makes perfect sense.
think about it, are they aliens running around wearing armored vests?? of course not!
their armor is a part of their bodies
therefore its always there, the little armor counter there could be considered the first layer of their armored skin. once that's gone what about all the other layers underneath?
the marines on the otherhand ARE wearing vests and such, so when that runs out, their soft little hides are getting munched on.
makes sense doesnt it??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm, if i heard correctly when u have no upgrade to carapace u still take full damage with the 50 armor as skul. when u start out.
and a dev hasn't read this yet......... Someone plz clear this up!! read!
With no upgrade, a skulk takes 16 pts of damage from a pistol shot. With no armor left, it takes 18 damage.
And does it matter, really? If it is a bug, then it is a bug the game has been balanced with. "Fixing" the bug
would mean adjusting the formula and then upping all the armor and/or health values to get the same survivability as today anyhow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See? Now this guy knows what he's talking about.
Like Fam said- an aliens body also negates part of the damage. Think of it as a natural toughness- even without armor the skin needs to be penetrated. Aliens have tough skin, what can I say? Marines are soft and yummy.
In this pistol example, I'd say it's 10%
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Why go to all that trouble to make the marine guns do a certain, specific amount of damage when they're never going to do that damage to an alien anyway? If an lmg bullet is SUPPOSED to do 7 damage when they have no armor, as you say, then why is it listed as doing 10 damage? If you tell me it's only valid against structures, I'd wonder why structures don't have the same unmentioned, undocumented toughness the aliens themselves have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fam said that the aliens LIFE also reduces damage.. NOT just the armor. And no, the marines do not have this..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i was asking why it was stupid for the alien armor upgrades to upgrade damage resistance. you misread what i said, graviton.
I wish I could smack you until you died <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
i think the question at hand is, is this a feature? since it's completely undocumented in the manual and the idea of damage negation without armor to explain it seems silly without any explanation from the devs or the manual, the going notion seems to be that this is a bug. of course, the devs have the final say in this, and we'll only truly know if it's on purpose or not with a word from them. i guess we'll know if they fix it in a patch, or flat out tell us that's the way it's supposed to be, and they just forgot to scribble it down in the manual somewhere.
I'm not so sure there...
I think it was coil who said that carapace is supposed to make a Skulk survive no more than 1 additional LMG bullet. That can't be true with this additional damage negation. In fact carapace is so incredibly useful that there is little disagreement about which upgrade chamber should be build first in all games and situations.
Buuut. For those of you who want it, a valid argument would be to say "how can an alien even have armor? Isn't health and armor one and the same for them?" Sure it is why not, theres your excuse for why the dmg is being absroebd to health <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (aka does it really matter?)
This is not a bug, Carapace adds a bit to the armor level on the first level only and gives 20% damage absorption, with an additional 20% damage absorption for each additional level (but no more armor increases)
As far as the explination, yes it should work even after armor is 0.
First we are assuming that armor refers to a hard outer layer or shell of the alien.
Second, in the manual, it describes the defense upgrades as being cellular changes made within the alien underneath the skin (in between the skin and muscle layers) So what this means for carapace is that that mass underneath the skin parts a bit, the cells near and adjacent to the aliens armor blends in to the armor, creating even more, but the area underneath that becomes shock and damage absorbant material, taking some of the shock of the bullets and providing a bit of give to the armor on top, as well as extra padding to the muscles and organs below. When the outer armor is gone, the absorbant material is still there.
Edit: Additionally, if its supposed to still round off damage even after armor is gone, whats the point of having an armor value? (It does 3-4 points extra when the armor is gone, so that could be true, but you make it sound like its supposed to still take off all the damage it does with armor, without armor.)
This is not a bug, Carapace adds a bit to the armor level on the first level only and gives 20% damage absorption, with an additional 20% damage absorption for each additional level (but no more armor increases)
material is still there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
way to go! you replied without reading the thread!
the debate here is about NEGATION! I.E. part of the dammage simply flys into the air and is not subtracted from armor OR health.
I think we should just ignore it, it seems pretty balanced as it is. Was it a bug? A feature? Who cares? It's pretty balanced so lets leave it at that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and this just makes no sense, 1 extra LMG bullet will buy you what, .06 seconds of extra life? carapace would be worthless even at level 3. I think it works perfectly right now.
For Marines, Armor works like this:
Marine with 100 Health and 200 Heavy Armor (95% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Bilebomb.
95% of the damage = 76 damage is applied to armor. This damage is halved to 38.
Remaining damage = 4 damage is applied to health.
Marine takes 42 damage total.
Marine with 100 Health and 20 Heavy Armor (95% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Bilebomb.
20 armor can absorb, at most, 40 damage. Thus, only 40 damage is applied to armor. This is halved to 20 and completely destroys the Armor.
Remaining damage = 40 damage is applied to health.
Marine takes 60 damage total.
Marine with 100 Health and no Armor gets hit by a 80 damage Bilebomb.
Marine takes 80 damage.
You can see that the Marine takes much more damage after he runs out of Armor. However, the "initial" damage values applied (before halving) are constant whether he has armor or not; its just that since Armor takes half damage, he takes less final damage when he has armor.
Note that the total amount of damage the Marine can take is, to some extent, independent of Absorption value. A Marine with 100 health and 200 armor can take 500 points of damage before dying, no matter if he has 80% Absorption or 95% Absorption or 100% Absorption. At 80% absorption, his health and armor will die at exactly the same time, and at 100% absorption his health will work like Classic Half-Life. (shields take 400 points of damage and die, then health takes 100 points of damage) But either way he takes 500 total damage to kill.
For Aliens, armor works differently.
Onos with 500 Health and 150 Armor (30% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade.
30% damage = 24 damage goes to Armor. This is halved to 12 damage.
Remaining damage = 56 damage goes to Health.
Onos takes 68 damage total.
Onos with 500 Health and 0 Armor (30% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade.
30% damage = 24 damage is halved. It doesnt' matter that there is no Armor, this damage is halved anyways.
Remaining damage = 56 damage goes to Health.
Both the halved damage and normal damage are applied to Health (since there is no Armor), so the Onos takes 68 damage to Health.
Unlike the Marine, who takes much more damage without armor than with, the Onos takes the same amount of damage with and without armor. However, this actually means the Onos is taking much less damage after he runs out of Armor, compared to a Marine. A marine with no armor takes full damage from any attack, which is much more than damage with Armor. In contrast, an Onos with no armor takes the same amount of damage he'd take if he had full armor. This effect becomes very pronounced with multiple Carapace upgrades:
Onos with 500 Health and 200 Armor (60% absorb) gets hit by a 80 damage Grenade.
60% damage = 48 damage is halved to 24, and applied to Armor.
Remaining damage = 32 damage is applied to Health.
Onos takes 56 damage total.
Onos with 500 Health and 0 Armor (60% absorb) gets hit by 80 damage Grenade.
60% damage = 48 damage is halved to 24.
Remaining damage = 32 is taken straight.
Onos takes 56 damage to Health.
Now, instead of taking 80 damage like a Marine with 0 armor would, the Onos takes a mere 56 damage from the hit.
You'd think that this is an unfair advantage for the Aliens, but it really is not. The reason is because of the way the upgrades are done.
Heavy Armor Marine:
0/0 upgrades : 100/200 HP/Armor, 95% absorb.
0/1 upgrades : 100/230 HP/Armor, 95% absorb.
0/2 upgrades : 100/260 HP/Armor, 95% absorb.
0/3 upgrades : 100/290 HP/Armor, 95% absorb.
Going from 0/0 to 0/3, the Marine gains 45% more armor, or 36% more total (HP+2*Armor). (note the magical number 36% - the standard full upgrade effectiveness in classic RTS games)
Onos:
0 Carapace : 500/150 HP/Armor, 30% absorb.
1 Carapace : 500/200 HP/Armor, 40% absorb.
2 Carapace : 500/200 HP/Armor, 50% absorb.
3 Carapace : 500/200 HP/Armor, 60% absorb.
Going from 0/0 to 0/3, the Onos only gains 33% more armor, but in terms of total (HP+2*Armor) this is a pathetic 12.5% extra hitpoints. If Armor worked for aliens the same way it works for Marines, there would be no reason to ever upgrade your Carapace. Instead, the extra absorb value means that the Onos has an effective HP of:
0 Carapace : effective HP = 765
1 Carapace : effective HP = 875
2 Carapace : effective HP = 933
3 Carapace : effective HP = 1000
Instead, a level 3 Carapace Onos has 31% more longevity than a no-Carapace Onos. Interestingly, this is less than the "magic number 36%", but it is almost exactly equal to the +30% bonus damage that a 3/0 Marine Weapons Upgrade gives. If you calculate this value for every other species of Kharaa, you get:
Skulk:
0 carapace : 70/10/30% = 94 eHP
3 carapace : 70/30/60% = 143 eHP = 54% improvement
note : Skulk gets by far the biggest benefit, but even with carapace a skulk dies in milliseconds to heavy machine gun.
Gorge:
0 carapace : 100/50/30% = 176 eHP
3 carapace : 100/75/60% = 250 eHP = 42% improvement
note : The Gorge is probably the best Kharaa to get Carapace on; he doesnt need regeneration since he's likely to be around defense chambers, and the fully defense upgraded Gorge has fully 1/3 the toughness of an unupgraded Onos.
Lerk:
0 carapace : 60/50/30% = 86 eHP if HP dies before Armor (less than a skulk!!!), 129 eHP if armor and health are assumed to die at the same time. (which happens if you Regenerate HP while your armor is getting shot)
3 carapace : 60/75/60% = 150 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 193 eHP if both die at the same time (Unlikely, since you dont have Regeneration)
note : Unlike any other Alien, the Lerk has so little HP and so much Armor that your HP is almost guaranteed to die before your Armor does. Regeneration and Carapace are both good upgrades for the Lerk, it really depends on if your going to be near Defense chambers (then carapace is far and away superior) or if you are going to be deep in enemy territory.
Fade:
0 carapace : 200/125/30% = 286 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 382 eHP if armor and health die at the same time.
3 carapace : 200/150/60% = 500 eHP. HP and Armor die at exactly the same time. 75% improvement with level 3 Carapace!
EDIT : My original calculation was incorrect, because actually the unupgraded Fade's HP will run out long before his Armor does - thus he actually dies MUCH sooner than I calculated. Actually, the level 3 Carapace is awesomely powerful for Fade. The only reason most Fades go for Regeneration is because the Fade is inherently a hit and run unit and benefits even more from regen. However, I must say that after calculating this, I'll give much more thought to going Carapace instead of Regen as a Fade. Don't look at that measly 25 armor increase and conclude that Carapace sucks, the increase in Absorption percentage is really what matters!
Marines:
0/0 : 100/50/30% = 143 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 200 eHP otherwise
0/1 : 100/70/40% = 167 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 240 eHP otherwise
0/2 : 100/90/50% = 200 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 280 eHP otherwise
0/3 : 100/110/60% = 250 eHP if HP dies before Armor, 320 eHP otherwise
Total improvement = 75% - MUCH bigger difference than any Alien could imagine.
You're not imagining it - the increased lifespan from more Marine armor is overwhelmingly greater than what any alien carapace upgrade can give. 2 Skulk bites can kill a 0/0 Marine, but it takes a full 4 Skulk bites to kill a 0/3 Marine! No wonder Skulks are so pathetic in the late game - even Light Armor becomes resistant to them.
Heavy Armor:
0/0 : 100/200/95% = 500 eHP
0/1 : 100/230/95% = 560 eHP
0/2 : 100/260/95% = 620 eHP
0/3 : 100/290/95% = 680 eHP
Total improvement = Magic Number 36%
The Heavy Armor gets an armor improvement slightly better than an onos or fade. 680 eHP gives the fully upgraded heavy armor nearly as much durability as a non-upgraded Onos! At any level, the Heavy Armor is ~3 times more durable than light armor, but the difference between light and heavy armor shrinks dramatically at high Armor Upgrade levels - a level 3 Light Armor is half as good as level 0 Heavy Armor.
So we see that the differently working Alien armor upgrade is necessary for the Carapace upgrade to be useful. In fact, even with the more powerful alien Armor, the marine armor upgrades are still much better than alien armor upgrades. (of course, regeneration is better yet ^^) Clearly, armor works exactly the way its supposed to, for both sides.