Progression
Raneman
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Members
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Members
The last few builds have removed any sense of progression from the game. Rines no longer have to work towards structures and unlocks, and aliens are a ###### joke. It's like I'm playing Combat for NS1 where hives and strategy didn't matter and it was just a mindless ADHD shooter with some upgrades here and there. Why would you unchain life forms from hives other then to pander to crying baby alien players who want everything given to them? Who do marines need to be able to research everything in 5 minutes? What happened to consequences and having to work to keep ahead in the technological arms race?
Please, if you want to pander to casuals who want 5 minute games with no strategy (I blame the game blowing up on reddit for this new community) then please make a new gamemode called "Super Easy Combat Shooty Shooty Fun Time Mode" and leave the actual game to other people.
Please, if you want to pander to casuals who want 5 minute games with no strategy (I blame the game blowing up on reddit for this new community) then please make a new gamemode called "Super Easy Combat Shooty Shooty Fun Time Mode" and leave the actual game to other people.
Comments
Unlocking lifeforms from hives is a necessary change of mechanics, <b>and was also done in NS1</b>, as leaving it in puts far far too much emphasis on the second hive - if it went up, aliens won, if it didn't, they lost.
Rines had all upgrade costs literally halved for some reason.
It was made cheaper. Approx. halved for ARCs and Proto/JPs.
the community hasnt really changed, it just grows.
the community does not influence uwe in such a way that every change in the game mechanics relies on it.
comparing ns2 to ns1 combat isnt even worth answering. to be honest, i dont even know why i am answering such an immature post at all..
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117718" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117718</a>
I made a topic about it in the ideas and suggestions forums.
Well, in NS1, if a team saved up early game they could get an early onos off.
In NS2, if a team saves up early game they can get 8 early onoses at once off.
Does it bother you that much that the mechanics in res flow are not 100% like in ns1?
COMBAT IDEAS, REMOVE THEM, or make it less noticeable. This game is becoming other form of COD, need I say dumbed-down version of ns1?
charlie you should of made classic, and combat mode. OR limit combat ideas.
That's typically an extra IP (10 total) + armory (20 total) + shotguns (35) + mines (45) + obs (60) + arms lab (80) + 1 weap, 2armor upgrades (150). This is when fades are coming out.
So here you have shotty marines with 1-2 upgrades against carapaced hive 1 fades. Advantage marine, but not insurmountable for aliens. This is expected given the marines have been "winning" up to this point by holding 4 RTs without losing anything.
There is at least another 200 more res worth of tech available without even considering building forward armories, phase gates, turrets, etc. This is also not taking into consideration marines actually losing buildings, which will obviously greatly slow down teching.
In an average game, you're looking at 15 minutes for marines to hit max tech. More if it's a slugfest or aliens are winning, less if marines are dominating.
TL;DR Your opinion that there may be too many mechanics lifted from combat may be a reasonable discussion, but your "facts" are completely made up.
I'd rather the players enforce a certain acceptable speed of teching (by scouting/attacking creatively) than the game restrict players. The pre-b201 tech felt really clunky, like the game was dragging itself out..
Perhaps they should even consider slowing the p.res gain form 1/4 to 1/5.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In an average game, you're looking at 15 minutes for marines to hit max tech. More if it's a slugfest or aliens are winning, less if marines are dominating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly do think this is too fast to be honest, it should take at least 20 - 30 minutes before all tech can be researched in an optimal scenario (i.e 4 harvesters not being contested) Though like I said, EXOs are coming, as are ARC, MAC and JP upgrades. So we may still hit that number. Cheaper upgrades and buildings was not a necessary step to make marines competitive, they could have just hit the p.res gain (since that mainly affects the aliens) or any other number of areas to slow down alien gameplay and give marines enough time to tech (rather than speeding up marine tech). IMO speeding marine tech is the less desirable path to making marines competitive. (Since you are not addressing the root issue, you're only addressing one of several symptoms)
<!--quoteo(post=1924895:date=Apr 13 2012, 12:30 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 13 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lvl 0 armor vs vanilla skulks is the most fun portion of the game right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I get that lifeforms are unchained for a number of reasons, one of them being "fun". But the past few changes have drastically increased the speed of the game, the pacing. The feeling of careful pacing by the marines, the hiding and stalking of the skulks has been lost in my opinion. These are all just my opinion and i think it's something that should really be looked at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather the players enforce a certain acceptable speed of teching (by scouting/attacking creatively) than the game restrict players. The pre-b201 tech felt really clunky, like the game was dragging itself out..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It did feel like it was dragging itself out, but the speed at which matches end now - is completely insane.
I agree, though again unchaining lifeforms had very little to do with this. Aliens could get a second hive at 3 - 5 minutes depending on the map anyway. Unchaining lifeforms was necessary to make aliens competitive even at 1-hive. What they need to do IMO is:
- Slow down alien expansion, both in terms of hvies as in terms of extractors and map control in general
- Make some more adjustments to marine tech costs, if alien expansion is slowed some marine tech can be increased in cost again as well
- Provide aliens with more viable T.res choices , improve the importance of shade/crag and upgrade choices.
Alternatively they can cut p.res gain or just change the alien starting T. and P. resources.
I think most players don't want this combat/classic hybrid, it's the slower paced gameplay of NS 1 that made it so fantastic (and even scary at times).
upgraded version of the ADAD shooter that was NS1
Probably me playing Quake. Some guy asked if I had Parkinson's disease because of all the twitching and mouse shaking I do while playing that.
I do agree with the comments above, but let's take the arc for example. Once it is able to be upgraded i see a much weaker ARC initially due to the fact you CAN upgrade it. Without the upgrade options you couldn't have a weak ARC in the game and expect it to be used.
Like wise the way NS1 balanced alien lifeforms was through the chambers. A hive one MC Onos was rarely seen because it was pretty much death. Even if you had a DC hive one the Onos was really lacking in utility. Once you got two hives with MC+SC or MC+DC it opened up a lot more options and beefier lifeforms. Combine that with abilities being unlocked per hive and you had a hard limit on alien tech without it killing the fun of the game. It put emphasis on Hive two without totally gimping aliens hive one.
We are missing the third chamber and an ability shuffle on the alien side. They are still tweaking abilities (i.e. bile bomb) and trying stuff out. In Charlie's document i think he stated he didn't want magic number floating around such as life and armor increases per hive and abilities being limited per hive as well. I think both together are a mistake. I understand the intent behind them but i don't agree.
We really need a feature complete game asap before we can start standardizing game play and fixing balance issues. The game feels wrong some how and i think to get it polished for release there needs to be less shuffling and more features completed. The last month really should be balance issues and performance gains. I worry we might see another release slip by. Though i would rather see that than an incomplete game hit shelves. Fans are VERY unforgiving and a lot of games have tried to release and add later with total failure resulting.
FF14, Age of Conan and Global Agenda to name a couple awesome games that weren't feature complete and died out quickly.
i guess you need to have many viable, winning, partial tech up paths - so you don't get everybody turtling forever to get that last uber-upgrade.
I don't see how else you are going to address the problem, tying only abilities to hives is NOT going to fix the issue for the onos, since an onos without stomp is still very much a problem. (Unlike for example fades and lerks who become a lot more powerful with the 2nd hive). I agree balance isn't or shouldn't be top priority when the game is still feature incomplete, but there's very often EASY fixes to mend the most pressing balance problems that exist today, and they will go a long way in keeping the current beta crowd content. Performance increases will do very little when the game is simply not enjoyable because of huge balance issues.
I don't see how else you are going to address the problem, tying only abilities to hives is NOT going to fix the issue for the onos, since an onos without stomp is still very much a problem. (Unlike for example fades and lerks who become a lot more powerful with the 2nd hive). I agree balance isn't or shouldn't be top priority when the game is still feature incomplete, but there's very often EASY fixes to mend the most pressing balance problems that exist today, and they will go a long way in keeping the current beta crowd content. Performance increases will do very little when the game is simply not enjoyable because of huge balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you. I didn't mean balancing shouldn't happen at all, but some of the changes wont be needed later on with the game being feature complete. The onos scaling with hives is also what i think the fix would be, but abilities also per hive. The onos needs a ability review. His gore should NOT be a easy mode knock down for starters and stomp should be hive two.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->His gore should NOT be a easy mode knock down for starters and stomp should be hive two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
stomp is hive 2
Didnt know that changed, thnx. Havent touched Onos in a patch or two due to my terrible fading lol (practice practice practice.)
i thought stomp has always been hive 2, smash has always been hive 1 (the heavy hitting anti-structure attack)
<!--quoteo(post=1925039:date=Apr 13 2012, 03:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 13 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Probably me playing Quake. Some guy asked if I had Parkinson's disease because of all the twitching and mouse shaking I do while playing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was winding up for the double whammy of socratic questioning to dispel the false argument of any game being mindless and to get on their case about insulting a serious mental condition but you guys actually made me laugh