<!--quoteo(post=1925546:date=Apr 15 2012, 07:10 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Apr 15 2012, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We haven't settled on a direction for Alien Vision. There seems to be consensus in the office that there needs to be some sort of tradeoff for using it. What that trade off is, we are not yet entirely sure. The black pool concept you might have seen almost made it in, but we felft it was not up to scratch visually. Keep throwing ideas around guys, you are helping us figure it out!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please no trade off. In NS1 there wasn't any trade off, because for an ultra fast melee fighter it's just necessary to see the models right.
Quake doesn't need a trade off for bright models, why do you do?
Actually this is perfect: Aliens don't shoot, but see a lot; marines shoot, but have to use flashlights.
So why not making us seeing effects with AV and not having any trade off and we all are happy. Or why don't you just implement the mod, that makes the effect transparent, until the new AV comes out?
<b> Don't punish aliens for their seeing skills, it's racism.</b>
I like the current but I noticed that I play with it on 90 procent of the time, especially when playing as lerk, skulk and fade. There needs to be some trade-off, a reason not to have it on constantly, since it's such a waste of the amazing NS 2 graphics and effects. (And the general atmosphere).
IMO alien vision should show you the pheromones, under attack hives, parasited marines and all the other things that are currently shown as an overlay on the normal vision (those red markings they took over from Ns 1, don't know what they're called) Of course non parasited marines should still show up, but they should be less fluorescent or whatever, i.e a clear difference between parasited and non parasited.
I don't think the trade-off should be something that the alien can not see while using A-Vision. It just does not feel right. Possibly the A-Vision could become more blurry and intensified the longer you use it. And one can not spam the F-button to go in and out, but it has got a cooldown time.
@Xarius: Actually, my radical opinion is, that the aliens shouldn't even have a normal "human" vision. We already know that most animals on earth have a vison that differs vastly from our vision. And these creatures come from a totally different solar system. They home planet (if they have one, as a whole) probably even has a sun that emits a different spectrum of light.
I also don't understand why the Khaara (especially the skulks) should have a trade-off for using it. After all, they are supposed to have super-human reflexes. Because of air-control it is already hard enough to kill a regular good NS2 player.
But that view wouls make aliens play in it 24/7. Yes it looks really good and i'd like to see it in there but it looks too good to take off. Since you can see the marines easy enough but also see the world around you in high enough detail.
<!--quoteo(post=1925601:date=Apr 15 2012, 01:49 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Apr 15 2012, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But that view wouls make aliens play in it 24/7. Yes it looks really good and i'd like to see it in there but it looks too good to take off. Since you can see the marines easy enough but also see the world around you in high enough detail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And why don't you like people to use it always? The first thing I do in NS1 is pressing F after the countdown. Some don't use AV at all in NS1. It's kind of a choice of how you want it to look. Just like Quake bright models.
As I already said, aliens need it because they are fast and melee-only. It's hard to track marines that mix up with the background in some situations. And marines shouldn't really care. Because they do see enough. Flashlight is really useful and atmospheric as well (without r_atmospherics in third person ;) )
<!--quoteo(post=1925588:date=Apr 15 2012, 08:12 AM:name=Wolpertinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wolpertinger @ Apr 15 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also don't understand why the Khaara (especially the skulks) should have a trade-off for using it. After all, they are supposed to have super-human reflexes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that's true. The reflexes they have in the game's story world affect how they see things. You see, the eye muscles...
But seriously, I wish people wouldn't use the game's story/flavour to justify game mechanics. If we continue down that path, the marines get nukes and never send people in on the ground to fight the aliens because they simply don't need to. At some point, you need to be able to tell people why a mechanic makes sense from a point of view that has NOTHING to do with storytelling, 1980s sci-fi nostalgia and all that other stuff. It has to be about how it fits into the game logic and the experiences the players on both teams will have. In the case of alien vision, it's something half the players can use - they use it by pushing a button and instantly receiving a gigantic bonus with no practical downside (provided their framerate can handle it).
<b>Marines in light armor suits should be able to run for more than 10 seconds without getting tired. After all, they went through basic training.</b>
Turning on brightskins doesn't let you see through rockets, grenades, nails, plasma etc. That's the difference, and it's what makes alien vision in NS2 incredibly obnoxious.
Oh, and the other difference? It's available to <i>all</i> players, because Quake doesn't have asymmetric teams. So you don't have a duel where 1 guy can use brightskins, and the other guy is using the teal bones skin on aerowalk so you can't see it at range half the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1925665:date=Apr 15 2012, 05:14 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 15 2012, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Turning on brightskins doesn't let you see through rockets, grenades, nails, plasma etc. That's the difference, and it's what makes alien vision in NS2 incredibly obnoxious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That't why I was referring to NS1's AV. I don't like the current NS2 version because of exactly this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and the other difference? It's available to <i>all</i> players, because Quake doesn't have asymmetric teams. So you don't have a duel where 1 guy can use brightskins, and the other guy is using the teal bones skin on aerowalk so you can't see it at range half the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't refer to balance, I meant the choice of how you feel tracking enemies the best. I never had a problem as a marine to see an alien in NS2, if needed I use the flashlight. I always have problems tracking a rine in close combat, so I use AV all the time. Not everyone will feel like that, so there should be a choice, just like in quake. A choice without a trade off. Just like in NS1, it was perfect, why change it? No marine ever said 'that kill was only because of AV'.
Edit: Now that I think about it I sometimes wished to have AV as marine in NS1, because of the bad contrast skulks had in the HL engine. Then again I thought 'that's why I have a gun'. And the dynamic light makes the alien tracking perfectly acceptable, in HL it was only usable in third person.
<!--quoteo(post=1925950:date=Apr 16 2012, 07:38 PM:name=zastels)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zastels @ Apr 16 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the way it is. I do not like the "trade off" approach to game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the current version has a trade off. You don't see anything relevant except enemies...
What if the alien vision amplified heat based effects (flames, explosions and the like). Meaning that if you use alien vision the marines can make it harder for you to see if they use flamethrowers or grenade launchers, forcing you to switch out of it or have harder time seeing anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1925951:date=Apr 16 2012, 07:40 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Apr 16 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the current version has a trade off. You don't see anything relevant except enemies...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah it's not good to see the most relevant things while the oponents can't.
<!--quoteo(post=1925985:date=Apr 16 2012, 09:22 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 16 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah it's not good to see the most relevant things while the oponents can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1925601:date=Apr 15 2012, 01:49 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Apr 15 2012, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But that view wouls make aliens play in it 24/7. Yes it looks really good and i'd like to see it in there but it looks too good to take off. Since you can see the marines easy enough but also see the world around you in high enough detail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't need to hold back the actual vision mechanic in order to have a trade off. You could always make it drain energy, make the alien's eyes glow in the dark, make it an upgrade, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1925964:date=Apr 16 2012, 09:19 PM:name=Maukka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maukka @ Apr 16 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if the alien vision amplified heat based effects (flames, explosions and the like). Meaning that if you use alien vision the marines can make it harder for you to see if they use flamethrowers or grenade launchers, forcing you to switch out of it or have harder time seeing anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea. Like bright colors / heat have sort off a burn-in effect on A-Vision. Would give the flamethrower some relevance, as well...
<!--quoteo(post=1926142:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:53 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Apr 16 2012, 10:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's funny is this topic keeps cropping up every month or so. I don't see why people can't just wait for when UWE decides to tweak the A-V. :\<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they haven't made it known that they plan to, or that they're aware of the problems with the current one? Because people care and want to offer their ideas?
<!--quoteo(post=1926142:date=Apr 17 2012, 03:53 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Apr 17 2012, 03:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's funny is this topic keeps cropping up every month or so. I don't see why people can't just wait for when UWE decides to tweak the A-V. :\<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And because they asked for ideas... on page 2 of this thread... that you haven't read... But thanks for your help on this topic. *head-shaking*
I'm all for twilightblues mod (linked also on page 2). <ul><li><b>We don't need a toggle.</b> If the textures and effects are all shown, like in the mentioned mod.</li><li><b>We don't need a tradeoff.</b> It doesn't grant easier kills. If it will be to easy for a skulk to hit and visually follow a marine with this, we can adjust the health or damage of the aliens in exchange. But this will not happen. It's frustrating for an alien player to lose sight of an jumping marine and die because of this. This is not a balanced game mechanic. It's simply not fun. Allowing the aliens to see the targets better won't lead to aliens that doesn't miss anymore. It just cuts an frustrating part of the game.</li></ul>
And if you really can't agree with that, here is a compromise: Hide mines and marine buildings in alien vision, but show effects like spore, flame, hive sight etc. Maybe even add a small energy drain (but less than energy regen is, so it doesn't drain your energy when not attacking, but will drain when biting / slashing).
The current system is just inconsistent in terms of what it is hiding and what it shows. It is not a fun tactical decision to activate or deactivate it. You have no time in combat to change the mode. Because this distracts even more. The glowing eyes are cool and sure are a tradeoff when hiding in a dark room. But overall I don't think it is needed. Its a beta. Just try it always on (but with high transparency like twilightblues mod) and we will see that it won't make the aliens inba.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
1) trade offs are a part of the game design whether you like it or not, read charlie's high level design doc. 2) you <b>need </b>to toggle it, because forcing that on everyone is nonsense. i dont use it. i dont need it. i dont want it. And if its toggle-able, how does that hurt those that want it on all the time, exactly? you have to push a button once?
lastly: simply improving alien vision will not fix an inability to track jumping marines that leave your FOV. thats camera position, fov, and other gameplay elements.
I talked to max at PAX, and they were mentioning like an eco location pinging of some sort for it as one of the ideas floating around. I loved the idea tbh.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1926145:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:57 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 16 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because they haven't made it known that they plan to, or that they're aware of the problems with the current one? Because people care and want to offer their ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A quick forum search brings up multiple threads that have addressed the same thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1926344:date=Apr 17 2012, 08:38 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 17 2012, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And because they asked for ideas... on page 2 of this thread... that you haven't read... But thanks for your help on this topic. *head-shaking*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did read the thread.. General isn't really the best place to throw ideas.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1925435:date=Apr 14 2012, 09:24 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Apr 14 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It makes no sense that you can see these things better: marines, geometry, grenades, structures, friendly players
but these things vanish in alien vision mode: infestation, blood effects, flames, explosions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien vision has been described as a form of sonar. It makes absolute sense that you can see solid structures, but not transparent effects like flames, blood etc. There are no textures in sonar, so you would not be able to tell if you were on infestation or not.
Really everything makes sense if you understand the story behind the implementation.
Of course it still needs massively improving, but not seeing flames/spores etc should stay in my opinion. Seeing textures would be nice though.
I disagree. The current system where you can't see spores is just unnecessary complicated. If I have AV on, I can see through the spores to battle effective, but can't see when the spores are vanished. If I have AV off, I can see that I'm covered with spores, but can't battle the marines, because I can't see them.
This is just unnecessary complicated and not really a fun mechanic. The spores should give the aliens an advantage not an annoyance. And they plan to make them even more transparent, so they wont be too unbalanced.
I write it again: Make the AV an advantage for the aliens. No need for a trade off. It will not scrap the balance. Just try it. Its a beta. And "trade offs are a part of the game design" isn't an argument against that. If there is no trade off needed, than it should not have one.
I think the main design goal should be that <b>players shouldn't need to change vision in the middle of a fight</b>. You already have a lot to do when fighting: keeping track of your enemy, movement, wall jumping, parasite, bites, keeping a eye on your health if your an higher life form. You definitely don't want to be switching back and forth between visions while all this is going on, specially because it's not instantaneous (the effect isn't and also your brain need some time to adapt to the new stimulus).
We must work together to build a brighter future for our alien brethren. We have a sweeping epidemic that is killing aliens en mass. Its called, alien vision. You may know someone with alien vision. They have a tendency to try hard and be very acute in finding targets. They are addicted and they can't stop. Alien vision kills. How many fades have you seen swiping at a nano shielded marine, wailing endlessly thinking hes about to kill the marine with a shotgun?
All of a sudden he falls over, dead, alien vision still glowing in his lifeless eyes.
You can help. Talk to your friends, your family. Donate to the NIAAAV, the National Institute for Aliens in Arms Against Alien Vision.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1926711:date=Apr 18 2012, 04:16 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 18 2012, 04:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. The current system where you can't see spores is just unnecessary complicated. If I have AV on, I can see through the spores to battle effective, but can't see when the spores are vanished. If I have AV off, I can see that I'm covered with spores, but can't battle the marines, because I can't see them.
This is just unnecessary complicated and not really a fun mechanic. The spores should give the aliens an advantage not an annoyance. And they plan to make them even more transparent, so they wont be too unbalanced.
I write it again: Make the AV an advantage for the aliens. No need for a trade off. It will not scrap the balance. Just try it. Its a beta. And "trade offs are a part of the game design" isn't an argument against that. If there is no trade off needed, than it should not have one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Timing your attack with the Lerk just right requires <i>teamwork</i>, and this is a reason enough why you shouldn't see spores in AV. It requires skill and planning between a min of two players and has a <b>high skill ceiling</b> as such. In a situation where one player obscures the vision of the enemy and weaken them for another player to finish them off - why do you have to make it <b>easier</b> for them? The final nail in this coffin is that when marines are spored they are then in your HIVESIGHT so you can see their red circle through the spores anyways without AV! Also spores are more transparent in 205 so this is less of an issue.
2)I get that it is your opinion that a trade off is not needed. But once again that's how this game is designed -<b> and that's the only argument i need.</b> :)
If you want a tradeoff, you could always make it work like a nightvision of sorts. In bright areas, it would be too bright to use comfortably. In dark areas, it would be perfect.
Comments
Please no trade off. In NS1 there wasn't any trade off, because for an ultra fast melee fighter it's just necessary to see the models right.
Quake doesn't need a trade off for bright models, why do you do?
Actually this is perfect: Aliens don't shoot, but see a lot; marines shoot, but have to use flashlights.
So why not making us seeing effects with AV and not having any trade off and we all are happy. Or why don't you just implement the mod, that makes the effect transparent, until the new AV comes out?
<b>
Don't punish aliens for their seeing skills, it's racism.</b>
IMO alien vision should show you the pheromones, under attack hives, parasited marines and all the other things that are currently shown as an overlay on the normal vision (those red markings they took over from Ns 1, don't know what they're called) Of course non parasited marines should still show up, but they should be less fluorescent or whatever, i.e a clear difference between parasited and non parasited.
I realy like this one:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=114172</a>
<img src="http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6296/ns2darkvision00.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Possibly the A-Vision could become more blurry and intensified the longer you use it. And one can not spam the F-button to go in and out, but it has got a cooldown time.
@Xarius: Actually, my radical opinion is, that the aliens shouldn't even have a normal "human" vision. We already know that most animals on earth have a vison that differs vastly from our vision. And these creatures come from a totally different solar system. They home planet (if they have one, as a whole) probably even has a sun that emits a different spectrum of light.
I also don't understand why the Khaara (especially the skulks) should have a trade-off for using it. After all, they are supposed to have super-human reflexes. Because of air-control it is already hard enough to kill a regular good NS2 player.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=114172</a>
<img src="http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6296/ns2darkvision00.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that view wouls make aliens play in it 24/7. Yes it looks really good and i'd like to see it in there but it looks too good to take off. Since you can see the marines easy enough but also see the world around you in high enough detail.
And why don't you like people to use it always? The first thing I do in NS1 is pressing F after the countdown. Some don't use AV at all in NS1. It's kind of a choice of how you want it to look. Just like Quake bright models.
As I already said, aliens need it because they are fast and melee-only. It's hard to track marines that mix up with the background in some situations.
And marines shouldn't really care. Because they do see enough. Flashlight is really useful and atmospheric as well (without r_atmospherics in third person ;) )
Yes, that's true. The reflexes they have in the game's story world affect how they see things. You see, the eye muscles...
But seriously, I wish people wouldn't use the game's story/flavour to justify game mechanics. If we continue down that path, the marines get nukes and never send people in on the ground to fight the aliens because they simply don't need to. At some point, you need to be able to tell people why a mechanic makes sense from a point of view that has NOTHING to do with storytelling, 1980s sci-fi nostalgia and all that other stuff. It has to be about how it fits into the game logic and the experiences the players on both teams will have. In the case of alien vision, it's something half the players can use - they use it by pushing a button and instantly receiving a gigantic bonus with no practical downside (provided their framerate can handle it).
<b>Marines in light armor suits should be able to run for more than 10 seconds without getting tired. After all, they went through basic training.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1925603:date=Apr 15 2012, 09:04 AM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Apr 15 2012, 09:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like Quake bright models.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turning on brightskins doesn't let you see through rockets, grenades, nails, plasma etc. That's the difference, and it's what makes alien vision in NS2 incredibly obnoxious.
Oh, and the other difference? It's available to <i>all</i> players, because Quake doesn't have asymmetric teams. So you don't have a duel where 1 guy can use brightskins, and the other guy is using the teal bones skin on aerowalk so you can't see it at range half the time.
That't why I was referring to NS1's AV. I don't like the current NS2 version because of exactly this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and the other difference? It's available to <i>all</i> players, because Quake doesn't have asymmetric teams. So you don't have a duel where 1 guy can use brightskins, and the other guy is using the teal bones skin on aerowalk so you can't see it at range half the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't refer to balance, I meant the choice of how you feel tracking enemies the best. I never had a problem as a marine to see an alien in NS2, if needed I use the flashlight. I always have problems tracking a rine in close combat, so I use AV all the time. Not everyone will feel like that, so there should be a choice, just like in quake. A choice without a trade off. Just like in NS1, it was perfect, why change it? No marine ever said 'that kill was only because of AV'.
Edit: Now that I think about it I sometimes wished to have AV as marine in NS1, because of the bad contrast skulks had in the HL engine. Then again I thought 'that's why I have a gun'.
And the dynamic light makes the alien tracking perfectly acceptable, in HL it was only usable in third person.
When I was showing my girlfriend NS2, I recall her saying how she thought the alien vision was very cool.
As it stands I think it could reveal a bit more level detail, someone on these forums already made a change to that.
But the current version has a trade off. You don't see anything relevant except enemies...
Yeah it's not good to see the most relevant things while the oponents can't.
?
Edit: No wait. You still got my post wrong. Or was 'Irony' sarcastic?
You don't need to hold back the actual vision mechanic in order to have a trade off. You could always make it drain energy, make the alien's eyes glow in the dark, make it an upgrade, etc.
Wait, what? ...
<!--quoteo(post=1925964:date=Apr 16 2012, 09:19 PM:name=Maukka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Maukka @ Apr 16 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if the alien vision amplified heat based effects (flames, explosions and the like). Meaning that if you use alien vision the marines can make it harder for you to see if they use flamethrowers or grenade launchers, forcing you to switch out of it or have harder time seeing anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea. Like bright colors / heat have sort off a burn-in effect on A-Vision. Would give the flamethrower some relevance, as well...
Because they haven't made it known that they plan to, or that they're aware of the problems with the current one?
Because people care and want to offer their ideas?
And because they asked for ideas... on page 2 of this thread... that you haven't read... But thanks for your help on this topic. *head-shaking*
I'm all for twilightblues mod (linked also on page 2).
<ul><li><b>We don't need a toggle.</b> If the textures and effects are all shown, like in the mentioned mod.</li><li><b>We don't need a tradeoff.</b> It doesn't grant easier kills. If it will be to easy for a skulk to hit and visually follow a marine with this, we can adjust the health or damage of the aliens in exchange. But this will not happen. It's frustrating for an alien player to lose sight of an jumping marine and die because of this. This is not a balanced game mechanic. It's simply not fun. Allowing the aliens to see the targets better won't lead to aliens that doesn't miss anymore. It just cuts an frustrating part of the game.</li></ul>
And if you really can't agree with that, here is a compromise:
Hide mines and marine buildings in alien vision, but show effects like spore, flame, hive sight etc.
Maybe even add a small energy drain (but less than energy regen is, so it doesn't drain your energy when not attacking, but will drain when biting / slashing).
The current system is just inconsistent in terms of what it is hiding and what it shows. It is not a fun tactical decision to activate or deactivate it. You have no time in combat to change the mode. Because this distracts even more. The glowing eyes are cool and sure are a tradeoff when hiding in a dark room. But overall I don't think it is needed. Its a beta. Just try it always on (but with high transparency like twilightblues mod) and we will see that it won't make the aliens inba.
2) you <b>need </b>to toggle it, because forcing that on everyone is nonsense. i dont use it. i dont need it. i dont want it. And if its toggle-able, how does that hurt those that want it on all the time, exactly? you have to push a button once?
lastly: simply improving alien vision will not fix an inability to track jumping marines that leave your FOV. thats camera position, fov, and other gameplay elements.
Because people care and want to offer their ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A quick forum search brings up multiple threads that have addressed the same thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1926344:date=Apr 17 2012, 08:38 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 17 2012, 08:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And because they asked for ideas... on page 2 of this thread... that you haven't read... But thanks for your help on this topic. *head-shaking*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did read the thread.. General isn't really the best place to throw ideas.
but these things vanish in alien vision mode: infestation, blood effects, flames, explosions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien vision has been described as a form of sonar. It makes absolute sense that you can see solid structures, but not transparent effects like flames, blood etc. There are no textures in sonar, so you would not be able to tell if you were on infestation or not.
Really everything makes sense if you understand the story behind the implementation.
Of course it still needs massively improving, but not seeing flames/spores etc should stay in my opinion. Seeing textures would be nice though.
If I have AV on, I can see through the spores to battle effective, but can't see when the spores are vanished.
If I have AV off, I can see that I'm covered with spores, but can't battle the marines, because I can't see them.
This is just unnecessary complicated and not really a fun mechanic. The spores should give the aliens an advantage not an annoyance.
And they plan to make them even more transparent, so they wont be too unbalanced.
I write it again: Make the AV an advantage for the aliens. No need for a trade off. It will not scrap the balance. Just try it. Its a beta.
And "trade offs are a part of the game design" isn't an argument against that. If there is no trade off needed, than it should not have one.
We must work together to build a brighter future for our alien brethren. We have a sweeping epidemic that is killing aliens en mass.
Its called, alien vision.
You may know someone with alien vision. They have a tendency to try hard and be very acute in finding targets. They are addicted and they can't stop. Alien vision kills.
How many fades have you seen swiping at a nano shielded marine, wailing endlessly thinking hes about to kill the marine with a shotgun?
All of a sudden he falls over, dead, alien vision still glowing in his lifeless eyes.
You can help. Talk to your friends, your family. Donate to the NIAAAV, the National Institute for Aliens in Arms Against Alien Vision.
Together, we can make a difference.
If I have AV on, I can see through the spores to battle effective, but can't see when the spores are vanished.
If I have AV off, I can see that I'm covered with spores, but can't battle the marines, because I can't see them.
This is just unnecessary complicated and not really a fun mechanic. The spores should give the aliens an advantage not an annoyance.
And they plan to make them even more transparent, so they wont be too unbalanced.
I write it again: Make the AV an advantage for the aliens. No need for a trade off. It will not scrap the balance. Just try it. Its a beta.
And "trade offs are a part of the game design" isn't an argument against that. If there is no trade off needed, than it should not have one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Timing your attack with the Lerk just right requires <i>teamwork</i>, and this is a reason enough why you shouldn't see spores in AV. It requires skill and planning between a min of two players and has a <b>high skill ceiling</b> as such. In a situation where one player obscures the vision of the enemy and weaken them for another player to finish them off - why do you have to make it <b>easier</b> for them? The final nail in this coffin is that when marines are spored they are then in your HIVESIGHT so you can see their red circle through the spores anyways without AV! Also spores are more transparent in 205 so this is less of an issue.
2)I get that it is your opinion that a trade off is not needed. But once again that's how this game is designed -<b> and that's the only argument i need.</b> :)