the mobile-ness of the lerk makes it hard to hit/kill (gorge in ns1 was very immobile AND VULNERABLE) add the weld locking on bilebomb, that even lasts TWICE THE BILEBOMB TIME and finally, add several lerks herassing a base NOW DO THE MATH!
lerks are now the top lifeform, they are almost impossible to kill, and in the unlucky case of dying, there's probably res enough to just relerk! THEY ARE THE NUMBER ONE GAME-BREAKER for marines right now. Onoses can be focused and chased with some success, fades die sometimes too - both need time to regain enough res, but lerk doesn't!
suggestion: start by making weld work at half effectiveness during bile. if this doesn't seem to change the balance much, remove the weldblock altogether.
<!--quoteo(post=1927495:date=Apr 19 2012, 10:36 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Apr 19 2012, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bilebomb is still INSANELY imba!
the mobile-ness of the lerk makes it hard to hit/kill (gorge in ns1 was very immobile AND VULNERABLE) add the weld locking on bilebomb, that even lasts TWICE THE BILEBOMB TIME and finally, add several lerks herassing a base NOW DO THE MATH!
lerks are now the top lifeform, they are almost impossible to kill, and in the unlucky case of dying, there's probably res enough to just relerk! THEY ARE THE NUMBER ONE GAME-BREAKER for marines right now. Onoses can be focused and chased with some success, fades die sometimes too - both need time to regain enough res, but lerk doesn't!
suggestion: start by making weld work at half effectiveness during bile. if this doesn't seem to change the balance much, remove the weldblock altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty obvious to everyone that the lerk is really powerful, but the solution isn't necessarily to start tweaking/adding/removing game mechanics.
It's actually just to make it so people can reliably shoot lerks and kill them when they're without a great deal of teammate support. That will come eventually - in the mean time, it's a beta and things are going to be imbalanced. The worst way to develop this game would be to spend months and months tweaking the mechanics in an environment where half the players can't play the game properly, and then do it all again when they get a big boost in performance from optimizing the LUA interpreter and other stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1927498:date=Apr 20 2012, 04:46 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 20 2012, 04:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's pretty obvious to everyone that the lerk is really powerful, but the solution isn't necessarily to start tweaking/adding/removing game mechanics.
It's actually just to make it so people can reliably shoot lerks and kill them when they're without a great deal of teammate support. That will come eventually - in the mean time, it's a beta and things are going to be imbalanced. The worst way to develop this game would be to spend months and months tweaking the mechanics in an environment where half the players can't play the game properly, and then do it all again when they get a big boost in performance from optimizing the LUA interpreter and other stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's true what you are saying. But it doesn't really apply here imo. The change I suggested is really small and easy to implement. (Maybe as simple as changing a factor/variable (e.g. WeldSpeedFactorDuringBilebomb=0) from 0 to 0.5)
Furthermore, UWE CANNOT, like you say, disregard balance/metagame/playability in the buissness model they've chosen. They have to find a balance between having the game SOMEWHAT playable and not wasting current time on things that will change in the future. Because they are, even right now, selling a product, the revenues of which fund their endeavor.
<!--quoteo(post=1927493:date=Apr 19 2012, 09:26 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 19 2012, 09:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes this is a good point of view that will help this game succeed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah well compared to the poor hit registration for a skulk....
love love love being skulk now, had myself a nice 10 kill streak or so (don't actually know how many) with only 1 base.. being able to carpace for free and leaping with one hive is sweeeeeet :D and yes games are much longer now, sometimes annoyingly long though.
I'm all for a nice long kick ass game but when your on a team that has every res node and all bases but still can't take out that one damn base... just gets frustrating >< then again perhaps its just a team issues not communicating haha
<!--quoteo(post=1927041:date=Apr 19 2012, 12:18 AM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Apr 19 2012, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927041"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Murphy, that was the best repro ever. Just wait till InternetsLive gets the "Murphy learns to fly" video up :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't get the good parts :( "like baby nest learning to take flight for the first time") But I did get some spacebar spamming (was that even him? lol)
Thought I was going to play something new, what I got was:
A sense of despair upon joining Marines.
Either: get lucky with quick mines, get lucky with turrets, lose, or hopefully: BRING BACK ELECTRIFY!
The problem is Skulks own up res nodes right? So why not stop that for a cost? Are there any reasons why Electrify hasn't been introduced 40 patches ago? Is it not something the devs want to see make a return? I thought it worked well, lerks and fades can still take out res with planning.
Free upgrades on skulks is hard to combat, but so are zappy zappy resnodes! Maybe 5 res per node? That makes it, what, 100 seconds to recover the cost of 15 Tres per node? Have electrify researchable off armouries, 10 seconds research time, 10 second implement time, that might even allow skulks to do some damage to nodes 2 and 3 befor the electrify goes up?
Another couple of 'maybes' : MACS have a 15 metre heal range instead of 10, most tech points are in big rooms right? Remove Armoury from the tech path of other buildings.... who knows, super quick phase? quick robotics? Armoury first slows down Marines soooo much...
Yesterday evening I had a few games and - apart from the performance issues like 15 fps at mineshaft even while standing still or bilebomb effect also killing my fps - <b>the game is fun</b>, I really enjoy it. It gets better and better every build. Sure there's things to improve and fix, but I really love how the game progresses.
Tiny feedback. Some abilities might probably be better off having their damage actually start with the animation e.g. onos smash. It looks/feels unpolished and wonky otherwise
I must say it doesn't feel like an early gorge is all that necessary, alien structures still build quite fast on their own, i.e when the comm is cyst chaining and I gorge the cysts are usually already built by the time I get to 'boost' their build time. Sure it's nociteable on harvesters and other buildings, but hardly a must or even all that important. I feel my time is better spent on the frontlines as a skulk.
In addition, the gorge heal spray nerf was annoying, I know it's been like that since last patch but if you want the gorge to become a viable class again he really needs to start receiving some love. He doesn't feel like a combat engineer at all, his combat abilities are a joke, he can't even properly keep himself and others alive and none of his buildings really have a lasting impact on the game. Those 50 p.res spent on hydras are better spent on going fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1927419:date=Apr 20 2012, 12:07 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 20 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those tables are excellent in highlighting the issue, a 3 - 5 min fades are just unacceptable imo, as are 5 - 10 min onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen 3 minute GL rush and 5 minute JP. In public play, lots of people are trying out gorge, which drastically reduces map control for aliens. Throw in nano-shield and you start to see what I've been seeing... a handful of clanners transforms a public game of NS into something <b>very different</b>. Arcs are still brutal as well.
Also happens on ground (without leap), but I can reproduce it with leap 90% of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thank god it's not just me... some people were saying they have no problem with hit registration, but that vid kind of proofs it doesn't it?
<!--quoteo(post=1927642:date=Apr 20 2012, 05:13 AM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Apr 20 2012, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thank god it's not just me... some people were saying they have no problem with hit registration, but that vid kind of proofs it doesn't it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combine it with a new mouse and feel the magic.
Also this bug that blocks your rifle (stuck, you need to change weapons) when a skulk goes through you (I can't reproduce it locally, the bots doesn't jump)
If you super slowed it down, i think you'd find you clicked before you got into range but only just. I believe its got to do with how your brain processes and predicts the information due to the skulk mouth closing causing a loss of information. I do this alot myself.
The skulk bite animation is also given to sometimes delay very slightly (from experience) so that when your moving very fast it may seem like you bit them from a replay but you didnt.
Anyway here are the bites in slow mo with a freeze on the exact frame before the animation starts. I think you bit slightly too early given the current skulk bite range. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I must've missed something but I thought augmentation would require you to unlock every alien lifeform ability (bilebomb, blink, etc) manually, that would in fact add more depth and choices to the alien comm. Instead we got a single button at 25 res that unlocks all lifeform abilities? Really hope that's just temporary. It would be MUCH more interesting if you had to unlock every augmentation, since it is essentially a big tech upgrade, not to mention it'd cost more resources and time, which isn't a bad thing given how fast you can get a mature hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1927638:date=Apr 20 2012, 11:02 PM:name=RoTTe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RoTTe @ Apr 20 2012, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you super slowed it down, i think you'd find you clicked before you got into range but only just. I believe its got to do with how your brain processes and predicts the information due to the skulk mouth closing causing a loss of information. I do this alot myself.
The skulk bite animation is also given to sometimes delay very slightly (from experience) so that when your moving very fast it may seem like you bit them from a replay but you didnt.
Anyway here are the bites in slow mo with a freeze on the exact frame before the animation starts. I think you bit slightly too early given the current skulk bite range. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking the same thing after watching the video the first time. It looked like the bits were too soon and your slow motion video also looks that way too.
<!--quoteo(post=1927711:date=Apr 20 2012, 07:26 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 20 2012, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you super slowed it down, i think you'd find you clicked before you got into range but only just. I believe its got to do with how your brain processes and predicts the information due to the skulk mouth closing causing a loss of information. I do this alot myself.
The skulk bite animation is also given to sometimes delay very slightly (from experience) so that when your moving very fast it may seem like you bit them from a replay but you didnt.
Anyway here are the bites in slow mo with a freeze on the exact frame before the animation starts. I think you bit slightly too early given the current skulk bite range. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I'm compensating the old input lag + old camera pos.
I see frame per frame too, I'm bitting too early. Gimme a week :D
<!--quoteo(post=1927629:date=Apr 20 2012, 07:38 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 20 2012, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I must say it doesn't feel like an early gorge is all that necessary, alien structures still build quite fast on their own, i.e when the comm is cyst chaining and I gorge the cysts are usually already built by the time I get to 'boost' their build time. Sure it's nociteable on harvesters and other buildings, but hardly a must or even all that important. I feel my time is better spent on the frontlines as a skulk.
In addition, the gorge heal spray nerf was annoying, I know it's been like that since last patch but if you want the gorge to become a viable class again he really needs to start receiving some love. He doesn't feel like a combat engineer at all, his combat abilities are a joke, he can't even properly keep himself and others alive and none of his buildings really have a lasting impact on the game. Those 50 p.res spent on hydras are better spent on going fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say gorges are pretty useful for spreading cysts again now.
Cysts spread fast enough on their own, though yea sometimes you do need the t.res elsewhere. But still, my biggest grief with this patch is that its now even EASIER to get quick bilebombs and fade blik. Since it's only a 25 t.res upgrade for ALL abilities at about 6 - 8 min into the game. They need to have each alien ability as a seperate tech with a significant cost, else the new 'depth' and 'choices' to the alien khammander are mainly just for show.
<!--quoteo(post=1927740:date=Apr 20 2012, 04:29 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 20 2012, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They need to have each alien ability as a seperate tech with a significant cost, else the new 'depth' and 'choices' to the alien khammander are mainly just for show.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Though that would promote everyone saving for the same lifeform.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though that would promote everyone saving for the same lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is that any different form all marines getting GLs? Not to mention that you'd still have people go fade and onos anyway, since especially the onos for example is still extremely viable (and I would argue broken) without his second tier ability. A team with just fades is also not going to be as effective as a team with mixed lifeforms. Or at least it shouldn't be when they manage to properly balance lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1927744:date=Apr 20 2012, 04:36 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 20 2012, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is that any different form all marines getting GLs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's exactly the same, which I dislike.
Comments
Also, did the Onos knockdown time get reduced or not affect marines w/ jetpacks?
I swear they get up within a second now and jetpackers never seem to go down when I gored them.
yes this is a good point of view that will help this game succeed
lol.
the mobile-ness of the lerk makes it hard to hit/kill (gorge in ns1 was very immobile AND VULNERABLE)
add the weld locking on bilebomb, that even lasts TWICE THE BILEBOMB TIME
and finally, add several lerks herassing a base
NOW DO THE MATH!
lerks are now the top lifeform, they are almost impossible to kill, and in the unlucky case of dying, there's probably res enough to just relerk! THEY ARE THE NUMBER ONE GAME-BREAKER for marines right now. Onoses can be focused and chased with some success, fades die sometimes too - both need time to regain enough res, but lerk doesn't!
suggestion: start by making weld work at half effectiveness during bile.
if this doesn't seem to change the balance much, remove the weldblock altogether.
the mobile-ness of the lerk makes it hard to hit/kill (gorge in ns1 was very immobile AND VULNERABLE)
add the weld locking on bilebomb, that even lasts TWICE THE BILEBOMB TIME
and finally, add several lerks herassing a base
NOW DO THE MATH!
lerks are now the top lifeform, they are almost impossible to kill, and in the unlucky case of dying, there's probably res enough to just relerk! THEY ARE THE NUMBER ONE GAME-BREAKER for marines right now. Onoses can be focused and chased with some success, fades die sometimes too - both need time to regain enough res, but lerk doesn't!
suggestion: start by making weld work at half effectiveness during bile.
if this doesn't seem to change the balance much, remove the weldblock altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty obvious to everyone that the lerk is really powerful, but the solution isn't necessarily to start tweaking/adding/removing game mechanics.
It's actually just to make it so people can reliably shoot lerks and kill them when they're without a great deal of teammate support. That will come eventually - in the mean time, it's a beta and things are going to be imbalanced. The worst way to develop this game would be to spend months and months tweaking the mechanics in an environment where half the players can't play the game properly, and then do it all again when they get a big boost in performance from optimizing the LUA interpreter and other stuff.
It's actually just to make it so people can reliably shoot lerks and kill them when they're without a great deal of teammate support. That will come eventually - in the mean time, it's a beta and things are going to be imbalanced. The worst way to develop this game would be to spend months and months tweaking the mechanics in an environment where half the players can't play the game properly, and then do it all again when they get a big boost in performance from optimizing the LUA interpreter and other stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true what you are saying. But it doesn't really apply here imo.
The change I suggested is really small and easy to implement.
(Maybe as simple as changing a factor/variable (e.g. WeldSpeedFactorDuringBilebomb=0) from 0 to 0.5)
Furthermore, UWE CANNOT, like you say, disregard balance/metagame/playability in the buissness model they've chosen. They have to find a balance between having the game SOMEWHAT playable and not wasting current time on things that will change in the future. Because they are, even right now, selling a product, the revenues of which fund their endeavor.
Yeah well compared to the poor hit registration for a skulk....
I'm all for a nice long kick ass game but when your on a team that has every res node and all bases but still can't take out that one damn base... just gets frustrating >< then again perhaps its just a team issues not communicating haha
I didn't get the good parts :( "like baby nest learning to take flight for the first time") But I did get some spacebar spamming (was that even him? lol)
A sense of despair upon joining Marines.
Either: get lucky with quick mines, get lucky with turrets, lose, or hopefully: BRING BACK ELECTRIFY!
The problem is Skulks own up res nodes right? So why not stop that for a cost? Are there any reasons why Electrify hasn't been introduced 40 patches ago? Is it not something the devs want to see make a return? I thought it worked well, lerks and fades can still take out res with planning.
Free upgrades on skulks is hard to combat, but so are zappy zappy resnodes! Maybe 5 res per node? That makes it, what, 100 seconds to recover the cost of 15 Tres per node? Have electrify researchable off armouries, 10 seconds research time, 10 second implement time, that might even allow skulks to do some damage to nodes 2 and 3 befor the electrify goes up?
Another couple of 'maybes' : MACS have a 15 metre heal range instead of 10, most tech points are in big rooms right? Remove Armoury from the tech path of other buildings.... who knows, super quick phase? quick robotics? Armoury first slows down Marines soooo much...
In addition, the gorge heal spray nerf was annoying, I know it's been like that since last patch but if you want the gorge to become a viable class again he really needs to start receiving some love. He doesn't feel like a combat engineer at all, his combat abilities are a joke, he can't even properly keep himself and others alive and none of his buildings really have a lasting impact on the game. Those 50 p.res spent on hydras are better spent on going fade.
I've seen 3 minute GL rush and 5 minute JP. In public play, lots of people are trying out gorge, which drastically reduces map control for aliens. Throw in nano-shield and you start to see what I've been seeing... a handful of clanners transforms a public game of NS into something <b>very different</b>. Arcs are still brutal as well.
Easy debug (local + cheats):
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qSs02piYvC0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qSs02piYvC0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Also happens on ground (without leap), but I can reproduce it with leap 90% of time.
Easy debug (local + cheats):
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qSs02piYvC0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qSs02piYvC0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Also happens on ground (without leap), but I can reproduce it with leap 90% of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thank god it's not just me... some people were saying they have no problem with hit registration, but that vid kind of proofs it doesn't it?
Combine it with a new mouse and feel the magic.
Also this bug that blocks your rifle (stuck, you need to change weapons) when a skulk goes through you (I can't reproduce it locally, the bots doesn't jump)
If you super slowed it down, i think you'd find you clicked before you got into range but only just. I believe its got to do with how your brain processes and predicts the information due to the skulk mouth closing causing a loss of information. I do this alot myself.
The skulk bite animation is also given to sometimes delay very slightly (from experience) so that when your moving very fast it may seem like you bit them from a replay but you didnt.
Anyway here are the bites in slow mo with a freeze on the exact frame before the animation starts. I think you bit slightly too early given the current skulk bite range.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
The skulk bite animation is also given to sometimes delay very slightly (from experience) so that when your moving very fast it may seem like you bit them from a replay but you didnt.
Anyway here are the bites in slow mo with a freeze on the exact frame before the animation starts. I think you bit slightly too early given the current skulk bite range.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking the same thing after watching the video the first time. It looked like the bits were too soon and your slow motion video also looks that way too.
The skulk bite animation is also given to sometimes delay very slightly (from experience) so that when your moving very fast it may seem like you bit them from a replay but you didnt.
Anyway here are the bites in slow mo with a freeze on the exact frame before the animation starts. I think you bit slightly too early given the current skulk bite range.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3U26CuRV1Xg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I'm compensating the old input lag + old camera pos.
I see frame per frame too, I'm bitting too early. Gimme a week :D
In addition, the gorge heal spray nerf was annoying, I know it's been like that since last patch but if you want the gorge to become a viable class again he really needs to start receiving some love. He doesn't feel like a combat engineer at all, his combat abilities are a joke, he can't even properly keep himself and others alive and none of his buildings really have a lasting impact on the game. Those 50 p.res spent on hydras are better spent on going fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say gorges are pretty useful for spreading cysts again now.
Though that would promote everyone saving for the same lifeform.
How is that any different form all marines getting GLs? Not to mention that you'd still have people go fade and onos anyway, since especially the onos for example is still extremely viable (and I would argue broken) without his second tier ability. A team with just fades is also not going to be as effective as a team with mixed lifeforms. Or at least it shouldn't be when they manage to properly balance lifeforms.
It's exactly the same, which I dislike.