Marine Commanders using Armory as Wall Block
digital
Join Date: 2011-01-30 Member: 79669Members
Join Date: 2011-01-30 Member: 79669Members
<div class="IPBDescription">FML</div>So this happened in a game today. Every single onos (3?) was killed by the marine commander blocking hallways as an onos was escaping from one or two marines. PLEASE FIX THIS. Onos is worthless with a marine commander able to do this.
I'm thinking....
1) only allow marines to build in an area once the power node is up (doesn't really stop this all the time)
2) only allowing buildings to be built within a certain radius of a marine (doesn't really stop this all the time)
3) only allowing buildings to be built when not in a certain radius of an alien (doesn't really stop this all the time)
4) not allowing the same sort of building to be built within a certain area of its kind (doesn't really stop this all the time)
Being that this only affects the onos really:
5) disable buildings being built when an onos is near
Any other suggestions are more than welcome. I don't really like these answers and I'm guessing that's one of the reasons this has never been dealt with, but it really does need to be addressed, whether with one fool-proof (5) solution or multiple smaller patchwork 95% effectiveness solutions (1 - 4) to the point that it really isn't considered viable as a commander "skill"
I'm thinking....
1) only allow marines to build in an area once the power node is up (doesn't really stop this all the time)
2) only allowing buildings to be built within a certain radius of a marine (doesn't really stop this all the time)
3) only allowing buildings to be built when not in a certain radius of an alien (doesn't really stop this all the time)
4) not allowing the same sort of building to be built within a certain area of its kind (doesn't really stop this all the time)
Being that this only affects the onos really:
5) disable buildings being built when an onos is near
Any other suggestions are more than welcome. I don't really like these answers and I'm guessing that's one of the reasons this has never been dealt with, but it really does need to be addressed, whether with one fool-proof (5) solution or multiple smaller patchwork 95% effectiveness solutions (1 - 4) to the point that it really isn't considered viable as a commander "skill"
Comments
It also depends on map layout. A great example is ns2_turtle, where an "armory wall" is actually just one single armory in the doorway. It costs next to no resources and if the first armory is destroyed you can drop 1-2 new ones. By the time the first one is destroyed, you are usually already dead, if the marine team knows what they're doing.
As for ideas on how to solve the issue: The only viable option I can think of is how NS1 did it: spawn structures as ghosts until someone starts building it. This will still allow the blocking if you are smart, making for possibly improved depth of gameplay.
Actually, I do like the ghost idea more now that I think about it. It solves the problem and seems much more believable than a fully-formed building appearing out of thin air, needing to be built despite already looking complete. An additional idea could be to progressively replace the ghost with a building from the floor up, as if the structure is actually being constructed.
That false premise being that the onos has some sort of entitlement to unobstructured hit and run tactics.
You know, it is possible for the onos to be a perfectly viable and effective class without endless hit and run - It just requires teamwork.
The idea of the marine structures is that they are pre-assembled in a different base and deployed into the battlefield. The only role for the marines then is to activate it. Cory explained this a while back, can't seem to find the post though.
That is the question.
(Goes Red)
Wow you've never been an onos have you? This happened to me yesterday (LoL - I Bet it was you Arkanti). There were two onos and a gorge. The first onos (not me) ran in and was blocked by two armouries. I realized this and started taking down one of them. During the 10-15 seconds it would have taken to take this down, the other onos was long gone... [Prepare to laugh at me]... I then ran in and had the same thing happen to me. OK - Yes I was very stupid, and well done marine team / commander, very amusing (Goes Redder).
My point it that <b>A) Oni likely won't realize one has been built until trying to exit at which point is lowish on health and B) if they did attack the armour to try and escape it takes too long and <i>C) yes I am a noob.</i></b>
While I can see this is probably fun for a comm to do, and wouldn't rule it out as a strategy, <u><b>I DO feel that this strategy is way overpowered and easy for a commander with little skill to use</b></u>, while Oni (unlike lerks) are not overpowered and take skill to survive even on hit and run strategies. Oni certainly seem to be going down more often these days than lerks which are much more early game!
Perhaps some structures could be a bit smaller when they are placed so that placing them is a bit more tricky / discerning?
Perhaps make Lerks massive and Oni Little? Wow - what an upgrade to evolve to "Littleness"...
I'm gunna pull you up on that. You know damn well that since the Smash nerf in b202 that's a ridiculous suggestion...
That false premise being that the onos has some sort of entitlement to unobstructured hit and run tactics.
You know, it is possible for the onos to be a perfectly viable and effective class without endless hit and run - It just requires teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Armory block is a legit tactic.
Say "NO!" to removing player freedom to do things like this.
IMO the Onos is a siege tank style class designed to be used as part of attacking tactics late game. They're purpose is not that of lerks and skulks which is to harrass and provide bulk. I have played games which have been extremely frustrating because an Onos has spent all day hitting and running at a time when we had no viable way of dropping it (they had managed to build up to our base and shell with hydras, nightmare!). They had used pretty good tactics but it remains that we simply couldn't drop the damn Onos quick enough, all it had to do was run in, mash two marines and stomp then leg it out.
Armory blocking would solve this, Onos' are there for strategy, not as a solo class. And as such they need to be countered, an Onos used with an organised attack is incredibly powerful as it provides a good distraction and can knock everyone down, I don't really want to see an Onos being used like a skulk to bum around and harrass.
I would image that this would take out an Onos pretty quick even by itself.
Now add in structure blocking and you got a guaranteed dead Onos.
Smash has also been nerfed so though that say "Well you should have just destroyed it" obviously don't play Onos to realize that you don't have enough time to smash an armory with 2-3 Marines unloading into you. And even if you do manage to destroy the armory, Marines can still chase you down long enough to kill you before you can get away.
If the minigun is strong enough when it comes out, I'd have to say the building blocking needs to go.
Yes. However, while we wait, we have armory blocking.
That false premise being that the onos has some sort of entitlement to unobstructured hit and run tactics.
You know, it is possible for the onos to be a perfectly viable and effective class without endless hit and run - It just requires teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. If you're attacking into an area where they can wall you in with armories and kill you, you don't have enough map control to go for a game-ending attack yet. Just because you have an onos doesn't mean you get to hold down your mouse button and win the game while all your teammates are building hydras and chatting about barbies.
<!--quoteo(post=1927849:date=Apr 20 2012, 04:48 PM:name=Egad!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Egad! @ Apr 20 2012, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am all for armory blocking, but it is way to easy to pull off. Killing off a 75 res lifeform should require a great deal of effort, precision, and coordination. Either marine structures should be much weaker when first deployed (killable by one or two smashes) or they should be incorporeal until a marine starts building them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would this ever be able to block onos effectively in practice?
Marines are scattered about around base B. Bobnos goes into the marine base A where no one is around, by himself. Bobnos only has Scottyskulk with him and tries to take out the observatory. Cocorinemander initiates a beacon at base A to take out the onos, using a fair amount of power and diverting his entire team's focus to killing this one onos. Cocorinemander sees Bobnos start to make a break for the exit and has to make the decision of whether or not 30 res is worth it to get a chance to take out Bobnos. As Cocorinemander decides to attempt to block Bobnos in he has to place 3 armories to block him in in the few seconds that will make the difference if Bobnos escapes and makes the entire gambit worthless. Cocorinemander blocks Bobnos in and his marines start to unload on the onos. Bobnos panics and tries to jump his way through the armory wall, but to no avail due to Bobnos not messing up the wall. Eventually Bobnos goes down and the marines are down 24 res (due to recycle) and gave the alien team two extractors (which were being chomped on by Kriskulk and Skulkeo).
So to review:
- Bobnos attempted a risky manuever to attack the marine base with Scottyskulk while the marines weren't presenting a present threat
- Bobnos knew he was alone but didn't acknowledge the idea that the commander might do something drastic as converting the entire team's resources into killing one life form
- Cocorinemander had to decide whether the potential res would be worth it in the span of a few seconds as Bobnos started his retreat upon hearing the beacon
- Using the entire resources of the team, the marines managed to kill one onos while losing 2 RTs
- Overall Profit:
Took out 75 of one aliens pres; Marines
Took out two RTs (20 tres and the potential res lost if marines had otherwise defended the 2 RTs(we'll say about 11)) and a better tactical position
So in this example, the Onos player attempted to adapt the playstyle of the onos (a tank and shocker) to a skirmishing harasser (attacking the marines in small force). Without armory blocking the onos player would have been able to escape more than likely. And even with the killing of the onos player the marines also lost their own resources. Of course the consequences and situations aren't a universal example, but a common sequence of events.
In tandem onos should be able to be punished by marines for trying to play the role of a skirmisher when they are, in fact, a sieger. In the current build the implications of armory blocking do not nullify or counter onos, and there are real counters to armory blocking (that is, cysting entrances) thus armory blocking is a legitimate tactic that has negative implications for marines, is not a guaranteed killer of onos, and adds to the tactical decisions a player must make therefore making armory blocking a positive aspect of gameplay.
Good analysis, I think.
Pay attention to how this guy is judging "whether it's good for the whole game" - it's not simply about whether he likes/dislikes armory blocking when he plays. It's about how it fits into the entire game, options of the players, potential for interaction between the teams and so on.
Pay attention to how this guy is judging "whether it's good for the whole game" - it's not simply about whether he likes/dislikes armory blocking when he plays. It's about how it fits into the entire game, options of the players, potential for interaction between the teams and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too bad UWE sees otherwise. RIP structure blocking