I refuse to see, why it needs a trade off. Because its ugly to play with it all the time isn't an argument for a trade off. It's an argument for changing the appearance of AV.
There is no argument to add a trade off beside: "we have to, because it has to be this way"
A trade off is only needed, when something would make you to powerful. You get a trade off to balance something. For AV there is no need to balance it. You don't get an aimbot when you activate it. It just helps you to not losing focus of that bunny hopping marine every time. Because the aliens should rely on "blending in with the environment" and being ninja, not the marines. The marines have the guns. Their job is to find the alien and than shoot it. The aliens simply need that little benefit for being effective in close combat. Because that is what aliens should be good in: Close combat.
There was a mod, that simply increased the transparency of the AV. In bright places you nearly couldn't tell if AV was on and in dark places, you would see the marines and edges yellow and the rest black, like without AV. <a href='index.php?showtopic=114172'>(Link to the mod thread with screenshots)</a>
So there is a very easy way to fix the issues with AV: <ul><li>Only highlight marines and the edges of the world geometry. (no mines, no buildings, no aliens)</li><li>Increase the transparency like in this mod, but even more. (So you can see the pretty textures exactly like in normal view AND have highlighted marines.)</li><li>Make it auto-active when you spawn. (You can deactivate it, to get rid of the glowing eyes, when you want to ambush.)</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1929198:date=Apr 24 2012, 01:13 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 24 2012, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I refuse to see, why it needs a trade off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because it's more enjoyable to have two vision modes for different circumstances. (Imagine marine flashlights being better for the next part.) As a marine, your flashlight doesn't only make aliens more visible to you, it also makes it clear where you're aiming. It gives the other team an advantage if not uses correctly. Why not have the alien vision give the player using it a slight disadvantage if used incorrectly?
Because adding tradeoffs to alien-vision would entail a mish-mash of now-you-see-it-now-you-don't malarkey unless they add something super-random like adrenaline drain. Pressing the "f" key over and over again isn't exactly fun either and there's something to be said for having a bit of harmony and consistency on the screen. At the very least, I do not want to have toggle alien-vision in the same room to get maximal advantage because that would suck.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it's more enjoyable to have two vision modes for different circumstances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Under normal circumstances I would say: yes, you are right. But for me it's simply not fun to constantly switch between the modes. I need to keep it off to use hive sight, but if I engage a marine I need to activate it, because I constantly lose sight of my bunny hopping target in close combat without AV. Not to mention spores. AV on: can't see when the spores are gone. AV off: can't see through the spores. AV on: can't see flashlights. AV off: can't see a hiding marine in a corner.
This whole mechanic is just not fun for me. And mentioning the fact, that many people just keep it on 99% of the time or didn't use it at all seem to support this opinion.
Oh, and this of course: <!--quoteo(post=1929250:date=Apr 24 2012, 04:12 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Apr 24 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because adding tradeoffs to alien-vision would entail a mish-mash of now-you-see-it-now-you-don't malarkey unless they add something super-random like adrenaline drain. Pressing the "f" key over and over again isn't exactly fun either and there's something to be said for having a bit of harmony and consistency on the screen. At the very least, I do not want to have toggle alien-vision in the same room to get maximal advantage because that would suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can sympathise with that, so what would be best is just create a better looking alien-vision (mild outlines and such), and just have it hard-locked enabled all the time, remove the whole option-bit.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
No no no. Do not force me to play with that crap on all the time, please. I get that a lot of you need it / want it.
But not everyone is you, and not everyone wants to be forced to play a yellow game, or some variation of it. Trade offs are in the game, from high level design to low level design. I understand this isn't enough for some of you, and you rather just see alien vision as something that has zero downside to it, leading to constant use by everyone, so the natural conclusion to leap to is to force it always on.
If you dont get your "No tradeoffs" AV then you'll have to live with pressing the F key from time to time given the situation - just as marines do. If you get your "No tradeoffs" AV, then you can press the damn F key and leave it on for the duration - <b>you don't have to force others to use it too!</b>
Tradeoffs aren't some crazy thing that permeate every inch of gameplay. This is a case of extrapolating basic game-design fundamentals too far. You don't get a tradeoff pressing the forward key, you don't get a tradeoff for wallhopping around the map for extra speed (unless you honestly think that the noise is part of some serious design decision) and you don't get a tradeoff for having a minimap/hud and so on. Tradeoffs come in to play when you're wanting to introduce strategic variety and balanced abilities. It's basically so that you have opportunity costs and, therefore, choices. You need to know when things can be simple or when it should be a deep and meaningful decision [hint: pressing the "f" key is not a deep and meaningful decision].
If you start treating alien-vision likes it's some skill or serious strategy besides on-in-dark/off-in-light than you're going to end up with a silly mechanic that you have toggle on and off repeatedly to optimise it's use. You don't want to be forced to use it? That's fine, keep it optional, but <b>I</b> don't want to be forced to spam-toggle it.
<!--quoteo(post=1929477:date=Apr 25 2012, 12:36 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 25 2012, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No no no. Do not force me to play with that crap on all the time, please. I get that a lot of you need it / want it.
But not everyone is you, and not everyone wants to be forced to play a yellow game, or some variation of it. Trade offs are in the game, from high level design to low level design. I understand this isn't enough for some of you, and you rather just see alien vision as something that has zero downside to it, leading to constant use by everyone, so the natural conclusion to leap to is to force it always on.
If you dont get your "No tradeoffs" AV then you'll have to live with pressing the F key from time to time given the situation - just as marines do. If you get your "No tradeoffs" AV, then you can press the damn F key and leave it on for the duration - <b>you don't have to force others to use it too!</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait what? I said I disliked the yellowness of alien-sight and couldn't stand having to use it for any extended period time, I'd rather have it be a very mild effect that would remain on all the time. As it stands many of the gameplay-elements force you to use it and to switch back and forth continuously for good results, and it gets to be a pain in due time.
Why hard lock it on? Why not *gasp* leave it alone? Because it's not broken. It works like an improvement on the NS1 Alien flashlight and has reasons to both have it on and off. sounds good to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1929496:date=Apr 24 2012, 07:47 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Apr 24 2012, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, this is the main reason I dont use all the time. Only when its dark or in combat<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know to remedy the issue of not seeing people with hive sight when AV is on you can just look at your map? The map is far better than hive sight will ever be.
<!--quoteo(post=1929503:date=Apr 25 2012, 03:10 AM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Apr 25 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know to remedy the issue of not seeing people with hive sight when AV is on you can just look at your map? The map is far better than hive sight will ever be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right yes but that was my main reason. If I was to use AV all the time I wouldn't get too see any of the maps details and would be pretty boring just using it all the time, that is another good reason I dont use it all the time
Why not combine Hive Sight and Alien Vision? Here's an idea (heat vision + echolocation):
- AV functions differently depending if the player has LOS of entities: <ol type='1'><li>When in direct LOS, color-coat entities (players and buildings) from any team, including the player's view model, to provide visual feedback of health/armor (e.g. high to low: <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->orange<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->red<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->)</li><li>When outside of LOS, see Echolocation below.</li><li>Friendly entities flash their current health color when damaged.</li><li>A Parasited Marine is color-coated at all times, even behind walls.</li></ol> - Terrain highlight replaced with <b>Echolocation</b> effect: <ol type='1'><li>Pings out a sound wave periodically and shows <u>outlines</u> of entities behind walls. </li><li>The outlines only show when <b>another alien player</b> or <b>Drifter</b> has the entities in their LOS.</li><li>Outlines are temporary and will fade over a few seconds.</li><li>Friendly entities flash their outlines when damaged.</li></ol> - Whether there should be downsides or not, take a gander: <ol type='1'><li>Lifeform using AV have glowing eyes (already the case I believe)</li><li>Lifeform makes an audible and distinct sound periodically, which is synced with Echolocation ping intervals.</li><li>Both downsides can be negated by either turning off AV, or using Camouflage and Silence evolutions (yay Shade play)</li><li>Echolocation could perhaps blur the borders of the player's screen slightly + color tint, like the Evolve Menu overlay or Blink (to a lesser effect).</li></ol> I believe the internal AV has an experimental entity draw range (see Design Log), which suits this idea well since there's Echolocation and current Hive Sight already has a draw range. As for Pheromones, I think it should be visible to players at all times, since it's the Khamm's method to direct forces to strategic positions. Also, it may help to add an Alien Vision icon to the HUD, with the hotkey under it (to help new players).
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1929483:date=Apr 24 2012, 05:10 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 24 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tradeoffs aren't some crazy thing that permeate every inch of gameplay. This is a case of extrapolating basic game-design fundamentals too far. If you start treating alien-vision likes it's some skill or serious strategy besides on-in-dark/off-in-light than you're going to end up with a silly mechanic that you have toggle on and off repeatedly to optimise it's use. You don't want to be forced to use it? That's fine, keep it optional, but <b>I</b> don't want to be forced to spam-toggle it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>You are extrapolating</i> what i said to mean something more. I did not say it permeates every inch of the game, but i did say that its involved in high level design as well as low level design. From Tres purchase decisions (high level) to you deciding a shotgun instead of lmg (low level). There are plenty of these to be found, such as the "metagame" of when to build and when to stop building (considering the delay it takes to pull out your weapon and the sound everything makes) Does this mean that walking forward has a downside? Potentially, <i>but i'm not making this argument and you wont find me doing so.</i>
My only point was all of those claiming AV shouldn't have a tradeoff aren't considering that the game is not only built around this concept, but that by removing any trade off you have removed a reason for choosing it - so of course the next thought process is "then make it always on" but then you are forcing a different gameplay/visual environment for every single player - even the ones who don't use and don't want AV.
So instead, i propose that you come up with something different - much like Psiwarp has. Personally, i think that the environment/corner outlines should be automatically and <u> subtly </u>highlighted for traversing reasons (melee team) along with enemies<b> only in/scaled with the light </b>in the current room. Further giving purpose to the power grid.
"All equipment, upgrades, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, it would cease to be an interesting decision when choosing them." -Charlie Cleveland
How am I extrapolating what you mean to be something more if the whole point of this debate is that I think you're extrapolating game fundamentals too far? You want to apply it to alien-vision and I think this should fall outside the remit of too much tradeoff discussion. That's the crux of our disagreement, no?
At the end of the day, they're designing alien-vision to be useful. If they make it useful, people will use it. If they give it downsides, people will sometimes use it. If they make it useless, then nobody will use it. My point is to forget tradeoffs and decide from the outset what you want alien-vision to be. Imagine if they had approached the minimap in the same way ("right, we want to give marines a minimap but that's OP so let's make it slow them down when they use it or something").
The problem is that you're trying to make alien-vision super interesting when it's not (it's not equipment or an upgrade... you start with it, you never lose it and you never choose to acquire it). It's an alternative way of viewing the world, not a skill-indexed ability. It should be a highly limited-choice scenario because it's a highly limited action. Not only that, but toggling vision modes is a real pain for the eyes and the adjustment period after swapping is confusing at worst and irritating at best. It should be implicit in the design goal for alien vision that they don't want it to be rapidly changed (you mention the flashlight for marines but this is an example of an ability that doesn't radically alter your perception of the world and can, therefore, work with toggling). One way of doing this is to make it useful enough to have on all the time or, alternatively, you can make it barely useful so that people can opt for standard vision and not pay any price. The irony of adding tradeoffs is that no camp will be able to ignore their disliked mode because everybody will have to use it at some time or another.
I don't know why you are telling me to propose something different. I've already championed a non-yellow, simple outline vision (I don't see a pressing need to make dark rooms lighter). Making it pretty is someone else's job. Nobody here is saying that alien-vision is great as it is, certainly not aesthetically.
Comments
There is no argument to add a trade off beside: "we have to, because it has to be this way"
A trade off is only needed, when something would make you to powerful. You get a trade off to balance something. For AV there is no need to balance it. You don't get an aimbot when you activate it. It just helps you to not losing focus of that bunny hopping marine every time. Because the aliens should rely on "blending in with the environment" and being ninja, not the marines. The marines have the guns. Their job is to find the alien and than shoot it. The aliens simply need that little benefit for being effective in close combat. Because that is what aliens should be good in: Close combat.
There was a mod, that simply increased the transparency of the AV. In bright places you nearly couldn't tell if AV was on and in dark places, you would see the marines and edges yellow and the rest black, like without AV. <a href='index.php?showtopic=114172'>(Link to the mod thread with screenshots)</a>
So there is a very easy way to fix the issues with AV:
<ul><li>Only highlight marines and the edges of the world geometry. (no mines, no buildings, no aliens)</li><li>Increase the transparency like in this mod, but even more. (So you can see the pretty textures exactly like in normal view AND have highlighted marines.)</li><li>Make it auto-active when you spawn. (You can deactivate it, to get rid of the glowing eyes, when you want to ambush.)</li></ul>
Because it's more enjoyable to have two vision modes for different circumstances. (Imagine marine flashlights being better for the next part.) As a marine, your flashlight doesn't only make aliens more visible to you, it also makes it clear where you're aiming. It gives the other team an advantage if not uses correctly. Why not have the alien vision give the player using it a slight disadvantage if used incorrectly?
Under normal circumstances I would say: yes, you are right. But for me it's simply not fun to constantly switch between the modes. I need to keep it off to use hive sight, but if I engage a marine I need to activate it, because I constantly lose sight of my bunny hopping target in close combat without AV. Not to mention spores. AV on: can't see when the spores are gone. AV off: can't see through the spores. AV on: can't see flashlights. AV off: can't see a hiding marine in a corner.
This whole mechanic is just not fun for me. And mentioning the fact, that many people just keep it on 99% of the time or didn't use it at all seem to support this opinion.
Oh, and this of course:
<!--quoteo(post=1929250:date=Apr 24 2012, 04:12 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Apr 24 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because adding tradeoffs to alien-vision would entail a mish-mash of now-you-see-it-now-you-don't malarkey unless they add something super-random like adrenaline drain. Pressing the "f" key over and over again isn't exactly fun either and there's something to be said for having a bit of harmony and consistency on the screen. At the very least, I do not want to have toggle alien-vision in the same room to get maximal advantage because that would suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do not force me to play with that crap on all the time, please.
I get that a lot of you need it / want it.
But not everyone is you, and not everyone wants to be forced to play a yellow game, or some variation of it.
Trade offs are in the game, from high level design to low level design. I understand this isn't enough for some of you, and you rather just see alien vision as something that has zero downside to it, leading to constant use by everyone, so the natural conclusion to leap to is to force it always on.
If you dont get your "No tradeoffs" AV then you'll have to live with pressing the F key from time to time given the situation - just as marines do.
If you get your "No tradeoffs" AV, then you can press the damn F key and leave it on for the duration - <b>you don't have to force others to use it too!</b>
If you start treating alien-vision likes it's some skill or serious strategy besides on-in-dark/off-in-light than you're going to end up with a silly mechanic that you have toggle on and off repeatedly to optimise it's use. You don't want to be forced to use it? That's fine, keep it optional, but <b>I</b> don't want to be forced to spam-toggle it.
Do not force me to play with that crap on all the time, please.
I get that a lot of you need it / want it.
But not everyone is you, and not everyone wants to be forced to play a yellow game, or some variation of it.
Trade offs are in the game, from high level design to low level design. I understand this isn't enough for some of you, and you rather just see alien vision as something that has zero downside to it, leading to constant use by everyone, so the natural conclusion to leap to is to force it always on.
If you dont get your "No tradeoffs" AV then you'll have to live with pressing the F key from time to time given the situation - just as marines do.
If you get your "No tradeoffs" AV, then you can press the damn F key and leave it on for the duration - <b>you don't have to force others to use it too!</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait what? I said I disliked the yellowness of alien-sight and couldn't stand having to use it for any extended period time, I'd rather have it be a very mild effect that would remain on all the time. As it stands many of the gameplay-elements force you to use it and to switch back and forth continuously for good results, and it gets to be a pain in due time.
You can't see parasite/hive sight with alien flashlight on,
that is a huge downside to using it, and using parasite is huge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this is the main reason I dont use all the time. Only when its dark or in combat
You know to remedy the issue of not seeing people with hive sight when AV is on you can just look at your map? The map is far better than hive sight will ever be.
You are right yes but that was my main reason. If I was to use AV all the time I wouldn't get too see any of the maps details and would be pretty boring just using it all the time, that is another good reason I dont use it all the time
- AV functions differently depending if the player has LOS of entities:
<ol type='1'><li>When in direct LOS, color-coat entities (players and buildings) from any team, including the player's view model, to provide visual feedback of health/armor (e.g. high to low: <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->orange<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->red<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->)</li><li>When outside of LOS, see Echolocation below.</li><li>Friendly entities flash their current health color when damaged.</li><li>A Parasited Marine is color-coated at all times, even behind walls.</li></ol>
- Terrain highlight replaced with <b>Echolocation</b> effect:
<ol type='1'><li>Pings out a sound wave periodically and shows <u>outlines</u> of entities behind walls. </li><li>The outlines only show when <b>another alien player</b> or <b>Drifter</b> has the entities in their LOS.</li><li>Outlines are temporary and will fade over a few seconds.</li><li>Friendly entities flash their outlines when damaged.</li></ol>
- Whether there should be downsides or not, take a gander:
<ol type='1'><li>Lifeform using AV have glowing eyes (already the case I believe)</li><li>Lifeform makes an audible and distinct sound periodically, which is synced with Echolocation ping intervals.</li><li>Both downsides can be negated by either turning off AV, or using Camouflage and Silence evolutions (yay Shade play)</li><li>Echolocation could perhaps blur the borders of the player's screen slightly + color tint, like the Evolve Menu overlay or Blink (to a lesser effect).</li></ol>
I believe the internal AV has an experimental entity draw range (see Design Log), which suits this idea well since there's Echolocation and current Hive Sight already has a draw range. As for Pheromones, I think it should be visible to players at all times, since it's the Khamm's method to direct forces to strategic positions. Also, it may help to add an Alien Vision icon to the HUD, with the hotkey under it (to help new players).
If you start treating alien-vision likes it's some skill or serious strategy besides on-in-dark/off-in-light than you're going to end up with a silly mechanic that you have toggle on and off repeatedly to optimise it's use. You don't want to be forced to use it? That's fine, keep it optional, but <b>I</b> don't want to be forced to spam-toggle it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>You are extrapolating</i> what i said to mean something more. I did not say it permeates every inch of the game, but i did say that its involved in high level design as well as low level design. From Tres purchase decisions (high level) to you deciding a shotgun instead of lmg (low level). There are plenty of these to be found, such as the "metagame" of when to build and when to stop building (considering the delay it takes to pull out your weapon and the sound everything makes) Does this mean that walking forward has a downside? Potentially, <i>but i'm not making this argument and you wont find me doing so.</i>
My only point was all of those claiming AV shouldn't have a tradeoff aren't considering that the game is not only built around this concept, but that by removing any trade off you have removed a reason for choosing it - so of course the next thought process is "then make it always on" but then you are forcing a different gameplay/visual environment for every single player - even the ones who don't use and don't want AV.
So instead, i propose that you come up with something different - much like Psiwarp has.
Personally, i think that the environment/corner outlines should be automatically and <u> subtly </u>highlighted for traversing reasons (melee team) along with enemies<b> only in/scaled with the light </b>in the current room. Further giving purpose to the power grid.
"All equipment, upgrades, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, it would cease to be an interesting decision when choosing them." -Charlie Cleveland
At the end of the day, they're designing alien-vision to be useful. If they make it useful, people will use it. If they give it downsides, people will sometimes use it. If they make it useless, then nobody will use it. My point is to forget tradeoffs and decide from the outset what you want alien-vision to be. Imagine if they had approached the minimap in the same way ("right, we want to give marines a minimap but that's OP so let's make it slow them down when they use it or something").
The problem is that you're trying to make alien-vision super interesting when it's not (it's not equipment or an upgrade... you start with it, you never lose it and you never choose to acquire it). It's an alternative way of viewing the world, not a skill-indexed ability. It should be a highly limited-choice scenario because it's a highly limited action. Not only that, but toggling vision modes is a real pain for the eyes and the adjustment period after swapping is confusing at worst and irritating at best. It should be implicit in the design goal for alien vision that they don't want it to be rapidly changed (you mention the flashlight for marines but this is an example of an ability that doesn't radically alter your perception of the world and can, therefore, work with toggling). One way of doing this is to make it useful enough to have on all the time or, alternatively, you can make it barely useful so that people can opt for standard vision and not pay any price. The irony of adding tradeoffs is that no camp will be able to ignore their disliked mode because everybody will have to use it at some time or another.
I don't know why you are telling me to propose something different. I've already championed a non-yellow, simple outline vision (I don't see a pressing need to make dark rooms lighter). Making it pretty is someone else's job. Nobody here is saying that alien-vision is great as it is, certainly not aesthetically.