Late game, comms has nothing to spend res on
oldassgamers
Join Date: 2011-02-02 Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-02-02 Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Prevent arc & turrent spam</div>So about 15 minut in-game there is nothing to spend res on, so if you're a marine commander you'll spend arcs all the time and turrents to defend base.
<b>My solution for marine commander acspective:</b>
<i>- A solution for marine commander part would be having it as NS1 , where the commander had the team res and he spended it on deploying weapons and gear for the player, giving a constantly res flow throughout the entire game.</i>
There's is probably better solutions which you can manage to achieve.
Let's find a solution to this big issue for NS2 in the current beta stage, so it CAN be perfect when the release comes in this summer !!!
Let's all help out the uwe with good ideas
<b>My solution for marine commander acspective:</b>
<i>- A solution for marine commander part would be having it as NS1 , where the commander had the team res and he spended it on deploying weapons and gear for the player, giving a constantly res flow throughout the entire game.</i>
There's is probably better solutions which you can manage to achieve.
Let's find a solution to this big issue for NS2 in the current beta stage, so it CAN be perfect when the release comes in this summer !!!
Let's all help out the uwe with good ideas
Comments
The current freeflowing personal resource system allows the player to obtain a bounty of res while not owning much territory.
Similar to the extractor/harvesters levels in the Alpha, upgrading an individual res tower to unlock p.res flow would allow the commander to customize their economy and make strategic decisions for tech or having the players be able to supply themselves sooner. Base node is upgraded that the start.
Personal resources aren't removed, they still allow a player to save up for a weapon/lifeform he/she has been saving up to get. Depending on the commander the outcome may be similar to current ns2 resources or similar to the resource and weapon management found in ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117718" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117718</a>
Taken from a thread I made previously, I believe it would be a good resource sink while dealing with the overflowing p.res system. Also allowing some personalization in command styles.
For marines, autonomy didn't extend very far save for the disobeying of commands and micro-positioning. It makes sense for UWE to want to allow marines the chance to upgrade themselves from the perspective of the individual's enjoyment of the game. Balancing it is a bit of a nightmare but the reasoning for its introduction is sound enough. I can see a simple model of T.res for commander and P.res for field-players working in this regard because alot of the messiness is down to the comm having P.res - the no late-game t.res sink problem you mention is an issue.
As for aliens, autonomy was never much of a problem in the first place, except that autonomy was instrinsically linked to the team's overall success. Restricting lifeform choices to the Khamm would be a really bad idea because the less proficient players would never get to upgrade their class. Assuming that UWE doesn't actually want a massive lifeform frenzy then I can only see the Khamm's role being diluted back to the gorge. I'm actually really hard-pressed to see how they can curb the presence of lifeforms without seriously threatening the Khamm in general really. I haven't really thought up a very good answer for aliens that doesn't bork one or the other. If the Khamm drops structures, hives and rts then we've already seen 4 of the 6 roles in a standard NS1 competitive tactic (rts-gorge, rt-fade, chambers, hive, lerk, fade) taken care of. If it doesn't drop structures, hives and rts then it's a pretty crappy class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread is probably a better place so i'm relocating.
The problem with T-res and P-res is that they occur in a fixed relation. The commander cannot channel all res into structures and upgrades or scrimp and save for a rush because the two types of resources are not interchangable.
I made a suggestion to recouple team res and personal res via some form of one way convertibility. Allowing the comm to turn team res into personal resources(e.g. 1 T-res converts to 1 P-res per player).
You can do this very simply by having res nodes ONLY gather T-res and giving the commander a button on the commander GUI that converts a small quantity of T-res into P-res(e.g. 5 T-res).
Another way to do it is to have a kind of "wage" system; you'd have a slider you could move that determines how much of incomming resources become T-res or P-res; move it all the way to the right and you get only T-res, move it all the way to the left and you get only P-res. Defaults to center position. This later system may be slightly messier, but it has advantages, the comm can just "set and forget", doesn't have to keep remembering to dole out personal res now and then.
You are still left with the problem of some players accumulating a surfeit of P-res because they manage to stay alive or don't spend very much. For all its other faults, this problem did not exist in the 1-res system.
Or did I misunderstand something?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can do this very simply by having res nodes ONLY gather T-res and giving the commander a button on the commander GUI that converts a small quantity of T-res into P-res(e.g. 5 T-res).
Another way to do it is to have a kind of "wage" system; you'd have a slider you could move that determines how much of incomming resources become T-res or P-res; move it all the way to the right and you get only T-res, move it all the way to the left and you get only P-res. Defaults to center position. This later system may be slightly messier, but it has advantages, the comm can just "set and forget", doesn't have to keep remembering to dole out personal res now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I would suggest as well, though I would just move away from using p.res in total and have the commander invest t.res directly in equipment/lifeforms. For example, he could have a menu with all the possible player equipment/lifeforms on it and the amount currently available, by clicking on one he invest T.res in making one extra unit available. The cost of this would vary based on amount of players in a team (the more players on a team, the less one unit of said lifeform or weapon will cost) He can sink as many T.res as he wants into this, this way there'd also be a trade-off with the actual economy again.
How it could look for example:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MENU
Lerk (15) -- Fade (30) --- Onos (60) (t.res cost)
0 --------------- 2 ---------- 0 - amount available, clicking on the number would increase it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Players would then in their evolve menu only see the option to go fade (until team runs out of fades)
Gorge could be made entirely free, or really cheap. Since they are considering making gorge buildings free, and have removed the cost of lifeform upgrades, this system makes even more sense. (Less need for p.res) Just keeping p.res in for lifeforms and commander cyst abilities is stupid IMO. A one-resource system (t.res for both marines and aliens) would work really well
How is that different from NS 1 marine commander dropping heavy armour and jetpacks, and hmgs, gls, etc? They could potentially end up in the hands of 'nubs'as well. Not to mention that while no doubt a single fade is better spent on a good player, it can often be more benefical to get 1 good and 1 bad fade on the field than to have just 1 fade immediately replaced the moment he dies.
If we followed your line of thought, bad players currently should go commander and 'feed' their resources to the better players on the team, since using it themselves would be a waste of the p.res anyway.
Anyway, I doubt it would really be a big deal in pub games even.
Whether or not it might be useful in some situations to have an extra average fade, there will still be an entrenched heirarchy where the bad players lose out and have less fun. I think that this would be a <i>really</i> big deal in pub games.
I also predict nepotism running riot.
we don't have various upgrades (jetpack upgrades, arc upgrades, etc etc)
and also exosuits are missing.
plenty of more things to be added which will be a TRes sink.
The amount of meds and ammo needed rises in proportion to team size.Cost of packs would have to be less for larger teams if you're going to keep T-res cost contant.
Well, I thought of that, but decided it wasn't relevant enough for this thread.
But since you brought it up:
Neither P-res nor T-res income scales with team size. That is a general problem with the resource model, but no reason against making packs cost T-res. What is needed is some dynamic factor. Like you said, the costs could be based on the player count. My idea was to reintroduce a form of res for kills, where the team gains a small amount of T-res (but no P-res) for every kill. This is based on the assumption that more players = more kills.
and also exosuits are missing.
plenty of more things to be added which will be a TRes sink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not for aliens to be honest, AFAIK they're not planning any significant additions to the alien tech tree. Which basically means the khamm is going to remove terribly boring, even more so lategame. Not to mention that currently you're better off just going onos with your p.res than remaining seated in the comm chair anyway.
Either way, I think many here will at least agree the res model needs simplification, it's overly complicated for what it tries to achieve. (3 resources really? None of them have a lot of depth.)
For aliens, they would get p.res4kill instead. Even a small amount would help stagger lifeforms, differentiate styles of play and maintain the feeling that aliens are more "solo" than marines without actually threatening any teamwork. The khamm and its gardener-role doesn't really rely on abilities that are player-specific so it wouldn't need any extra t.res.
so if the marines suck they get punished by having less help from meds and ammo, making them even WORSE?
If you keep it at is, the p.res for meds and ammo sees diminishing returns with higher player numbers anyway...
They need to earn their keep. If they suck they deserve to lose. I dont see how it could be otherwise? It also doesn't negatively affect them anymore than a system without rfk so no, an rfk system only has positive benefits.
The point still stands that pres/tres med/ammo doesn't scale with player numbers unless you implement an rfk type of system or design the game around multiple commander switches throughout the course of a game. The latter has been officially scrapped so... The same applies to CC's and nanoshield energy not scaling with player numbers.
In regards to the OP - if you start having alot of games which reach lategame levels of abundant res then the problem is a design issue. e.g. 1 hive aliens being too powerful, or 1 RT/base marines being too powerful, or not enough siege breaking ability to name a few (not saying these are actual problems or not in the current build). Making weapons cost tres has no effect other than to severely upturn the balance in early and midgame. It doesn't scale with player numbers and doesn't solve the problem of abundant res other than by design sleight of hand.
Also, a scaling med/ammo system or one that uses tres would only be a bandaid fix in these situations and doesn't address the underlying problems.
That's the best solution I've seen so far. An alternative to t.res4kill is to introduce a slight t.res income scaling with player count: each player "brings" with him the t-res that the comm needs for med/ammo-ing.
This definitely seems like a decent solution at this point. It's simple and relatively well understood through NS1. I'm certainly fine with something more radical too, but I think there's a plenty of things to do even if the comm res model isn't pioneering some unexplored ground.
I think it can still make quite a few things go crazy (think of how much teching you can get away with in NS1 at high playercounts), but the clear and solid basic mechanic seems really attractive at this point. Any flaws are easier to deal with once you're comfortable with the strong basic mechanism.
In a game like NS2 where you have one team which has a suicide class as default life form, you will break balance with tRes for kills.
It's way easier for marines to defend than to attack. If you are defending, the aliens have to come to you and you can shoot them. If you are attacking, the aliens can do, what they do best: ambush you.
So what will happen? As soon as the marines start to turtle, they will gain a steady income of tRes for kills, because the aliens<b> have to </b>try to get into the base, in order to win. And skulks <b>will die</b> in this process. Bringing enough tRes for the marines to even turtle harder.
Your issue is with turtling and that should be addressed, sure but it doesn't really fall under this remit. It should be tackled in other ways like making defending a weaker strategy in general.
Can't you see it? A turteling marine only dies if stupid or has bad luck. The aliens (especially skulk) have to go in and risking to die.
Its obvious that tRes4kill mostly benefits the marines. And will lead to more turteling.
<!--quoteo(post=1929188:date=Apr 24 2012, 01:46 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 24 2012, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your issue is with turtling and that should be addressed, sure but it doesn't really fall under this remit. It should be tackled in other ways like making defending a weaker strategy in general.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not an easy issue. You can't simply push it away. It is an issue right now, because there are many factors that benefit a defensive strategy for marines. Adding tRes4kills will make that even worse.
Tinkering with spawn times and economy speed are definitely ways of making the game work with different numbers. The problem, though, is that these solutions mean that a rule has to fundamentally change depending on the player-count which is something UWE doesn't want and I can see why - it's a good design goal. Things like t.res4kill (more generally, any reward4action) are preferable in this regard because it allows games to develop differently with a rule that stays the same, no matter what.
The idea behind t.res4kill hinges on the fact that a good strategy is to support your marines on the field with medpacks and ammo and potentially even t.res-converted abilities. Sure, you could opt for fast teching up but the target would be to set a level where teching up comes at a substantial cost of losing field-position, early lifeform kills and so on. If meds/ammo/(abilities) were useless in large games then you could be right about it not scaling very well but i'm not convinced that's the case.
In fact, it doesn't even necessarily hinge on comm-support; the scaling might actually come in the form of faster tech <b>anyway</b>. What's to say that this isn't the way to balance the increased number of lifeforms on the opposing team?
The trick is to find the sweet spot that doesn't lead to "insane teching" or "1-2min Onii".
MACS did not exist in NS1, and Marine players had to spend time welding damaged structures. Now, MACs provide much faster repairs for the same T-Res cost, but cheaper player-time cost.
All mobile AI units such as ARC, Whips, and Drifters should have their numbers limited, as they are commonly abused and cause server issues.