eureka!? think I know why aliens are so "imba"

weezl

In NS1 you could only choose one upgrade from each type of chamber!
Now in NS2 you have onos/fade/lerk with BOTH carapace and regen.
There's no tradeoff, you can both take more dmg AND heal up quick.
It's like a super-life-form!

Imagine:
If onos chose cara, he'd have to run back to hive to heal up, or slowly heal by crag/gorge.
If onos chose regen, he'd be much less unstoppable!
Tradeoffs! Design doc!


Also, the first level of upgrades is the full one; in NS1 there were 3 levels of upgrades, meaning gorges had to drop 3 (or more) of the same chamber to max the upgrade.


THIS is why aliens can deny so much ground control, cos they can just retreat slightly, hide, heal up, and then push again! In NS1 you often had to go back to hive for healing.
THIS is also why gorges are so much less needed - they are built in into the aliens already.
It doesn't help that crag tech is the one and only viable sarter for aliens currently...
(THIS is why all games end with marines being pushed back to spawn in mid-game when aliens get 2 hives. Again, second hive is make-or-break.)


Suggestion: GO BACK TO NS1!

Xarius

I really think upgrades have the least to do with it. Sure it may have some effect but it is marginal in comparison to :
- 5 - 10 min onos
- +- 8 min augmented hive (bilebomb and fade blink)
- Majority of alien players being a higher lifeform at the same time (due to no players having to spend res on team stuff, marines really can't deal with 3 - 4 or more fades and onos fielded at the same time)
- Aliens being able to expand quite fast while all players are on offense (Addressed in 205 though they should still consider tweaking)

Zeikko

I feel that the biggest problem is the fact that it is so difficult to for marines to slow down the alien economy. That is because aliens get significantly strong just by gaining pres without much need for gaining tres. Thus they can keep spending all the tres on creating cysts and and rts. This means that even though marines killed 10 harvesters aliens can still get fades out very fast.

Once they get the fades out it's quite easy to gain map control, destroy marine economy and get your own rolling giving you the tres you need for upgrades and augmentation.

peregrinus

The most convincing reasons I've read for alien domination are:

- Gorges not required for building hives and structures...
- ...That means there are more offensive life forms on the alien team at all times
- Alien khammander makes it really easy to get map control, and to replace RTs almost instantly
- Poor FPS and server/hit reg problems hamper marines more than aliens...
- ...So you have a couple of players on the marine team who cant really hit aliens
- With infestation and khammander sight it's very hard for marines to do anything without aliens knowing

Basically 'rines are fighting a team that has more effective players than them, that can control the map more easily, and who can spend all their time and resources on attacking 'rines.

Smasher

<!--quoteo(post=1929200:date=Apr 24 2012, 08:15 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Apr 24 2012, 08:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 you could only choose one upgrade from each type of chamber!
Now in NS2 you have onos/fade/lerk with BOTH carapace and regen.
There's no tradeoff, you can both take more dmg AND heal up quick.
It's like a super-life-form!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There actually is a trade-off, you can only have so many upgrades as the number of hives you've got, and when all upgrades are in (only 3 currently...) you'll have to choose which one(s) you want/need the most.

TL;DR
When all upgrades are in, there will be choices. Not apparent now as there are only 3 upgrades total.

Champlo0

Aliens dominate marines for a couple reasons:

1. Skulks can move around the map much faster than marines.
2. Maps have shortcuts that cater to aliens.
3. Aliens can hold down their primary attack without little worry for running out of energy (no reload)
4. Higher life forms come too fast
5. They can expand while on an all-out offense
6. Marines are easier to hit than a facerolling spacebar skulk with 15 fps
7. Early upgrades that cost nothing
8. Uncounterable life forms (Lerks, fades too when the FPS drops)
9. Infestation gives free map awareness
10. Aliens can naturally regen health whereas marines have to get a health kit or go back to an armory to get armor (aliens can re-evolve into regen and back into carapace)
11. Aliens can use structures to hide from marine fire (this is pretty redundant) while marines are hampered to actually shoot the skulk biting their structure (make structures not climbable by skulks or something)
12. Alien structures build extremely fast; there is little incentive go gorge and actually help the khammander with building

Those are the reasons I see it as of this build. The only real advantage marines have is ranged weapons which are null if their FPS is terrible which, unless you have a 2000 dollar computer you bought yesterday, it probably is going to be.

Freemantle

It's not the upgrades. Aliens progress up the power scale with the passage of time. Time does not help a marine in the same fashion. Consider that a lone skulk without leap can kill a shotgun-weilding jetpacker, but a shotgun-weilding jetpacker can't kill an onos or a lerk in the same fashion. Marines need to spend res to stay competitive, pay-to-play if you will. A skulk is much stronger in the long run, and honestly the best life form for munching extractors, the most important thing you can do short of taking down the command chair. All the while, the skulk starts to bankroll resources just for being in the game.

Techercizer

Yeah, unfortunately NS2 is maybe a little <i>too</i> realistic. Kharaa are all perfectly designed for their roles and can be grown on the cheap from easily obtainable Pres. Marines are slow, clunky things who can only buy their way into so much effectiveness in any given area; they constantly pursue money/Tres but are never quite able to keep up.

Early rushes aside, of course.

Cim

Worst thing in 205 is that the aliens can just swap between Carapace and Regen at will, since it costs nothing. Despite only having one hive, you can swap to Regen within a few seconds to heal up, only to go back to Carapace again and continue attacking.

Having abilities cost nothing removed quite a lot of choice when it comes to how you want to evolve after spawning.

pRiNcEkAhUnA

While the OP ideas could have some relevance on the gameplay. A bigger issue is being able to have 2 hives and an augmented hive under 6 mins. I accomplished this yesterday on mineshaft with hive 2 up under 3 mins and the original Cave hive augmented before the 5:10 mark. Also onos being Available around 10 mins is just plain stupid.

PowerfuryOA

<!--quoteo(post=1929355:date=Apr 24 2012, 01:55 PM:name=Cim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cim @ Apr 24 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Worst thing in 205 is that the aliens can just swap between Carapace and Regen at will, since it costs nothing. Despite only having one hive, you can swap to Regen within a few seconds to heal up, only to go back to Carapace again and continue attacking.

Having abilities cost nothing removed quite a lot of choice when it comes to how you want to evolve after spawning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I have used it as a lerk a few times myself. If I get hurt too bad I will rush to the nearest vent and swap my upgrades and be good to go in 10 seconds.

Upgrades should be locked once evolved.

Twiggeh

<!--quoteo(post=1929363:date=Apr 24 2012, 08:29 PM:name=PowerfuryOA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PowerfuryOA @ Apr 24 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have used it as a lerk a few times myself. If I get hurt too bad I will rush to the nearest vent and swap my upgrades and be good to go in 10 seconds.

Upgrades should be locked once evolved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Aye, and they should cost pres too, aliens evolve way too much anyway.

Unknown_Soldier

It's not necessarily the timing of the higher lifeforms, it's the pure quantity.

Techercizer

<!--quoteo(post=1929371:date=Apr 24 2012, 02:54 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 24 2012, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not necessarily the timing of the higher lifeforms, it's the pure quantity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Delay them <i>long</i> enough and that quantity thing will be fixed one way or another =P

Xarius

Yea, if higher lifeforms (fade, oni) are delayed long enough (either through slower p.res gain or lower starting p.res), by the time they finally do come out some alien players will have already gone gorge/lerk, meaning the likelihood of a full-on onos/fade team becomes smaller. (Since it would be incredibly risky for the team not to have a fast gorge or quick lerk just because everyone is saving for fades and onos which only come out later)

Techercizer

That, and if you delay it long enough the Marine team just techs up and steamrolls Kharaa.

(except not really, because even with weapons and armor 3 skilled skulks can still totally shut down upgraded marines. Moar ARCs!)

Align

Would a "Medium armor" purchasable from the advanced armory be a horrible idea for letting marines keep pace?

Techercizer

<!--quoteo(post=1929396:date=Apr 24 2012, 03:53 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Apr 24 2012, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would a "Medium armor" purchasable from the advanced armory be a horrible idea for letting marines keep pace?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Marines would still slowly plod into the endless alien killing machine, except now their members have new ways to go broke even quicker.

With the amount of time it takes to actually deploy to somewhere across the map (read, Kharaa territory), operate, and return all the way to base in preparation to heal, regroup, and deploy again, a skulk could suicide any of your undefended extractor more than 5 times. That's assuming they don't just die when they hit infested territory, which realistically, they will. Marines are not fundamentally designed to survive for long periods of time without an expensive forward operating base. When's the last time you saw teams medpacking and welding each other in the field? When's the last time it happened without an ambush? It's quicker to just drop an armory and hope they don't all turn into worm food.

Unknown_Soldier

<!--quoteo(post=1929384:date=Apr 24 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 24 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Delay them <i>long</i> enough and that quantity thing will be fixed one way or another =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Problem with that is level 3 weapons absolutely shreds something like an Onos. As an Onos against level 3 weapons a group of 3 marines is potential death; especially if they know how to hit the space bar.

That's why the whole scaling suggestion keeps getting brought up. Onos might be really strong early, but they're big walking pieces of paper later on.

IronHorse

<!--quoteo(post=1929211:date=Apr 24 2012, 04:39 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Apr 24 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The most convincing reasons I've read for alien domination are:

- Gorges not required for building hives and structures...
- ...That means there are more offensive life forms on the alien team at all times
- Alien khammander makes it really easy to get map control, and to replace RTs almost instantly
- Poor FPS and server/hit reg problems hamper marines more than aliens...
- ...So you have a couple of players on the marine team who cant really hit aliens
- With infestation and khammander sight it's very hard for marines to do anything without aliens knowing

Basically 'rines are fighting a team that has more effective players than them, that can control the map more easily, and who can spend all their time and resources on attacking 'rines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

this, plus the counter to alien mobility, phasegates, are meatgrinders in their current state. (see the many threads dedicated to this issue)

xDragon

The reason aliens are OP currently still comes from the poor hit detection, its really that simple. Not being able to reliably kill skulks early game changes how everything plays.

While being able to use upgrade tricks to get regen to heal and cara for fighting may also give them an advantage, thats more of a smaller advantage that you would want to evaluate later.

Wheeee

it still comes down to marines being unable to pressure alien economy.

Flayra

There seem to be many reasons for this and we're addressing them the best we can.

The biggest change that's coming (tomorrow?) is a new alien wave-spawn system which means that if you kill some aliens, they won't be immediately back in the game, screaming at 100 MPH back towards your extractors.

Techercizer

<!--quoteo(post=1929471:date=Apr 24 2012, 07:23 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 24 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There seem to be many reasons for this and we're addressing them the best we can.

The biggest change that's coming (tomorrow?) is a new alien wave-spawn system which means that if you kill some aliens, they won't be immediately back in the game, screaming at 100 MPH back towards your extractors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh please thank god this yes.

Grissi

Just wanted to add, forcing the aliens to use gorges is not the solution to the problems. Using gorges should be rewarding but not something that players have to do.
When the hitreg and performance gets better you will see that marines won't have issue in 5v5 fights, even if aliens have more adv lifeforms (because of the amount of weapons they can get).

Techercizer

<!--quoteo(post=1929475:date=Apr 24 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 24 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wanted to add, forcing the aliens to use gorges is not the solution to the problems. Using gorges should be rewarding but not something that players have to do.
When the hitreg and performance gets better you will see that marines won't have issue in 5v5 fights, even if aliens have more adv lifeforms (because of the amount of weapons they can get).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can second that. Gorges are sort of passively fun right now hanging around where the team is expanding and helping structures on their way. Lumping additional responsibilities onto the Gorge just makes his life more hectic; I can barely get somewhere I'm needed in time to do anything useful as a Gorge right now.

weezl

<!--quoteo(post=1929471:date=Apr 25 2012, 02:23 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 25 2012, 02:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There seem to be many reasons for this and we're addressing them the best we can.

The biggest change that's coming (tomorrow?) is a new alien wave-spawn system which means that if you kill some aliens, they won't be immediately back in the game, screaming at 100 MPH back towards your extractors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it will be like in NS1 combat game mode?
I kinda like the current egg system, but will still be interesting to try this new thing out!


But back to my OP.
What evolutions will there be available in the end?
cara, regen, redemp?
silence, cele? adre?
cloak, sof?, focus?
any new/other ones?

What I want to get at is how viable each upgrade is to get...

Carapace. Makes a big and overall (not situational) difference, it makes you take much more dmg. If you don't count the (more or less) "overhead" of approaching your target, it can increase the "engagement time" by alot more than the increase in effective HP. In other words, more hp means more time in melee range of marine. Plus much more survivability in general. THE most crucial upgrade.

Regeneration. Next to having much health, REGAINING that health is crucial. Less time spent healing means more time attacking - which is the current problem according to me.
Everybody saw what happened when frenzy was in the game (kills heal you) and how insanely powerful and viable it was. It was tested and a very good call was made to remove it.

These two upgrades should not be combinable because together, they make a huge difference compared to the marginal difference each one on it's own does.

As for the others...
Silence, I've heard a skulk approach me 2 times only, throughout all my playing ns2 so far - they are already 99.9% silent (although it's a technical issue).
Camouflage, very limited ability, decreases map mobility greatly and very risky, not effective on higher lifeforms.
Move speed, will be quite useful when it's in I think.
Energy regen, some select cases maybe (gorge, lerk).

Maybe I'm wrong, but as I see it Cara+Regen will still be in a class of it's own when improving aliens.
Please UWE don't make it so one combo is far better than any other!

going OT here...
I also think there should be levels to the upgrades, so kham has to build say 3 cara shells before cara is maxed. This would create a res-sink for aliens, slow down their growth in power, and make it so that losing a cara shell doesn't mean the whole world (assuming kham didn't bother with backups). In NS1 several players had to sacrifice res to go gorge + make 1-2 chamber and drop rt. Now in NS2 players only have to wait until they can afford the desired lifeform. And tech (+ the rest) comes from a SINGLE and SEPARATE respool.
(Was thinking about: aliens only have pres, including kham, gorges and kham can both build everything, kham does tech. but then there might be conflicts about who spends res on what...so no)


Unrelated: build-time on structures is still insignificant, gorge isn't very important at all in this aspect.