The Marin HudMap
Floodinator
[HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
[HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">, makes ambushes to hard!</div>We all know this situation.
You are skulk and hiding in the dark. A lone marine enters the room and kills you.
Or you are hiding on the roof. 2 marines pass by you ( and never turn theyr heads towards you), as suddenly a 3. Marine passes and looks up and shoots you.
And a extreme example. I was marine walking into ref, what I didn't know and see was the Skulk hiding in the dark above the RT at the wall. I walked straight to the other exit and at the point I left ref, I looked on my HudMap and saw a red flash, so I turned back into ref but didn't saw a skulk, so I went down to see if he is in this little tunnel, nope, sohe had to be on the roof. Jup there he was but dead now.
He dierctly asked how I knew? Because the whole situation that I came back, went to down to the tunnel and back up to instakill him was strange.
So I told him about the Marine HudMap and that it shows all Aliens in LoS and a bit more.
I always loved the minimap when I was marines but now after a long time with this Enemy indicator I need to say that I would like to not have it such a strong indicator as marine. I can not really get surprised by a Skulk if he hides in a dark corner, I can just run in the room and I know where the Aliens are, even if they are behind me.
I don't need to be carefull and watch every corner the maps directly shows me where the Skulk is.
I miss the fear I had sometimes in NS1 because I knew somewhere is a Skulk but where???
And as Aliens it's very hard to do ambushes or to sneak around a Marine so he ignores you.
I don't even know it could be done otherwise, because it is also an important gamplaymechanic, f.e. tracking skulk that got booted.
The only thing I could come up with was to remove the LoS flag if you are lower than 2m/s? So you can sneak and hide without getting tracked by LoS of the marine. As soon as you walk normal speed or just hop you are getting detected.
You are skulk and hiding in the dark. A lone marine enters the room and kills you.
Or you are hiding on the roof. 2 marines pass by you ( and never turn theyr heads towards you), as suddenly a 3. Marine passes and looks up and shoots you.
And a extreme example. I was marine walking into ref, what I didn't know and see was the Skulk hiding in the dark above the RT at the wall. I walked straight to the other exit and at the point I left ref, I looked on my HudMap and saw a red flash, so I turned back into ref but didn't saw a skulk, so I went down to see if he is in this little tunnel, nope, sohe had to be on the roof. Jup there he was but dead now.
He dierctly asked how I knew? Because the whole situation that I came back, went to down to the tunnel and back up to instakill him was strange.
So I told him about the Marine HudMap and that it shows all Aliens in LoS and a bit more.
I always loved the minimap when I was marines but now after a long time with this Enemy indicator I need to say that I would like to not have it such a strong indicator as marine. I can not really get surprised by a Skulk if he hides in a dark corner, I can just run in the room and I know where the Aliens are, even if they are behind me.
I don't need to be carefull and watch every corner the maps directly shows me where the Skulk is.
I miss the fear I had sometimes in NS1 because I knew somewhere is a Skulk but where???
And as Aliens it's very hard to do ambushes or to sneak around a Marine so he ignores you.
I don't even know it could be done otherwise, because it is also an important gamplaymechanic, f.e. tracking skulk that got booted.
The only thing I could come up with was to remove the LoS flag if you are lower than 2m/s? So you can sneak and hide without getting tracked by LoS of the marine. As soon as you walk normal speed or just hop you are getting detected.
Comments
I could be wrong, but it seems like the ammount of time contacts linger on minimap has infact increased since like 10 builds ago. Not sure if intentional or oversight.
*edit* oh yea, and another marine minimap issue. Fast moving lerks or skulks appear as two dots following each other instead of just one which is very tricksy.
How about a sound based minimap instead of sight based? If you are within a certain range of a chomping skulk, he shows up on minimap. Footsteps do not qualify, or have to be REALLY close to count.
This would allow ambushes, would give more utility to silence, and would still allow the map system to function.
The sound based idea is cool too!
I could be wrong, but it seems like the ammount of time contacts linger on minimap has infact increased since like 10 builds ago. Not sure if intentional or oversight.
*edit* oh yea, and another marine minimap issue. Fast moving lerks or skulks appear as two dots following each other instead of just one which is very tricksy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Fast moving things isn't a bug as far is I know it is an indicator of spped, like the mouse thing you can activate.
Oh hell yeah I forgot that delay till you dissapear again on Minimap, makes it impossible to flee and hide.
The Minihudmap destroys the whole Silence, ambushes and hiding.
It is deprimating to get behind a lone marine with silence, just for dying by a SG blast because he sees me 20m away already on the Map.
It breaks so many important aspects of the game, that I only use my Big Minimap to play "fair".
Maybe even remove the HudMap again and give more importance in comunication between all players.
The marines have scan and obs to show aliens on the minimap and the aliens will soon only have drifters and parasite to show marines on the minimap.
This is enough. Especially if it is true what everyone says, that the skulk should rely on ambushes. Right now, if you try to ambush it makes you extremely vulnerable. Because if you not move and a marine shoots at you, you are dead before you even notice that someone shoots at you.
Additionally, if you use parasite, you always get visible on the minimap. This is extremely annoying.
So my suggestions: Make aliens only visible on the HUD when<ul><li>scan is used</li><li>they are in range of an obs</li><li>or they attacked something in the last 3 seconds (but not with parasite!)</li></ul>Aliens need the advantage of being sneaky, because they rely on melee attacks.
Beside this, it will add much to the ambiance of marine play.
Not even attacking a structure should give away your exact position and\or class, the structure should just flash red.
Yeah, at first I thought that way too. But this would also lead to confusion (especially for new players) where the action is going on.
Think of a marine team that is fighting in one room and you look on the map after respawning, to see where you have to go and what weapons you need. Or the sneaky lerk that shoots at you from a dark corner. They do enough damage to kill you, before you may have a chance to locate them.
Whats with changing it to exclude buildings?:
<ul><li>or they attacked a player in the last 3 seconds (but not with parasite!)</li></ul>
Think of a marine team that is fighting in one room and you look on the map after respawning, to see where you have to go and what weapons you need.
Whats with changing it to exclude buildings?:
<ul><li>or they attacked a player in the last 3 seconds (but not with parasite!)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about the aliens only show up on the minimap if they've been attacked by something(of course excluding motion tracking and scans). Or a Battlefield like temporary "tag enemy" function, that would also queue the "Enemy Spotted" audio bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1935120:date=May 11 2012, 12:31 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ May 11 2012, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or the sneaky lerk that shoots at you from a dark corner. They do enough damage to kill you, before you may have a chance to locate them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's what the new tracer effect is for.
The problem is that camoflage isn't an attractive enough upgrade ATM.
The problems with ti is that it's to slow in enveloping the subject. And theres no indicator! We never complained about the cloak indicator in NS1 why would it not still appear?
Maybe it's because upgrades are limited to like 1 chamber per ability (carapace shell/regen shell[is it?]). But yeah, I don't even use cloak, as is, and I hate crag evolution I want ###### whip upgrades back. But I still wont use it (unless Ono or 3 hives etc). <b>[b]And not really a fan of the sounds for the skulk walk</b>[/b]<u></u>. It is dis-orienting as a skulk and COMPLETELY irritating. I think I more ectoplasmic noise is more appropriate.
The problem is that camoflage isn't an attractive enough upgrade ATM.
The problems with ti is that it's to slow in enveloping the subject. And theres no indicator! We never complained about the cloak indicator in NS1 why would it not still appear?
Maybe it's because upgrades are limited to like 1 chamber per ability (carapace shell/regen shell[is it?]). But yeah, I don't even use cloak, as is, and I hate crag evolution I want ###### whip upgrades back. But I still wont use it (unless Ono or 3 hives etc). <b>[b]And not really a fan of the sounds for the skulk walk</b>[/b]<u></u>. It is dis-orienting as a skulk and COMPLETELY irritating. I think I more ectoplasmic noise is more appropriate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm. We are not talking about cloak. This topic is about the minimap and aliens showing up on it automatically when a marine only looks in their general direction or when they do damage. Cloak should not be needed to make the skulk an useful ambush-class again.
By the way, could a dev please give a statement on this topic? Why is it needed to show the aliens on the hud? Is it needed? Is it because the commander, needs to see the aliens to get an intuitive game play or is his overview independent from the player hud?
@Arkanti: That suggestion sounds nice too.
I'd just remove the minimap ESP by default and make it a researchable upgrade again.
Through extensive thought (Not really) I have decided that only showing enemies that are attacking should be allowed. Of course if an area is scanned or has an obs it should highlight as well. That's probably the simplest way to do it and makes the most sense.
My other idea was simply to disable the minimap unless the map key is pressed. Less spoonfeeding that way and people who know how to use the map are rewarded. Probably will add to the sense of immersion a bit too (at least when not using the minimap).
If you want to allow for marines to share contact info then force them to use spotting like in the battlefield series.
Make the marines take the time to actually spot the alien...not simply rely on a game mechanic to spot them for them.
This could then cause a blip to show up on peoples minimaps for 5-10 seconds. The current situation means some smarter marines have a weak version of motion tracking before they research for obs.
Aliens are meant to have some advantages...and the marines also a reason to upgrade.
A free form of motion tracking from the start gives marines a distinct advantage.
I was always under the impression that aliens where meant to have the advantage until marines started upgrading.
Marines should be forced to live in fear of aliens hiding in corners until they get the obs and motion tracking.
skulks early on in games should have the upper hand against a marine, this minimap bug means that marines are not living in fear of skulks early on in games.
Hive sight only works when marines are on infestation yet this minimap bug occurs everywhere.
Parasites can easily be removed by the infected marine and is pretty much a waste of time as you simply give your position away.
The marines are not meant to be able to compete with the aliens in all areas at all times...there should be some differences that force different tactics.
Early game should be marines turtling together and staying in a big group for fear of being ambushed, this minimap bug means this is not the case. This gives marines an advantage and makes it hard for a single alien waiting in ambush to take out a marine.
If the aliens are no longer meant to be ambush predators then a lot more needs to change to balance things up...I hope that this is simply an oversight and will be corrected in the next patch.
At the absolute minimum the aliens should only show up on comms map and only if the field of view is reduced to less than 120 degree (left to right) and 45 degrees above and below the marines cross hair.
Do you have some coding insight on this or are you suggesting something that has no possibility in the realm of reality?
No, I'm actually interested in how your going to have attacking enemies show up only and it be at least as 'optimised' as 'line of sight enemies' ...?
Do you have some coding insight on this or are you suggesting something that has no possibility in the realm of reality?
No, I'm actually interested in how your going to have attacking enemies show up only and it be at least as 'optimised' as 'line of sight enemies' ...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you would link it I would have thought to the fire command and sending an event similar to that done with any attack.
So that when a skulk bites, lerk shoots etc is when the mask that hides them from the minimap is removed and they are visible.
I assume that they use the same minimap for both sides just mask whats visible based on a range of variables (ie marine, aliens, on infestation etc).
You could further refine to say that when a hit is registered (ie they bite a marine or structure) they show up on the map.
What was suggested is not that hard to think out when you consider they would likely start with a map that shows everyone all the time and simply hide what they dont want you to see which allows for things like scans and motion tracking.
This approach would be easier than maintaining 3 maps (marine, alien and spectator) and should take less code.
I do caveat all that with saying I am not a coder of games...but do enjoy its logic...not to mention fun applications ;)
Do you have some coding insight on this or are you suggesting something that has no possibility in the realm of reality?
No, I'm actually interested in how your going to have attacking enemies show up only and it be at least as 'optimised' as 'line of sight enemies' ...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I don't get it, but this is already implemented. When an alien attacks a building or a marine, it gets visible on the map. (That means, they inflict damage.) But this is not necessary. Not even the auto-spotting of aliens is necessary.
I will repeat my updated suggestions: Make aliens only visible on the HUD when<ul><li>scan is used,</li><li>they are in range of an obs,</li><li>they attacked a player in the last 3 seconds (but not with parasite!)</li><li>and maybe if they received damage in the last 3 seconds.</li></ul>