Lets slow the game down + Augmentation changes
invTempest
Join Date: 2003-03-02 Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2003-03-02 Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<div class="IPBDescription">5-10 minute games are too short.</div>The game feels more like a team death-match arcade game in the past recent builds than a RTS/FPS hybrid. If I want to play a TDM or mindless FPS shooter there are many of those out there on the market but I find that type of gameplay is not what is intended for NS2, but so far it is what seems to be prevailing with some of the most recent changes.
<b>The factors which lead to short games:</b>
<ul><li>Resource system is in hyper mode with the current values.</li><li>Skulk rushing / marine rushing is too effective which leads to a lot of short uneventful games.</li><li>Tech trees are too limited and offer only 1 or 2 viable paths which leads to very linear games and quick games.</li><li>Upgrades (marines and aliens) cost very little and don't take long to research.</li><li>Augmentation removes the need for map control and expansion.</li><li>No downside to dieing for aliens (unless a higher lifeform, but even then not much of a downside due to resource system).</li><li>Higher lifeforms appear way to early (Symptom of resource system)</li><li>Arcs are very powerful and have too much health still.</li><li>GL rush has no downside since it is a LMG with a GL attachment.</li><li>No resource sinks for aliens other than lifeforms.</li></ul>
<b>What can be done to slow the game down so there is more dynamic and strategic games?</b>
<ul><li>Slow down the resource system by lowering starting pres and cutting pres gain per RT nearly in half. (15 starting pres and .15 pres per RT per 8 seconds)</li><li>Make tech upgrades for both the marines and aliens cost more and take longer to upgrade.</li><li>Slow down augmentation significantly and make it give aliens access to another upgrade from the same chamber (More on this below; See Augmentation changes).</li><li>Arcs need to cost a great deal more than they currently do so marines can't just turtle and spam 30 arcs to win the game.</li><li>Need viable alternatives rather than linear tech paths.</li></ul>
First and foremost, the resource system is the main reason why games are so linear and short. Starting pres and pres per rt is way to high which basically puts the game into hyperactive mode. Both marines and aliens can feasibly sit on 2-3 RT's and still be able to win the game (easier for aliens by far though).
Combine the high starting pres with the very high per RT pres gain and you can see just how much this speeds up the game. Lerks appear 1 minute into the game with fades at the 5 minute mark and even onos as early as 7-8 minutes into the game. This doesn't give the marines much time to expand and create footholds before they get overrun with the inevitable lerk and fade pressure (which is right at the time augmentation can be done) and even skulks with leap and carapace. This makes the marines almost constantly on the edge of a very slippery slope and all it takes is one failed rush or a foothold going down to end the chances for marines.
The above changes are mostly aimed at slowing down the tech upgrades and slowing down the resource system all the while changing features which don't fit into the RTS aspect of NS2 (augmentation) and replace it with an alternative that gives the alien commander viable alternatives and an actual choice to make.
<b>Augmentation:</b>
The current implementation of augment doesn't fit with the RTS aspect that the game is going for. With the addition of augment not only do aliens have very little reason to expand beyond 3-4 RTs they don't have any good reason to get a 2nd hive other than giving lifeforms another upgrade slot. There is very little strategy involved in a purely time based system that augmentation is built upon therefore it doesn't make sense to have this feature be so powerful.
<b>Proposed augmentation changes:</b>
The commander should have to decide which chamber and upgrade is more important at different stages of the game. With only 1 hive you can get only 1 upgrade from a crag (carapace or regen, not both). Once you augment the hive you can drop another shell that gives regen (if you got carapace first) and after the 2nd hive goes up players can get both regen and carapace if the crag hive has been augmented, otherwise you can only choose 1 upgrade from a particular hive without it being augmented even with 2 hives. This makes the commander have to choose what upgrades they want to give and at what time they will be available.
So at 1 hive before the hive is augmented, the commander can only get 1 upgrade from a chamber (regen or carapace in the case of the crag) and after it is augmented the commander can place down another shell that allows them to upgrade regen.
Combine this with slower res flow and you really have to make a decision on what you want to do. Do you go for an early 2nd hive but have no upgrades or do you try to time the augment to be available at the time the 2nd hive comes up or do you only get carapace from the crag and go for a quicker 2nd hive but only have 1 upgrade available per chamber?
Not only does this add strategy to the game but it gives augment an actual place in the tech tree.
Please discuss and add your own opinions.
<b>The factors which lead to short games:</b>
<ul><li>Resource system is in hyper mode with the current values.</li><li>Skulk rushing / marine rushing is too effective which leads to a lot of short uneventful games.</li><li>Tech trees are too limited and offer only 1 or 2 viable paths which leads to very linear games and quick games.</li><li>Upgrades (marines and aliens) cost very little and don't take long to research.</li><li>Augmentation removes the need for map control and expansion.</li><li>No downside to dieing for aliens (unless a higher lifeform, but even then not much of a downside due to resource system).</li><li>Higher lifeforms appear way to early (Symptom of resource system)</li><li>Arcs are very powerful and have too much health still.</li><li>GL rush has no downside since it is a LMG with a GL attachment.</li><li>No resource sinks for aliens other than lifeforms.</li></ul>
<b>What can be done to slow the game down so there is more dynamic and strategic games?</b>
<ul><li>Slow down the resource system by lowering starting pres and cutting pres gain per RT nearly in half. (15 starting pres and .15 pres per RT per 8 seconds)</li><li>Make tech upgrades for both the marines and aliens cost more and take longer to upgrade.</li><li>Slow down augmentation significantly and make it give aliens access to another upgrade from the same chamber (More on this below; See Augmentation changes).</li><li>Arcs need to cost a great deal more than they currently do so marines can't just turtle and spam 30 arcs to win the game.</li><li>Need viable alternatives rather than linear tech paths.</li></ul>
First and foremost, the resource system is the main reason why games are so linear and short. Starting pres and pres per rt is way to high which basically puts the game into hyperactive mode. Both marines and aliens can feasibly sit on 2-3 RT's and still be able to win the game (easier for aliens by far though).
Combine the high starting pres with the very high per RT pres gain and you can see just how much this speeds up the game. Lerks appear 1 minute into the game with fades at the 5 minute mark and even onos as early as 7-8 minutes into the game. This doesn't give the marines much time to expand and create footholds before they get overrun with the inevitable lerk and fade pressure (which is right at the time augmentation can be done) and even skulks with leap and carapace. This makes the marines almost constantly on the edge of a very slippery slope and all it takes is one failed rush or a foothold going down to end the chances for marines.
The above changes are mostly aimed at slowing down the tech upgrades and slowing down the resource system all the while changing features which don't fit into the RTS aspect of NS2 (augmentation) and replace it with an alternative that gives the alien commander viable alternatives and an actual choice to make.
<b>Augmentation:</b>
The current implementation of augment doesn't fit with the RTS aspect that the game is going for. With the addition of augment not only do aliens have very little reason to expand beyond 3-4 RTs they don't have any good reason to get a 2nd hive other than giving lifeforms another upgrade slot. There is very little strategy involved in a purely time based system that augmentation is built upon therefore it doesn't make sense to have this feature be so powerful.
<b>Proposed augmentation changes:</b>
The commander should have to decide which chamber and upgrade is more important at different stages of the game. With only 1 hive you can get only 1 upgrade from a crag (carapace or regen, not both). Once you augment the hive you can drop another shell that gives regen (if you got carapace first) and after the 2nd hive goes up players can get both regen and carapace if the crag hive has been augmented, otherwise you can only choose 1 upgrade from a particular hive without it being augmented even with 2 hives. This makes the commander have to choose what upgrades they want to give and at what time they will be available.
So at 1 hive before the hive is augmented, the commander can only get 1 upgrade from a chamber (regen or carapace in the case of the crag) and after it is augmented the commander can place down another shell that allows them to upgrade regen.
Combine this with slower res flow and you really have to make a decision on what you want to do. Do you go for an early 2nd hive but have no upgrades or do you try to time the augment to be available at the time the 2nd hive comes up or do you only get carapace from the crag and go for a quicker 2nd hive but only have 1 upgrade available per chamber?
Not only does this add strategy to the game but it gives augment an actual place in the tech tree.
Please discuss and add your own opinions.
Comments
Leap, Clog(?), BB, Blink, and Stomp need to be evolvable only at Augmented hives. They should have moderate costs increasing with the power of the ability (BB would actually cost more than blink with today's Lerk). Along with their increasing costs should be an increasing time to evolve the upgrade. This forces the Kham to choose when and where to evolve his upgrades <i>(Do I get Leap at my main hive and BB at my second? Which hive do I think will last longer? Which hive might I need to quickly evolve something at?)</i>, as well as presenting him with a variety of decisions on how to customize his players' higher tier abilities. This means less focus on instant across-the-board lifeform buffs and more specialized decisions that can be countered by soft RPS mechanics.
Additionally, the research time allows Khams with multiple hives to tech up faster, but it also gives the Marines an edge in the fight if they take down a secondary hive, since some lifeform abilities will go offline with no quick/cheap way to pop them back up. This also allows cautious Khams to pack all their upgrades into a single well-fortified hive fortress, though with all the eggs-in-one-basket risks that approach brings with it.
Having a push-button-receive-win switch that Kharaa can throw 6 min into the game on their hive is even more ridiculous than the paltry cost and lack of opportunity-cost related depth that the current implementation carries. I'm not just hating on Augmentation here; I do believe it has a place in NS2, and think that these changes would really open up strategic depth and variety for both teams.
I understand UWE's push to get away from "2nd hive = gg" that the last few patches have done. That being said, the battle over the 2nd hive has always been an integral part of the NS experience. One of the big drawbacks to the aliens' mobility on the field was their relative vulnerability in their bases, as they were forced to hold more than one spread out location. Having the aliens able to tech up so well with a single hive negates that.
Regardless with how this is addressed, the current form of augmentation is rather boring.
Other that than, increasin the early game sounds great, but the late game needs to be speeded up. As somebody said, after 10 minutes the game is usually over, but it drags out for another 40 minutes because turtling is quite effective for both teams.
^because that wouldn't get old fast. ^.^
Fun thing to mess around with in private matches, though.
Also as Tempest said it would be really nice to see aliens have pres sinks too, that would stagger the "mass fade/onos" timings that seem to happen when the alien team all hits the same pres at the same time. Marines generally don't have the exact same pres all the time because they have a lot of pres sinks like mines and welders that are not purely offensive like the aliens, but are still a necessity.
+1
But I agree things could be slowed down a bit, but not too much otherwise even games will be too long.
Also just slowing down the game will not improve the strategic depth.
The linear tech tree isn't mentioned so often but it does make games very predictable. You always see "ok we're 5 minutes into the game so a, b and c will have happened..." and if it hasn't someone is blamed for not being a good comm. The speed at researching things is rewarded - not tactical decision making, or in other words<i> commanding</i>!
But what's the alternative? Are there enough upgrade choices to make a diverse tech tree with unique branches?
And what could be a pres sink for aliens? Spend 10 res to get hive sight? 1 res per bile bomb? 1 res per blink? 1 res per stomp?
Fades and lerks can quickly go everywhere on the map compared to marines... together with infestation nothing can surprise you and marines dont have a chance to do much dmg to alien economy anymore until almost all fades are dead. (and maybe the commander onos that will come out 2-3min later)
Fades and onis are not really lifeforms that you can kill 1 on 1, so you need like 2 marines per fade running together - if there are 4-5 fades on the field your squads dont have a chance to get very far out of the base anymore.
So usually it means even if marines did a great job until then (tho couldnt end the game yet) fades come out and you automatically lose a lot of mapcontrol and a lot of your rts while aliens can have their rts pretty much unattacked(can go all out offensive) throwing lots of res their way. (=> more cyst spam free motion tracking + if the fades or lerks dont fail and die quickly then, there is a very big chance for a great comeback for aliens tho not because they did anything great but because thats how the game works)
PS: if you change something on the frequency of lifeforms ofc marine weapon access needs to be reduced as well.
I.e in regards to augmentation, what you propose still adds very little depth and choices for the alien khamm. IMO the marine tech tree is more or less fine. The lack of choices and depth to the alien tech tree is a real issue. Augmentation imo should be cut into a tech upgrade for every single ability. (I.e the alien comm will need to choose between getting bilebomb, fade blink, etc, he obviously won't be able to get all the second or even third tier abilities right away.)
Also, no doubt infestation 'spotting' marines results in quicker paced games as well, there's less 'ninjaing', aliens just have to look at their minimap and rush to the marine entering alien controlled territory. We should not overlook this fact, and I truly hope it's something they will take out sooner or later, or at least turn into a tech for aliens.
Lastly, the issue of 'too many players being a higher lifeform' is a tricky one to solve, it is inherent to the choice of the resource system (players only have p.res for lifeforms and weapon upgrades) That being said though, delaying higher lifeforms will probably work well enough, as it will make it less likely for a lot of players to be a higher lifeform once they do finally become available (with slower p.res gain and/or starting p.res). The longer it takes for the higher lifeforms to come out, the more likely it will be that by that time some players will have already had to go lerk or gorge to keep aliens into the game. The only alternative to 'delaying' fade/onos like this, that I can think of anyway, is reworking the resource model. Either that or providing both sides (and particularly aliens) with p.res sinks other than lifeforms (gorge buildings come to mind, once the gorge becomes a viable class to play)
The impact of these changes would be huge, in a good way, I'm confident they would solve most of the balance issues currently plaguing NS 2.
Excellent thread, hope the devs take note
<b>Map size and complexity</b>
In my opinion the maps are relatively much smaller than they were in NS1, and far easier to navigate. When I say easier to navigate, I don't mean it in a good or bad way, as if the maps are now more memorable and the layout is easier to learn. I mean that there are fewer choices involved in making your way to any one location on the map.
The size difference is quite easy to show, though can be a little map dependant. For a little test I decided to run from marine start to each alien hive (and vice versa) on ns_nothing in NS1. The average time taken by a marine running directly to a hive room was 42 seconds, while the average for an alien running from the hive to the marine start was 27 seconds. I then repeated the same process on ns2_summit, the average marine time being 26 seconds, and the average alien time being 23 seconds (more on this relation later).
Now I don't know if the two maps I chose somehow biased the numbers, but I think they were both pretty good representations of the "norm" that we came to appreciate, and that we have come to expect. So straight off the bat, travel time between key locations can be said to have decreased by 36% (marines) and 17% (aliens). I think it can be inferred that less travel time equals more fighting which results in quicker resolution, though that may take some proving. Its a theory though.
The map complexity is a bit harder to show as it is a bit more qualitative and a bit more hand wavy. The idea really struck me when I was busy recording the aforementioned times. When I did the times for summit I made a straight beeline to my destination first time round, recorded the time when I got there and repeated for all target destinations, no problem. When I did the times for ns_nothing, I was confronted with options at every turn. So many choices, so many forks in the road. Now don't get me wrong, I know every NS1 map back to front, and probably will for the rest of my life. The difference was that there was scarcely a concept of "the fastest route". There were multiple routes to each destination I had, each offering competitive time. The problem was that, in the past, the choice had been almost entirely determined by map control. I can go this way, the aliens control that room, I can't use this vent, the marines have an outpost where it leads out. When was the last time you had to choose a different route due to map control in NS2? Personally it happens very rarely to me. Either because I can run directly through whatever "outpost" is in my way, or simply because dying is a non issue due to the shortened travel times mentioned previously.
What this reduction in complexity results in is even more conflict arising, and an even speedier resolution. The overall surface area of the maps are massively reduced, resulting in less space for each team to occupy. Furthermore, people don't care about dying. In NS1, it could take ages to get to a specific strategic position. Once you were there, you didn't want to go back to square 1 when you died. This resulted in far more outposts being erected, or far more concerted pushes being made, requiring more planning and more time.
<b>Relative travel speeds</b>
You may have noticed in the previous post, the relation between alien and marine travel times in NS1 and NS2. If you didn't then here are some figures. In my tests when traveling between alien and marine starts, I noticed that in NS1, a marine's travel speed from A to B was 50% slower than that of a skulk's. In NS2 however, the difference is down to 17% slower. Its worth mentioning that I didn't even use bhopping in the alien NS1 test, which would probably have double the speed gain.
This asymmetry was the key to NS1's gameplay. Because of marine's slow speeds, they would target specific locations to control, and focus their efforts there. Aliens would select an expansion point, and put resources into defending it. If these locations overlapped, lengthy battles would result. In NS2, the marines first move is literally to cap the <b>entire map</b>. The aliens endeavour to defend <b>everything</b>. And because everyone travels essentially the same speed, everyone gets everywhere at the same time and fights everything. The number of "unplanned" engagements that occurred in NS1 was very minimal. And by that I mean the number of confrontations that occur in "no man's land". The majority of marine's were spending time maintaining outposts or slowly expanding outward from them, while a few aliens defended positions, and the rest attacked marine locations. Everybody knew what the deal was. In NS2, there is marine spawn, alien spawn, and everything else is no man's land.
TL:DR
Because of map size, layout and comparative travel times between locations, map control no longer exists in the traditional sense. What this results in is isolated, short lived skirmishes making up the bulk of natural-selection game play.
AFAIK move speed for both sides is faster than in NS 1, as a result, maps feel smaller while they are in fact larger.
Objective size means nothing because there are no digital feet or meters. All that matters is how long it takes you to get from one location to another.
It's possible to win as marines by playing aggressively killing the alien rts while retaining your own ones. You also have to be very effective at killing the lerks and fades too. Once you get all the tech as marines you can start pushing to the alien base, if that doesn't work just use all the surplus res on ARCs and you should win the game even if it last like 20 minutes.
Unless you fail at building 2 turrets to your base and the aliens rush with couple of bile bomb lerks that drop your fps to 5 making you unable to shoot them. ;)
But in the end. I agree with most of the problems the OP is pointing out.
your smiley face is so passive aggressive ;)
Heheh. I didn't mean to be aggressive in any way. We failed on preparing to the lerk rush by building couple of turrets even though we knew it was coming again. Our mistake. But it's always good to be outplayed as we learned something. In the next match against 420 we were prepared for the laggy lerk rushes. :)
For reference, I added the p.res table from the other thread, I think it's an important tool in analysing the issue at hand.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/XIDw6l.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(thanks scardy)
IMO in an balanced game (where the amount of extractors is evenly spread) they should aim for the first onos at minimum 15 - 20 minutes. Marines generally have a really hard time dealing with onos before that stage of the game.
Removing the alien commander will also solve the alien commander PRes issue -- because they have little to spend their PRes on (most things are energy & TRes), you see a lot of fade + onos commanders. Because the marine commander is spending PRes on support, the same isn't true for the marine side, which puts them at a major disadvantage. Good alien teams will rotate commanders (let's say someone is fade, they die and go comm, then the comm evolves into fade, replacing the other player).
I agree with others that are speaking to the augmentation concerns. Essentially, you're encouraging the alien team to turtle by unlinking most evolutions from the second hive. If this is the final decision regarding the alien tech tree, augmentation needs to cost much more than 25 TRes, or augmentation should only be allowed to unlock one TierII ability for a specific lifeform, as others have mentioned. There is a lack of trade-offs with regard to alien commander decisions. You click one button and unlock everything for everyone, while the marine commander is actively making choices regarding which tech to deploy. Imagine the marine commander spending 25 TRes to unlock grenade launchers, shotguns, and flamethrowers for everyone -- I find this to be a somewhat fair comparison.
The reason they added it im sure is because they want to become more of a rts. So 2 commanders gives this. I like the 2 comms. it's just hard to balance
Maybe some internal testing required?