Fades.
GORGEous
Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">How to raise the skillcap for the alien killing machine.</div>Intro: Personally, I find the current fade to be frustrating to play against. The combination of shadow step + blink makes fades unkillable unless the fade makes a huge mistake. That doesn't bother me, though. What really irritates me is having a fade blink up and get 2-3 swipes off before I can even fire my second shotgun shot. In previous builds, the shotgun would easily 2 shot a carapace (assumed from now on) fade point blank. The shotgun has been nerfed since then and now takes 3 shots at the minimum. 3 shots is impossible in a 1v1 setting and in 2v1 settings it is still incredibly hard to kill a fade. The fade simply blinks in, hits 1-3 times, and blinks out to regen. You almost never kill a good fade. And that good fade will tear apart 3-4 marine pushes.
I'm not so upset at not being able to kill that good fade. A good fade should almost never die. What really bugs me is when fades blink in, stab you 2-3 times without blinking, and just eats the marine fire. Average fades will still crush good marines simply because fades are tanky enough to eat fire for the 1.5s it takes them to land 3 swipes. How about increasing the swipe fire delay to something like 1.0s or even 1.3s. It is currently 0.65s.
Here's the relevant balance.lua information for the fade primary attack:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kSwipeDamage = 65
kSwipeDamageType = kDamageType.Puncture
kSwipeFireDelay = 0.65
kSwipeEnergyCost = 7<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
This would make the fades much more reliant on hit-blink-hit maneuvers. This drains the fade's energy and puts a clock on his time in combat. The fades wouldn't be able to simply blink in, swipe swipe swipe, and blink out because they would be vulnerable for up to 2 or 3 seconds here where as they are currently vulnerable for only 0.5 to 1.5 seconds. This encourages the fade to time his blinks in an out of combat and make sure he hits his swings. I see a lot of fades in competitive play that simply blink into 1-2 marines and hold down left click as they walk through the marines before the marines can kill the fade off.
This suggestion of increasing the fade swipe refire time would force fades to hit and run instead of hit and tank. It aims to achieve this by slowing dps output while still allowing skilled fades to tear apart marine groups with hit-blink-hit tactics. I think reducing the fade's DPS is in order due to his high health, mobility, and invulnerabilities. I realize that some players may think that fades should win every 1v1, but I disagree with that assertion. A fade should have to earn his 1v1 kills. In the past few builds, fades do not have to earn 1v1 kills. Any semi-decent fade beats a marine, who has 100% accuracy and any weapon, in a 1v1. That's bad for competition.
I'm making this suggestion as an alternative to things such as revamping shadowstep/blink and reducing the fade's health because those alternatives have been suggested many times with little success. Energy costs may have to be tweaked. Fade's secondary attack could be decreased in energy cost to help fades versus buildings.
I'm not so upset at not being able to kill that good fade. A good fade should almost never die. What really bugs me is when fades blink in, stab you 2-3 times without blinking, and just eats the marine fire. Average fades will still crush good marines simply because fades are tanky enough to eat fire for the 1.5s it takes them to land 3 swipes. How about increasing the swipe fire delay to something like 1.0s or even 1.3s. It is currently 0.65s.
Here's the relevant balance.lua information for the fade primary attack:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kSwipeDamage = 65
kSwipeDamageType = kDamageType.Puncture
kSwipeFireDelay = 0.65
kSwipeEnergyCost = 7<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
This would make the fades much more reliant on hit-blink-hit maneuvers. This drains the fade's energy and puts a clock on his time in combat. The fades wouldn't be able to simply blink in, swipe swipe swipe, and blink out because they would be vulnerable for up to 2 or 3 seconds here where as they are currently vulnerable for only 0.5 to 1.5 seconds. This encourages the fade to time his blinks in an out of combat and make sure he hits his swings. I see a lot of fades in competitive play that simply blink into 1-2 marines and hold down left click as they walk through the marines before the marines can kill the fade off.
This suggestion of increasing the fade swipe refire time would force fades to hit and run instead of hit and tank. It aims to achieve this by slowing dps output while still allowing skilled fades to tear apart marine groups with hit-blink-hit tactics. I think reducing the fade's DPS is in order due to his high health, mobility, and invulnerabilities. I realize that some players may think that fades should win every 1v1, but I disagree with that assertion. A fade should have to earn his 1v1 kills. In the past few builds, fades do not have to earn 1v1 kills. Any semi-decent fade beats a marine, who has 100% accuracy and any weapon, in a 1v1. That's bad for competition.
I'm making this suggestion as an alternative to things such as revamping shadowstep/blink and reducing the fade's health because those alternatives have been suggested many times with little success. Energy costs may have to be tweaked. Fade's secondary attack could be decreased in energy cost to help fades versus buildings.
Comments
The problem is the COD mentality has made most players think only about the first person aspect. Fade blinks in, I want to be able to kill him if I'm good enough. Ok, lets say you are good enough and you can kill him. Lets say on an even playing field you can stand up to a fade. What happens when your team has the superior strategy, because tactics can sway the playing field in your favour. That's the point behind a strategy.
Long story short, this isn't COD, and you don't beat fades with speed or aim. You beat them with strategy.
The problem is the COD mentality has made most players think only about the first person aspect. Fade blinks in, I want to be able to kill him if I'm good enough. Ok, lets say you are good enough and you can kill him. Lets say on an even playing field you can stand up to a fade. What happens when your team has the superior strategy, because tactics can sway the playing field in your favour. That's the point behind a strategy.
Long story short, this isn't COD, and you don't beat fades with speed or aim. You beat them with strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade is overly rewarding even to the worst of players ATM.
The problem is the COD mentality has made most players think only about the first person aspect. Fade blinks in, I want to be able to kill him if I'm good enough. Ok, lets say you are good enough and you can kill him. Lets say on an even playing field you can stand up to a fade. What happens when your team has the superior strategy, because tactics can sway the playing field in your favour. That's the point behind a strategy.
Long story short, this isn't COD, and you don't beat fades with speed or aim. You beat them with strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely. Irrelevant.
Jetpacks help against the 'average' Fade, but they buy you only a few extra seconds of life against one of the pr0 ones :(
Bring on the Exosuit \m/
You make a good point. Too often, Marines (including myself) foolishly sprint into alien territory, and expect to survive a Fade attack. A running Marine is just food for Fades (and Skulks).
There exist good tactics and strategies for beating Fades, even if one or two marines initially appear to be food for a Fade.
* Trapping. Plant 3 to 6 mines (depending on carapace upgrade) around a corner where you expect a Fade will turn up, and watch it get blown to pieces right before your eyes.
Hide in a group, and have one marine bait an overconfident Fade into attacking, then pump nanites into it with Shotguns.
* Tactical formations. Do not stand in the middle of hallways, as you are likely to be blocking bullets for the Fade. Instead, stay close to walls as you travel. When engaging Fades, stand still, and duck down if you are not being attacked. That improves your accuracy and keeps your teammates line-of-fire clear.
* Scans. Observatory Scans reveal Fades' location even during Blink. A smart Fade will retreat, because getting shotgunned in the face as you exit Blink isn't fun.
* Commander. A good commander knows how to keep his comrades alive. Nano Shield and Medpacks can sometimes keep a Marines alive to force the Fade to retreat, or even kill a Fade. The commander should drop Medpacks and use Nano Shield preemptively in anticipation of a Fade turning up.
I hope those tips help those who are struggling against Fades.
Ok, maybe fades are imbalanced, but why is the proposed solution always a ground level one? Not once have I seen people rallying for cheaper and faster built armouries to better supply marines at outposts. Never have I seen people asking for cheaper phase tech in order to get more marines to locations plagued by fades. Why? Because these people don't know the game. They want to be the ones to single handedly defeat the enemy. They want to be the one who bhops around and never misses with their shotgun. That's all the game is to them, a COD like showcase of their own individual skills.
These are the people who move on players and life forms, rather than locations. They don't want to clear the hive room, they want to kill the players who are in it. If you put the proper infrastructure down, you will reinforce marines faster than they can be killed by fades. You will take the strategical location your team needs, but you probably won't kill the fade. Unfortunately tactical advantage isn't visible on the scoreboard, which is why this usually isn't satisfactory to most players.
Ok, maybe fades are imbalanced, but why is the proposed solution always a ground level one? Not once have I seen people rallying for cheaper and faster built armouries to better supply marines at outposts. Never have I seen people asking for cheaper phase tech in order to get more marines to locations plagued by fades. Why? Because these people don't know the game. They want to be the ones to single handedly defeat the enemy. They want to be the one who bhops around and never misses with their shotgun. That's all the game is to them, a COD like showcase of their own individual skills.
These are the people who move on players and life forms, rather than locations. They don't want to clear the hive room, they want to kill the players who are in it. If you put the proper infrastructure down, you will reinforce marines faster than they can be killed by fades. You will take the strategical location your team needs, but you probably won't kill the fade. Unfortunately tactical advantage isn't visible on the scoreboard, which is why this usually isn't satisfactory to most players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) I know NS2 pretty well.
B) I think BHOP is stupid.
C) I don't play COD.
If your argument is that fades should be balanced by increasing the speed that marines tech at then I'd have to disagree with that. Marines recently saw a significant decrease in time and cost required tech up and it did nothing to stem their complete loss of map control in midgame.
Secondary armories and phase gates may or may not need some love, but I don't think a buff or cost reduction to these would mitigate fades at all.