<!--quoteo(post=1934442:date=May 8 2012, 05:12 PM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 8 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is very easy for one onos to kill the power to any base now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to put some math here for you people who think it's actually balanced:
Current 207 Starting PRES: 10 Rate of PRES Extract Per Each RT: 0.25 # Of RTs usually held in a balanced game by each team: 4 Since it takes aliens a bit to get to 4 RTs we add two minutes to the overall minimum time with 4 towers it takes for onos Theory Time: 8 Minutes 40 Seconds Probable Time: 10-12 Minutes
Thus the earliest time in a balanced game that will have onos will be about 11 to 13 minutes (factoring in evolving time). Also factoring in one guaranteed onos from the commander not spending any PRES on anything for aliens and assuming that one or two players have been saving up you effectively see a minimum of 1-3 Onos at the previously stated time. What this creates is a ticking of the clock for marines; if marines don't effectively crush the aliens by 12 minutes they can nearly guarantee a loss if the aliens go Onos because 3 onos are nearly impossible to handle if concentrated in one area, and that's even without a Gorge or Crag support (Crag farmer all the way). If all 3 Onos got on the power node it would be GG no matter what because you can't focus down 3 Onos in a time frame of 10 seconds (nano) or 3 seconds (no nano). The problem isn't with handling one Onos, it's the fact that a herd of Onos in nigh unstoppable which leads to a need for stronger power nodes to at least survive long enough to kill one. Bear in mind none of these are even factoring in the rest of the team supporting the Onos.
From what I've seen 3 RTs is more likely, especially when the Marine team is being super aggressive and taking down RTs (very easy right now). The only time you see these super early Onii that people keep throwing around like end of the world stories is when the Marines team is unable or unwilling to put pressure on the Alien economy and lets them freely expand across the map.
It was just an assumption, I'm aware that marines can put more pressure on alien RTs but it was just for sake of the math. I'll recalculate it here:
Theory Time: 13 Minutes 40 Seconds ETA. Adjusted Time: 15 Minutes ETA.
Still a pretty early time if aliens can just HOLD the marines back. My point is that aliens don't have to dominate, they can just hold off until they're ready to Onos.
I completely agree with Onos being able to take out power quickly. If the Onos fails its a ton of res down the drain for no benefit, if it succeeds we have a nice quick end to the match without half the players quitting from boredom.
<!--quoteo(post=1934455:date=May 8 2012, 05:55 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 8 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to put some math here for you people who think it's actually balanced:
Current 207 Starting PRES: 10 Rate of PRES Extract Per Each RT: 0.25 # Of RTs usually held in a balanced game by each team: 4 Since it takes aliens a bit to get to 4 RTs we add two minutes to the overall minimum time with 4 towers it takes for onos Theory Time: 8 Minutes 40 Seconds Probable Time: 10-12 Minutes
Thus the earliest time in a balanced game that will have onos will be about 11 to 13 minutes (factoring in evolving time). Also factoring in one guaranteed onos from the commander not spending any PRES on anything for aliens and assuming that one or two players have been saving up you effectively see a minimum of 1-3 Onos at the previously stated time. What this creates is a ticking of the clock for marines; if marines don't effectively crush the aliens by 12 minutes they can nearly guarantee a loss if the aliens go Onos because 3 onos are nearly impossible to handle if concentrated in one area, and that's even without a Gorge or Crag support (Crag farmer all the way). If all 3 Onos got on the power node it would be GG no matter what because you can't focus down 3 Onos in a time frame of 10 seconds (nano) or 3 seconds (no nano). The problem isn't with handling one Onos, it's the fact that a herd of Onos in nigh unstoppable which leads to a need for stronger power nodes to at least survive long enough to kill one. Bear in mind none of these are even factoring in the rest of the team supporting the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of what you say is true under the right circumstances. A team who holds enough resource towers and survives long enough while having 3 people saving to Onos who can then coordinate a semi surprise attack (lets face it, Onos are strong and all, but 6 marines focus firing them as they run in is going to do some heavy damage, and a flame thrower in there will reduce their damage output) can potentially destroy a power node (high potential). Wouldn't you say that all of that is pretty good alien play? I think that if those things are pulled off, the aliens might just deserve to win?
Just as, if the marine team manages to hold off the aliens while having no upgrades and rushing grenade launchers, and then being able to push the hive room and end the game early, deserves to win. Or maybe an 8-10 minute , level 3 weapon and armour, jetpack rush on the hive, is a pretty textbook progression for marines, who also deserve to win.
I mean, you're putting forth this ideal scenario, in which quite honestly, the aliens deserve to win. The timer thing might be a little undesirable, but I'm still not fully convinced it is a "hard enrage", I think its more of a soft enrage to be honest.
Anyway, the mechanic at hand is the concentration of resources. Onos are slow and struggle to get around the map. If you've ever been an Onos in server when your hive in shipping starts being attacked, you know what I mean. Heavies in NS1 were the same. If you have a heavy train coming towards your hive (potentially 100s of resources in one location) what do you do? Take the train head on, or attack their base and force them to recall? While its true that, if the heavy train gets within range of your hive, you are almost certainly toast, the objective is to prevent them from getting to your hive. In NS2 its imperative that you not allow the alien team to concentrate all their resources in one location like that. Its true that marines currently have no resource dense purchase for marines, but the exo will introduce that, effectively implementing their own soft enrage.
i know you were happy being the champ there (see what i did?) but you got your numbers wrong, buddy.
nano shield duration is 12 seconds starting pres is 25 still for the public build. say you have 100 energy, (not hard, you start with 25) you can easily nanoshield your powernode twice, lasting 24 seconds of half damage. at 8% per hit thats 15 seconds to kill a power node, but at half damage thats 30 seconds, save for the last 6, <b>so figure somewhere around 28 seconds</b> if no macs or interruptions.
can i post a pic now, too? :-P
edit: just untie IPs from powernodes! it makes no sense considering their purpose is to disable turrets /defense from another room safely AND considering when you lose power the comm chair doesnt... yet you need the comm chair for IPs.. <b>so its already intuitive that IPs shouldnt be disabled when the power goes out.</b> This solves the issue of "there are 3 ways to disable marines and only 2 for aliens" issue as well. All IMO, obviously.
<!--quoteo(post=1934463:date=May 8 2012, 08:10 AM:name=ubikjam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ubikjam @ May 8 2012, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I completely agree with Onos being able to take out power quickly. If the Onos fails its a ton of res down the drain for no benefit, if it succeeds we have a nice quick end to the match without half the players quitting from boredom.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess you haven't played a balanced game then all of the sudden 3 Onos kill everything. Do you realize how easy it is to actually take down a power node as onos? And are you aware that beacon is not instant? Hell, an Onos can just hit it like 3 times then run away cause the marine commander essentially HAS to beacon or else it's GG 90% of the time. If I ever see a big push somewhere towards a hive or something an I'm an Onos as alien I won't even bother going to the hive I'll just run the marine base and attack the power node because it's going to force the marines to beacon and when I hear the beacon go up I'll just run to safety. There's no risk in that, the only risk is going into a base of turtling marines (which are going to lose anyways if they're turtling) and even then if you have another Onos, or hell anyone with you you will probably take down the node.
<!--quoteo(post=1934468:date=May 8 2012, 06:15 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 8 2012, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess you haven't played a balanced game then all of the sudden 3 Onos kill everything. Do you realize how easy it is to actually take down a power node as onos? And are you aware that beacon is not instant? Hell, an Onos can just hit it like 3 times then run away cause the marine commander essentially HAS to beacon or else it's GG 90% of the time. If I ever see a big push somewhere towards a hive or something an I'm an Onos as alien I won't even bother going to the hive I'll just run the marine base and attack the power node because it's going to force the marines to beacon and when I hear the beacon go up I'll just run to safety. There's no risk in that, the only risk is going into a base of turtling marines (which are going to lose anyways if they're turtling) and even then if you have another Onos, or hell anyone with you you will probably take down the node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's called playing chicken. Its a race to see who will beat the other first. A cautious comm that isn't completely confident in his push will recall the marines. A cautious Onos that isn't completely confident in his push will run to the hives defence. Then it just comes down to seeing who wins.
<!--quoteo(post=1934467:date=May 8 2012, 08:15 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 8 2012, 08:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i know you were happy being the champ there (see what i did?) but you got your numbers wrong, buddy.
nano shield duration is 12 seconds starting pres is 25 still for the public build. say you have 100 energy, (not hard, you start with 25) you can easily nanoshield your powernode twice, lasting 24 seconds of half damage. at 8% per hit thats 15 seconds to kill a power node, but at half damage thats 30 seconds, save for the last 6, <b>so figure somewhere around 28 seconds</b> if no macs or interruptions.
can i post a pic now, too? :-P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are aware that only validates my argument about early Onos more. Also I'm taking sources from the wiki, if you want to blame me for not updating it because it's not my job feel free. You're also assuming that the commander hasn't scanned anything AND you're also assuming one Onos which you have further invalidated with 25 pres (the reason I thought it was 10 was because this server I was on had 10 starting pres for some reason which I went to check because I couldn't find it in the wiki itself). Considering that the commander is going to BEACON (I'm not sure how the energy source works because there is little documentation) which costs another 50 energy I don't really think you're going to have enough energy to get another nano off, even in your perfect world.
<!--quoteo(post=1934469:date=May 8 2012, 08:18 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 8 2012, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's called playing chicken. Its a race to see who will beat the other first. A cautious comm that isn't completely confident in his push will recall the marines. A cautious Onos that isn't completely confident in his push will run to the hives defence. Then it just comes down to seeing who wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You honestly think it's going to take me longer to kill their power node than marines kill the hive?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1934470:date=May 8 2012, 08:20 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 8 2012, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are aware that only validates my argument about early Onos more. Also I'm taking sources from the wiki, if you want to blame me for not updating it because it's not my job feel free. You're also assuming that the commander hasn't scanned anything AND you're also assuming one Onos which you have further invalidated with 25 pres (the reason I thought it was 10 was because this server I was on had 10 starting pres for some reason which I went to check because I couldn't find it in the wiki itself). Considering that the commander is going to BEACON (I'm not sure how the energy source works because there is little documentation) which costs another 50 energy I don't really think you're going to have enough energy to get another nano off, even in your perfect world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its all in balance.lua for you to see / modify and a wiki by definition means you can update it, here's a link to contribute: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/How_to_Contribute_to_this_Wiki" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/inde...te_to_this_Wiki</a>
My argument had nothing to do with onos coming out early, believe me i'm one of the biggest proponents for lowering pres.
I'm just here to to tell you that your numbers were wrong and that it IS possible for it to take ~ 30 seconds - i see no claim from me regarding averages or stats. p.s. the comm may not need to beacon if he has PGs. Theres a lot situationally going on here in these theoretical talks.. but my prior sentence is my only point.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: just untie IPs from powernodes! it makes no sense considering their purpose is to disable turrets /defense from another room safely AND considering when you lose power the comm chair doesnt... yet you need the comm chair for IPs.. so its already intuitive that IPs shouldnt be disabled when the power goes out. This solves the issue of "there are 3 ways to disable marines and only 2 for aliens" issue as well. All IMO, obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought that someone would keep the wiki up to date but I guess not. Thanks for the info about the numbers, I'll take it to my duty to update it from time to time.
Also, I say the comm will beacon because it is the most likely situation even with a phase gate. You also have to factor in that an Onos can just ignore the node while he goes for the observatory (which might be weaker, I don't recall) so the commander can't beacon at all.
But to concur, yes, you could theoretically shield a node for almost 30 seconds. It doesn't really change the actual problem however.
I think the power node mechanic in general needs revisiting. So far, having it affect only sentries and lightning, as well as influencing the growth rate of alien structures and infestation is the idea I liked the most. (Power nodes outside main base actually get a function, the one inside a marine base is no longer a massive game changer/easy to rush for aliens)
Also have infestation slowly creep into the powernode and break it, if left unattended. This way it becomes more of a 'natural' mechanic as well.
Comments
I reiterate, 30 seconds.
^
Can't figure out how all these Onii are walking into the Marine base an freely getting away with chomping on the power node for 30 seconds.
Current 207 Starting PRES: 10
Rate of PRES Extract Per Each RT: 0.25
# Of RTs usually held in a balanced game by each team: 4
Since it takes aliens a bit to get to 4 RTs we add two minutes to the overall minimum time with 4 towers it takes for onos
Theory Time: 8 Minutes 40 Seconds
Probable Time: 10-12 Minutes
Thus the earliest time in a balanced game that will have onos will be about 11 to 13 minutes (factoring in evolving time). Also factoring in one guaranteed onos from the commander not spending any PRES on anything for aliens and assuming that one or two players have been saving up you effectively see a minimum of 1-3 Onos at the previously stated time. What this creates is a ticking of the clock for marines; if marines don't effectively crush the aliens by 12 minutes they can nearly guarantee a loss if the aliens go Onos because 3 onos are nearly impossible to handle if concentrated in one area, and that's even without a Gorge or Crag support (Crag farmer all the way). If all 3 Onos got on the power node it would be GG no matter what because you can't focus down 3 Onos in a time frame of 10 seconds (nano) or 3 seconds (no nano). The problem isn't with handling one Onos, it's the fact that a herd of Onos in nigh unstoppable which leads to a need for stronger power nodes to at least survive long enough to kill one. Bear in mind none of these are even factoring in the rest of the team supporting the Onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-NS2 Wiki: Nano Shield+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2 Wiki: Nano Shield)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The selected player or building is encased in a nan-shield, reducing incoming damage by 50% for a short time.
<ul><li>Cost: 50 <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/images/thumb/e/ef/Icon_resources_energy_neutral.gif/18px-Icon_resources_energy_neutral.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /></li><li>Duration: 8 Seconds</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://www.memes.at/pics/genius.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
From what I've seen 3 RTs is more likely, especially when the Marine team is being super aggressive and taking down RTs (very easy right now). The only time you see these super early Onii that people keep throwing around like end of the world stories is when the Marines team is unable or unwilling to put pressure on the Alien economy and lets them freely expand across the map.
Theory Time: 13 Minutes 40 Seconds ETA.
Adjusted Time: 15 Minutes ETA.
Still a pretty early time if aliens can just HOLD the marines back. My point is that aliens don't have to dominate, they can just hold off until they're ready to Onos.
Current 207 Starting PRES: 10
Rate of PRES Extract Per Each RT: 0.25
# Of RTs usually held in a balanced game by each team: 4
Since it takes aliens a bit to get to 4 RTs we add two minutes to the overall minimum time with 4 towers it takes for onos
Theory Time: 8 Minutes 40 Seconds
Probable Time: 10-12 Minutes
Thus the earliest time in a balanced game that will have onos will be about 11 to 13 minutes (factoring in evolving time). Also factoring in one guaranteed onos from the commander not spending any PRES on anything for aliens and assuming that one or two players have been saving up you effectively see a minimum of 1-3 Onos at the previously stated time. What this creates is a ticking of the clock for marines; if marines don't effectively crush the aliens by 12 minutes they can nearly guarantee a loss if the aliens go Onos because 3 onos are nearly impossible to handle if concentrated in one area, and that's even without a Gorge or Crag support (Crag farmer all the way). If all 3 Onos got on the power node it would be GG no matter what because you can't focus down 3 Onos in a time frame of 10 seconds (nano) or 3 seconds (no nano). The problem isn't with handling one Onos, it's the fact that a herd of Onos in nigh unstoppable which leads to a need for stronger power nodes to at least survive long enough to kill one. Bear in mind none of these are even factoring in the rest of the team supporting the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of what you say is true under the right circumstances. A team who holds enough resource towers and survives long enough while having 3 people saving to Onos who can then coordinate a semi surprise attack (lets face it, Onos are strong and all, but 6 marines focus firing them as they run in is going to do some heavy damage, and a flame thrower in there will reduce their damage output) can potentially destroy a power node (high potential). Wouldn't you say that all of that is pretty good alien play? I think that if those things are pulled off, the aliens might just deserve to win?
Just as, if the marine team manages to hold off the aliens while having no upgrades and rushing grenade launchers, and then being able to push the hive room and end the game early, deserves to win. Or maybe an 8-10 minute , level 3 weapon and armour, jetpack rush on the hive, is a pretty textbook progression for marines, who also deserve to win.
I mean, you're putting forth this ideal scenario, in which quite honestly, the aliens deserve to win. The timer thing might be a little undesirable, but I'm still not fully convinced it is a "hard enrage", I think its more of a soft enrage to be honest.
Anyway, the mechanic at hand is the concentration of resources. Onos are slow and struggle to get around the map. If you've ever been an Onos in server when your hive in shipping starts being attacked, you know what I mean. Heavies in NS1 were the same. If you have a heavy train coming towards your hive (potentially 100s of resources in one location) what do you do? Take the train head on, or attack their base and force them to recall? While its true that, if the heavy train gets within range of your hive, you are almost certainly toast, the objective is to prevent them from getting to your hive. In NS2 its imperative that you not allow the alien team to concentrate all their resources in one location like that. Its true that marines currently have no resource dense purchase for marines, but the exo will introduce that, effectively implementing their own soft enrage.
i know you were happy being the champ there (see what i did?) but you got your numbers wrong, buddy.
nano shield duration is 12 seconds
starting pres is 25 still for the public build.
say you have 100 energy, (not hard, you start with 25) you can easily nanoshield your powernode twice, lasting 24 seconds of half damage.
at 8% per hit thats 15 seconds to kill a power node, but at half damage thats 30 seconds, save for the last 6, <b>so figure somewhere around 28 seconds</b> if no macs or interruptions.
can i post a pic now, too? :-P
edit: just untie IPs from powernodes! it makes no sense considering their purpose is to disable turrets /defense from another room safely AND considering when you lose power the comm chair doesnt... yet you need the comm chair for IPs.. <b>so its already intuitive that IPs shouldnt be disabled when the power goes out.</b> This solves the issue of "there are 3 ways to disable marines and only 2 for aliens" issue as well. All IMO, obviously.
I guess you haven't played a balanced game then all of the sudden 3 Onos kill everything. Do you realize how easy it is to actually take down a power node as onos? And are you aware that beacon is not instant? Hell, an Onos can just hit it like 3 times then run away cause the marine commander essentially HAS to beacon or else it's GG 90% of the time. If I ever see a big push somewhere towards a hive or something an I'm an Onos as alien I won't even bother going to the hive I'll just run the marine base and attack the power node because it's going to force the marines to beacon and when I hear the beacon go up I'll just run to safety. There's no risk in that, the only risk is going into a base of turtling marines (which are going to lose anyways if they're turtling) and even then if you have another Onos, or hell anyone with you you will probably take down the node.
That's called playing chicken. Its a race to see who will beat the other first. A cautious comm that isn't completely confident in his push will recall the marines. A cautious Onos that isn't completely confident in his push will run to the hives defence. Then it just comes down to seeing who wins.
nano shield duration is 12 seconds
starting pres is 25 still for the public build.
say you have 100 energy, (not hard, you start with 25) you can easily nanoshield your powernode twice, lasting 24 seconds of half damage.
at 8% per hit thats 15 seconds to kill a power node, but at half damage thats 30 seconds, save for the last 6, <b>so figure somewhere around 28 seconds</b> if no macs or interruptions.
can i post a pic now, too? :-P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are aware that only validates my argument about early Onos more. Also I'm taking sources from the wiki, if you want to blame me for not updating it because it's not my job feel free. You're also assuming that the commander hasn't scanned anything AND you're also assuming one Onos which you have further invalidated with 25 pres (the reason I thought it was 10 was because this server I was on had 10 starting pres for some reason which I went to check because I couldn't find it in the wiki itself). Considering that the commander is going to BEACON (I'm not sure how the energy source works because there is little documentation) which costs another 50 energy I don't really think you're going to have enough energy to get another nano off, even in your perfect world.
You honestly think it's going to take me longer to kill their power node than marines kill the hive?
its all in balance.lua for you to see / modify
and a wiki by definition means you can update it, here's a link to contribute:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/How_to_Contribute_to_this_Wiki" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/inde...te_to_this_Wiki</a>
My argument had nothing to do with onos coming out early, believe me i'm one of the biggest proponents for lowering pres.
I'm just here to to tell you that your numbers were wrong and that it IS possible for it to take ~ 30 seconds - i see no claim from me regarding averages or stats.
p.s. the comm may not need to beacon if he has PGs. Theres a lot situationally going on here in these theoretical talks.. but my prior sentence is my only point.
Do like
Also, I say the comm will beacon because it is the most likely situation even with a phase gate. You also have to factor in that an Onos can just ignore the node while he goes for the observatory (which might be weaker, I don't recall) so the commander can't beacon at all.
But to concur, yes, you could theoretically shield a node for almost 30 seconds. It doesn't really change the actual problem however.
ONOS KILLS ENTIRE BASES with ONE STRUCTURE KILL.
That is bad.
Also have infestation slowly creep into the powernode and break it, if left unattended. This way it becomes more of a 'natural' mechanic as well.