RTS/FPS & Tres/Pres/energy in NS2
culprit
Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">something I've been thinking about</div>EDIT - Moving TLDR version here for new readers:
Tactical abilities for FPS players with cool-downs:
(can be bought with Pres if energy is available and does not consume any energy, normal usage by Comm consumes energy as currently implemented)
medpack drop, ammo drop, umbra (shorter cool-downs for FPS players)
scan, nano-shield, nano-construct, cloak (longer cool-downs for FPS players)
Comm Only energy based abilities:
beacon, nutrient mist, ink, mac and arc abilities, whip and drifter abilities, others not yet implemented
(only can be purchased with energy by the comm/khamm)
EDIT - back to the original post:
First off, there should be no reason to cycle comms/khamms unless the players want a change of class or playstyle. This means comm players should only be able to spend Pres like a FPS player (buying equipment or lifeforms for themselves or others).
Tres was created to keep the RTS economy from being distorted by different #’s of players. Pres scales with the player count because it is limited to FPS influence on overall gameplay.
RTS - comm/khamm using Tres and energy for RTS gameplay
FPS - players using Pres for personal items and FPS gameplay
Energy hasn’t quite found such a defined role in NS2. It is divided into different structures and used for their abilities. The dev FAQ mentions a purpose of energy is for creating tension and drama due to limiting usage and creating trade-offs. Energy does achieve this to a good degree, but it doesn’t scale well with player count since all structures are purchased with Tres. Some energy abilities are player-focused or tactical while others are comm-focused or strategic.
Progress tracker quote: “Ammo/health packs cost energy from armory (then lower starting pres) - Deliveredâ€
Currently, tactical energy abilities do not scale with player count. The area-effect abilities (umbra, scan, cloak, ink) can sometimes scale with player count if the players are grouped well. The single target abilities don’t scale at all (meds, ammo, nano-shield, nano-construct).
The fix for this issue is to give players the ability to buy tactical energy abilities with Pres. None of the comm’s energy would be used, but the required energy would have to be available for the Pres purchase to be made, encouraging comms to manage energy carefully.
(Energy values may need to be tweaked to fit with Pres-purchased tactical energy abilities being used by FPS players as well as comms. There would certainly need to be cool-downs on Pres-purchased energy abilities. Some energy abilities would have to be restricted only to comms: beacon, nutrient mist, Crag babblers, etc.)
Some examples:
A marine in the field watches as a skulk go cloaked and uses Pres to buy a scan at his location. A gorge buys Umbra from a Crag while healing a hive during a shotgun rush. A skulk buys a cloak from a Shade after seeing a group of marines coming. A lone marine buys meds/ammo and nano-shield to survive long enough to kill a harvester. A marine buys nano-construct while setting up a forward outpost.
So what exactly does this accomplish?
This gives players a Pres sink that is a good trade-off or complement to equipment/lifeforms and makes them less reliant on the comm for tactical abilities. It gives players a way to personally use some structure abilities while allowing comms the option to focus more on the strategic use of energy and Tres and overall strategy. Coordination between players and comms now has even more possibilities.
Any feedback is welcome.
Edit: clarify tactical vs strategic energy uses (tactical is player focused, strategic is only available to comm).
Tactical abilities for FPS players with cool-downs:
(can be bought with Pres if energy is available and does not consume any energy, normal usage by Comm consumes energy as currently implemented)
medpack drop, ammo drop, umbra (shorter cool-downs for FPS players)
scan, nano-shield, nano-construct, cloak (longer cool-downs for FPS players)
Comm Only energy based abilities:
beacon, nutrient mist, ink, mac and arc abilities, whip and drifter abilities, others not yet implemented
(only can be purchased with energy by the comm/khamm)
EDIT - back to the original post:
First off, there should be no reason to cycle comms/khamms unless the players want a change of class or playstyle. This means comm players should only be able to spend Pres like a FPS player (buying equipment or lifeforms for themselves or others).
Tres was created to keep the RTS economy from being distorted by different #’s of players. Pres scales with the player count because it is limited to FPS influence on overall gameplay.
RTS - comm/khamm using Tres and energy for RTS gameplay
FPS - players using Pres for personal items and FPS gameplay
Energy hasn’t quite found such a defined role in NS2. It is divided into different structures and used for their abilities. The dev FAQ mentions a purpose of energy is for creating tension and drama due to limiting usage and creating trade-offs. Energy does achieve this to a good degree, but it doesn’t scale well with player count since all structures are purchased with Tres. Some energy abilities are player-focused or tactical while others are comm-focused or strategic.
Progress tracker quote: “Ammo/health packs cost energy from armory (then lower starting pres) - Deliveredâ€
Currently, tactical energy abilities do not scale with player count. The area-effect abilities (umbra, scan, cloak, ink) can sometimes scale with player count if the players are grouped well. The single target abilities don’t scale at all (meds, ammo, nano-shield, nano-construct).
The fix for this issue is to give players the ability to buy tactical energy abilities with Pres. None of the comm’s energy would be used, but the required energy would have to be available for the Pres purchase to be made, encouraging comms to manage energy carefully.
(Energy values may need to be tweaked to fit with Pres-purchased tactical energy abilities being used by FPS players as well as comms. There would certainly need to be cool-downs on Pres-purchased energy abilities. Some energy abilities would have to be restricted only to comms: beacon, nutrient mist, Crag babblers, etc.)
Some examples:
A marine in the field watches as a skulk go cloaked and uses Pres to buy a scan at his location. A gorge buys Umbra from a Crag while healing a hive during a shotgun rush. A skulk buys a cloak from a Shade after seeing a group of marines coming. A lone marine buys meds/ammo and nano-shield to survive long enough to kill a harvester. A marine buys nano-construct while setting up a forward outpost.
So what exactly does this accomplish?
This gives players a Pres sink that is a good trade-off or complement to equipment/lifeforms and makes them less reliant on the comm for tactical abilities. It gives players a way to personally use some structure abilities while allowing comms the option to focus more on the strategic use of energy and Tres and overall strategy. Coordination between players and comms now has even more possibilities.
Any feedback is welcome.
Edit: clarify tactical vs strategic energy uses (tactical is player focused, strategic is only available to comm).
Comments
Not quite sure I understand how this follows.
The idea of translating personal or team resources into energy is a strange one I think. They are hard to equate, and maybe shouldn't be equated. The "tension" the energy based abilities are meant to create is meant to be universal. A team should always have to worry about energy, regardless of whether they hold every res tower on the map or none. Furthermore, even I, as a fairly knowledgeable and team oriented player, would struggle to see the benefit in spending my res on energy. Its contribution is too abstract and unseen for a player to be expected to care about it outside of competitive games.
In terms of energy gain, I would like to see power packs used to somehow increase rate of energy gain. At the moment they are a pretty cool idea with quite a bit of development having gone into the placement and connection, yet they are only used once in every ten games, and in very obscure locations. They can be beneficial when placed in areas that have vulnerable power nodes, but at the moment they don't provide enough incentive to place pre-emptively.
None of the comm's current abilities would be removed or restricted. This would just give FPS players the option to use Pres for tactical structure abilities without the comm's intervention being required.
I could see it being used much more often in large player count public games. Competitive matches would likely see very little use of this because the Comm's are more experienced with higher APM, and competitive FPS players wouldn't want to spend Pres if it isn't completely necessary. Competitive games are usually 7-8 players per team so this energy scaling isn't really needed as much either. By giving FPS players this option, it allows these tactical and player-focused abilities to scale properly in larger player count games while diminishing the requirement for a high APM comm. It allows newb comms the ability to learn in a public game without their inexperience or low APM completely debilitating their team. It frees the comm player to focus more on the strategic and macro side of the game while still having all the micro and APM options available as well.
Energy management is still only available to the comm. If a structure is low on energy, a FPS player won't be able to use Pres to buy the tactical ability.
TLDR version:
Tactical abilities for FPS players with cool-downs:
(can be bought with Pres if energy is available and does not consume any energy, normal usage by Comm consumes energy as currently implemented)
medpack drop, ammo drop, umbra (shorter cool-downs for FPS players)
scan, nano-shield, nano-construct, cloak (longer cool-downs for FPS players)
Comm Only energy based abilities:
beacon, nutrient mist, ink, mac and arc abilities, whip and drifter abilities, others not yet implemented
I have a few concerns about the system that you are proposing, but I do agree that it would improve many facets of the game. Some issues that I feel are in the game now:
<ul><li>The Marine commander receives a supply of PRes to spend on health and ammo for a dynamic number of other players. Health and ammo do not scale with player count.</li><li>It is possible to switch Marine commanders to use another player's PRes to drop more medpacks/ammo, which creates a good reason for players to swap the commander role.</li><li>The Alien commander has no such sink, and ends up as the first Onos every single game, despite being needed as the commander.</li></ul>
I feel that all the above are problems that arise from giving commanders PRes at all. I really feel that only players on the field shooting/biting things should be receiving PRes, and that the commanders should be restricted to using TRes and energy while in the chair/hive.
With that said, your idea of giving players the ability to buy pings and such would fix the issue of commander abilities scaling with player count, but it would detract from what the commanders have to do. Actually, it would detract from what the Marine commander has to do, and homogenize the roles of alien and marine commander somewhat. With that said, I think you are identifying a very real problem that stems from commander PRes and energy in NS2, but are sacrificing a lot of commander/player interaction with your proposed solution.
My proposed idea would certainly need some testing and tweaking to work properly. I have to disagree about player/commander interaction being negatively affected by the change however.
I do not think that players will want to spend Pres without good reason when a commander could provide the same capability to them at no cost. If your comm is really competent and has high APM skills, then you can save your Pres for a gun/lifeform or other purchase. In really large public games, this becomes much more difficult for the comm to handle. The comm may become overwhelmed with trying to support 3 different squads simultaneously, not to mention the added energy drain that comes with the higher player count. Since Tres does not scale with team size, buying more structures to have more energy is not really a viable option.
Giving the FPS players the option to spend Pres tactically does not take anything away from the comm. It allows for more play-styles and coordination. Because buying an energy ability with Pres does not decrease a structure's energy supply, a comm may find it viable to order players to spend Pres on an ability instead of using energy to activate it.
Example: Marines have established a weak foot-hold outside a hive room with a PG. Cloaked aliens start taking down the marines guarding the phase gate. The comm obviously wants to scan the area to uncloak aliens, but this would drain available Obs energy that will be needed for a beacon before a rush on the hive via the PG. The comm tells a marine guarding the PG to buy a scan. This keeps the energy level on the Obs up so the comm can beacon. After the beacon, marines pour through the PG to rush the hive. More marines spend Pres to buy scans. Due to the long cool-down on the Pres scan, a different marine has to spend Pres to keep the scans going. While the marine rush is bringing down the Shade hive, a group of skulks attack the main base PN. Because the comm and the players managed the Obs energy using Pres scans, there is enough energy for another beacon left to counter attack the skulk rush. Now the Obs is out of energy. Pres scan is no longer available because there is no energy available in the Obs.
Giving the FPS players more options to support themselves and also their team's energy economy using Pres increases comm/player interaction.