<!--quoteo(post=1934285:date=May 7 2012, 09:24 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to disagree with that whether or not I am a PHD in game design. It's obvious that all the extremely tactical and skillbased elements of NS1 have been stripped away in hopes of making the game more playable for the sheepish ADHD gamer population.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you see yet why you don't have that PHD in gameological theory?
I don't have one either, but it's still important to follow the principles of reasoning when you construct an argument, or principles of design when..designing.
They didn't create the Spark engine by getting mad at things and typing the first thing that comes into their mind on a forum.
<!--quoteo(post=1934285:date=May 7 2012, 09:24 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just explained how those tradeoffs are non-existent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you didn't. You tried to divert the discussion away from the undeniable facts I brought up by talking about your own ideas ("powerpacks", "running circles around armories" etc) which overcomplicate what I was saying and make it more difficult to reason about it (in the hope that you'll get the last word and feel like a big man). You'll notice I'm not replying to your list because I'm no longer interested.
<!--quoteo(post=1934285:date=May 7 2012, 09:24 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have to claim to be competitive either IE. If you were competitive at all you'd already know where I stand in this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but I don't scrim this game because it's a total waste of time right now, so I don't know that. If it's somehow useful, you could always explain it to me..
Last I checked you run a pub with no sentry limit, and you challenged me to a grudge match in a game you have no experience with and lost horribly. That sounds like 0 for 2 to me, boss.
<!--quoteo(post=1934286:date=May 7 2012, 08:26 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 7 2012, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you see yet why don't have that PHD in gameological theory?
I don't either, but it's still important to follow the principles of reasoning when you construct an argument, or principles of design when..designing.
They didn't create the Spark engine by getting mad at things and typing the first thing that comes into their mind on a forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are so judgemental. I have played NS1 for YEARS and NS2 for over a year now. This isn't the first time it's popped into my mind. There are 100 other things I have thought about but I tend to only bring up the most essential ones. Armories healing armor is one of them. Through extensive playing of NS1 and NS2 I have found it to be broken. It was that I logged into the game one day and saw something I didn't like. I actually LIKED the healing of armor from armories at first because it made the game EASIER for me. After really comparing it between NS1 I have found that the reason it was changed was to spoonfeed noob players. End of story ;)
You also aren't interested anymore because your argument is exhausted and has been proven wrong. If you really knew you were right you would try to prove it by explaining what about my ideas will break the game. You have still failed to explain what removing armor repair from armories is going to do to the game. All I see is one thing... more teamwork. Sorry, but your opinion is wrong.
Also our "grudge match" wasn't about who was better at quakelive. It was about how the AR behaves like the lightning gun from quake, and how you thought I had ###### aim because I wanted bullet spread on the AR... for aesthetics and fun.
And we can all look at our quake live stats to see whose accuracy is superior.
Okay, so you can continue convincing yourself that what you say makes sense in your echo chamber while Charlie and Max design this game because they're game designers. What was the point of this?
<!--quoteo(post=1934287:date=May 7 2012, 09:29 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also our "grudge match" wasn't about who was better at quakelive. It was about how the AR behaves like the lightning gun from quake, and how you thought I had ###### aim because I wanted bullet spread on the AR... for aesthetics and fun.
And we can all look at our quake live stats to see whose accuracy is superior.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright let's all do that. <a href="http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/yeastiality/" target="_blank">http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/yeastiality/</a> <a href="http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/luc1d" target="_blank">http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/luc1d</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLk9foLfbnk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLk9foLfbnk</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgr8WnFPyw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgr8WnFPyw</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1934290:date=May 7 2012, 08:32 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 7 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, so you can continue convincing yourself that what you say makes sense in your echo chamber while Charlie and Max design this game because they're game designers. What was the point of this?
Alright let's all do that. <a href="http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/yeastiality/" target="_blank">http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/yeastiality/</a> <a href="http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/luc1d" target="_blank">http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/luc1d</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLk9foLfbnk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLk9foLfbnk</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgr8WnFPyw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgr8WnFPyw</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE, you can thank Internet Explorer for making your forums such a lovely place for discussion.
<!--quoteo(post=1934299:date=May 7 2012, 08:43 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 7 2012, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->omg he started it T_T
but seriously, you got called out :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
on? this person's main goal is to hijack any thread i make and to post vehemently against me in hopes of my discussion topics becoming closed. I am trying to have a real discussion about REAL things in this game... and this is what it is brought to. I started nothing.
I've been arguing against your ideas in this thread because I disagree with them. When it became about namecalling and stuff I was prepared and you weren't. That's all, really.
YOUR HONOUR, WE FIND THE DEFENDANT HOPELESSLY OBSESSED WITH GETTING +1'D ON A FORUM
If you played NS1, you would know welders to be an invaluable part to any marine team. Those 5 free seconds you get between attacks? Weld your teammate, drop it, and have him weld you.
BTW, when are we going to be able to drop welders?
<!--quoteo(post=1934303:date=May 7 2012, 09:50 PM:name=TremanN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TremanN @ May 7 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BTW, when are we going to be able to drop welders?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1934302:date=May 7 2012, 08:49 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 7 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been arguing against your ideas in this thread because I disagree with them. When it became about namecalling and stuff I was prepared and you weren't. That's all, really.
YOUR HONOUR, WE FIND THE DEFENDANT HOPELESSLY OBSESSED WITH GETTING +1'D ON A FORUM<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't it obvious to everyone that IE has some sort of problem with me as a person? He clearly has some sort of inferiority complex to go through all this trouble to try to make me look bad. It is far beyond simply disagreeing with me on my ideas. It is a personal attack to me every time you post on these forums. I for one am about to close my account and let you win. No point for me to post in a forum where 1 person constantly is monitoring me and waiting to pounce an attack with me. This guy started googling my name and searching for personal information about me to spread on the forums... that's a +1 for a disussion forum right UWE? Keep letting people like this ruin your forums. We'll see how strong your community lasts... NS1 all over again.
I have contributed many useful forum posts... I have taught many people the game. I have hosted servers and created teams for this game. I constantly am giving to this community... yet every time I post something on the forums this guy is there to attack ME PERSONALLY. This has to stop. Is there any moderator someone can direct me to to try to solve this problem?
<!--quoteo(post=1934309:date=May 8 2012, 03:56 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 8 2012, 03:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't it obvious to everyone that IE has some sort of problem with me as a person?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ordinarily, it would appear so. However, since he does this with nearly everyone, I don't think that is the case.
I didn't have to "google for you" to find your quake live account that you played against me with. In a match you challenged me to. Where you lost horribly and made a fool of yourself.
Please don't allow yourself to get bullied so hard over some words on the internet. I just don't agree with your idea about the armory, and wish you would discuss it instead of calling people things they aren't.
Anyway if I get banned because of a guy who calls everyone a spoon-fed casual and can't construct anything resembling an argument, it's a pretty good indication of how cool this game's community is. Can't wait to see what happens next!
<!--quoteo(post=1934311:date=May 7 2012, 08:59 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 7 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ordinarily, it would appear so. However, since he does this with nearly everyone, I don't think that is the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm personally tired of it and something needs to be done about forum users like this. It's starting to turn into a teenage girls restroom here on the forums. I know UWE is already putting thing in place to stop this kind of posts I hope they hurry with it. Already talked about it with some people in UWE.
You and I both know what I meant when I said you were googling my name in real life. Don't try to hide it. I already sent the post to a couple moderators.
We all see through your BS IE. You try to rally people against me for my harmless, yet blunt opinions and attack me on a personal level. We all see you doing it to people all the time. I'm not the only one tired of it. I've seen you posting even more vehement content on alternate forum names too.
I'm beginning to think you make these topics just to derail them. If you want to argue why not do it in PMs. I can say for near a fact that neither of you have experience or degrees in game design. Playing video games doesn't make you qualified to be a game designer just like being an actor doesn't make you a qualified script writer. Neither of you have proven any "right" argument to say because there is no right, and even if there was it wouldn't matter because right and truth are irrelevant to you.
To rebuke your actual points, NS2 is in development. It is not complete like NS1 is nor is every feature currently in the game in its final stages, or even guaranteed to be in the final build.
Also, it costs 10 tres to build an armory. Look at what an armory does:
-Researches (main armory) -Dispenses ammo -Dispenses health -Dispenses armor
Now let's look at the arguable equivalent for aliens, the Gorge (I'm not counting crag because it require a hefty investment):
-Can heal spray aliens back to full health, with armor -Since aliens don't need weapons or ammo the rest is null
Asymmetrically the two thus function the same or near that. Now let's look at the welder, which functions similar but is distinct from a Gorge:
-Costs 5 pres for marines -Costs 10 tres to research, and another 10 for the armory itself -Requires marines to be vulnerable -Requires other marine to be still or moving at same speed and in predictable fashion -Only heals armor
Now what you're arguing for is this from what I've read:
-Armories only research and dispense weapons -Commanders must drop all ammo or med kits -Armor can only be restored by welders
And now the supposed reason you want this is because the current implementation of the prior points is not tactical (though what you really want to say is pub/noob friendly). I disagree. I disagree because to build an armory requires the investment of 10 tres, usually a phase gate, and marines to defend it. That requires strategic placement because you don't just plop armories down as you please, 10 tres is a lot of res to move around especially in a game where you might hold only 4 RTs at most (balanced game/teams). The investment in an armory is an investment so the commander doesn't HAVE to drop medkits and ammo, and so all the marines don't have to have a welder. What's TACTICAL about this is there is a decision to commit to an area rather than every marine, knowing as soon as he spawns, he's going to grab a welder and that the comm is just going to give med kits out of his pres source and his attention. The reason armories are tactical is because they lead to differentiated decisions and require a commitment of marines to actually be effective. Some other points I would raise is that since med kits come out of comm's pres that means you might just see marines kill themselves because they're low on health if the comm doesn't have a lot of pres. Armories, as an emergent effect from their design, are also a prime target for the alien team (skulks). Armories also do not heal buildings or players on the move which is an advantage of welders.
<!--quoteo(post=1934316:date=May 7 2012, 09:03 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 7 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm beginning to think you make these topics just to derail them. If you want to argue why not do it in PMs. I can say for near a fact that neither of you have experience or degrees in game design. Playing video games doesn't make you qualified to be a game designer just like being an actor doesn't make you a qualified script writer. Neither of you have proven any "right" argument to say because there is no right, and even if there was it wouldn't matter because right and truth are irrelevant to you.
To rebuke your actual points, NS2 is in development. It is not complete like NS1 is nor is every feature currently in the game in its final stages, or even guaranteed to be in the final build.
Also, it costs 10 tres to build an armory. Look at what an armory does:
-Researches (main armory) -Dispenses ammo -Dispenses health -Dispenses armor
Now let's look at the arguable equivalent for aliens, the Gorge (I'm not counting crag because it require a hefty investment):
-Can heal spray aliens back to full health, with armor -Since aliens don't need weapons or ammo the rest is null
Asymmetrically the two thus function the same or near that. Now let's look at the welder, which functions similar but is distinct from a Gorge:
-Costs 5 pres for marines -Costs 10 tres to research, and another 10 for the armory itself -Requires marines to be vulnerable -Requires other marine to be still or moving at same speed and in predictable fashion -Only heals armor
Now what you're arguing for is this from what I've read:
-Armories only research and dispense weapons -Commanders must drop all ammo or med kits -Armor can only be restored by welders
And now the supposed reason you want this is because the current implementation of the prior points is not tactical (though what you really want to say is pub/noob friendly). I disagree. I disagree because to build an armory requires the investment of 10 tres, usually a phase gate, and marines to defend it. That requires strategic placement because you don't just plop armories down as you please, 10 tres is a lot of res to move around especially in a game where you might hold only 4 RTs at most (balanced game/teams). The investment in an armory is an investment so the commander doesn't HAVE to drop medkits and ammo, and so all the marines don't have to have a welder. What's TACTICAL about this is there is a decision to commit to an area rather than every marine, knowing as soon as he spawns, he's going to grab a welder and that the comm is just going to give med kits out of his pres source and his attention. The reason armories are tactical is because they lead to differentiated decisions and require a commitment of marines to actually be effective. Some other points I would raise is that since med kits come out of comm's pres that means you might just see marines kill themselves because they're low on health if the comm doesn't have a lot of pres. Armories, as an emergent effect from their design, are also a prime target for the alien team (skulks). Armories also do not heal buildings or players on the move which is an advantage of welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what I was saying either. My argument is that armories should simply not be able to heal armor until upgraded to advanced armory... to promote players using welders and more teamwork on the field. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
<!--quoteo(post=1934317:date=May 7 2012, 10:07 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not what I was saying either. My argument is that armories should simply not be able to heal armor until upgraded to advanced armory... to promote players using welders and more teamwork on the field. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1934317:date=May 7 2012, 06:07 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 06:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not what I was saying either. My argument is that armories should simply not be able to heal armor until upgraded to advanced armory... to promote players using welders and more teamwork on the field. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would argue that is viable, however aliens can drop crags for 10 tres which will regenerate their armor and health, or a gorge can heal them, thus making the alien asymmetrical equivalent superior to the marine one. You could possibly balance that out by only allowing mature crags to regenerate alien armor, or for alien armor to be fixated to their own regen, or something of that sort, but you would obviously have to propose that mutually with your advanced armory armor idea.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Remember when your mum spoon-fed you because you couldn't control your own movements? She showed you how it is done till you were able to do so. You should follow her example and weld people ingame. They will realize how it works.
All personal arguing aside, what i've gotten out of this thread is that i agree welders need to be more effective at repairing armor, and perhaps the repair rate from the armory needs to be reduced ( 1/2 rate of health?). NS2 is much faster paced than NS1 (imo), so it makes sense to me that the armory can heal armor to keep pace with the game, however i do believe manual repairs (welders) should be more efficient that automated repairs (armory)
SIDE NOTE: remember the welders utility beyond repairing structures and armor, welders will be able to seal doors shut (think weld points in NS1) until an onos smashes that door open again.
<!--quoteo(post=1934320:date=May 7 2012, 09:23 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 7 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would argue that is viable, however aliens can drop crags for 10 tres which will regenerate their armor and health, or a gorge can heal them, thus making the alien asymmetrical equivalent superior to the marine one. You could possibly balance that out by only allowing mature crags to regenerate alien armor, or for alien armor to be fixated to their own regen, or something of that sort, but you would obviously have to propose that mutually with your advanced armory armor idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the point of asymmetry is that one team does have a superior advantage of some sort that needs to be countered by a viable tactic. Right now giving "free" healing to both teams is only marginally asymmetric due to the delivery method (Armories, crags, etc). Their function is nearly identical. It does cost TRES to build armories and crags, but then crags and armories should heal players in different ways. The counter in my eyes is to make welders more effective for the marines, or simply make people realize the effectiveness they already have by forcing them to be used.
The asymmetry comes into play by allowing armories to heal health but not armor until upgrade. Welders are already very cheap and are overlooked as a way to support a fireteam in the field. Armories will still be useful even without armor healing because it will allow people to survive another skulk bite but not give them instant immunity to the damage already dealt to them by the enemy team.
Benson, the fast paceness of NS2 isn't indicative of the games balancing but rather due to the sizes of maps currently in the game. Load up an ole NS1 map. Time until first engagement will reach into the minutes, in NS2 it is withing the first 10 seconds and skulks are in your base. It's a shame really. Maps need to be much larger. MUCH larger.
I see what you're saying, and this would create more thought in placing forward armories. However, I'm not sure how exactly you would go about making them more efficient at healing people aside from buffing the rate of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1934323:date=May 7 2012, 09:34 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the point of asymmetry is that one team does have a superior advantage of some sort that needs to be countered by a viable tactic. Right now giving "free" healing to both teams is only marginally asymmetric due to the delivery method (Armories, crags, etc). Their function is nearly identical. It does cost TRES to build armories and crags, but then crags and armories should heal players in different ways. The counter in my eyes is to make welders more effective for the marines, or simply make people realize the effectiveness they already have by forcing them to be used.
The asymmetry comes into play by allowing armories to heal health but not armor until upgrade. Welders are already very cheap and are overlooked as a way to support a fireteam in the field. Armories will still be useful even without armor healing because it will allow people to survive another skulk bite but not give them instant immunity to the damage already dealt to them by the enemy team.
Benson, the fast paceness of NS2 isn't indicative of the games balancing but rather due to the sizes of maps currently in the game. Load up an ole NS1 map. Time until first engagement will reach into the minutes, in NS2 it is withing the first 10 seconds and skulks are in your base. It's a shame really. Maps need to be much larger. MUCH larger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to draw the line between asymmetry and imbalance though. You're proposing that the game change so that aliens just be better at healing than marines, full stop. Where's the marines' equivalent, different advantage? If you look at asymmetrical competitive games, rarely if ever is one faction just "better" at a core mechanic. Rather, they do completely different things that cannot be directly compared, and the advantages come in the form of different strategies that those different mechanics allow.
Starcraft example, Terran can heal very quickly with medivacs/SCVs, and pay for it, or not heal at all. Zerg heals slowly over time, for free but they cannot speed it up meaningfully (aside from a few edge cases). This lets Terrans heal during combat, and lets zerg heal between fights for no attention or resources. Both strategies are useful, but you can't just look at Terran and say it has better healing than Zerg. They're completely different, and that's what I think we should be going for.
<!--quoteo(post=1934330:date=May 7 2012, 10:12 PM:name=SideOfBeef)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SideOfBeef @ May 7 2012, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have to draw the line between asymmetry and imbalance though. You're proposing that the game change so that aliens just be better at healing than marines, full stop. Where's the marines' equivalent, different advantage? If you look at asymmetrical competitive games, rarely if ever is one faction just "better" at a core mechanic. Rather, they do completely different things that cannot be directly compared, and the advantages come in the form of different strategies that those different mechanics allow.
Starcraft example, Terran can heal very quickly with medivacs/SCVs, and pay for it, or not heal at all. Zerg heals slowly over time, for free but they cannot speed it up meaningfully (aside from a few edge cases). This lets Terrans heal during combat, and lets zerg heal between fights for no attention or resources. Both strategies are useful, but you can't just look at Terran and say it has better healing than Zerg. They're completely different, and that's what I think we should be going for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you read and fully comprehend my idea or did you simply throw it out the window without second consideration? Marines can weld eachother... giving them a way to build up their armor VERY fast (Faster than aliens). Armories still give health, just not armor. There is no imbalance... you just need to use teamwork to aquire repaired armor rather than relying on yourself and an armory. This actually makes the game more balanced in marines favor if teamwork is used.
It will imbalance it in alien favor if the marines neglect to use welders and repair eachother. You need to read deeper into my idea before discarding it... then proving it with your second paragraph.
Also keep in mind that if a commander drops 2 medpacks you are instantly healed to 100%. With an armory this takes time and it repairs armor last. If you have a guy weld your armor in 2 seconds and get a medpack you will have healed quicker than any alien... even if he is getting crag heals on top of a gorge.
Now take a step back and consider what I have said and how that will effect gameplay for marines. Think of how it will force marines to stick together and use teamwork... rather than running alone to a forward armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1934242:date=May 7 2012, 03:51 PM:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ May 7 2012, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the Axe, and I lose it when I buy a Welder. So, I don't buy Welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1934330:date=May 7 2012, 11:12 PM:name=SideOfBeef)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SideOfBeef @ May 7 2012, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have to draw the line between asymmetry and imbalance though. You're proposing that the game change so that aliens just be better at healing than marines, full stop. Where's the marines' equivalent, different advantage?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just hopping in to say that not all things are easily mapped 1:1 and this is not a strong argument (I have no strong opinions one way or the other about this topic). You could say aliens have better health, but marines have ranged weapons. Or alien regen plus whips are about as good of an advantage as beacon. It's impossible to say for every feature "here is the equivalent on the other side".
Comments
Can you see yet why you don't have that PHD in gameological theory?
I don't have one either, but it's still important to follow the principles of reasoning when you construct an argument, or principles of design when..designing.
They didn't create the Spark engine by getting mad at things and typing the first thing that comes into their mind on a forum.
<!--quoteo(post=1934285:date=May 7 2012, 09:24 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just explained how those tradeoffs are non-existent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you didn't. You tried to divert the discussion away from the undeniable facts I brought up by talking about your own ideas ("powerpacks", "running circles around armories" etc) which overcomplicate what I was saying and make it more difficult to reason about it (in the hope that you'll get the last word and feel like a big man). You'll notice I'm not replying to your list because I'm no longer interested.
<!--quoteo(post=1934285:date=May 7 2012, 09:24 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have to claim to be competitive either IE. If you were competitive at all you'd already know where I stand in this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but I don't scrim this game because it's a total waste of time right now, so I don't know that. If it's somehow useful, you could always explain it to me..
Last I checked you run a pub with no sentry limit, and you challenged me to a grudge match in a game you have no experience with and lost horribly. That sounds like 0 for 2 to me, boss.
I don't either, but it's still important to follow the principles of reasoning when you construct an argument, or principles of design when..designing.
They didn't create the Spark engine by getting mad at things and typing the first thing that comes into their mind on a forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are so judgemental. I have played NS1 for YEARS and NS2 for over a year now. This isn't the first time it's popped into my mind. There are 100 other things I have thought about but I tend to only bring up the most essential ones. Armories healing armor is one of them. Through extensive playing of NS1 and NS2 I have found it to be broken. It was that I logged into the game one day and saw something I didn't like. I actually LIKED the healing of armor from armories at first because it made the game EASIER for me. After really comparing it between NS1 I have found that the reason it was changed was to spoonfeed noob players. End of story ;)
You also aren't interested anymore because your argument is exhausted and has been proven wrong. If you really knew you were right you would try to prove it by explaining what about my ideas will break the game. You have still failed to explain what removing armor repair from armories is going to do to the game. All I see is one thing... more teamwork. Sorry, but your opinion is wrong.
Also our "grudge match" wasn't about who was better at quakelive. It was about how the AR behaves like the lightning gun from quake, and how you thought I had ###### aim because I wanted bullet spread on the AR... for aesthetics and fun.
And we can all look at our quake live stats to see whose accuracy is superior.
<!--quoteo(post=1934287:date=May 7 2012, 09:29 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 7 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also our "grudge match" wasn't about who was better at quakelive. It was about how the AR behaves like the lightning gun from quake, and how you thought I had ###### aim because I wanted bullet spread on the AR... for aesthetics and fun.
And we can all look at our quake live stats to see whose accuracy is superior.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright let's all do that.
<a href="http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/yeastiality/" target="_blank">http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/yeastiality/</a>
<a href="http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/luc1d" target="_blank">http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/luc1d</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLk9foLfbnk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLk9foLfbnk</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgr8WnFPyw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgr8WnFPyw</a>
Alright let's all do that.
<a href="http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/yeastiality/" target="_blank">http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/yeastiality/</a>
<a href="http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/luc1d" target="_blank">http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/luc1d</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLk9foLfbnk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLk9foLfbnk</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgr8WnFPyw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dgr8WnFPyw</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE, you can thank Internet Explorer for making your forums such a lovely place for discussion.
but seriously, you got called out :)
but seriously, you got called out :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
on? this person's main goal is to hijack any thread i make and to post vehemently against me in hopes of my discussion topics becoming closed. I am trying to have a real discussion about REAL things in this game... and this is what it is brought to. I started nothing.
YOUR HONOUR, WE FIND THE DEFENDANT HOPELESSLY OBSESSED WITH GETTING +1'D ON A FORUM
BTW, when are we going to be able to drop welders?
Pretty sure you can right now...
YOUR HONOUR, WE FIND THE DEFENDANT HOPELESSLY OBSESSED WITH GETTING +1'D ON A FORUM<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't it obvious to everyone that IE has some sort of problem with me as a person? He clearly has some sort of inferiority complex to go through all this trouble to try to make me look bad. It is far beyond simply disagreeing with me on my ideas. It is a personal attack to me every time you post on these forums. I for one am about to close my account and let you win. No point for me to post in a forum where 1 person constantly is monitoring me and waiting to pounce an attack with me. This guy started googling my name and searching for personal information about me to spread on the forums... that's a +1 for a disussion forum right UWE? Keep letting people like this ruin your forums. We'll see how strong your community lasts... NS1 all over again.
I have contributed many useful forum posts... I have taught many people the game. I have hosted servers and created teams for this game. I constantly am giving to this community... yet every time I post something on the forums this guy is there to attack ME PERSONALLY. This has to stop. Is there any moderator someone can direct me to to try to solve this problem?
Ordinarily, it would appear so. However, since he does this with nearly everyone, I don't think that is the case.
Please don't allow yourself to get bullied so hard over some words on the internet. I just don't agree with your idea about the armory, and wish you would discuss it instead of calling people things they aren't.
Anyway if I get banned because of a guy who calls everyone a spoon-fed casual and can't construct anything resembling an argument, it's a pretty good indication of how cool this game's community is. Can't wait to see what happens next!
I'm personally tired of it and something needs to be done about forum users like this. It's starting to turn into a teenage girls restroom here on the forums. I know UWE is already putting thing in place to stop this kind of posts I hope they hurry with it. Already talked about it with some people in UWE.
You and I both know what I meant when I said you were googling my name in real life. Don't try to hide it. I already sent the post to a couple moderators.
We all see through your BS IE. You try to rally people against me for my harmless, yet blunt opinions and attack me on a personal level. We all see you doing it to people all the time. I'm not the only one tired of it. I've seen you posting even more vehement content on alternate forum names too.
To rebuke your actual points, NS2 is in development. It is not complete like NS1 is nor is every feature currently in the game in its final stages, or even guaranteed to be in the final build.
Also, it costs 10 tres to build an armory. Look at what an armory does:
-Researches (main armory)
-Dispenses ammo
-Dispenses health
-Dispenses armor
Now let's look at the arguable equivalent for aliens, the Gorge (I'm not counting crag because it require a hefty investment):
-Can heal spray aliens back to full health, with armor
-Since aliens don't need weapons or ammo the rest is null
Asymmetrically the two thus function the same or near that. Now let's look at the welder, which functions similar but is distinct from a Gorge:
-Costs 5 pres for marines
-Costs 10 tres to research, and another 10 for the armory itself
-Requires marines to be vulnerable
-Requires other marine to be still or moving at same speed and in predictable fashion
-Only heals armor
Now what you're arguing for is this from what I've read:
-Armories only research and dispense weapons
-Commanders must drop all ammo or med kits
-Armor can only be restored by welders
And now the supposed reason you want this is because the current implementation of the prior points is not tactical (though what you really want to say is pub/noob friendly). I disagree. I disagree because to build an armory requires the investment of 10 tres, usually a phase gate, and marines to defend it. That requires strategic placement because you don't just plop armories down as you please, 10 tres is a lot of res to move around especially in a game where you might hold only 4 RTs at most (balanced game/teams). The investment in an armory is an investment so the commander doesn't HAVE to drop medkits and ammo, and so all the marines don't have to have a welder. What's TACTICAL about this is there is a decision to commit to an area rather than every marine, knowing as soon as he spawns, he's going to grab a welder and that the comm is just going to give med kits out of his pres source and his attention. The reason armories are tactical is because they lead to differentiated decisions and require a commitment of marines to actually be effective. Some other points I would raise is that since med kits come out of comm's pres that means you might just see marines kill themselves because they're low on health if the comm doesn't have a lot of pres. Armories, as an emergent effect from their design, are also a prime target for the alien team (skulks). Armories also do not heal buildings or players on the move which is an advantage of welders.
To rebuke your actual points, NS2 is in development. It is not complete like NS1 is nor is every feature currently in the game in its final stages, or even guaranteed to be in the final build.
Also, it costs 10 tres to build an armory. Look at what an armory does:
-Researches (main armory)
-Dispenses ammo
-Dispenses health
-Dispenses armor
Now let's look at the arguable equivalent for aliens, the Gorge (I'm not counting crag because it require a hefty investment):
-Can heal spray aliens back to full health, with armor
-Since aliens don't need weapons or ammo the rest is null
Asymmetrically the two thus function the same or near that. Now let's look at the welder, which functions similar but is distinct from a Gorge:
-Costs 5 pres for marines
-Costs 10 tres to research, and another 10 for the armory itself
-Requires marines to be vulnerable
-Requires other marine to be still or moving at same speed and in predictable fashion
-Only heals armor
Now what you're arguing for is this from what I've read:
-Armories only research and dispense weapons
-Commanders must drop all ammo or med kits
-Armor can only be restored by welders
And now the supposed reason you want this is because the current implementation of the prior points is not tactical (though what you really want to say is pub/noob friendly). I disagree. I disagree because to build an armory requires the investment of 10 tres, usually a phase gate, and marines to defend it. That requires strategic placement because you don't just plop armories down as you please, 10 tres is a lot of res to move around especially in a game where you might hold only 4 RTs at most (balanced game/teams). The investment in an armory is an investment so the commander doesn't HAVE to drop medkits and ammo, and so all the marines don't have to have a welder. What's TACTICAL about this is there is a decision to commit to an area rather than every marine, knowing as soon as he spawns, he's going to grab a welder and that the comm is just going to give med kits out of his pres source and his attention. The reason armories are tactical is because they lead to differentiated decisions and require a commitment of marines to actually be effective. Some other points I would raise is that since med kits come out of comm's pres that means you might just see marines kill themselves because they're low on health if the comm doesn't have a lot of pres. Armories, as an emergent effect from their design, are also a prime target for the alien team (skulks). Armories also do not heal buildings or players on the move which is an advantage of welders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what I was saying either. My argument is that armories should simply not be able to heal armor until upgraded to advanced armory... to promote players using welders and more teamwork on the field. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
[edited because I'm an idiot]
I would argue that is viable, however aliens can drop crags for 10 tres which will regenerate their armor and health, or a gorge can heal them, thus making the alien asymmetrical equivalent superior to the marine one. You could possibly balance that out by only allowing mature crags to regenerate alien armor, or for alien armor to be fixated to their own regen, or something of that sort, but you would obviously have to propose that mutually with your advanced armory armor idea.
Much easier solution.
SIDE NOTE: remember the welders utility beyond repairing structures and armor, welders will be able to seal doors shut (think weld points in NS1) until an onos smashes that door open again.
P.S. would prefer welder to NOT take place of axe
But the point of asymmetry is that one team does have a superior advantage of some sort that needs to be countered by a viable tactic. Right now giving "free" healing to both teams is only marginally asymmetric due to the delivery method (Armories, crags, etc). Their function is nearly identical. It does cost TRES to build armories and crags, but then crags and armories should heal players in different ways. The counter in my eyes is to make welders more effective for the marines, or simply make people realize the effectiveness they already have by forcing them to be used.
The asymmetry comes into play by allowing armories to heal health but not armor until upgrade. Welders are already very cheap and are overlooked as a way to support a fireteam in the field. Armories will still be useful even without armor healing because it will allow people to survive another skulk bite but not give them instant immunity to the damage already dealt to them by the enemy team.
Benson, the fast paceness of NS2 isn't indicative of the games balancing but rather due to the sizes of maps currently in the game. Load up an ole NS1 map. Time until first engagement will reach into the minutes, in NS2 it is withing the first 10 seconds and skulks are in your base. It's a shame really. Maps need to be much larger. MUCH larger.
The asymmetry comes into play by allowing armories to heal health but not armor until upgrade. Welders are already very cheap and are overlooked as a way to support a fireteam in the field. Armories will still be useful even without armor healing because it will allow people to survive another skulk bite but not give them instant immunity to the damage already dealt to them by the enemy team.
Benson, the fast paceness of NS2 isn't indicative of the games balancing but rather due to the sizes of maps currently in the game. Load up an ole NS1 map. Time until first engagement will reach into the minutes, in NS2 it is withing the first 10 seconds and skulks are in your base. It's a shame really. Maps need to be much larger. MUCH larger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to draw the line between asymmetry and imbalance though. You're proposing that the game change so that aliens just be better at healing than marines, full stop. Where's the marines' equivalent, different advantage? If you look at asymmetrical competitive games, rarely if ever is one faction just "better" at a core mechanic. Rather, they do completely different things that cannot be directly compared, and the advantages come in the form of different strategies that those different mechanics allow.
Starcraft example, Terran can heal very quickly with medivacs/SCVs, and pay for it, or not heal at all. Zerg heals slowly over time, for free but they cannot speed it up meaningfully (aside from a few edge cases). This lets Terrans heal during combat, and lets zerg heal between fights for no attention or resources. Both strategies are useful, but you can't just look at Terran and say it has better healing than Zerg. They're completely different, and that's what I think we should be going for.
Starcraft example, Terran can heal very quickly with medivacs/SCVs, and pay for it, or not heal at all. Zerg heals slowly over time, for free but they cannot speed it up meaningfully (aside from a few edge cases). This lets Terrans heal during combat, and lets zerg heal between fights for no attention or resources. Both strategies are useful, but you can't just look at Terran and say it has better healing than Zerg. They're completely different, and that's what I think we should be going for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you read and fully comprehend my idea or did you simply throw it out the window without second consideration? Marines can weld eachother... giving them a way to build up their armor VERY fast (Faster than aliens). Armories still give health, just not armor. There is no imbalance... you just need to use teamwork to aquire repaired armor rather than relying on yourself and an armory. This actually makes the game more balanced in marines favor if teamwork is used.
It will imbalance it in alien favor if the marines neglect to use welders and repair eachother. You need to read deeper into my idea before discarding it... then proving it with your second paragraph.
Also keep in mind that if a commander drops 2 medpacks you are instantly healed to 100%. With an armory this takes time and it repairs armor last. If you have a guy weld your armor in 2 seconds and get a medpack you will have healed quicker than any alien... even if he is getting crag heals on top of a gorge.
Now take a step back and consider what I have said and how that will effect gameplay for marines. Think of how it will force marines to stick together and use teamwork... rather than running alone to a forward armory.
This.
Unless welders did more dmg/sex than axe.
Just hopping in to say that not all things are easily mapped 1:1 and this is not a strong argument (I have no strong opinions one way or the other about this topic). You could say aliens have better health, but marines have ranged weapons. Or alien regen plus whips are about as good of an advantage as beacon. It's impossible to say for every feature "here is the equivalent on the other side".