I don't know if the gorge pres hydras are the biggest worry with scalability. You can cap the hydra counts regardless of whether they cost pres or not.
Meanwhile the marine firepower, splash damage weapons (GL!) and such are really, really tricky beasts in bigger games. Lots of things are going to be very different in different game sizes, no matter how you try to balance the res system itself.
In regards to energy not scaling with team sizes, that means more players won't mean more medpacks and more ammo to drop, which will kind of gimp the commander's support ability on larger servers.
Yes forward armory will probably be more useful in big games, but like Bacillus said there is many thing that don't scale linearly with player count, so the game will probably be different at different player counts anyway.
However I still think it's a good idea to have some form of res scaling, because it fixes (in theory at least) the biggest scaling issues. If there is some little ones left it's not so dramatic.
<!--quoteo(post=1934785:date=May 9 2012, 10:13 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 9 2012, 10:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to energy not scaling with team sizes, that means more players won't mean more medpacks and more ammo to drop, which will kind of gimp the commander's support ability on larger servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Instead of having energy scale, have those commander support abilities scale. The alien commander chamber abilities scale well due to their AoE nature. For instance, if a commander clicks a player for nano-shield, other marines within a radius also receive it. As a side benefit, it promotes marines sticking together. Nano-construct is trickier, since buildings structures as a marines already doesn't scale (since more players means faster build times). However, instead of clicking on players, commanders click on the unfinished structure and all players constructing it will build faster. For med and ammo packs, allow multiple players to walk over and benefit from a single pack (but a player can only use a pack once), so its virtually the same supporting one player as it is four players. Maybe change the graphic of the packs to look like small ammo/med crates (eventually). Scan scales well enough already, which would mean scaling up energy would give larger player games more scanning ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1934773:date=May 9 2012, 03:07 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ May 9 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Meanwhile the marine firepower, splash damage weapons (GL!) and such are really, really tricky beasts in bigger games. Lots of things are going to be very different in different game sizes, no matter how you try to balance the res system itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry about that, it is already solved. Reg gets worse as the player count goes up effectively reducing the damage of all weapons :D Scalability baby!
Awesome Q&A, thanks so much for putting it on! Really looking forward to some more artistic Q&A next time, I'll have to try to post a question during work : ).
Maybe the nade launcher could be like rifle grenades in WW2? You know, you put the grenade to the end of the barrel and when firing it gets propelled by the expanding gasses in the barrel. That way a marine would be vulnerable only when he has a grenade at the end of the barrel. He'd still have his rifle with him.
<!--quoteo(post=1934766:date=May 9 2012, 02:52 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ May 9 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh god, <i>please</i> no. I still have nightmares about the horrible L4D matchmaking system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quake Live managed to do it well though, so I'll give them a chance. I enjoyed being pitted against opponents of equal skill without having to check server by server.
<!--quoteo(post=1935091:date=May 10 2012, 01:19 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 10 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quake Live managed to do it well though, so I'll give them a chance. I enjoyed being pitted against opponents of equal skill without having to check server by server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you try dueling on it? At least I got thrown against opponents that rocked me 25-1 or so. I really wanted to learn the dueling, but it would've taken so much time when most of the defeats were too brutal to be eductional. It probably would've been way better on the actual monthly fee servers though.
No, I stuck to team-based modes... I did get the feeling everyone I fought was a little better than me, but still, I'd call that an improvement over involuntary pubstomping.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1935217:date=May 10 2012, 10:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 10 2012, 10:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, I stuck to team-based modes... I did get the feeling everyone I fought was better than me, but I'd call that an improvement over involuntary pubstomping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quake Live doesn't work too well unfortunately. I'm not a good player at all and I'm still almost always in Tier 4 in Clan Arena, which goes all the way from "I can hit people somewhat and strafe-/rocketjump some" skill level to "I hit 50% LG and play you like I had a wallhack" professional skill level. It can work fine for a while if you're lucky, but usually you will jump back and forth between pubstomping Tier 3 matches and getting seriously owned in Tier 4. Tier 1-3 works for casual gaming, but if you play FPS games frequently, you will hit Tier 4 fairly easily, at least in CA. I've never seen a duel game below Tier 4, so I never even bothered trying.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Grenade Launcher"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Go back to the original, bulky, no-rifle-attachment GL and give it a wide-ranged Rifle-butt Bash to fling Skulks away.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pulls players into the vortex...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aaaand? Kills them? Spits them out with the Fade?
<!--quoteo(post=1935116:date=May 10 2012, 10:24 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ May 10 2012, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you try dueling on it? At least I got thrown against opponents that rocked me 25-1 or so. I really wanted to learn the dueling, but it would've taken so much time when most of the defeats were too brutal to be eductional. It probably would've been way better on the actual monthly fee servers though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a more obvious skill gap in duel, but that's because people who play duel are sorta better in general than people playing CA/CTF/FFA (at low levels). It's the same as 1v1 compared to 2v2/3v3/4v4 in Starcraft - you get a much clearer picture of someone's aim/movement/timing/positioning when it all comes down to what they did personally.
The ranking system still works, though - play enough games and the game gets a better idea of your skill level. You can also meet players who are better/the same/worse and play them again later to see how you're improving. This is especially important in CTF/TDM, where you basically can't have a 'real' game in a pub. You have to join pugs on IRC and all that nerdy jazz, or chances are half the people in the server are just taking up space.
As for premium/pro servers, I find it has almost no bearing on skill level (from where I'm at) - people buy premium and don't know what aerowalk is, have never played CPMA before and so on...the very best QL duellers primarily play the free maps, and the game has always been sorta stunted/split by the presence of a paid aspect. It's really sad to me that people can't pay $2 a month to keep Quake alive as a game, but when all the major sponsors/tournaments have vanished I sorta see their side too.
This is getting really off topic, but if you want to learn duelling I'd suggest watching the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=iem+quake" target="_blank">IEM tournament games from 2009/2010/2011</a> casted by 2gd, joe etc. They're very good about explaining how the basics come into everything, so you can learn a lot by watching Rapha or Cypher play (even though you couldn't hope to understand their thought process right now).
Cheers!
<!--quoteo(post=1935222:date=May 10 2012, 04:40 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ May 10 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quake Live doesn't work too well unfortunately. I'm not a good player at all and I'm still almost always in Tier 4 in Clan Arena, which goes all the way from "I can hit people somewhat and strafe-/rocketjump some" skill level to "I hit 50% LG and play you like I had a wallhack" professional skill level. It can work fine for a while if you're lucky, but usually you will jump back and forth between pubstomping Tier 3 matches and getting seriously owned in Tier 4. Tier 1-3 works for casual gaming, but if you play FPS games frequently, you will hit Tier 4 fairly easily, at least in CA. I've never seen a duel game below Tier 4, so I never even bothered trying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't even look at the tiers, honestly. Use <a href="http://qlranks.com/" target="_blank">QLRanks </a>to get a more accurate picture (although it still varies a lot between maps/gamemodes like PQL).
For a really good example of a matchmaking system that works, I'd point to Starcraft II.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited May 2012
This was great. It gave a little look into the behind-the-scenes going-ons at UWE. I think its easy for the community to forget that there is a whole lot going on internally that we don't see in the beta, and that there actually is a method to the madness. It was nice to be reminded and I'm looking forward to seeing more of these interviews.
Comments
I'm a bit sad about the answer to devour, too.
Meanwhile the marine firepower, splash damage weapons (GL!) and such are really, really tricky beasts in bigger games. Lots of things are going to be very different in different game sizes, no matter how you try to balance the res system itself.
However I still think it's a good idea to have some form of res scaling, because it fixes (in theory at least) the biggest scaling issues. If there is some little ones left it's not so dramatic.
How do you expect lerk to work when performance gets better
How do you balance the skulks when performance gets better after silly hitreg, bad animations and collision gets fixed.
How do you plan on fixing the mass lifeforms problem.
Instead of having energy scale, have those commander support abilities scale. The alien commander chamber abilities scale well due to their AoE nature.
For instance, if a commander clicks a player for nano-shield, other marines within a radius also receive it. As a side benefit, it promotes marines sticking together. Nano-construct is trickier, since buildings structures as a marines already doesn't scale (since more players means faster build times). However, instead of clicking on players, commanders click on the unfinished structure and all players constructing it will build faster. For med and ammo packs, allow multiple players to walk over and benefit from a single pack (but a player can only use a pack once), so its virtually the same supporting one player as it is four players. Maybe change the graphic of the packs to look like small ammo/med crates (eventually). Scan scales well enough already, which would mean scaling up energy would give larger player games more scanning ability.
Don't worry about that, it is already solved. Reg gets worse as the player count goes up effectively reducing the damage of all weapons :D Scalability baby!
Quake Live managed to do it well though, so I'll give them a chance. I enjoyed being pitted against opponents of equal skill without having to check server by server.
Did you try dueling on it? At least I got thrown against opponents that rocked me 25-1 or so. I really wanted to learn the dueling, but it would've taken so much time when most of the defeats were too brutal to be eductional. It probably would've been way better on the actual monthly fee servers though.
Quake Live doesn't work too well unfortunately. I'm not a good player at all and I'm still almost always in Tier 4 in Clan Arena, which goes all the way from "I can hit people somewhat and strafe-/rocketjump some" skill level to "I hit 50% LG and play you like I had a wallhack" professional skill level. It can work fine for a while if you're lucky, but usually you will jump back and forth between pubstomping Tier 3 matches and getting seriously owned in Tier 4. Tier 1-3 works for casual gaming, but if you play FPS games frequently, you will hit Tier 4 fairly easily, at least in CA. I've never seen a duel game below Tier 4, so I never even bothered trying.
Go back to the original, bulky, no-rifle-attachment GL and give it a wide-ranged Rifle-butt Bash to fling Skulks away.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pulls players into the vortex...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aaaand? Kills them? Spits them out with the Fade?
There's a more obvious skill gap in duel, but that's because people who play duel are sorta better in general than people playing CA/CTF/FFA (at low levels). It's the same as 1v1 compared to 2v2/3v3/4v4 in Starcraft - you get a much clearer picture of someone's aim/movement/timing/positioning when it all comes down to what they did personally.
The ranking system still works, though - play enough games and the game gets a better idea of your skill level. You can also meet players who are better/the same/worse and play them again later to see how you're improving. This is especially important in CTF/TDM, where you basically can't have a 'real' game in a pub. You have to join pugs on IRC and all that nerdy jazz, or chances are half the people in the server are just taking up space.
As for premium/pro servers, I find it has almost no bearing on skill level (from where I'm at) - people buy premium and don't know what aerowalk is, have never played CPMA before and so on...the very best QL duellers primarily play the free maps, and the game has always been sorta stunted/split by the presence of a paid aspect. It's really sad to me that people can't pay $2 a month to keep Quake alive as a game, but when all the major sponsors/tournaments have vanished I sorta see their side too.
This is getting really off topic, but if you want to learn duelling I'd suggest watching the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=iem+quake" target="_blank">IEM tournament games from 2009/2010/2011</a> casted by 2gd, joe etc. They're very good about explaining how the basics come into everything, so you can learn a lot by watching Rapha or Cypher play (even though you couldn't hope to understand their thought process right now).
Cheers!
<!--quoteo(post=1935222:date=May 10 2012, 04:40 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ May 10 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quake Live doesn't work too well unfortunately. I'm not a good player at all and I'm still almost always in Tier 4 in Clan Arena, which goes all the way from "I can hit people somewhat and strafe-/rocketjump some" skill level to "I hit 50% LG and play you like I had a wallhack" professional skill level. It can work fine for a while if you're lucky, but usually you will jump back and forth between pubstomping Tier 3 matches and getting seriously owned in Tier 4. Tier 1-3 works for casual gaming, but if you play FPS games frequently, you will hit Tier 4 fairly easily, at least in CA. I've never seen a duel game below Tier 4, so I never even bothered trying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't even look at the tiers, honestly. Use <a href="http://qlranks.com/" target="_blank">QLRanks </a>to get a more accurate picture (although it still varies a lot between maps/gamemodes like PQL).
For a really good example of a matchmaking system that works, I'd point to Starcraft II.