Shotgun fire delay

.ADHd · May 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">hate to have to do this again....</div>I will be running a modded lua on the traNs^end Gaming server. It will remove all firedelays on skulk bites, shotguns, bile bomb, and pistol.

I have been running the server for a day or so now and the general consensus is that aiming the shotgun is a lot easier. One person tonight claimed the shotgun felt "laggy". Then I told him I edited the lua to make the shotgun have no firedelay haha which kinda made me giggle.

Here is the vanilla code in balance.lua my server changes a few of the settings though.

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\natural selection 2\ns2\lua\Balance.lua
00215: kRifleMeleeFireDelay = 0.7
00220: kPistolFireDelay = 0.1
00224: kPistolAltFireDelay = 0.2
00230: kWelderFireDelay = 0.45
00235: kAxeFireDelay = 0.6
00240: kGrenadeLauncherFireDelay = 0.4
00248: kShotgunFireDelay = 0.9
00257: kFlamethrowerFireDelay = 0.5
00269: kMinigunFireDelay = 0.06
00274: kMACAttackFireDelay = 0.6
00289: kARCFireDelay = 3
00303: kBiteFireDelay = 0.45
00310: kParasiteFireDelay = 0.5
00320: kSpitFireDelay = 0.5
00325: kHealsprayFireDelay = 0.8
00330: kBileBombFireDelay = 1
00337: kSpikeFireDelay = 0.08
00350: kSpikesAltFireDelay = 0.5
00356: kSporesDustFireDelay = 0.18
00357: kSporesCloudFireDelay = 0.8
00365: kSwipeFireDelay = 0.65
00370: kStabFireDelay = 1.5
00380: kGoreFireDelay = 0.5
00386: kSmashFireDelay = 1.9
00404: kDrifterAttackFireDelay = 0.6

On my server the firedelays on some weapons have been edited to 0.0

stinghawk · May 2012

There is definitely something wrong with the shotgun still. Although i feel it is linked to performance.

I seems so hard to aim and fire with the shotgun. sometimes i feel like i have more success predicting my shot as if it were a projectile than actually aiming and firing. it definitely needs to be fixed. NS1 shotgun was amazing and definitely my favorite weapon.

.ADHd · May 2012

Stinghawk... I think we have found the reason for why it's so hard for you to hit stuff. The 200ms some odd delay before the weapon actually fires might be it eh?

By the way, I doubt it has anything to do with performance since the delay is there even at 60+ fps

I am just trying to rationalize with the developers here. People notice the shotgun doesn't work right, but not many people are sensitive enough to pinpoint the problem.

All it would take to fix is changing one line of script.

stinghawk · May 2012

just because you get 60fps doesnt mean there still arent performance issues. but yes its hard to pinpoint the issue. as long as the devs see players issuing complaints about it then i am happy.

.ADHd · May 2012

I agree with you and thank you for your contribution to this thread, but i disagree with you when you say the underlying problem with the shotgun is performance.

I will edit my original post with a FRAPS video showing the delay on the firing of the shotgun. We can pinpoint how many actual milliseconds it is.

stinghawk · May 2012

you're probably right. i guess to me performance is what frustrates me the most about the game. that and close spawns.

PS. no 208 build tonight? :(

internetexplorer · May 2012

Stinghawk has a point, though...performance means a lot more than your client's FPS. Part of the reason for things like the fire delay is to make it fit in with the bigger picture (many clients trying to sync with the server on timesteps, interpolation etc). If it always works better without the delay, great...and hopefully somebody notices your solution. If not, there's more to it.

.ADHd · May 2012

My team, myself, a few friends and pubbers got together and tested these settings vigorously. We ran a 18 man server all night with it packed using the settings. Nobody had any complaints and the people in on the testing all noticed improved accuracy with any gun with firedelay removed. Is this a total fix? Probably not, but in the end it helped a lot and didn't effect server performance or balance really at all to my knowledge.

It also made playing as skulk a lot more fun seeing your bites register immediately rather than being laggy as per usual.

I am scratching my head here trying to figure out what the developers are thinking when they added these delays to weapons. I'm sure there is similar balances and timings in other FPS games but I have never noticed it or been hindered by it like I am in NS2.

I discussed it with a couple other people with technical knowledge about this sort of stuff and they claim it is for balance, but then we tested it and noticed no difference in balance. Just faster and more precise gameplay. So I am a bit dumbfounded here, and very surprised nobody from UWE has responded to this thread with an explanation.

I don't want to see this hidden and tucked away from the communities view because its something everybody deserves to know about this game. Our playing and the intuition we rely on is being hindered by this apparently useless feature.

xDragon · May 2012

lol what you most likely noticed was some kind of placebo, from my testing most/all weapon delay timings now are based solely on the animation graph, i think only a few actually used those delays.

Checked cause i was bored, only one that appears to be actively used is kWelderFireDelay.

edit: And potentially kMACAttackFireDelay.

.ADHd · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ May 10 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>lol what you most likely noticed was some kind of placebo, from my testing most/all weapon delay timings now are based solely on the animation graph, i think only a few actually used those delays.

Checked cause i was bored, only one that appears to be actively used is kWelderFireDelay.

edit: And potentially kMACAttackFireDelay.</div>

Well you are probably right then dragon and now I feel like an idiot. Probably why I am not a game developer, but I still know the shotgun is laggy and doesn't fire when I click. It must be linked to input lag caused by the bottlenecking of my CPU.

I have a 3.2ghz quad core with 8 gigs of ram and an nvidia 460. It runs every game on the market like crisp butter. I still get an average of 15-25 FPS constant in this game though.

The input lag / performance could be the problem with the shotgun then. I admit I was wrong about the lua settings.
So, I guess all I have to worry about now is sitting around waiting for this game to be optimized for more than 1 core.

Sewlek · May 2012

i will removed those misleading variables. those are still a left over before we added the new animation system

Raneman · May 2012

Fire delays are loving stupid. When I fire, it should fire. This is just an artificial limit on skill, designed to make you miss when you should have hit.

.ADHd · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ May 11 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Fire delays are loving stupid. When I fire, it should fire. This is just an artificial limit on skill, designed to make you miss when you should have hit.</div>

This thread was my bad raneman. I think we all clarified here that there is no intentional firedelay on the weapons. So, I think what were experiencing is a whole other issue. I think people with slower cpu's are noticing it a lot more which is probably feeding the whiners such as myself. I just thought it was a feature added into the game... hahahaha. Oh gosh I feel like such an idiot for that.

stickyboot · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 11 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>This thread was my bad raneman. I think we all clarified here that there is no intentional firedelay on the weapons. So, I think what were experiencing is a whole other issue. I think people with slower cpu's are noticing it a lot more which is probably feeding the whiners such as myself. I just thought it was a feature added into the game... hahahaha. Oh gosh I feel like such an idiot for that.</div>
Whatever. I'll still mess with you on steam. ;p

Skie · May 2012

Just to clarify, the firing delays in the balance.lua were used previously for timing between bullets/shots/attacks with weapons. Now they're determined by something called the animation graph.

However, I'm quite certain that there is one frame of delay with all attacks right now. Meaning, if you swing a shotgun across the screen and try to hit a specific target, your shot will always land to a place one frame behind from when you clicked the mouse button. With varying framerates and the speed of your swing, this can be anywhere from "a little off" to "completely off".

This is very hard to prove with video footage because you need to know you're:
- Accurate enough
- Knowing where you're aiming
- Intentionally trying to hit a specific target
- Assuring other viewers that you really are accurate

However I firmly believe this delay exists and I've reported it as a bug. I hope to see something done about it soon.

flyjum · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 10 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Well you are probably right then dragon and now I feel like an idiot. Probably why I am not a game developer, but I still know the shotgun is laggy and doesn't fire when I click. It must be linked to input lag caused by the bottlenecking of my CPU.

I have a 3.2ghz quad core with 8 gigs of ram and an nvidia 460. It runs every game on the market like crisp butter. I still get an average of 15-25 FPS constant in this game though.

The input lag / performance could be the problem with the shotgun then. I admit I was wrong about the lua settings.
So, I guess all I have to worry about now is sitting around waiting for this game to be optimized for more than 1 core.</div>

I dont think its the fps as I have constant 90+fps pretty much(some dips at times)
I have some issues as well

I have shot a skulk point blank up close 3 times and not had him die
Saw blood all over ect
At times it feels like a hit reg issue other times it feels like the gun delays before it hits.

I have stop buying the shotgun because I can not ever hit anything with it reliably
Sometimes I 1 shot a skulk across the room that I thought I missed but other times well you know.

If there is a delay set it they should remove it
Nothing on the gun should make a sound flash or any other animations before the round is shot off(and already hit its target unless the bullet speed is very slow)
In a shooting game the weapons have to fire when you click the mouse
I have no idea on how the game is coded but having a firing delay off the animation graph(or any fire delay period) should be removed.

.ADHd · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ May 13 2012, 03:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Just to clarify, the firing delays in the balance.lua were used previously for timing between bullets/shots/attacks with weapons. Now they're determined by something called the animation graph.

However, I'm quite certain that there is one frame of delay with all attacks right now. Meaning, if you swing a shotgun across the screen and try to hit a specific target, your shot will always land to a place one frame behind from when you clicked the mouse button. With varying framerates and the speed of your swing, this can be anywhere from "a little off" to "completely off".

This is very hard to prove with video footage because you need to know you're:
- Accurate enough
- Knowing where you're aiming
- Intentionally trying to hit a specific target
- Assuring other viewers that you really are accurate

However I firmly believe this delay exists and I've reported it as a bug. I hope to see something done about it soon.</div>

Well actually it would be really easy to prove with a fraps video. All I need to do is have a visual cue for when I press mouse 1. Then slow the video down ultra slow and show how long it takes for my mouse input to actually make it in the game.

Also all firing animations start on frame 1. So there is no frame delay and even if there was... 1 frame is pretty small and would never be noticed / probably wouldn't be able to even sense it unless you were in the single digit FPS range.

SpaPal · May 2012

Don't forget they also changed the shotgun damage model so its based on the number of pellets that make contact (after lag interp and prediction) and also damage drop off. Before the damage was based on if 50% of greater of pellets made contact it =100% damage. A dev chimed in on a much older post somewhere I forget but understanding the damage model does make up for some of the confusion but I agree that interp is still not great.

In the current model, as I understand it, even if one of the spread pellets makes contact with an alien your going to see it as a "hit" but only doing 1 pellet worth of damage which is not a lot so 3 marginal hits from a shotgun blast is doing marginal damage. Trying to shoot something more than 10 meters away in-game isn't even worth firing at because of the damage drop-off and each pellet does something like 1-2 damage.

c0ke · May 2012

did i understand that right: there is a 0.2s delay for the shotgun to shoot ? that could explain some things..
but who the hell had such a ... idea? and what is it supposed to add positivly to the game? realism ??

.ADHd · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (c0ke @ May 14 2012, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>did i understand that right: there is a 0.2s delay for the shotgun to shoot ? that could explain some things..
but who the hell had such a ... idea? and what is it supposed to add positivly to the game? realism ??</div>

There used to be... and yes it was for "realism" then people complained and set the dev's straight ;).

However, even though it was removed a few builds ago the delay is still there, but this time in the form of bad performance.

So, in all the shotgun delay was coded to be removed, but there is an underlying performance issue that is causing CPU bottlenecking which in turn delays input to the game engine. In my opinion it is actually a hell of a lot worse than having a programmed delay since at least then it would be consistent.

Obviously complaining about this won't help too much, but I sure hope UWE is confident they can fix these issues SOON. The game really depends on it.

stinghawk · May 2012

so i was right adhd ;)

Shotgun fire delay

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