Tech Explosions
Tweadle
Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
Tech explosions are a serious issue in NS2. There's a very stop-start approach to dominance in the game because of the non-staggered resource system combined with the purchase-your-own-stuff. When you research shotguns/gls/mines, suddenly the map is covered with shotguns/gls/mines. When you hit the 50pres mark as aliens, suddenly the whole map is covered with fades. When you hit the 75res point, onoses pop out; often two-at-a-time.
<b>NS1</b>
NS1 saw the game develop a lot more gradually. One lerk would pop out very early or a little bit later, a gorge might drop a structure here or there (every gorge was making tradeoffs in his head about whether to drop a chamber, oc or rt). A good skulk might advance to fade earlier than is companion because of rfk. A further fade enters the field later. An onos is an extraordinary sight and is rarely expected. All the while, there is slow map coverage that gorges provide by way of rts and hives. As for marines, equipment was a serious deal and was handed out sparingly or aggressively depending on the scenario. An early shotgun was a risky strategy, multiple shotguns for the hive push was viable and AA did not give rise to a hmg/gl explosion unless there had been deliberate saving going on.
<b>RFK</b>
RFK or some kind of reward4action system is good place to start if we want to tackle this. Even if the gain was very small, it would still help to stagger the lifeforms so that the game doesn't instantly turn on its head. Its affect on timing is a minor issue in my opinion and is actually something that I think should be viewed as an asset. The subtle timing changes add variety and require a layer of awareness from both teams but the strategies are still, for the most part, unchanged. RFK also goes some way to addressing other issues such as scaling - as player counts go up, so does the respool. For the record, I would employ T.res4kill on the marine-side and P.res4kill for aliens. An added benefit from rfk is the sense of contribution it affords. Every marine kill feels valuable for the team and every alien kill comes with a reward for yourself - both are very satisfying.
<b>Khamm/Gorge</b>
RFK won't fix the problem on its own by any means. There are much deeper problems for aliens that make tech explosions hard to avoid. The Khamm and free gorge structures are the biggest culprits in this regard. The Khamm alone strips away four starting roles from NS1 (rt-gorge, rt-fade, chambers, hive) which means there are an extra four potential lifeforms. I say 'potential' but, as it stands, these players are almost guaranteed to take lifeforms because there is no other way of spending your resources. The gorge was our one hope for a resource sink but the free structures mean that a lifeform is only going to be delayed by 10 or 20res. In NS1, the gorge progressed remarkably well and it's effectiveness grew with time - that is not the case now. I'm a big advocate of a return to the p.res gorge model and hope that the gorge's problem can be addressed via some alternative idea.
<b>Upgrade Purchasing</b>
Purchasing upgrades is another way of avoiding tech explosions but it's one I'm reluctant to use. My primary concern is that a purchasing scheme and the way skulks are played is mostly incompatible. Skulk-effectiveness is, even with upgrades, very sporadic and the sensation of lost resources is not something I'd like to cultivate. There's also the issue of who it is optimal for to buy upgrades. It's easy to predict that bad players (who die anyway) will never buy upgrades and save for a lifeform while good players (who die much less) can reap the rewards of upgrades far more effectively. For skulks, I am adamantly against purchasing upgrades but if people have their hearts set on it, I would relucantly cede to staggered upgrade costs i.e. 0res for skulk, 2res for lerk, 4res for fade etc etc. It does very little to alleviate the tech explosion in that case though.
<b>NS1</b>
NS1 saw the game develop a lot more gradually. One lerk would pop out very early or a little bit later, a gorge might drop a structure here or there (every gorge was making tradeoffs in his head about whether to drop a chamber, oc or rt). A good skulk might advance to fade earlier than is companion because of rfk. A further fade enters the field later. An onos is an extraordinary sight and is rarely expected. All the while, there is slow map coverage that gorges provide by way of rts and hives. As for marines, equipment was a serious deal and was handed out sparingly or aggressively depending on the scenario. An early shotgun was a risky strategy, multiple shotguns for the hive push was viable and AA did not give rise to a hmg/gl explosion unless there had been deliberate saving going on.
<b>RFK</b>
RFK or some kind of reward4action system is good place to start if we want to tackle this. Even if the gain was very small, it would still help to stagger the lifeforms so that the game doesn't instantly turn on its head. Its affect on timing is a minor issue in my opinion and is actually something that I think should be viewed as an asset. The subtle timing changes add variety and require a layer of awareness from both teams but the strategies are still, for the most part, unchanged. RFK also goes some way to addressing other issues such as scaling - as player counts go up, so does the respool. For the record, I would employ T.res4kill on the marine-side and P.res4kill for aliens. An added benefit from rfk is the sense of contribution it affords. Every marine kill feels valuable for the team and every alien kill comes with a reward for yourself - both are very satisfying.
<b>Khamm/Gorge</b>
RFK won't fix the problem on its own by any means. There are much deeper problems for aliens that make tech explosions hard to avoid. The Khamm and free gorge structures are the biggest culprits in this regard. The Khamm alone strips away four starting roles from NS1 (rt-gorge, rt-fade, chambers, hive) which means there are an extra four potential lifeforms. I say 'potential' but, as it stands, these players are almost guaranteed to take lifeforms because there is no other way of spending your resources. The gorge was our one hope for a resource sink but the free structures mean that a lifeform is only going to be delayed by 10 or 20res. In NS1, the gorge progressed remarkably well and it's effectiveness grew with time - that is not the case now. I'm a big advocate of a return to the p.res gorge model and hope that the gorge's problem can be addressed via some alternative idea.
<b>Upgrade Purchasing</b>
Purchasing upgrades is another way of avoiding tech explosions but it's one I'm reluctant to use. My primary concern is that a purchasing scheme and the way skulks are played is mostly incompatible. Skulk-effectiveness is, even with upgrades, very sporadic and the sensation of lost resources is not something I'd like to cultivate. There's also the issue of who it is optimal for to buy upgrades. It's easy to predict that bad players (who die anyway) will never buy upgrades and save for a lifeform while good players (who die much less) can reap the rewards of upgrades far more effectively. For skulks, I am adamantly against purchasing upgrades but if people have their hearts set on it, I would relucantly cede to staggered upgrade costs i.e. 0res for skulk, 2res for lerk, 4res for fade etc etc. It does very little to alleviate the tech explosion in that case though.
Comments
Well, that was the original reasoning for removing it but it really hasn't seemed to do anything to alleviate marine turtle stalemates.
It still wouldn't help for those situations though.
In regards to gorge structures, I still think having them cost pres but give a large refund is a good idea.
Marine stalemates needs to be addressed in other ways.
<!--quoteo(post=1936135:date=May 14 2012, 02:39 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 14 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tech explosions are a serious issue in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are tech explosions an issue?
Why is gradually evolving gameplay better than the sudden tech changes?
Is all this just because you miss the gameplay of NS and you have not seen the exciting and thrilling moments created by the current tech explosion gameplay?
I don't think I've justified my point very well actually; i'll come back to this rushed response later. ENSL gather, innit.
Why is gradually evolving gameplay better than the sudden tech changes?
Is all this just because you miss the gameplay of NS and you have not seen the exciting and thrilling moments created by the current tech explosion gameplay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Few I can come up quickly would be that it would give opposing team less time to react and adapt with your own choices and there is no point in saving for anything instead the game is much more effiecient going one premade tactic all the way. Opposed to changing stuff up depending how opponent plays.
I dont know what you mean by thrilling moments but I certainly dont find sudden changes like complete game turnaround at 50 res or sudden gl rush amusing.
The way they tried to balance this problem is to make the fades bad against buildings/arcs so if you go all fade the team is punished. I think it's working a bit, we've seen in some games that all fade team have trouble killing rts and stopping arc pushes.
Why is gradually evolving gameplay better than the sudden tech changes?
Is all this just because you miss the gameplay of NS and you have not seen the exciting and thrilling moments created by the current tech explosion gameplay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because every game ends up looking too similar for my tastes, a steady progression of upgrades rather than any real sacrifice and tradeoffs. Not to mention there are too many guns and higher lifeforms flying around imo. Besides mass deployment of tech is still viable under a more gradual system, it is just a bigger investment and an actual strategy rather than the standard.
<!--quoteo(post=1936180:date=May 14 2012, 11:22 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ May 14 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont know what you mean by thrilling moments but I certainly dont find sudden changes like complete game turnaround at 50 res or sudden gl rush amusing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it's thrilling the first couple of times, but after youve seen the game turn around every other game at the 50pres mark or the GL mark it looses much of its excitement.
Having expansive and unique tech trees only counts for so much if half the tech in the game (that is the aliens) is supposed to be based on timers. Timers lead to predictable gameplay that gets stale after a short while. I know that there is still a good amount of exciting and game-changing tech still coming in, and a ton of balancing after that, but that wont change at what times certain tech MUST be out.
res per kill might not be the solution, but an element of randomness, like personal res rewards for completing important objectives to break up the set timings of the game will be important to the survival of the game as a whole, in my opinion anyway.
(maybe like killing res nodes, common enough to have an effect, but rare enough not to have 1 min fades)
I think NS1 did this extremely well already. As a commander I really wanted to get an enemy RT killed before the lerk is out, the map control established before the fade is out and so on. Meanwhile it didn't completely dictate the game. For example if I wanted to kill a node against a lerk, I needed to get the lerk distracted somewhere or force it to heal up through some nading or snipe the node quickly with a big investment of 2 SGs or so on.
With mass lifeforms they're just everywhere and you're going to fall apart unless you're set up for defence when they get the res.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The way they tried to balance this problem is to make the fades bad against buildings/arcs so if you go all fade the team is punished. I think it's working a bit, we've seen in some games that all fade team have trouble killing rts and stopping arc pushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, looks like it's going that way. However, the more we go that way, the more the game becomes more of a class based shooter and less of an RTS. It's moving away from the area where NS is unique.
Also, the more limited the lifeforms become in their abilities and roles, the duller they are to play. Oftentimes in NS1 it was wonderful how the lifeforms could adapt to the situations. It was much more about figuring out how to do the right thing at the right moment in right amount rather than doing the one designated thing you can do. I guess Flayra talks about how lifeforms didn't have clearly defined roles, but I really found it to be much more of a strength than an issue. Even something like gorging was absolutely awesome because I could mix up tanking, healing, spitting, bilebombing and building in a way I saw fit for the situation at hand. The very situational and flexible play is one of the biggest reasons why I still absolutely love playing NS.
Or maybe the Onos eggs could gravitate towards each other, forming a Super Onos that devours the entire map. A map change then automatically follows and the game continues inside the belly of the Super Onos.
RFK is also a huge newb penalty that can make experienced players rage at new ones; see feeding in LoL or HoN.
Are kills the only way to gain resources in LoL/HoN (never played either)? Because since NS has RTs that are responsible for the larger portion of the resource income, feeding might not be as problematic in comparison. I don't remember it being a significant problem in NS1.
I like your idea of staggered evolution costs: that might be just the ticket.
If RFK were to work it would have to be a way of distributing pres not creating new res (ie. higher percentage of pres goes to top players), but that's still flawed as whoever gets fade first will stay top of the board.
I think you could avoid the problem by making sure higher life-forms don't first appear with augment. Some way of re-introducing the shadow step fade and non-stomp Onos in the mid-game would make them much weaker. I've suggested making Aliens mature into their abilities over time (so a fade doesn't get blink until he's lived for x mins (maybe boosted by kills to stop him waiting at spawn). That way fades will be killable whilst they're young and take a while to replace. - Far from perfect solution though.
While dead you don't recieve Pres, or, Pres is gained at a reduced rate while dead.
This could have the dual effect of rewarding good players and reducing the kamakaze tactics seen on both sides lately.
Edit: On further thought I guess it's pretty much the opposite of RFK as you're probably losing max 1 res per death. So pretty much a system that makes dying more of a negative than it is currently.
It's also a large part of what makes LOL fun and it has something like 32 million people playing it so they must be doing something right..
or because it's free and runs on ###### computers
Just because millions of people have AIDs doesn't mean they're doing something right. Your argument is invalid. The benefit of killing someone is that you take them off the field; RFK implies there is no consequence to killing someone or that there isn't enough. In NS2 there is a strong benefit for the killer to make a kill, especially if the other player has invested pres or is guarding an objective. RFK would only create needless rewards for players when substantial ones already exist.