Projectile spores
Align
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
(It feels a little awkward to post about gameplay now that I'm sorta official, but please don't let that affect your thoughts or posts)
Rather than make the suggestion outright, I'll put up some questions and hope those with more experience can answer:
1. Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1?
Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...
2. Would projectile spores detract too much from the desired Lerk v2 behaviour of needing to get up close to fight, like the other aliens?
Assume it'd be considerably weaker than sporetrail since it's safer to use.
3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?
4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use?
There have been ideas for new takes, like adding the Lerk's momentum to the emitted sporetrail, which could let you cover much of the marine base by doing a high-speed U-turn at the entrance, while still giving the marines <i>some</i> chance to react.
Rather than make the suggestion outright, I'll put up some questions and hope those with more experience can answer:
1. Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1?
Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...
2. Would projectile spores detract too much from the desired Lerk v2 behaviour of needing to get up close to fight, like the other aliens?
Assume it'd be considerably weaker than sporetrail since it's safer to use.
3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?
4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use?
There have been ideas for new takes, like adding the Lerk's momentum to the emitted sporetrail, which could let you cover much of the marine base by doing a high-speed U-turn at the entrance, while still giving the marines <i>some</i> chance to react.
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1936759:date=May 17 2012, 07:25 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 17 2012, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1?
Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they were useful in some situations, but it kind of depends on the turtle you're breaking and all that. Usually marines turtled in spots that were a bit tricky to spore consistently. The spore was definitely useful, but it's not a cure-all turtle counter by any means.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it sounds least to say tricky design direction.
Basically you've got a 30 res lifeform with very little HP and you're playing a game filled shotguns, grens and possibly other burst damage sources. I think lerk needs some kind of low-risk activity or it'll have a tendency to turn into an extremely fragile do-or-die lifeform.
In NS1 you had the relatively low risk spores and high risk bite. By combining them you could try to maximize the damage and pick bite frags, but still also manage the risks and contribute even against a way more powerful opponent.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it depended a lot on the map design, game flow and opponent's equipment. Some maps forced you to be pretty exposed to land good spores, other maps gave you really safe spots. Things like nades could also mix things up sometimes. In general, the more active the map movement is, the more fun the spore usage is also. Wearing down passive marine fortification isn't that much fun, but fighting against an active marine team that harasses back is really interesting.
I think in general some little extra twist in sporing mechanic wouldn't have been bad. That ensures some extra fun for the less interesting moments. Meanwhile in active gameplay it's not that bad in the first place, not at least in the occassional play I had with lerk.
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No suggestions for specific NS2 mechanics, I don't think I understand the game well enough to go there.
Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...
2. Would projectile spores detract too much from the desired Lerk v2 behaviour of needing to get up close to fight, like the other aliens? Assume it'd be considerably weaker than sporetrail since it's safer to use.
3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?
4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use?
There have been ideas for new takes, like adding the Lerk's momentum to the emitted sporetrail, which could let you cover much of the marine base by doing a high-speed U-turn at the entrance, while still giving the marines <i>some</i> chance to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) it was better at blocking off areas as it's volume /size was huge and it was pretty deadly. it was actually area denial compared to now which encourages you to run <i>through </i>it. I say bring back a much larger cooldown for it along with it's strength to give back it's area denial purpose. even 25% more damage would be amazingly effective. But could this help with turtling? maybe but its sorta cheap, imo.. I much prefer, as a lerk, to do my bombing runs. *see below
2)Yes. I believe so. The projectile Lerk encouraged perching up somewhere and picking your shots. Lerk was not as prone to flying with his weapons as he is now. Remember the sniping?
3) Obviously this is an issue considering it's paper thin health, when viewed as "up close to fight"... with spikes you dont have to necessarily be "up close" and you definitely better be flying with evasive maneuvers. But with spores you should be cropdusting.. and its hard for me to consider "crop dusting" as "fighting up close" as you are in and out. But even doing that requires a higher skill ceiling typically. i still would not trade it.
4)Yes.
*The answer, imo, as i can see where you are going with this -<b> would be to give a flicker of umbra on the under belly of the lerk while ONLY sporing. </b>
This would allow it to effectively use it's crop dusting ability with slightly less damage intake. If it wanted to "fight", well then it would still be just as vulnerable - i like this idea the most because the Lerk is not exactly "deadly" when sporing a room, which can be considered an act of "support" or "area denial". <b>This would also help address <u>turtling </u>again as a lerk could enter a room of turrets and spore them without dying as soon as he enters, as it is currently!</b> This code has already been written by matso back in February, btw.
Rather than make the suggestion outright, I'll put up some questions and hope those with more experience can answer:
1. Did projectile spores help noticeably against marine turtling in NS1?
Armouries didn't repair armour and aliens could get Focus, but welders were cheap...
2. Would projectile spores detract too much from the desired Lerk v2 behaviour of needing to get up close to fight, like the other aliens?
Assume it'd be considerably weaker than sporetrail since it's safer to use.
3. <i>Should</i> the Lerk need to get up close to fight?
4. Were projectile spores too easy (/boring) to use?
There have been ideas for new takes, like adding the Lerk's momentum to the emitted sporetrail, which could let you cover much of the marine base by doing a high-speed U-turn at the entrance, while still giving the marines <i>some</i> chance to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm posting here because this is a good thread.
I think the developers could try giving the Lerk projectile spores again because bile bomb is a close range attack, while spores is a long range attack. Spores only hurt marines, while bile bomb hurts structures.
Thus, if bile bomb can be balanced somehow (it always feels either overpowered or underpowered, never balanced so far), then projectile spores sound nice and might actually make the Lerk playable again. Because right now the Lerk is a big fat "MEH" in terms of gameplay.
Sporetrail forces lerks to suicidally attack marines, give it Projectile Spores again and see what happens when Exoskeleton or Exosuit is added finally.
<ul><li>they force the lerk to commit suicide against good opponents</li><li>because of that, their power has to be quite high (manifested in "completely blinding marines and making combat ridiculously simple")</li></ul>
It's a very bad mechanic, and it's part of what has pigeonholed the lerk into being a really crappy lifeform.
<b>The design approach of having the lerk get into the fray is the correct one, imo.</b>
<i>You just have to address it's survive-ability</i> in situations where it needs to use it's weapons. (the fade can blink/shadow, the skulk jump/dance/leap, and the onos can stomp/charge.. but the lerk has nothing other than "evasive maneuvers" to use a <u>support </u>weapon)
This has not been addressed yet, and as such it is still, as internetexplorer put it: suicide.
Attempts to raise it's HP or Armor in the past have led to terrible results.
Something like i suggest above would raise the skill ceiling, make it more effective at support and sieges and prevent any OP lerks from occurring. IMO obviously.
It's very easy to use and quite frankly, frustrating to fight against, knowing the Lerk rarely made itself a viable target. I'm not saying that the current cropduster spore is any more fun to combat, but at least there's risk vs. reward going on.
I still like the idea of spore clouds expanding as they dissipate, so they can cover more area over time. The current iteration of opaque clouds as the beginning stage of a Lerk Spore run could retain the smokescreen usage for fly-by's/escape.
Messing up the design and calling it a bad one isn't the way to go. Various people have already explained why the lerk needs some way to contribute without completely committing into close quarters.
Do you actually actually have any response or solution for the huge risk management people keep talking? Vague "increasing the skill curve" isn't going anywhere unless you come up with a way where lerk can actually do something else than hope that the world class shotgunner with smooth performance isn't going to land a hit at you.
Yes
No
No
No
Long winded version/rant
Aliens need something that does not necessitate them getting within a couple of metres of the marines, the old type spore attack was good in principle.
The marine perspective of not being able to see where it comes from is not a big one in my opinion as the minute they know...that lerks screwed.
Perhaps trail a whisp of spores back to the source if there is a major concern, though I dont think its needed, only so many places a lerk can sit.
The current method of needing to dive/strafe bomb is silly and total suicide if the marines are turtling (as we all like to occasionally do).
You cant overcome turtling if all your attacks require you to be within spitting distance when the enemy just needs line of sight. Every time you turn the corner they open up...you have to then run/fly x number of metres to take a couple of pot shots yourself.
Its not like the marines are as easy pickings in melee as aliens are at ranged combat so even if you make the distance you are not guaranteed to get a kill.
I used to like to go lerk a bit....but being a flying alien getting up close and personal with marines is not going to end well more times than it does, so I now hold off and stay skulk as I stand a better chance taking on the marines.
I think the trend to remove any ranged weapons from aliens (with the exception of lerk spikes..but they are sadly very weak) has meant there is no real alternative life form and why lerk when you can fade.
The res difference is minor and you can be of more use to your team as more powerful and with a better chance of surviving. If lerk cost 5 Res then I could understand changing the gas from ranged to bombed. But with lerks costing 30 (over 1/2 fade or 1/3 of an onos) your survivability over being a skulk is severely reduced so a poor investment strategically, with the old gas projectile you could safe guard your investment as you could sit a little bit away and cause damage. The fact you could also hit within line of sight made the lerk work, you could gas a doorway and they shoot at anyone that comes through.
Sure 1 marine will struggle to kill that lerk but 2 should be able to kill it or atleast chase it off with out too much hassle most times.
Not all aliens should be run in like some suicide bomber...not when they are so underpowered in close as the lerk. Sure a fade can but only cose he can blink out of there, whilst the onos simply relies on the high HP's. Lerk has neither of these two traits.
Its hard to even argue its better than a skulk...when you look at the cost of res.
The lerk should be a pesky little thing that can cause the marines some grief.
You sure? I know the really old hive 3 spores were, but IIRC in v3.x it shot a visible and quite slow puff..
I kind of like having at least some ways to do more spore damage depending on how you use them. For example if you do somehow stronger spores at short range, it doesn't force you to go all in, but still rewards heavy commitment. At that point, the good lerks are the ones living on the edge and knowing when to commit and how much.
---
As in general, the one thing I'm not liking about the projectile spore is the increased lerk count. It's most likely going to be a lot of spore all game long.
I just don't know, there are so many things that are somewhat incompatible with the mix of old NS1 and new NS2 we've got in the game. I'd like to rethink whole lifeforms, but that's probably not an option at this point.
1) Projectile spores that do more damage depending on how quickly they explode. Firing spore directly into the floor would yield higher damage then firing it into the floor from a distance.
2) Momentum-projectile spores that require movement from the lerk in order for the spores to traverse distances. Lerks in vents would find it difficult to spore freely and could only drop them (almost) vertically out of them. Good lerks would still be able to spore from a distance but at some cost.
Both solutions mean that lerks are <i>more</i> effective the closer they are but doesn't kill their effectiveness from distance outright.
Spikes is a bigger problem, if i'm going to be honest. At the moment, I can dominate marines with them because of bad performance but people are kidding themselves if they think they'll be able to use them in any situation other than peak-and-prays once marines can actually hit things. Oh and giving bilebomb to such a mobile unit is going to be a headache to balance for quite some time, I predict. It's a double-shame because it was a useful and satisfying ability for the gorge too.
Will we see it?
Will we see it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
Lerk is being completely reworked in terms of abilities which will need balancing. Since the Bile Bomb is now going to the Gorge the Lerk will have its attacks shuffled around a bit.
It's still undecided if it will require two or more to lift an Onos.
Alternately, Web might move over to the Lerk instead.
<b>I did.</b> read up.
Lerk is being completely reworked in terms of abilities which will need balancing. Since the Bile Bomb is now going to the Gorge the Lerk will have its attacks shuffled around a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good. I find the projectile spores boring. Rushing into the fray, releasing spores is great fun - just the lerk needs to be balanced enough to survive these ordeals.
Any clues as to what ability will replace bile bomb? Would be nice to have bite back, since the lerk is already firing spores at melee range, but I get the impression you want to avoid it in favour of something more interesting.
why should it be able to fly up in close range, use an attack that blinds all the marines and escape just because the player held down the spacebar and right clicked? that would make the lerk incredibly bad for the game
<!--quoteo(post=1937095:date=May 18 2012, 04:48 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ May 18 2012, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerk is being completely reworked in terms of abilities which will need balancing. Since the Bile Bomb is now going to the Gorge the Lerk will have its attacks shuffled around a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you hide the details about this until it's completed and refuse feedback from the beta players, it will be crappy and nobody will like it. just sayin'.
Once it's on the dev tracker.
Lerk is being completely reworked in terms of abilities which will need balancing. Since the Bile Bomb is now going to the Gorge the Lerk will have its attacks shuffled around a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a shame.
This still leave the aliens without any form of ranged attack and thus unable to do anything against turtling marines.
Lerk lift would be useless, dropping a skulk into a base with 2 marines and 3-4 turrets still leaves the skulk (and alos most likely lerk) dead.
Onos is the only lifeform able to get into such a base and actually do anything, even then a single onos is going to die before he can take down the power to disable the turrets.
Projectile spores means that aliens have something that does some ranged damage and could cause the marines to move and not sit in one spot camping their spawn.
There will be a long road ahead of trying to balance things if the aliens have nothing that has the ability to do line of sight damage.
30 res is a lot...currently the lerk is so far out of its depth spending money on lerks is waste of money and your better of saving for fade.
The reason why you see a sudden influx of onos is that aside from teh fade the lower life forms suck and are at best equals to skulk not superior. So people dont bother wasting their res on lerks anymore.
The lerk can fly and should attack differently to other species, this is already acknowledged by the fact there are lerk spikes and not like in the later days of ns1.
To still gimp the lerk with its secondary attack being bombed and not projectile seems like a bad joke. What exactly is the lerk offering for 30 res that makes it worth not waiting for 20 more and going fade instead? You cant easily fly backwards and will lose a shoot out with a marine pretty quickly, getting closer does not help you in surviving longer.
So the lerk is basically a 30 res flying potato gun, spikes are a nuisance to most marines...not deadly.
Make the lerk gas a projectile again (the distance/density idea mentioned above has merit), you could then make the exo suit like the HA in NS1 that renders the gas useless so advanced/tech'd marines dont have to worry about the gas assuming they can afford to buy armour and dont buy a jp.
This would compliment the ranged lerk spikes that they already have by giving an additional way for them to help the skulks/fades that are better "priced"/equiped for close quarters melee.
This still leave the aliens without any form of ranged attack and thus unable to do anything against turtling marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who says the weapon shuffling occurring for the lerk wont be able to accomplish that? :)
As for not having "anything against turtling marines": Gorges will have BB, Lerks might have X, fades will have X, onos have primal scream/roar, and skulks get Xeno, presumably (ugh)
More than equipped if you know what X stands for :-P
I think every Marine weapon plays/will play a part in breaking alien turtles as well.. even if its bullets
As for not having "anything against turtling marines": Gorges will have BB, Lerks might have X, fades will have X, onos have primal scream/roar, and skulks get Xeno, presumably (ugh)
More than equipped if you know what X stands for :-P
I think every Marine weapon plays/will play a part in breaking alien turtles as well.. even if its bullets<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on the comment of "No" I dont see the weapon shuffle as helping, unless there is another projectile except for lerk spikes that I am unaware of that they would likely swap (I doubt gorge spit would move).
They could give the lerk something totally unexpected by all means...however I dont see them going projectile with it.
Even if they do...would be hard for it not to be just another lerk spike, which is where the gas was unique.
It did area damage at range...if the marines stay within it. This would make repairing a turtle base harder to do.
Everything you listed is a close combat weapon, bile bombs barely go 3 metres so dont actually help. A well defended marine base (ie 3 turrets) is very hard to take down currently only onos is any real use...even then you want 2 plus atleast 1 fade to take one down.
The lerk has no ability worth 30 res without spores being ranged, ranged spores would also stop marines turtling so much...a lerk could harass with gas and spike from a distance. Both are underpowered individually but together at a distance they can work well.
Spores need to be projectile based to be of any use to the lerk and allow him to play a little bit more conservatively...30 res is a lot of an investment early in teh game.
want to stop seeing 3 fade/onos at once? then provide a viable lifeform between skulk and fade/onos that offers greater assistance than a good skulk.
Supress the bilebomb ability and give it to gorge.
Make bite instead of spike.
Make umbra spore instead of bilebomb.
YOU WIN.
Like this lerk can spore from distance and finish marine from close distance, he has two real options.
<i>Why are you so stuck on projectile?</i> The aliens are primarily melee based. NS1 had lerk bite, but no one seemed to complain about that, in fact most ask for it to make a come back!
Projectile spores aren't the only solution.
<b>In fact i wouldn't even call them a solution of any kind.</b> Not ever having a chance to visibly identify and combat your opponent was not a solution of any form. (see my earlier posts for more explanation) Address the root of the problem and you wouldn't even suggest such a flawed mechanic; Lerk survivability/viability.
What about <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/images/thumb/b/b4/Observatory.png/225px-Observatory.png" target="_blank">this</a>?
The visibility aspect is the way it is because someone decided it would be a good idea to make spores nearly opaque. In NS1, they were much more transparent.
If the aliens are made purely melee based, they're all skulks with different movement and health/armor (until someone staples a bunch of stunlocks and stuff to all the attacks to "fix" it). That lack of variety is probably bad for the game.
Is the obs mobile?
Does it inflict direct damage?
BTW the same argument can be made about the drifter.. which.. again.. is not a combative opponent, even though it is mobile and can inflict very small amount of dmg.
op·po·nent/əˈpÅnÉ™nt/
Noun:
Someone who <u>competes </u>against or <u>fights </u>another in a contest, game, or argument.
If its a one sided fight like with an obs, then its not a fight but an execution. And if its not a fight then its not an opponent.
edit: and No, the visibility aspect i was referring to was the lerk being able to gas around corners/hallways from a great distance without any sense of danger/threat. Easily able to fly away quickly should those rines walk through the spores. Im also not calling for all melee, either, as you see i used the word "primarily".. obviously the lerk already has spikes and i am not suggesting they be removed. (although i think they dont fit the role enough, shotgun would be better.)
The observatory is mobile in the sense that it can scan anywhere at any time if you have managed your energy well. The aliens don't have an equivalent to that, but do they struggle to find a marine hiding in a corner lobbing grenades every few seconds? No! Because it isn't difficult.
<!--quoteo(post=1937779:date=May 20 2012, 06:30 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 20 2012, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: and No, the visibility aspect i was referring to was the lerk being able to gas around corners/hallways from a great distance without any sense of danger/threat<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is more of a map design issue, and I bet it wouldn't happen in NS2 (since everything is so much more cramped than in NS1 maps).
The only way to really see if projectile spores work or not is to try them. Has anyone in the internal testing group tried it for an hour or two? There's a lot of potential there for refining the lerk, regardless of what design is chosen in the end. Stubbornly saying projectile spores can never work isn't the best approach..