NS2 has been violating its own design principles
Stergeary
Join Date: 2010-07-05 Member: 72252Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2010-07-05 Member: 72252Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Refer to <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit?pli=1" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1...L1js/edit?pli=1</a>
As you can see, a bunch of the stated principles are simply not the direction the game is headed or the game shows little to no movement in that direction. I'll just address some of the places where the game does not play in the manner described.
<b>A. The game should be balanced at low as well as high player counts.</b> This is not the case because:
1: Marines need players to build, but the number of buildings you need to build in order to play as Marines do not scale up and down with player count. You will always need Extractors, Infantry Portals, an Armory, an Observatory, an Arms Lab, and so on and so forth. Just because it's 3v3 doesn't mean you need any fewer buildings than a 10v10, and the issue is that each Marine building is one less Marine fighting.
2: Aliens can spend P-Res to outpower the Marines with Onoses, making each late-game Alien player "worth" more than each Marine player. This means the game does not scale fairly upwards when each individual Alien player has P-Res dedicated solely to the acquisition of lifeforms, which are much more influential than players with a Jetpack and a non-Rifle weapon.
3: The three resource types in NS2 are T-Res, P-Res, and Energy. The properties of these resources are that T-Res scales with Node control, P-Res scales with Node control and player count, and Energy is static until Tech Points are taken. However, the current design of the game is that Aliens use Energy for speeding up Tech and for expanding with Cysts. They use T-Res for constructing and researching Tech. They use P-Res for obtaining lifeforms to get map control and to end the game. Whereas Marines use Energy to use assists, which allow Marines to push for map control and grab Nodes. T-Res goes into Tech, expansion, and the ARC game-ender. P-Res goes into Mines and weapons to gain map control.
The problem here is that this means the Aliens' ability to end the game scales with player count, while the Marines' ability to end the game scales with map control. The Aliens' ability to get map control scales with Res + player count, while the Marines' ability to get map control scales only with their Res Node count. The Marines' ability to upgrade scales with their Res Node count, but for Aliens' it scales... Well, NOTHING, because how fast Augmentation gets up depends on Energy, and it's the single most important thing in the game for Aliens. None of this assymetry makes sense from a design perspective. For example, why does Energy, a non-scaling resource until Tech Points get captured in mid-game, get expended for giving Medpacks and Ammopacks, which DOES scale with player count?
<b>B. The game wants all options to be viable at all points in the game such that, for example, no one weapon or lifeform ever completely eclipses another.</b> This is not the case because:
1. Grenade Launchers are a clear upgrade over Assault Rifles. The rifle butt is only effective against Skulks, whereas the Grenade Launcher attachment is useful against Skulks, Lerks, and buildings.
2. There's no reason not to get a Jetpack if you can get a Jetpack, as weak as it may be. It confers no particular disadvantage other than the loss of 10 res.
3. Mines, Sentries, and Skulks very much ARE eclipsed late-game just as they were in NS1.
<b>C. The game should be a shooter first and strive for fairness in the FPS concept before the RTS concept.</b> This is not the case because:
1. Any one Marine can suddenly become the God of War, at any time, anywhere on the battlefield, solely by the will of the Commander. No Alien can fight against a Nano-Shielded Marine standing in a puddle of Medpacks, it simply cannot be done unless you have an Onos. You can Ax down 3 Skulks while Shielded with Medpacks if you really felt like it. And if the Marine has a Shotgun, this becomes impossible for a Fade as well.
2. Back to the Alien lifeforms issue, the concentration of higher lifeforms is simply so significant late-game due to the irrelevance of Skulks except in destroying lone Extractors that every Skulk is worth less than a highly upgraded Marine while every Lerk, Fade, and Onos is worth far more than any single Marine. I.e. It is very unlikely that in a 1-to-1 ratio of Lerks or Fades or Onoses against Marines, that the Marines will win. This has been the case since NS1, that each Alien death meant so much late game while Marines' lives were generally worthless, especially since their weapons can be salvaged.
3. The Marines' advantage was supposed to be that only they had direct-damage ranged weapons. The ranged-versus-melee dynamic was a large part of what made NS1 good. Lerk, oddly, breaks this mechanic for NS2 by having a ranged primary weapon as well as a secondary that stops Marines from leveraging their ranged advantage. This isn't "disruption", it simply disables players. Disruption implies there's some reasonable thing you can do about it, but there isn't, short of being forced to run around the spores or having a Flamethrower. Similarly with the Onos' Stomp, except a more extreme case.
<b>D. The game should allow enemy teams to defend against a strategy if they know about it.</b> This isn't the case because:
1. There is no clear visual indicator that the Marine has opted for a particular strategy. Firstly, the difference between a Shotgun rush, early Phase Tech, and fast Grenade Launchers all look EXACTLY the same. It's not like the Marines will skip Observatory just because they aren't going Phase Tech, and it's also not like the presence of an Observatory proves there's going to be Phase Gates. Likewise, you can't see that an Armory is being upgraded, nor can you see that they're going Shotguns. And secondly, even if they are, how would you know? Are you going to keep running Skulks into their base to check whether their Armory is shaking around?
2. Aliens have no strategy to even counter. They're going to go Augmentation, that's a given, it's in fact a LINEAR progression from "Have only 2 abilities" to "Have 3 abilities now", and assumedly, "Have 4 abilities now." And as far as the chambers are concerned, it's a surprise maybe for the first few seconds when a Cloaked Skulk kills you. After that, it's nothing original. There's no depth to "They have Sensory, lets get Observatory." And if they went Carapace instead, well shucks, what's the counter to Carapace? Shoot MORE bullets?
I hope it's pretty clear where NS2 just doesn't fit the bill as far as where it's headed compared to where its aspirations lie. There are more design flaws than I can name so I'm sure I missed a few, but I feel like experimenting towards the direction of the ideal would be more meaningful than making random and unjustifiable changes that divorce NS2 from NS1. Because no matter how much you want to say "But NS2 is a different game!", it is still the case that NS2 is built on the dynamics of NS1, and as the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
As you can see, a bunch of the stated principles are simply not the direction the game is headed or the game shows little to no movement in that direction. I'll just address some of the places where the game does not play in the manner described.
<b>A. The game should be balanced at low as well as high player counts.</b> This is not the case because:
1: Marines need players to build, but the number of buildings you need to build in order to play as Marines do not scale up and down with player count. You will always need Extractors, Infantry Portals, an Armory, an Observatory, an Arms Lab, and so on and so forth. Just because it's 3v3 doesn't mean you need any fewer buildings than a 10v10, and the issue is that each Marine building is one less Marine fighting.
2: Aliens can spend P-Res to outpower the Marines with Onoses, making each late-game Alien player "worth" more than each Marine player. This means the game does not scale fairly upwards when each individual Alien player has P-Res dedicated solely to the acquisition of lifeforms, which are much more influential than players with a Jetpack and a non-Rifle weapon.
3: The three resource types in NS2 are T-Res, P-Res, and Energy. The properties of these resources are that T-Res scales with Node control, P-Res scales with Node control and player count, and Energy is static until Tech Points are taken. However, the current design of the game is that Aliens use Energy for speeding up Tech and for expanding with Cysts. They use T-Res for constructing and researching Tech. They use P-Res for obtaining lifeforms to get map control and to end the game. Whereas Marines use Energy to use assists, which allow Marines to push for map control and grab Nodes. T-Res goes into Tech, expansion, and the ARC game-ender. P-Res goes into Mines and weapons to gain map control.
The problem here is that this means the Aliens' ability to end the game scales with player count, while the Marines' ability to end the game scales with map control. The Aliens' ability to get map control scales with Res + player count, while the Marines' ability to get map control scales only with their Res Node count. The Marines' ability to upgrade scales with their Res Node count, but for Aliens' it scales... Well, NOTHING, because how fast Augmentation gets up depends on Energy, and it's the single most important thing in the game for Aliens. None of this assymetry makes sense from a design perspective. For example, why does Energy, a non-scaling resource until Tech Points get captured in mid-game, get expended for giving Medpacks and Ammopacks, which DOES scale with player count?
<b>B. The game wants all options to be viable at all points in the game such that, for example, no one weapon or lifeform ever completely eclipses another.</b> This is not the case because:
1. Grenade Launchers are a clear upgrade over Assault Rifles. The rifle butt is only effective against Skulks, whereas the Grenade Launcher attachment is useful against Skulks, Lerks, and buildings.
2. There's no reason not to get a Jetpack if you can get a Jetpack, as weak as it may be. It confers no particular disadvantage other than the loss of 10 res.
3. Mines, Sentries, and Skulks very much ARE eclipsed late-game just as they were in NS1.
<b>C. The game should be a shooter first and strive for fairness in the FPS concept before the RTS concept.</b> This is not the case because:
1. Any one Marine can suddenly become the God of War, at any time, anywhere on the battlefield, solely by the will of the Commander. No Alien can fight against a Nano-Shielded Marine standing in a puddle of Medpacks, it simply cannot be done unless you have an Onos. You can Ax down 3 Skulks while Shielded with Medpacks if you really felt like it. And if the Marine has a Shotgun, this becomes impossible for a Fade as well.
2. Back to the Alien lifeforms issue, the concentration of higher lifeforms is simply so significant late-game due to the irrelevance of Skulks except in destroying lone Extractors that every Skulk is worth less than a highly upgraded Marine while every Lerk, Fade, and Onos is worth far more than any single Marine. I.e. It is very unlikely that in a 1-to-1 ratio of Lerks or Fades or Onoses against Marines, that the Marines will win. This has been the case since NS1, that each Alien death meant so much late game while Marines' lives were generally worthless, especially since their weapons can be salvaged.
3. The Marines' advantage was supposed to be that only they had direct-damage ranged weapons. The ranged-versus-melee dynamic was a large part of what made NS1 good. Lerk, oddly, breaks this mechanic for NS2 by having a ranged primary weapon as well as a secondary that stops Marines from leveraging their ranged advantage. This isn't "disruption", it simply disables players. Disruption implies there's some reasonable thing you can do about it, but there isn't, short of being forced to run around the spores or having a Flamethrower. Similarly with the Onos' Stomp, except a more extreme case.
<b>D. The game should allow enemy teams to defend against a strategy if they know about it.</b> This isn't the case because:
1. There is no clear visual indicator that the Marine has opted for a particular strategy. Firstly, the difference between a Shotgun rush, early Phase Tech, and fast Grenade Launchers all look EXACTLY the same. It's not like the Marines will skip Observatory just because they aren't going Phase Tech, and it's also not like the presence of an Observatory proves there's going to be Phase Gates. Likewise, you can't see that an Armory is being upgraded, nor can you see that they're going Shotguns. And secondly, even if they are, how would you know? Are you going to keep running Skulks into their base to check whether their Armory is shaking around?
2. Aliens have no strategy to even counter. They're going to go Augmentation, that's a given, it's in fact a LINEAR progression from "Have only 2 abilities" to "Have 3 abilities now", and assumedly, "Have 4 abilities now." And as far as the chambers are concerned, it's a surprise maybe for the first few seconds when a Cloaked Skulk kills you. After that, it's nothing original. There's no depth to "They have Sensory, lets get Observatory." And if they went Carapace instead, well shucks, what's the counter to Carapace? Shoot MORE bullets?
I hope it's pretty clear where NS2 just doesn't fit the bill as far as where it's headed compared to where its aspirations lie. There are more design flaws than I can name so I'm sure I missed a few, but I feel like experimenting towards the direction of the ideal would be more meaningful than making random and unjustifiable changes that divorce NS2 from NS1. Because no matter how much you want to say "But NS2 is a different game!", it is still the case that NS2 is built on the dynamics of NS1, and as the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Comments
Short answer:
These goals are things to keep in mind when making this game... but considering its still a WIP, a lot of these elements (timings, balance etc) aren't going to be focused on in detail until we are feature complete. So things like one weapon working better than another is simply a matter of changing some numbers in a lua file. Easily done, sure.. but its not our focus just yet.
Also, while you can find a few things that violate each of those goals, there still exists plenty of examples that follow them. These are still good points though, and should be considered down the road.
The fact that marines need to build is encorporated into their balance, just as the fact that skulks only have melee attacks is encorporated into theirs. This can easily be seen on a micro scale. Consider the difficulty of building an extractor in a room occupied by 1 marine and 1 alien. Now consider doing the same in a room occupied by 5 marines and 5 aliens. According to you their should be a massive discrepency, but there isn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1938056:date=May 22 2012, 03:29 AM:name=Stergeary)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stergeary @ May 22 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2: Aliens can spend P-Res to outpower the Marines with Onoses, making each late-game Alien player "worth" more than each Marine player. This means the game does not scale fairly upwards when each individual Alien player has P-Res dedicated solely to the acquisition of lifeforms, which are much more influential than players with a Jetpack and a non-Rifle weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Each marine has P-Res dedicated solely to the acquisition of superior weapons, with which to fight aliens - no difference. It is true that, on a per player basis, aliens always have the "potential" to be more powerful than any single marine. However it is also true that marines benefit greatly from concentrated fire, that is to say that they "stack" better than aliens do. To put it in another, probably more confusing way; if a single marine is equal to 1, two marines are equal to 2.2 .
<!--quoteo(post=1938056:date=May 22 2012, 03:29 AM:name=Stergeary)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stergeary @ May 22 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3: The three resource types in NS2 are T-Res, P-Res, and Energy. The properties of these resources are that T-Res scales with Node control, P-Res scales with Node control and player count, and Energy is static until Tech Points are taken. However, the current design of the game is that Aliens use Energy for speeding up Tech and for expanding with Cysts. They use T-Res for constructing and researching Tech. They use P-Res for obtaining lifeforms to get map control and to end the game. Whereas Marines use Energy to use assists, which allow Marines to push for map control and grab Nodes. T-Res goes into Tech, expansion, and the ARC game-ender. P-Res goes into Mines and weapons to gain map control.
The problem here is that this means the Aliens' ability to end the game scales with player count, while the Marines' ability to end the game scales with map control. The Aliens' ability to get map control scales with Res + player count, while the Marines' ability to get map control scales only with their Res Node count. The Marines' ability to upgrade scales with their Res Node count, but for Aliens' it scales... Well, NOTHING, because how fast Augmentation gets up depends on Energy, and it's the single most important thing in the game for Aliens. None of this assymetry makes sense from a design perspective. For example, why does Energy, a non-scaling resource until Tech Points get captured in mid-game, get expended for giving Medpacks and Ammopacks, which DOES scale with player count?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is complete and utter garbage. I will not try and discredit the single underlying premise behind your arguement, simply because there isn't one. Instead I will point out the errors you have made.
<u>The Aliens' ability to get map control scales with Res + player count, while the Marines' ability to get map control scales only with their Res Node count.</u>
This would mean that, at the start of a game, when marines have only one res node, it would be the hardest for them to expand, and they would almost always be outmatched by the aliens, since their player count is constant. This is obviously not the case, and this is because the ability to expand scales with player count for both teams, this should be obvious.
<u>The Marines' ability to upgrade scales with their Res Node count, but for Aliens' it scales... Well, NOTHING, because how fast Augmentation gets up depends on Energy, and it's the single most important thing in the game for Aliens.</u>
Most players agree that, at the moment, an alien team's ability to win rests largely (if not entirely) with higher life forms, which are based directly on possession of res nodes. Augmentation is considered a given in most games currently (which is bad) and is certainly not a game changer.
The medpack and ammo pack argument might possibly be your only coherent and applicable one. However, it is worth noting that I doubt the intention behind med and ammo packs is to resupply every soldier on the battlefield who takes damage or expends ammunition. The point is to comprehensively support a specific spearhead which is of particular importance. The number of important offensives you launch should not scale with players, otherwise you are fighting on too many fronts and deserve to lose. I assume the idea behind it is that there should always be enough energy to support the important things, but not enough to support all the things.
Shame about some of the replies though...
<!--quoteo(post=1938145:date=May 22 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 22 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most players agree that, at the moment, an alien team's ability to win rests largely (if not entirely) with higher life forms, which are based directly on possession of res nodes. Augmentation is considered a given in most games currently (which is bad) and is certainly not a game changer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can get all the needed lifeforms to win the game within reasonable time by holding 2 harvesters the entire game as alien. The amount of harvesters isn't limiting anything unless you're getting dominated.
Augmentation is the single most important upgrade currently in the game. It gives the aliens access to leap, bilebomb, blink and stomp.
<!--quoteo(post=1938145:date=May 22 2012, 02:02 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 22 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is complete and utter garbage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ironic, considering the "quality" of your own post.
Give me your estimation of how long it takes the alien team to get a single Onos while holding 2 harvesters.
UWE has acknowledged that NS2 might not reach all the design principles in 1.0. But you are correct to use that for design critique.
Of your points, i think the res model, getting diversity of play & lifeform timing across games is the most important.
The B-D stuff should be worked, but is not as serious as the above.
Perhaps I should have specified that holding two harvesters the entire game doesn't exclude holding more than two harvesters for shorter periods of time, but I assumed that was implicit in the statement. Unless you're getting dominated, you will get enough pres to get the lifeforms you need to win a game as aliens in the current version of NS2. The deciding factor is how well those lifeforms perform in combat.
Even with just 2 harvesters, it takes ~7 minutes to get enough pres for Fades and ~14 minutes for Onii. That obviously isn't ideal, but if you're doing a decent job at taking down marine harvesters and preventing upgrades, there's a good chance it will be fast enough to win the game.
I like how you completely glossed over the fact that you claimed that "augmentation (...) is (...) not a game changer", which couldn't be farther from the truth.
I certainly don't agree with everything the OP said, but your critique missed the mark completely.
It isn't a game changer because its implied that almost every alien team will always get augmentation about 5 minutes in. Just like having a single harvester isn't a game changer, but if you don't you are pretty screwed.
sorry but this doesn't make sense dude
Of course it does. If augmentation ALWAYS goes off (which seems to be the case) then there is no way the fate of the game will hang in the balance of whether augmentation happens or does not happen.
The poster was implying that for augmentation to be an interesting (and balanced) mechanic, there needs to be games where alien structures/hives are taken out before augmentation is locked. At present, it is simply too easily obtained and is basically a given that augmentation is achieved.
On the other hand, if you're simply stating that "augmentation is a game changer" because the aliens get a significant boost when it goes off, thus changing tides of battle, that is true.
A lot of people would tell you the fate of the game does hang on that, despite the fact that it (almost) always happens
In that way, it is a game changer.
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Snip - If you can't engage with your fellow humans in a constructive and friendly manner your posts will be removed. Final warning.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
In that way, it is a game changer.
SNIPPED<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahem... The Oxford Dictionary defines "game changing" as completely changing the way that something is done, thought about, or made. Herpty derpty derp trololol trold.
Anyway, I was merely trying to point out how wrong the OP was when stating that the alien teams power scales only with energy because energy allowed faster augmentation, and augmentation was "the single most important thing in the game for Aliens". This is quite obviously not true, as I'm sure you would agree.