<!--quoteo(post=1940426:date=May 31 2012, 03:33 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do think maybe some of your opinions are tainted by the fact you are so close to the development team however. That's why I prefer to stay public so my opinons are clean and honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I've been very frustrated with a lot of decisions taken, and still disagree with a number of them. I wouldn't say my opinion is tainted because I'm slightly closer to the devs, but I don't know if this true for everyone, I still see lots of debating internally, so I'm not sure if people are holding back stuff or not because of a fear of "losing privileges", but it doesn't seem like it to me.
Also, it's not strictly a normal playtest like other games where you can hold back the release until it's polished and ready and semi-balanced because they release patches on a schedule, so they have to push a patch every two weeks, so they publish the state of whatever they've been working as-is and sometimes things are in a less than ideal state. The benefit of this is that a larger public gets to give feedback and that can help the devs make decisions about changes, too. I'm not trying to justify some of the changes, because we probably raise concerns before it even hits the public, but sometimes it has to hit the public before they want to change it... and that's how it is right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1940430:date=May 31 2012, 08:54 AM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ May 31 2012, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mean to stir anything up here, but in regard to this part of your post--AFAIK this is impossible, because with celerity the speed drops down to normal almost immediately when you either a. get hit or b. attack. UWE said that it was meant to help only outside of combat, so I guess this is what they meant.
The sudden stops do feel a bit abrupt though, it would be nice if we could scale the slowdown with the amount of damage that is dealt to the alien. E.g. doing 30% damage to the skulk's hp slows him down 30%, like the bullets are counteracting his inertia. This would make weaker aliens easier to slow down, as well. It's like I'm reproducing physics here! :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
K. Lol join up in a pub with us this week we'll see about that ;)
I'm sure you can probably be more effective as a skulk with it, but what I'm saying is that it's not like you have a free pass to be super-skulk. The speed wears off after the first bullet hits you or you do the first bite, so your advantage only lasts that long--until you can build up speed again.
<!--quoteo(post=1940359:date=May 31 2012, 10:26 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've put probably 10's of hours into purely just practicing skulk jumping. It's in the hundreds if you include the amount I practiced while in real games. All that practice and dedication I put in just got flushed down the toilit by the developers.
EDIT: Okay yeah that was a little rage heavy but it really did frustrate me. I know things are going to be tweaked to be better in coming builds but like garfu said... it really is a mystery how this made it through playtesting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<strike>Well that's exactly why I don't really practice movement yet...we all know that nothing is final.
It's not really the dev's fault when beta-testers take every change too serious. Such as when one patch is not well balanced...we went through that many times. 209 is not god's word. They just wanted to give us a first impression of celerity and ideas on how the skulk general movement could be nerfed.
Time showed that they notice that kind of stuff and work on it. Feedback is helpful, but 'it really is a mystery how this made it through playtesting'? It did not make it through, we all are testing it right now. Say thanks for the opportunity ;)</strike>
EDIT: Ok forget that, I think the thread has enough of it ;)
I'd prefer a blanket speed increase but the idea of tying celerity-boost to HP is an interesting idea if the blanket speed is that disliked. Also, I think the skulk changes in this patch are in the right direction.
<!--quoteo(post=1940376:date=May 31 2012, 03:42 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I've put probably 10's of hours into purely just practicing skulk jumping. It's in the hundreds if you include the amount I practiced while in real games. All that practice and dedication I put in just got flushed down the toilit by the developers and I for one am extremely enraged. [color="#FF8C00"]<u><b>I literally cannot express how angry I am and how much of my life and time I wasted on something that doesn't even matter anymore.</b></u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have some bad news for you...
If you think you were not wasting your life by practicing jumping in a videogame for hundreds of hours then...
No one will ever pay you lots of money for perfecting Natural Selection.
This is why I don't understand why there are people playing NS2 "competitively." It's a constantly changing Alpha and it's been broken 90% of the time thus far. If you want serious competitive play just wait until finished product. Even I feel like not playing until its finished cuz its all broken anyway right now.
Sorry .ADHd I just had to point out this ridiculously ironic statement of yours it made me laugh, so thanks for making me smile today.
This is demotivational poster material right here.
I agree with you the skulk movement is bad right now. REALLY bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1940359:date=May 31 2012, 02:26 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it really is a mystery how this made it through playtesting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>I need to be nicer and more open minded. I know nothing about the Playtesters, actually.</b>
Not all are bad. Iron Horse is nice. But many (probably most) of them are playtesters BECAUSE they are fanboys. And I think people like you and me might even be playing the game more than they do, but that is aside from my major point which is a lot of them do not criticize like we do, they just accept everything. That's why these forums are bad for people who are upset with the game -- they get attacked a lot.
Also we are pretty much playtesters. They just sort of throw random ideas at the wall and wait for community feedback. At least that's what it looks like. How else could that menu have made it into the last patch?
<!--quoteo(post=1940526:date=May 31 2012, 08:16 PM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 31 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>I need to be nicer and more open minded. I know nothing about the Playtesters, actually.</b>
Not all are bad. Iron Horse is nice. But many (probably most) of them are playtesters BECAUSE they are fanboys. And I think people like you and me might even be playing the game more than they do, but that is aside from my major point which is a lot of them do not criticize like we do, they just accept everything. That's why these forums are bad for people who are upset with the game -- they get attacked a lot.
Also we are pretty much playtesters. They just sort of throw random ideas at the wall and wait for community feedback. At least that's what it looks like. How else could that menu have made it into the last patch?
Just finish the game please!!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have a pretty nice insight of the playtester group. But you are obviously wrong, we are all mindless robots.
<!--quoteo(post=1940540:date=May 31 2012, 01:50 PM:name=jbaker8935)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jbaker8935 @ May 31 2012, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->calling people Fanboys is inflammatory & unnecessary. I generally reserve that word for certain Apple, Xbox 360 & PS/3 owners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed; let's get off the fanboy topic instead of more flaming and trolling :L I need to play more of this build; I've been running around too much as a Skulk with its new ability. Still the super-charged jumps when you go from a wall to a flat surface is weird.
<!--quoteo(post=1940389:date=May 31 2012, 12:48 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have 120 hours logged in NS2 in the last 2 weeks (With no afk time)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You spend about 100 hours NOT playing NS2 in two weeks? and there is more hours on other games you play...
My maths: 14 x 24 = 336 - (14 x 8) = 224 - 120 = 104
and then, considering the fact that you might go to school: 104 - 60 = 44. You spend 44 hours NOT playing NS2, impressive... I guess.
I'm surprised so many people are still missing the point of this being a beta. Granted, betas don't warrant major changes in every game, but anyone who has been around for even just a few months should know that in NS 2 a lot of things are still very fluid, including some of the 'core fundamentals' this game is arguably based upon. Skulk movement didn't seem much worse to me personally, nor did it seem incredibly different. I think it's obvious that celerity needs some tweaking, though I do hope they stick with the concept, changing it to a flat 10 something procent movement buff would be incredibly dull.
Anyway, hold your horses, and stick with providing constructive feedback on what works and what doesn't, the NS 2 devs are incredibly receptive of good ideas and constructive feedback, it would be a real shame if a few bad apples ended up ruining that unique community - dev interaction for the rest of us.
There's two ways to go about providing feedback, doing it the right way doesn't in any way make you 'a fanboy'.
First off let me say thank you to everyone that is posting in this thread, especially the ones that are keeping it polite and offering suggestions and backing their opinions up with facts. Please understand again everyone this is a BETA and with each build comes slight changes or re-workings of different things in the game. I for one am very happy with a lot of the changes to the skulk, but that doesnt mean its right. Please take the time to play it over the weekend and then come back and provide more detail than I DONT LIKE IT or WTF?!?!
As said in other threads the playtesters do not make any decisions on the game and there are times when we disagree on changes going into the build but its UWE's game and they bring those changes to you to get a larger playing field to test said changes and really see how they work. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt, so please do not lump any one group into a negative response as thats not the way it works.
[quote name='WasabiOne' date='May 31 2012, 02:32 PM' post='1940567'] Please understand again everyone this is a BETA and with each build comes slight changes or re-workings of different things in the game.
I don't think anyone here doesn't understand that this is a beta wasabi. And the changes in this build are not really <i>slight</i> or re-worked in regards to the skulk. What happened was a revert like I said. The skulk has devolved and for the worse. The movement is absolutely abysmal and feels buggy in my eyes. We also gave clear cut examples and valid arguments for why the changes are bad... well at least I tried to.
My fragrate against skulks has skyrocketed in the last build. Skulk movement is incredibly slow and predictable. Everytime I come across skulks now I think "Lol look at this slow moving noob he doesn't even know how to wallhop and evade".
Then I realize that you really can't do that anymore and even if you try it doesn't benefit you at all anymore. The whole running and jumping off ceilings with skulks is now a giant gimmick. There was a real and FUN gameplay mechanic in place before that offered a skillful and creative approaches to skulk combat. Now skulk is boring to play and feels cumbersome and it feels like an all around nerf to a class that felt amazing to play as until now. The skulk is utterly terrible and leap should be default with the skulk now to make it no a useless paperweight. Me and another guy had an armory outside the aliens hive last night and went 20-0 before dying due to the abysmal skulk movment when people were leaving their spawn. I was literally laughing at how bad it was.
Keep testing this guys... skulk vs marine combat is essential to be balanced correctly. Right now skulks are pretty much just sitting ducks now. GG
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Skulk movement was fluid and polished in 208. Now it's gone back to kindergarten status and feels slow and robotic. Not smooth at all. If you gave brand new players both builds im sure anyone would prefer the build 208 movement.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
It's this game elitists which seem to have a problem with it. I used to fear coming across a proficient wall jumper skulk. It was a class to be feared. Now it is LAUGHABLE. It's really sad to be honest. Other people who are good shots are going to see their fragrates go up with marines and get owned with their skulks.
The aircontrol is much better in b209. Back in b208, the air control allowed unskilled skulks to simply 180 anytime they overshot their opponent. Now skulks have to choose between spamming jump for evasive maneuvers or staying on the ground to get hits on marines.
To juke or directly engage marines, it's actually a choice now instead of mashing jump and doing both.
No comment yet on the wall jumping for this build, though. I think you can have effective wall jumping with out the ridiculousness of skulk air control as you saw in b208.
<!--quoteo(post=1940643:date=May 31 2012, 06:33 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ May 31 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The aircontrol is much better in b209. Back in b208, the air control allowed unskilled skulks to simply 180 anytime they overshot their opponent. Now skulks have to choose between spamming jump for evasive maneuvers or staying on the ground to get hits on marines.
To juke or directly engage marines, it's actually a choice now instead of mashing jump and doing both.
No comment yet on the wall jumping for this build, though. I think you can have effective wall jumping with out the ridiculousness of skulk air control as you saw in b208.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nerfing the aircontrol doesn't bother me at all to be honest. It needed to be tweaked because it was buggy. I will say air control nerf is fine and currently you still have a good amount of air control.
It was the nerf to walljump that has effectively killed the skulk class. Now we are going to be seeing a pandemic of "ground skulks" who move slow and are incredibly easy to hit. Nobody is going to wall jump if it does <u><i>nothing</i></u>.
I know what the devs did they nerfed the accel you get from jumping off walls so that you need about 4 wallhops before you gain any speed worth mentioning. How is this intuitive gameplay design?
How is a new player going to know to perfectly time 4 jumps to get a speed boost? It makes 0 sense and is a gigantic bandaid to a whole different problem. <u>SKULKS DON'T LOSE SPEED WHEN BUNNYHOPPING ON THE GROUND.</u> I am <i>amazed</i> that this problem hadn't been solved earlier.
This has ALWAYS been the main issue of why skulks can get and retain so much speed. It was a bug not to penalize for hitting the ground... but I guess that wasn't clear? The easy fix it to make it so jumping more than once on the ground penalizes you. This is a nobrainer UWE.
<!--quoteo(post=1940646:date=May 31 2012, 11:49 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...Herpy derp derp... It was a bug not to penalize for hitting the ground... but I guess that wasn't clear? The easy fix it to make it so jumping more than once on the ground penalizes you. This is a nobrainer UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <Not sure if serious>
<!--quoteo(post=1940646:date=May 31 2012, 07:49 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nerfing the aircontrol doesn't bother me at all to be honest. It needed to be tweaked because it was buggy. I will say air control nerf is fine and currently you still have a good amount of air control.
It was the nerf to walljump that has effectively killed the skulk class. Now we are going to be seeing a pandemic of "ground skulks" who move slow and are incredibly easy to hit. Nobody is going to wall jump if it does <u><i>nothing</i></u>.
I know what the devs did they nerfed the accel you get from jumping off walls so that you need about 4 wallhops before you gain any speed worth mentioning. How is this intuitive gameplay design?
How is a new player going to know to perfectly time 4 jumps to get a speed boost? It makes 0 sense and is a gigantic bandaid to a whole different problem. SKULKS DON'T LOSE SPEED WHEN BUNNYHOPPING ON THE GROUND.
This has ALWAYS been the main issue of why skulks can get and retain so much speed. It was a bug not to penalize for hitting the ground... but I guess that wasn't clear? The easy fix it to make it so jumping more than once on the ground penalizes you. This is a nobrainer UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The wall jump was definitely nerfed, but it's not useless. I think it would be more apparent how important wall jumping is if celerity wasn't so laughably fast now.
I'm testing the wall jumping and I typically gain ~+1speed off every decent wall jump. I typically lose ~0-0.5 speed in between wall jumps depending on how well I execute my jumps. I usually go wall -> ground -> wall -> ground. I can get up to 10 speed pretty easily off of just 3 or 4 jumps. The base skulk runspeed is 7, so that's still an increase of ~42% speed off just a couple jumps. If I execute well, I can reach speeds of 11+ though they are not typically sustained. I haven't practiced this wall jumping at all.
It's definitely not as easy to get up to the crazy 15+ speeds that you saw in b208, but you can still get a significant speed advantage from wall jumping. I'll refrain on commenting about whether you gain enough from it because I haven't given it enough consideration to make a reasonable statement on that.
<!--quoteo(post=1940649:date=May 31 2012, 07:04 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ May 31 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The wall jump was definitely nerfed, but it's not useless. I think it would be more apparent how important wall jumping is if celerity wasn't so laughably fast now.
I'm testing the wall jumping and I typically gain ~+1speed off every decent wall jump. I typically lose ~0-0.5 speed in between wall jumps depending on how well I execute my jumps. I usually go wall -> ground -> wall -> ground. I can get up to 10 speed pretty easily off of just 3 or 4 jumps. The base skulk runspeed is 7, so that's still an increase of ~42% speed off just a couple jumps. If I execute well, I can reach speeds of 11+ though they are not typically sustained. I haven't practiced this wall jumping at all.
It's definitely not as easy to get up to the crazy 15+ speeds that you saw in b208, but you can still get a significant speed advantage from wall jumping. I'll refrain on commenting about whether you gain enough from it because I haven't given it enough consideration to make a reasonable statement on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but from my perspective the walljump is an immediate and ambush style tactic. You shouldn't have to build the speed up over time since that is counter-intuitive to what the walljump is trying to achieve. I agree celerity is pretty rediculous and will probably need months of tweaking like wallhopping did.
The speed boost you get should be substantial from 1 wallhop if timed and executed properly (It wasn't easy to do anyway). You need to get that air and acceleration from walljump to make it useful at all. If you need 4 wallhops to get noticeable speed boost it's not going to be clear to players that the mechanic is in place. Also making walljump slowly build up speed over time is simply just a more tedious version of celerity. Give wallhop back its speedboost that was present in 208 and lower the overall velocity that can be gained from walljumps so it doesn't crosspaths with celerity. It took me months just to master MOVING with the skulk along walls let alone doing complex and well timed walljumps. The devs took a step back here and are shooting themselves in the foot.
And player... I wasn't being sarcastic at all. A few people on my team all agreed that retaining your speed while jumping on the ground is a terrible gameplay mechanic when the speed should be retained and gained from using proficient wallhops.
Also GORGEous, you are not a new player by any means and are skilled at this game. You will understand how to gain speed and etc but think of the perspective from new players... they will jump off walls and notice no benefit. This isn't intuitive game design and could be balanced a more intuitive way... like by penalizing players for touching the ground more than once after a wallhop. Doesn't that make sense scientifically as well? It just makes sense in every way if you ask me and would be intuitive and understandable to new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1940651:date=May 31 2012, 07:11 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 31 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't that make sense scientifically as well? It just makes sense in every way if you ask me and would be intuitive and understandable to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No ADHD. Argue game balance all you want, but leave science out of this; it has absolutely nothing to do with wall-jumping, how NS2 handles momentum, or how you're proposing it should.
<!--quoteo(post=1940651:date=Jun 1 2012, 12:11 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 1 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they will jump off walls and notice no benefit. This isn't intuitive game design and could be balanced a more intuitive way... like by penalizing players for touching the ground more than once after a wallhop. Doesn't that make sense scientifically as well? It just makes sense in every way if you ask me and would be intuitive and understandable to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What the ###### am I reading...
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1940648:date=Jun 1 2012, 01:04 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jun 1 2012, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><Not sure if serious><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been thinking that pretty much every time I see him post. He's either an extremely clever troll or the most awkward person on the planet.
Regardless, it's good fun watching the spectacle unfold.
devs should actually make skulks gain speed from jumping off the floor next build or whatever it was that was unscientific. Seems like it'll make for some more good reading post build.
My first impression of the air control is that it feels pretty clunky. It's like it has to "lock on" to the fact that I'm changing directions. If I turn too quickly, my direction of movement doesn't change. In a strange way, the 209 air control feels almost the reverse of NS1 air control (In NS1, players can only adjust their air velocity if their impulse direction is at least 90 degrees away from their current movement direction.
Skulk movement has been messed up since forever. The fact that you can leap and then spam jump to maintain a crazy speed is just ridiculous. Walljump is not a skill based movement at all. Making the same mechanic more difficult won't make it "skill based" either. It's just a way to increase speed, that is it. How do you get better at walljump? Build up speed outside the room and then move at crazy speeds inside to kill the marines? Ridiculous. How do you compete against players with good aim with wallhop? Right now, you just try and climb walls and move in crazy random directions (very little skill required) The only reason it works right now is because climbing the walls and jumping around like crazy makes the skulk animations spaz out and hard to predict and the hit reg becomes questionable. That and the fact that most of the marine weapons shoot rubber bullets.
Comments
Well, I've been very frustrated with a lot of decisions taken, and still disagree with a number of them. I wouldn't say my opinion is tainted because I'm slightly closer to the devs, but I don't know if this true for everyone, I still see lots of debating internally, so I'm not sure if people are holding back stuff or not because of a fear of "losing privileges", but it doesn't seem like it to me.
Also, it's not strictly a normal playtest like other games where you can hold back the release until it's polished and ready and semi-balanced because they release patches on a schedule, so they have to push a patch every two weeks, so they publish the state of whatever they've been working as-is and sometimes things are in a less than ideal state. The benefit of this is that a larger public gets to give feedback and that can help the devs make decisions about changes, too. I'm not trying to justify some of the changes, because we probably raise concerns before it even hits the public, but sometimes it has to hit the public before they want to change it... and that's how it is right now.
The sudden stops do feel a bit abrupt though, it would be nice if we could scale the slowdown with the amount of damage that is dealt to the alien. E.g. doing 30% damage to the skulk's hp slows him down 30%, like the bullets are counteracting his inertia. This would make weaker aliens easier to slow down, as well. It's like I'm reproducing physics here! :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
K. Lol join up in a pub with us this week we'll see about that ;)
EDIT: Okay yeah that was a little rage heavy but it really did frustrate me. I know things are going to be tweaked to be better in coming builds but like garfu said... it really is a mystery how this made it through playtesting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<strike>Well that's exactly why I don't really practice movement yet...we all know that nothing is final.
It's not really the dev's fault when beta-testers take every change too serious. Such as when one patch is not well balanced...we went through that many times. 209 is not god's word. They just wanted to give us a first impression of celerity and ideas on how the skulk general movement could be nerfed.
Time showed that they notice that kind of stuff and work on it. Feedback is helpful, but 'it really is a mystery how this made it through playtesting'? It did not make it through, we all are testing it right now. Say thanks for the opportunity ;)</strike>
EDIT: Ok forget that, I think the thread has enough of it ;)
I have some bad news for you...
If you think you were not wasting your life by practicing jumping in a videogame for hundreds of hours then...
No one will ever pay you lots of money for perfecting Natural Selection.
This is why I don't understand why there are people playing NS2 "competitively." It's a constantly changing Alpha and it's been broken 90% of the time thus far. If you want serious competitive play just wait until finished product. Even I feel like not playing until its finished cuz its all broken anyway right now.
Sorry .ADHd I just had to point out this ridiculously ironic statement of yours it made me laugh, so thanks for making me smile today.
This is demotivational poster material right here.
I agree with you the skulk movement is bad right now. REALLY bad.
<b>I need to be nicer and more open minded. I know nothing about the Playtesters, actually.</b>
Not all are bad. Iron Horse is nice. But many (probably most) of them are playtesters BECAUSE they are fanboys. And I think people like you and me might even be playing the game more than they do, but that is aside from my major point which is a lot of them do not criticize like we do, they just accept everything. That's why these forums are bad for people who are upset with the game -- they get attacked a lot.
Also we are pretty much playtesters. They just sort of throw random ideas at the wall and wait for community feedback. At least that's what it looks like. How else could that menu have made it into the last patch?
Just finish the game please!!!!!!!
Not all are bad. Iron Horse is nice. But many (probably most) of them are playtesters BECAUSE they are fanboys. And I think people like you and me might even be playing the game more than they do, but that is aside from my major point which is a lot of them do not criticize like we do, they just accept everything. That's why these forums are bad for people who are upset with the game -- they get attacked a lot.
Also we are pretty much playtesters. They just sort of throw random ideas at the wall and wait for community feedback. At least that's what it looks like. How else could that menu have made it into the last patch?
Just finish the game please!!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a pretty nice insight of the playtester group. But you are obviously wrong, we are all mindless robots.
I think I hurt his feelings.
Actually, I was repeating what former playtesters are telling me, so it must be true to some extent.
Indeed; let's get off the fanboy topic instead of more flaming and trolling :L
I need to play more of this build; I've been running around too much as a Skulk with its new ability. Still the super-charged jumps when you go from a wall to a flat surface is weird.
You spend about 100 hours NOT playing NS2 in two weeks?
and there is more hours on other games you play...
My maths: 14 x 24 = 336 - (14 x 8) = 224 - 120 = 104
and then, considering the fact that you might go to school: 104 - 60 = 44. You spend 44 hours NOT playing NS2, impressive... I guess.
Anyway, hold your horses, and stick with providing constructive feedback on what works and what doesn't, the NS 2 devs are incredibly receptive of good ideas and constructive feedback, it would be a real shame if a few bad apples ended up ruining that unique community - dev interaction for the rest of us.
There's two ways to go about providing feedback, doing it the right way doesn't in any way make you 'a fanboy'.
As said in other threads the playtesters do not make any decisions on the game and there are times when we disagree on changes going into the build but its UWE's game and they bring those changes to you to get a larger playing field to test said changes and really see how they work. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt, so please do not lump any one group into a negative response as thats not the way it works.
Please understand again everyone this is a BETA and with each build comes slight changes or re-workings of different things in the game.
I don't think anyone here doesn't understand that this is a beta wasabi. And the changes in this build are not really <i>slight</i> or re-worked in regards to the skulk. What happened was a revert like I said. The skulk has devolved and for the worse. The movement is absolutely abysmal and feels buggy in my eyes. We also gave clear cut examples and valid arguments for why the changes are bad... well at least I tried to.
My fragrate against skulks has skyrocketed in the last build. Skulk movement is incredibly slow and predictable. Everytime I come across skulks now I think "Lol look at this slow moving noob he doesn't even know how to wallhop and evade".
Then I realize that you really can't do that anymore and even if you try it doesn't benefit you at all anymore. The whole running and jumping off ceilings with skulks is now a giant gimmick. There was a real and FUN gameplay mechanic in place before that offered a skillful and creative approaches to skulk combat. Now skulk is boring to play and feels cumbersome and it feels like an all around nerf to a class that felt amazing to play as until now. The skulk is utterly terrible and leap should be default with the skulk now to make it no a useless paperweight. Me and another guy had an armory outside the aliens hive last night and went 20-0 before dying due to the abysmal skulk movment when people were leaving their spawn. I was literally laughing at how bad it was.
Keep testing this guys... skulk vs marine combat is essential to be balanced correctly. Right now skulks are pretty much just sitting ducks now. GG
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Skulk movement was fluid and polished in 208. Now it's gone back to kindergarten status and feels slow and robotic. Not smooth at all. If you gave brand new players both builds im sure anyone would prefer the build 208 movement.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
It's this game elitists which seem to have a problem with it. I used to fear coming across a proficient wall jumper skulk. It was a class to be feared. Now it is LAUGHABLE. It's really sad to be honest. Other people who are good shots are going to see their fragrates go up with marines and get owned with their skulks.
To juke or directly engage marines, it's actually a choice now instead of mashing jump and doing both.
No comment yet on the wall jumping for this build, though. I think you can have effective wall jumping with out the ridiculousness of skulk air control as you saw in b208.
To juke or directly engage marines, it's actually a choice now instead of mashing jump and doing both.
No comment yet on the wall jumping for this build, though. I think you can have effective wall jumping with out the ridiculousness of skulk air control as you saw in b208.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nerfing the aircontrol doesn't bother me at all to be honest. It needed to be tweaked because it was buggy. I will say air control nerf is fine and currently you still have a good amount of air control.
It was the nerf to walljump that has effectively killed the skulk class. Now we are going to be seeing a pandemic of "ground skulks" who move slow and are incredibly easy to hit. Nobody is going to wall jump if it does <u><i>nothing</i></u>.
I know what the devs did they nerfed the accel you get from jumping off walls so that you need about 4 wallhops before you gain any speed worth mentioning. How is this intuitive gameplay design?
How is a new player going to know to perfectly time 4 jumps to get a speed boost? It makes 0 sense and is a gigantic bandaid to a whole different problem. <u>SKULKS DON'T LOSE SPEED WHEN BUNNYHOPPING ON THE GROUND.</u> I am <i>amazed</i> that this problem hadn't been solved earlier.
This has ALWAYS been the main issue of why skulks can get and retain so much speed. It was a bug not to penalize for hitting the ground... but I guess that wasn't clear? The easy fix it to make it so jumping more than once on the ground penalizes you. This is a nobrainer UWE.
<Not sure if serious>
It was the nerf to walljump that has effectively killed the skulk class. Now we are going to be seeing a pandemic of "ground skulks" who move slow and are incredibly easy to hit. Nobody is going to wall jump if it does <u><i>nothing</i></u>.
I know what the devs did they nerfed the accel you get from jumping off walls so that you need about 4 wallhops before you gain any speed worth mentioning. How is this intuitive gameplay design?
How is a new player going to know to perfectly time 4 jumps to get a speed boost? It makes 0 sense and is a gigantic bandaid to a whole different problem. SKULKS DON'T LOSE SPEED WHEN BUNNYHOPPING ON THE GROUND.
This has ALWAYS been the main issue of why skulks can get and retain so much speed. It was a bug not to penalize for hitting the ground... but I guess that wasn't clear? The easy fix it to make it so jumping more than once on the ground penalizes you. This is a nobrainer UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The wall jump was definitely nerfed, but it's not useless. I think it would be more apparent how important wall jumping is if celerity wasn't so laughably fast now.
I'm testing the wall jumping and I typically gain ~+1speed off every decent wall jump. I typically lose ~0-0.5 speed in between wall jumps depending on how well I execute my jumps. I usually go wall -> ground -> wall -> ground. I can get up to 10 speed pretty easily off of just 3 or 4 jumps. The base skulk runspeed is 7, so that's still an increase of ~42% speed off just a couple jumps. If I execute well, I can reach speeds of 11+ though they are not typically sustained. I haven't practiced this wall jumping at all.
It's definitely not as easy to get up to the crazy 15+ speeds that you saw in b208, but you can still get a significant speed advantage from wall jumping. I'll refrain on commenting about whether you gain enough from it because I haven't given it enough consideration to make a reasonable statement on that.
I'm testing the wall jumping and I typically gain ~+1speed off every decent wall jump. I typically lose ~0-0.5 speed in between wall jumps depending on how well I execute my jumps. I usually go wall -> ground -> wall -> ground. I can get up to 10 speed pretty easily off of just 3 or 4 jumps. The base skulk runspeed is 7, so that's still an increase of ~42% speed off just a couple jumps. If I execute well, I can reach speeds of 11+ though they are not typically sustained. I haven't practiced this wall jumping at all.
It's definitely not as easy to get up to the crazy 15+ speeds that you saw in b208, but you can still get a significant speed advantage from wall jumping. I'll refrain on commenting about whether you gain enough from it because I haven't given it enough consideration to make a reasonable statement on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but from my perspective the walljump is an immediate and ambush style tactic. You shouldn't have to build the speed up over time since that is counter-intuitive to what the walljump is trying to achieve. I agree celerity is pretty rediculous and will probably need months of tweaking like wallhopping did.
The speed boost you get should be substantial from 1 wallhop if timed and executed properly (It wasn't easy to do anyway). You need to get that air and acceleration from walljump to make it useful at all. If you need 4 wallhops to get noticeable speed boost it's not going to be clear to players that the mechanic is in place. Also making walljump slowly build up speed over time is simply just a more tedious version of celerity. Give wallhop back its speedboost that was present in 208 and lower the overall velocity that can be gained from walljumps so it doesn't crosspaths with celerity. It took me months just to master MOVING with the skulk along walls let alone doing complex and well timed walljumps. The devs took a step back here and are shooting themselves in the foot.
And player... I wasn't being sarcastic at all. A few people on my team all agreed that retaining your speed while jumping on the ground is a terrible gameplay mechanic when the speed should be retained and gained from using proficient wallhops.
Also GORGEous, you are not a new player by any means and are skilled at this game. You will understand how to gain speed and etc but think of the perspective from new players... they will jump off walls and notice no benefit. This isn't intuitive game design and could be balanced a more intuitive way... like by penalizing players for touching the ground more than once after a wallhop. Doesn't that make sense scientifically as well? It just makes sense in every way if you ask me and would be intuitive and understandable to new players.
No ADHD. Argue game balance all you want, but leave science out of this; it has absolutely nothing to do with wall-jumping, how NS2 handles momentum, or how you're proposing it should.
What the ###### am I reading...
I've been thinking that pretty much every time I see him post. He's either an extremely clever troll or the most awkward person on the planet.
Regardless, it's good fun watching the spectacle unfold.