The problem with the Lerk for me is that bite involves a level of sacrifice. Obviously as a player it is your job to judge a situation.
But, for 30 res to risk being instantly shotgunned is an issue.
I'd say that either removing bite and keeping spikes, or dropping the rof massively but increasing damage and keeping hp and armour values higher would be better.
With spores it is a support class, now it is going to be getting umbra back. Why have an attack that basically puts the class on pa with the skulk and fade...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
With the reduced ROF in our Playtest today, i had the most fun i've ever had lerking.. and it really made me utilize sporing to obscure/cause chaos while i tactically picked targets to poison. Much less of a flying skulk, much more of a tactical harasser.
Good to hear ironhorse! I'd imagine projectile Umbra will help with the insta-shotgun-killed problem, which is bound to happen lategame (/marine lvl3 armor lvl3 weapons), too :) Will be nice to try it out! :)
<!--quoteo(post=1941028:date=Jun 2 2012, 10:38 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 2 2012, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the reduced ROF in our Playtest today, i had the most fun i've ever had lerking.. and it really made me utilize sporing to obscure/cause chaos while i tactically picked targets to poison. Much less of a flying skulk, much more of a tactical harasser.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm guessing that is why Charlie made a conscious decision to have bite being poisonous...
I.e. You are not flying in (as per current build) and biting until you kill a marine. But rather, sporing, flying in, biting once, and flying out.
I think this could have been done as a spike though... perhaps as a longer spike that you sort of 'joust' marines with. Flying into them at speed.
Skulk has bite, it would have been nicer to see a different sort of attack. Sort of like my feeling towards the 2nd attack on the Fade (I know it is changing) that it wasn't different, and therefore a bit unexciting.
How about switching it with spikes and limiting its poison DMG to a fix duration. DMG is ok if you compare with other Lifeforms and it is Light DMG not even normal.
So the kahm needs to deside between bite, blink or leap in the beginning and the Marines don't get smashed as soon as a Lerk is on the field in the first 2min.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
Lowering the ROF until the point where you have to rely on poison to do damage and flying in and out between bites is a sure-fire way to make the lerk completely useless in competitive play. Good comms drop meds nearly instantly.
Bite lerk worked in ns1 because the rof and damage were high enough that the lerk could kill a marine before the comm could react, while being fragile enough that you had to play extremely carefully. Amazing experience for good players, a frustrating waste of 30 res for new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1941321:date=Jun 3 2012, 06:58 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 3 2012, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lowering the ROF until the point where you have to rely on poison to do damage and flying in and out between bites is a sure-fire way to make the lerk completely useless in competitive play. Good comms drop meds nearly instantly.
Bite lerk worked in ns1 because the rof and damage were high enough that the lerk could kill a marine before the comm could react, while being fragile enough that you had to play extremely carefully. Amazing experience for good players, a frustrating waste of 30 res for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this post, the lerk requires burst damage to be able to fight in melee, otherwise its simply to risky to do versus skillful players. If the damage is going to be a dot type it would probably be better to add a mid range spike attack so it won't be a suicide run.
<!--quoteo(post=1941349:date=Jun 3 2012, 11:17 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Jun 3 2012, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this post, the lerk requires burst damage to be able to fight in melee, otherwise its simply to risky to do versus skillful players. If the damage is going to be a dot type it would probably be better to add a mid range spike attack so it won't be a suicide run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1941353:date=Jun 3 2012, 11:38 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 3 2012, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean like a <i>poison dart</i>?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Something like that might work. I would up vote anything that is viable and is fun for the game play. From experience I can say with confidence that dot damage won't work in melee range, the lerks will be owned by shotguns and high risk of being killed by lmg's(when the performance gets better).
The reason why I say mid range is because I think the devs want the lerks to be in the fight. Having mid range high damage dot might work very well mixed with spores. It would force extra med packs from the commander making the lerk a high priority target. I also feel like it fits the game to have aliens use close range attacks.
There is also 1 thing I would like to add, I think having spikes as a 2nd ability is not the right place. Having 2 ,,main attack types" will mean the better one will always be used. I would however see spikes be the tier 3 ability more viable. Because you can give him a huge upgrade in damage at that point. But that probably overlaps with ,,1 ability should never make another one obsolete". But it kinda does that already.
Lerks have too much tankiness/agility for all that combat effectiveness. Lerks should be harassers and supporters. Why can't we just have a higher energy cost alternative spore, preferably purple to indicate it's poisoned. And give spikes back as a main ability, there's no sense as having a melee ability as a primary attack.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1941321:date=Jun 3 2012, 03:58 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 3 2012, 03:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lowering the ROF until the point where you have to rely on poison to do damage and flying in and out between bites is a sure-fire way to make the lerk completely useless in competitive play. Good comms drop meds nearly instantly.
Bite lerk worked in ns1 because the rof and damage were high enough that the lerk could kill a marine before the comm could react, while being fragile enough that you had to play extremely carefully. Amazing experience for good players, a frustrating waste of 30 res for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh... I get what you are saying but I don't really see it like that. If a commander has to medpack a group of marines (its currently easy enough to spore and poison a smaller group of marines alone) it is negatively impacting their resources/economical decisions/strategy with energy being removed. I really like the direct impact you get to have on the enemy's economy besides RTs.
Besides this point, i feel like the lerk stands on it's own competitively even without it. Observe: <ul><li>Spores are support that ARE used competitively (had it used against me many times, and have used it personally many times)</li><li>Spike damage is amazingly effective for direct combat, moreso than ever, and these have always been used competitively as they were the default. Now theyre just better.</li><li>Umbra is a <b>major </b>asset to utilize late game and i bet we will see it overused, if anything, competitively.</li><li>So this leaves the bite, which considering my point earlier - and not the potential to kill a marine, which it can - it still has a very effective role.</li></ul> My 2 cents
<!--quoteo(post=1941367:date=Jun 4 2012, 04:22 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 4 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh... I get what you are saying but I don't really see it like that. If a commander has to medpack a group of marines (its currently easy enough to spore and poison a smaller group of marines alone) it is negatively impacting their resources/economical decisions/strategy with energy being removed. I really like the direct impact you get to have on the enemy's economy besides RTs.
Besides this point, i feel like the lerk stands on it's own competitively even without it. Observe: <ul><li>Spores are support that ARE used competitively (had it used against me many times, and have used it personally many times)</li><li>Spike damage is amazingly effective for direct combat, moreso than ever, and these have always been used competitively as they were the default. Now theyre just better.</li><li>Umbra is a <b>major </b>asset to utilize late game and i bet we will see it overused, if anything, competitively.</li><li>So this leaves the bite, which considering my point earlier - and not the potential to kill a marine, which it can - it still has a very effective role.</li></ul> My 2 cents<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no arguement for spores being good or anywhere on par with spike/bite on the high competitive level fana is talking about. Aim is just that good. It simply doesn't work and will not once shotguns are viable again and performance increases to allow better tracking (unless you're using it pre-emptively or as an escape mechanism).
I also dont think you can that the additional effect of poison bite over non-poison bite on overall marine commander economy is material. Far from it, CC energy is a cheap resource that has one necessary or primary use(med/ammo) and two strictly unecessary or secondary uses (nanoconstruct/shield). As fana has pointed out, commanders will med you regardless of whether a bite has poison or not and the opportunity cost does not come anywhere on par with keeping a marine alive in critical areas of the map. What are you going to do with that energy? nanoconstruct a phasegate in an area you now no longer control?
I agree with you that the lerk does stand on its own without it absolutely. I understand what you're saying, but i think the question should be "why do we need a slow rof poison bite that is gimp at a competitive level" and not "there is room for slow rof poison bite because lerk is also good without it".
Ironhorse was referring to 210 where they've stated they are removing energy and all things using energy atm will be converted to t-res or something to that effect..
Umbra is going to be incredibly broken unless the ability gets a slight revamp. Currently, umbra sticks on lifeforms for at least 5 seconds after they walk in it. Umbra needs to not stick on lifeforms and instead only block bullets where the umbra cloud is actually displaying.
Forward umbra is so powerful, I really hope it is fixed before put in the game. Otherwise we're just going to have another unplayable build.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1941367:date=Jun 4 2012, 07:22 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 4 2012, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh... I get what you are saying but I don't really see it like that. If a commander has to medpack a group of marines (its currently easy enough to spore and poison a smaller group of marines alone) it is negatively impacting their resources/economical decisions/strategy with energy being removed. I really like the direct impact you get to have on the enemy's economy besides RTs.
Besides this point, i feel like the lerk stands on it's own competitively even without it. Observe: <ul><li>Spores are support that ARE used competitively (had it used against me many times, and have used it personally many times)</li><li>Spike damage is amazingly effective for direct combat, moreso than ever, and these have always been used competitively as they were the default. Now theyre just better.</li><li>Umbra is a <b>major </b>asset to utilize late game and i bet we will see it overused, if anything, competitively.</li><li>So this leaves the bite, which considering my point earlier - and not the potential to kill a marine, which it can - it still has a very effective role.</li></ul> My 2 cents<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've played against you and I've played against your team, and frankly; you're not very good. Neither are 99% of the teams and players playing in the beta right now. Part of that is due to poor performance and part of that is simply because most of the players aren't skilled enough yet. Since Inversion folded, I can count the number of decent aimers currently playing the beta on less than one hand. I limit myself to saying "decent aimers", because compared to ns1, the skill level even amongst the best ns2 shots is poor (myself included).
With that said, it should be no surprise that some players use trailing spores competitively; it's the same reason players use it on pubs -- they don't get punished for it because marine skill is too low. I personally use it extremely rarely, as it's usually not worth the risk even against mediocre players, and I like to think I know a thing or two about lerking.
The impact of poison bite + trailing spores on marine economy will be negligible compared to that of projectile spores in ns1.
Admittedly, part the reason why I don't like low dps bite, trailing spores and rapidfire spikes, is based on what I expect from the lerk, the concept of the lerk if you will, and thus subjective. The problem is that all these abilities require the lerk to able to survive a lot of marine attacks, meaning it needs to have a lot of health/armor. The only way to make those abilities viable in an environment where it's possible to aim accurately at fast moving targets, and people have practiced enough to be able to do so, is to pump the health/armor up, probably somewhere between the current lerk hp/armor and fade hp/armor. Umbra is also going to have a similar effect, naturally. The end result of all this is that you have long, drawn out firefights instead of short, frantic battles. I much prefer the latter, but I suppose some might enjoy the former.
A problem that will remain with Lerk bite even when they've balanced it is that it makes the Lerk into a flying Skulk... What's the point of spikes if bite is too good? But when the devs nerf bite, players will prefer spikes (if researched), but then why have bite? The only way to break out of this circle is to make bite a lot different from spikes. The "vampiric" bite effect is a good idea, but all it does is damage (initial and over time, if there doesn't happen to be a med pack lying around). I think bite aside from the actual bite damage should make the affected target more susceptible to other forms of damage and show up in the Alien vision for a given time.
Fly in, bite, spore a bit and fly away, kill from a distance with spikes. Or fly in, bite the (soon-to-come) guy with the exo and grenade launcher destroying your hive, fly away and let the Skulks swarm him. Like a reverse nano-shield.
<!--quoteo(post=1941406:date=Jun 4 2012, 02:16 PM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Jun 4 2012, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A problem that will remain with Lerk bite even when they've balanced it is that it makes the Lerk into a flying Skulk...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is something that people keep repeating over and over again and I never really want to get it. Doesn't it make a big enough difference that one is a free disposable lifeform that trades 1:1 with marines whenever possible and the other is a fragile, expensive and supposedly essential support unit?
For example in NS1 I'm most comfortable with skulk and by far the least comfortable with lerk of all the roles you've got in the game. That's how different these two lifeforms are in NS1 DESPITE having very similar bite attacks.
That's true (and Fades are much like Skulks in several ways too), but that wasn't really my point. My point is that players are going to use the direct damage attack that does the most damage, making the less effective attack superfluous. The devs need to either remove one of the attacks or make them very different from each other, giving them entirely different uses.
So if Lerks are flying skulks.. then: Fades are blinking Skulks Oni are giant Skulks ..as they all attack in melee? I don't get how people even compare Lerks and Skulks, thinking they are similar.
Because they start to feel the same, or at least they do in the latest version. Both are the same size, same sort of health and armour and both bite...
<!--quoteo(post=1941426:date=Jun 5 2012, 01:55 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 5 2012, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because they start to feel the same, or at least they do in the latest version. Both are the same size, same sort of health and armour and both bite...
It feels like the same role when playing ingame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree due to pres differences, limited skulk air control and other movement factors. Skulk and lerk play quite differently.
We could rename fade swipe to 'bite' and even change the first person animation to reflect it. Does this result in 'blinking skulks'? No, fade and skulk play differently as do lerks and skulks.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
Just to get this out there: The current bite in 209 is a little broken due to the bug the Dragon posted. It's actually dealing the base damage that it was set at as default skulk bite and not registering the change in bite damage.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1941373:date=Jun 4 2012, 03:03 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 4 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Far from it, CC energy is a cheap resource that has one necessary or primary use(med/ammo)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1941378:date=Jun 4 2012, 03:48 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jun 4 2012, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ironhorse was referring to 210 where they've stated they are removing energy and all things using energy atm will be converted to t-res or something to that effect..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^ It creates this amazing tradeoff, imo, that is more typical in RTS games of support OR expansion/tech.
Regarding spores though: i believe when the lerk speed is increased when performance gets better, spores will be more viable as you'll be less of a track-able target. (i also call for spores to originate ahead of the lerk model as the first person view demonstrates, obscuring it from below.)
@Fana i dont think long drawn out fights will occur when combating a "Harasser" class who is not supposed to expose themselves too much /too long. Especially, as you noted, people's skill and performance will increase, making the lerk more and more fragile. Also, i feel your expected use of sporing is limited, as you aren't accounting for the many applications of sporing being used when the enemy cant even see a lerk, like inside a bottleneck / chokepoint / entrance to a hive, where it serves a great purpose of wearing down the enemy - not to mention using it as an escape tactic to both obscure and hurt your enemy behind you in a squidlike fashion. None of these uses are subject to the level of exposure that would make the so called fana aimingâ„¢ such a threat to us inexperienced ones. Even if it were not used offensively, it still can be used for area denial.
<!--quoteo(post=1941506:date=Jun 4 2012, 06:13 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 4 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ It creates this amazing tradeoff, imo, that is more typical in RTS games of support OR expansion/tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So all previous energy consuming abilities use TRES now?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
<strike>Sorry outlaw i can only confirm what the progress tracker says, "Removed energy" "Energy Experiments" </strike> See mendasp's response below :) I will add that i was weary of this at first but now think its the better route after playing with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1941510:date=Jun 4 2012, 07:38 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 4 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So all previous energy consuming abilities use TRES now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if this is the case then I hope power nodes cost Tres to repair/add a new one.
<!--quoteo(post=1941510:date=Jun 5 2012, 01:38 AM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 5 2012, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So all previous energy consuming abilities use TRES now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. This was said in the cast this past weekend, btw, so it's public information. It could still change before it gets to the public, it depends if the devs are satisfied with it or not.
Oh well thats a bit ######, I'm sure it works out and the games still fun but, uhm, no energy?
Energy made so much sense, Crag A <> Crag B, but now both are powered by Tres? So Tres for cysts? After they only just, finally, became free?
Am I the only one who thinks this is a disaster of mind wateringly epic proportions?
I guess not, its just: Med packs from Armoury energy, Nano from CC energy, Bombard from whip energy (? er is that right?) .... All brilliant ideas that took some 100 builds to polish, and now, BLAM, back to Tres?
<!--quoteo(post=1941556:date=Jun 5 2012, 06:45 AM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jun 5 2012, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh well thats a bit ######, I'm sure it works out and the games still fun but, uhm, no energy?
Energy made so much sense, Crag A <> Crag B, but now both are powered by Tres? So Tres for cysts? After they only just, finally, became free?
Am I the only one who thinks this is a disaster of mind wateringly epic proportions?
I guess not, its just: Med packs from Armoury energy, Nano from CC energy, Bombard from whip energy (? er is that right?) .... All brilliant ideas that took some 100 builds to polish, and now, BLAM, back to Tres?
Seems a step back for both Commander and Kham.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, I really think it is worth a try. Also the com got pRes that may be used for Nano, Med and Ammo. You got so much more options with one res-pool less. Think of the SG-rush in NS1, where you had a tradeoff because it was costing tRes to start such an attack. Having more options on one or two res-pools (pRes, tRes) gets you suddenly much more tactical options and decisions to take.
Now you really have to decide if you tech or build economy. If the weapons the com can buy go to tRes, you even have the option to decide for pushing out an attack. The pRes of the com would only be used for support abilities. It's a much clearer design.
Energy was never such a good idea. It was difficult to look at. (You had to find and click every building to know how much energy it had left.) and as I said, it introduced a third res-pool that breaks down the options you have and the decisions you have to make.
Often there was the argument, that the energy was a way to implement a cooldown for abilities. But really, even C&C1 has a better and more intuitive cool-down system with just a gray scaled clock running on the button of the ability when the cooldown is active. This is much more intuitive than looking at numbers on different buildings that you all have to select one by one. If you want the possibility of more than one use before the cooldown kicks in, you can simply display a number on the ability button for the uses left.
The next argument was, that you could increase the number of uses from abilities by building more of the responsible buildings. But this is not contradicted by a normal cool-down. For example you could display a passive ability "button" on the obs that says in the tooltip "+3 max. available scans". Such unclickable "buttons" for passive abilities are already in on the alien side. On top of that you could even introduce upgrades, that increase the max. uses for single abilities. Make this upgrades indefinite and you have a late game res sink. Or how about an upgrade that reduce the duration of the cooldown slightly?
I simply can't see what a third res-pool adds to the game.
Comments
But, for 30 res to risk being instantly shotgunned is an issue.
I'd say that either removing bite and keeping spikes, or dropping the rof massively but increasing damage and keeping hp and armour values higher would be better.
With spores it is a support class, now it is going to be getting umbra back. Why have an attack that basically puts the class on pa with the skulk and fade...
I'd imagine projectile Umbra will help with the insta-shotgun-killed problem, which is bound to happen lategame (/marine lvl3 armor lvl3 weapons), too :) Will be nice to try it out! :)
I'm guessing that is why Charlie made a conscious decision to have bite being poisonous...
I.e. You are not flying in (as per current build) and biting until you kill a marine. But rather, sporing, flying in, biting once, and flying out.
I think this could have been done as a spike though... perhaps as a longer spike that you sort of 'joust' marines with. Flying into them at speed.
Skulk has bite, it would have been nicer to see a different sort of attack. Sort of like my feeling towards the 2nd attack on the Fade (I know it is changing) that it wasn't different, and therefore a bit unexciting.
DMG is ok if you compare with other Lifeforms and it is Light DMG not even normal.
So the kahm needs to deside between bite, blink or leap in the beginning and the Marines don't get smashed as soon as a Lerk is on the field in the first 2min.
Bite lerk worked in ns1 because the rof and damage were high enough that the lerk could kill a marine before the comm could react, while being fragile enough that you had to play extremely carefully. Amazing experience for good players, a frustrating waste of 30 res for new players.
Bite lerk worked in ns1 because the rof and damage were high enough that the lerk could kill a marine before the comm could react, while being fragile enough that you had to play extremely carefully. Amazing experience for good players, a frustrating waste of 30 res for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this post, the lerk requires burst damage to be able to fight in melee, otherwise its simply to risky to do versus skillful players. If the damage is going to be a dot type it would probably be better to add a mid range spike attack so it won't be a suicide run.
You mean like a <i>poison dart</i>?
Something like that might work. I would up vote anything that is viable and is fun for the game play. From experience I can say with confidence that dot damage won't work in melee range, the lerks will be owned by shotguns and high risk of being killed by lmg's(when the performance gets better).
The reason why I say mid range is because I think the devs want the lerks to be in the fight. Having mid range high damage dot might work very well mixed with spores. It would force extra med packs from the commander making the lerk a high priority target.
I also feel like it fits the game to have aliens use close range attacks.
There is also 1 thing I would like to add, I think having spikes as a 2nd ability is not the right place. Having 2 ,,main attack types" will mean the better one will always be used. I would however see spikes be the tier 3 ability more viable. Because you can give him a huge upgrade in damage at that point. But that probably overlaps with ,,1 ability should never make another one obsolete". But it kinda does that already.
Bite lerk worked in ns1 because the rof and damage were high enough that the lerk could kill a marine before the comm could react, while being fragile enough that you had to play extremely carefully. Amazing experience for good players, a frustrating waste of 30 res for new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh... I get what you are saying but I don't really see it like that.
If a commander has to medpack a group of marines (its currently easy enough to spore and poison a smaller group of marines alone) it is negatively impacting their resources/economical decisions/strategy with energy being removed. I really like the direct impact you get to have on the enemy's economy besides RTs.
Besides this point, i feel like the lerk stands on it's own competitively even without it.
Observe:
<ul><li>Spores are support that ARE used competitively (had it used against me many times, and have used it personally many times)</li><li>Spike damage is amazingly effective for direct combat, moreso than ever, and these have always been used competitively as they were the default. Now theyre just better.</li><li>Umbra is a <b>major </b>asset to utilize late game and i bet we will see it overused, if anything, competitively.</li><li>So this leaves the bite, which considering my point earlier - and not the potential to kill a marine, which it can - it still has a very effective role.</li></ul>
My 2 cents
If a commander has to medpack a group of marines (its currently easy enough to spore and poison a smaller group of marines alone) it is negatively impacting their resources/economical decisions/strategy with energy being removed. I really like the direct impact you get to have on the enemy's economy besides RTs.
Besides this point, i feel like the lerk stands on it's own competitively even without it.
Observe:
<ul><li>Spores are support that ARE used competitively (had it used against me many times, and have used it personally many times)</li><li>Spike damage is amazingly effective for direct combat, moreso than ever, and these have always been used competitively as they were the default. Now theyre just better.</li><li>Umbra is a <b>major </b>asset to utilize late game and i bet we will see it overused, if anything, competitively.</li><li>So this leaves the bite, which considering my point earlier - and not the potential to kill a marine, which it can - it still has a very effective role.</li></ul>
My 2 cents<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no arguement for spores being good or anywhere on par with spike/bite on the high competitive level fana is talking about. Aim is just that good. It simply doesn't work and will not once shotguns are viable again and performance increases to allow better tracking (unless you're using it pre-emptively or as an escape mechanism).
I also dont think you can that the additional effect of poison bite over non-poison bite on overall marine commander economy is material. Far from it, CC energy is a cheap resource that has one necessary or primary use(med/ammo) and two strictly unecessary or secondary uses (nanoconstruct/shield). As fana has pointed out, commanders will med you regardless of whether a bite has poison or not and the opportunity cost does not come anywhere on par with keeping a marine alive in critical areas of the map. What are you going to do with that energy? nanoconstruct a phasegate in an area you now no longer control?
I agree with you that the lerk does stand on its own without it absolutely. I understand what you're saying, but i think the question should be "why do we need a slow rof poison bite that is gimp at a competitive level" and not "there is room for slow rof poison bite because lerk is also good without it".
Forward umbra is so powerful, I really hope it is fixed before put in the game. Otherwise we're just going to have another unplayable build.
If a commander has to medpack a group of marines (its currently easy enough to spore and poison a smaller group of marines alone) it is negatively impacting their resources/economical decisions/strategy with energy being removed. I really like the direct impact you get to have on the enemy's economy besides RTs.
Besides this point, i feel like the lerk stands on it's own competitively even without it.
Observe:
<ul><li>Spores are support that ARE used competitively (had it used against me many times, and have used it personally many times)</li><li>Spike damage is amazingly effective for direct combat, moreso than ever, and these have always been used competitively as they were the default. Now theyre just better.</li><li>Umbra is a <b>major </b>asset to utilize late game and i bet we will see it overused, if anything, competitively.</li><li>So this leaves the bite, which considering my point earlier - and not the potential to kill a marine, which it can - it still has a very effective role.</li></ul>
My 2 cents<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played against you and I've played against your team, and frankly; you're not very good. Neither are 99% of the teams and players playing in the beta right now. Part of that is due to poor performance and part of that is simply because most of the players aren't skilled enough yet. Since Inversion folded, I can count the number of decent aimers currently playing the beta on less than one hand. I limit myself to saying "decent aimers", because compared to ns1, the skill level even amongst the best ns2 shots is poor (myself included).
With that said, it should be no surprise that some players use trailing spores competitively; it's the same reason players use it on pubs -- they don't get punished for it because marine skill is too low. I personally use it extremely rarely, as it's usually not worth the risk even against mediocre players, and I like to think I know a thing or two about lerking.
The impact of poison bite + trailing spores on marine economy will be negligible compared to that of projectile spores in ns1.
Admittedly, part the reason why I don't like low dps bite, trailing spores and rapidfire spikes, is based on what I expect from the lerk, the concept of the lerk if you will, and thus subjective. The problem is that all these abilities require the lerk to able to survive a lot of marine attacks, meaning it needs to have a lot of health/armor. The only way to make those abilities viable in an environment where it's possible to aim accurately at fast moving targets, and people have practiced enough to be able to do so, is to pump the health/armor up, probably somewhere between the current lerk hp/armor and fade hp/armor. Umbra is also going to have a similar effect, naturally. The end result of all this is that you have long, drawn out firefights instead of short, frantic battles. I much prefer the latter, but I suppose some might enjoy the former.
Fly in, bite, spore a bit and fly away, kill from a distance with spikes. Or fly in, bite the (soon-to-come) guy with the exo and grenade launcher destroying your hive, fly away and let the Skulks swarm him. Like a reverse nano-shield.
This is something that people keep repeating over and over again and I never really want to get it. Doesn't it make a big enough difference that one is a free disposable lifeform that trades 1:1 with marines whenever possible and the other is a fragile, expensive and supposedly essential support unit?
For example in NS1 I'm most comfortable with skulk and by far the least comfortable with lerk of all the roles you've got in the game. That's how different these two lifeforms are in NS1 DESPITE having very similar bite attacks.
then:
Fades are blinking Skulks
Oni are giant Skulks
..as they all attack in melee?
I don't get how people even compare Lerks and Skulks, thinking they are similar.
It feels like the same role when playing ingame.
It feels like the same role when playing ingame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree due to pres differences, limited skulk air control and other movement factors. Skulk and lerk play quite differently.
We could rename fade swipe to 'bite' and even change the first person animation to reflect it. Does this result in 'blinking skulks'? No, fade and skulk play differently as do lerks and skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1941378:date=Jun 4 2012, 03:48 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jun 4 2012, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ironhorse was referring to 210 where they've stated they are removing energy and all things using energy atm will be converted to t-res or something to that effect..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^
It creates this amazing tradeoff, imo, that is more typical in RTS games of support OR expansion/tech.
Regarding spores though: i believe when the lerk speed is increased when performance gets better, spores will be more viable as you'll be less of a track-able target. (i also call for spores to originate ahead of the lerk model as the first person view demonstrates, obscuring it from below.)
@Fana i dont think long drawn out fights will occur when combating a "Harasser" class who is not supposed to expose themselves too much /too long. Especially, as you noted, people's skill and performance will increase, making the lerk more and more fragile.
Also, i feel your expected use of sporing is limited, as you aren't accounting for the many applications of sporing being used when the enemy cant even see a lerk, like inside a bottleneck / chokepoint / entrance to a hive, where it serves a great purpose of wearing down the enemy - not to mention using it as an escape tactic to both obscure and hurt your enemy behind you in a squidlike fashion. None of these uses are subject to the level of exposure that would make the so called fana aimingâ„¢ such a threat to us inexperienced ones. Even if it were not used offensively, it still can be used for area denial.
It creates this amazing tradeoff, imo, that is more typical in RTS games of support OR expansion/tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So all previous energy consuming abilities use TRES now?
I will add that i was weary of this at first but now think its the better route after playing with it.
Well if this is the case then I hope power nodes cost Tres to repair/add a new one.
Yes. This was said in the cast this past weekend, btw, so it's public information. It could still change before it gets to the public, it depends if the devs are satisfied with it or not.
Energy made so much sense, Crag A <> Crag B, but now both are powered by Tres? So Tres for cysts? After they only just, finally, became free?
Am I the only one who thinks this is a disaster of mind wateringly epic proportions?
I guess not, its just: Med packs from Armoury energy, Nano from CC energy, Bombard from whip energy (? er is that right?) .... All brilliant ideas that took some 100 builds to polish, and now, BLAM, back to Tres?
Seems a step back for both Commander and Kham.
Energy made so much sense, Crag A <> Crag B, but now both are powered by Tres? So Tres for cysts? After they only just, finally, became free?
Am I the only one who thinks this is a disaster of mind wateringly epic proportions?
I guess not, its just: Med packs from Armoury energy, Nano from CC energy, Bombard from whip energy (? er is that right?) .... All brilliant ideas that took some 100 builds to polish, and now, BLAM, back to Tres?
Seems a step back for both Commander and Kham.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, I really think it is worth a try. Also the com got pRes that may be used for Nano, Med and Ammo. You got so much more options with one res-pool less. Think of the SG-rush in NS1, where you had a tradeoff because it was costing tRes to start such an attack. Having more options on one or two res-pools (pRes, tRes) gets you suddenly much more tactical options and decisions to take.
Now you really have to decide if you tech or build economy. If the weapons the com can buy go to tRes, you even have the option to decide for pushing out an attack. The pRes of the com would only be used for support abilities. It's a much clearer design.
Energy was never such a good idea. It was difficult to look at. (You had to find and click every building to know how much energy it had left.) and as I said, it introduced a third res-pool that breaks down the options you have and the decisions you have to make.
Often there was the argument, that the energy was a way to implement a cooldown for abilities. But really, even C&C1 has a better and more intuitive cool-down system with just a gray scaled clock running on the button of the ability when the cooldown is active. This is much more intuitive than looking at numbers on different buildings that you all have to select one by one. If you want the possibility of more than one use before the cooldown kicks in, you can simply display a number on the ability button for the uses left.
The next argument was, that you could increase the number of uses from abilities by building more of the responsible buildings. But this is not contradicted by a normal cool-down. For example you could display a passive ability "button" on the obs that says in the tooltip "+3 max. available scans". Such unclickable "buttons" for passive abilities are already in on the alien side. On top of that you could even introduce upgrades, that increase the max. uses for single abilities. Make this upgrades indefinite and you have a late game res sink. Or how about an upgrade that reduce the duration of the cooldown slightly?
I simply can't see what a third res-pool adds to the game.