Evolution investment
Angry Hillbilly 2
Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Members
Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Members
Im finding that ever since the alien upgrades (including the placement of hydras for free which several people have brought up) has been introduced, upgrades on the alien team are being taken for granted.
Whenever people seem to play these days an upgrade to say carapace just becomes a whole team upgrade once researched and people get it every time they spawn without a thought about it. I dont know why it should take any time at all upgrade to it if its free and at the rate that evolution takes to do.
Evolutions like this should be an INVESTMENT by the player say costing 2-5 res depending on the upgrades power. This way it will give the player a sense of urgency to protect their investment by staying alive, using their brain insted of going *SPAWN!*"CARAPACE SKULK RUSHINDIE* rinse and repeat.
It is the same with the Gorge hydra's people are placeing them way too offensively without a thought taken or consiquence. Again if they cost 3 to 5 res per hydra the gorge will perhaps think a LOT more about placement and their investment into it. 3 res may not sound like much on its own but stack all the upgrades and hydra's and 3 hydra's = 9 res + 3 res for carapace and another 3 for regen thats 15 res which is half a Lerk. Now if I had invested this amount into something i would be WAY more careful about what i did.
The cost of upgrades would also bring a little more variance in the field and will propably even help disipate some of the Tech Explosion still happening on the alien team. Those that want that heavy armour fast are gonna have to deal with low armour and abilites to save res but also the chance of death slowing down that res when in fact the carapace could of given that extra hardness they needed. Where as some will go all out upgrades and last longer but take longer to get to heavyer armour like fade or Onos and thus a varied res flow is on the field and will soften the current tech explosion.
Whenever people seem to play these days an upgrade to say carapace just becomes a whole team upgrade once researched and people get it every time they spawn without a thought about it. I dont know why it should take any time at all upgrade to it if its free and at the rate that evolution takes to do.
Evolutions like this should be an INVESTMENT by the player say costing 2-5 res depending on the upgrades power. This way it will give the player a sense of urgency to protect their investment by staying alive, using their brain insted of going *SPAWN!*"CARAPACE SKULK RUSHINDIE* rinse and repeat.
It is the same with the Gorge hydra's people are placeing them way too offensively without a thought taken or consiquence. Again if they cost 3 to 5 res per hydra the gorge will perhaps think a LOT more about placement and their investment into it. 3 res may not sound like much on its own but stack all the upgrades and hydra's and 3 hydra's = 9 res + 3 res for carapace and another 3 for regen thats 15 res which is half a Lerk. Now if I had invested this amount into something i would be WAY more careful about what i did.
The cost of upgrades would also bring a little more variance in the field and will propably even help disipate some of the Tech Explosion still happening on the alien team. Those that want that heavy armour fast are gonna have to deal with low armour and abilites to save res but also the chance of death slowing down that res when in fact the carapace could of given that extra hardness they needed. Where as some will go all out upgrades and last longer but take longer to get to heavyer armour like fade or Onos and thus a varied res flow is on the field and will soften the current tech explosion.
Comments
I don't agree with the hydras costing res though. They are so weak, they are hardly deserving of res investment. Being free allows them to be used more aggressively, steadily teared down and put up in more forward positions.
I don't agree with the hydras costing res though. They are so weak, they are hardly deserving of res investment. Being free allows them to be used more aggressively, steadily teared down and put up in more forward positions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, I hardly doubt your team being baddies should be taken into account when pricing upgrades.
Edit : Sorry, I forgot you are also a major baddie for allowing a Lone Marine to kill your Shell instead of ejecting and killing him. (You're also a baddie if you can't kill a Lone Marine with Carapace)
Hydra's can obviously be adjusted if the price was.
Edit : Sorry, I forgot you are also a major baddie for allowing a Lone Marine to kill your Shell instead of ejecting and killing him. (You're also a baddie if you can't kill a Lone Marine with Carapace)
Hydra's can obviously be adjusted if the price was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're the <b>Last</b> person id expect to see calling others baddies after repeatedly destroying you as both an alien AND a marine.
When you point a finger you unknowingly point 2 at yourself.
I agree about the constant wave of skulks though, did Charlie integrate a system where you don't get res when you're dead for that? Might be coming soon.
When you point a finger you unknowingly point 2 at yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you really come on the forum to brag about winning a game vs. me?
It doesn't matter if I'm the worst player to ever live, everything I've said is valid. Commander's letting Shells get sniped are bad, Marines letting a Single Gorge set-up outside of their base are bad.
I agree with what you're saying. Cara feels imbalanced compared to other upgrades currently (besides celerity). Just making it a team-upgrade with different levels might pose a simple solution (although some of the asymmetric design would get lost in the process). Upgrades costing res also made more sense to me.
Same goes for gorge. I really don't like the concept of getting stuff for free. Make buildings cost res so a) gorges have to think twice about building in a location and b) for marines it feels more like an accomplishment again to destroy them. Also ressink.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->did Charlie integrate a system where you don't get res when you're dead for that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's in the current build, but many people reported that it just causes slight delays and doesn't change much in the playstyle.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem with the old system was that no one ever upgraded their skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think part of the problem is the removal of RFK. With RFK a Upgrade could "pay off", with its removal it got much harder to justify the cost compared to saving for a higher lifeform. I actually think that would be a neat idea: Upgrades costing res, but you get the res for it back if you kill someone. Basically a tones down version of RFK.
I like this idea.
Edit : Sorry, I forgot you are also a major baddie for allowing a Lone Marine to kill your Shell instead of ejecting and killing him. (You're also a baddie if you can't kill a Lone Marine with Carapace)
Hydra's can obviously be adjusted if the price was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I won't pop out of the hive beforehand just to evolve carapace for myself. As commander I don't want to leave the post.
Sure if a marine is knifing the carapace, I can probably kill him. However a rifle marine at a distance will probably kill me, leaving the team without a comm for a while.
Back on topic though, I do think carapace is overpowered early game. Especially on the lerk currently, who can attack people head-on. Except on a couple (large) maps where celerity is first upgrade, everyones tactic is to research carapace and rush the marine base. With L0 weapons its hard to fight that.
It doesn't matter if I'm the worst player to ever live, everything I've said is valid. Commander's letting Shells get sniped are bad, Marines letting a Single Gorge set-up outside of their base are bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has nothing to do with bragging about winning a game.
I'm just saying don't attack some one's skill because you don't agree with the tactic, especially when you yourself are not the best player in NS2.
There is a perfectly valid reason to stay in the command chair, If he dies that's up to 15 seconds+ without a commander. When you play alien (who's commander does 90% of the work in terms of building ######, unlike the marines which are the opposite) having no commander for that period of time can hurt the team.
I'm just saying don't attack some one's skill because you don't agree with the tactic, especially when you yourself are not the best player in NS2.
There is a perfectly valid reason to stay in the command chair, If he dies that's up to 15 seconds+ without a commander. When you play alien (who's commander does 90% of the work in terms of building ######, unlike the marines which are the opposite) having no commander for that period of time can hurt the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The RTS element of this game is so shallow, particularly Alien commanding that there really isn't any difference between players - You can either comm effectively or you can't.
There are plenty of timing windows when the Alien commander has nothing to do and 99% of the time having a 50/50 chance at saving the Shell is so much better than getting an RT 15 seconds earlier.
It's mathematics, nothing to do with individual skill - People just need better decision making.
The Alien Commander is far less reactive than the Marine commander.
Edit : And ofcourse, I am the best NS2 player that ever was or ever will be - You on the other hand..
I think Hydras could do with a wee buff if they cost res, but as i said it dampens the tech explosion of aliens to hopefully a smooth curve. :) (or helps at least)
Currently, when you change to another lifeform from gorge your hydras are getting removed again, so I dont see how it is that much better. I much rather commit to a single lifeform and have a lasting impact on the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about a simple cooldown? When a hydra gets shot (not recycled!) you can't build this one again for 20seconds. This way, the gorge can't place them again and again in mid battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would fix this kind of exploiting the free-res structures system. I still feel the problem lies deeper and should be fixed at his root.
<!--quoteo(post=1942575:date=Jun 10 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Angry Hillbilly 2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angry Hillbilly 2 @ Jun 10 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ive alwys been a bit uneasy with RFK. The whole reason it was removed is because it caused spikes in unbalance. And to be honest the investment of it all is so that you get more kills/better support for the team and win you are making the decision of "is this upgrade going to make me a better support to the team?". RFK splits teams and you end up with "lone wolfs" going out there which helps nobody.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that it can easily cause snowball wins, esp. on pubs with unbalanced teams. It has already been discussed a lot, so lets not get into that ;). Thus my suggestion of only getting RFK only once per life, repaying your upgrade-costs if you have chosen any.
It also creates the tradeoff where you get a better defensive position but sacrifice a adv lifeform instead.
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About the evolution I think free upgrades are very positive for the game, it creates a different early game depending on what chambers are used. The main problem now is that most upgrades are simply not viable enough to be used.
I would also like to see a more diverse early-game. While many upgrades a currently not viable enough it's also harder to justify a strong upgrade when it comes for free.
Not everyone shares this excitement and play style. You should not force a player to a single life form for the whole round. Especially when gorge is the only life form you are forced to play the whole round with. Don't see Hydras as buildings like the ones from the com. They are a weapon from the gorge. If you want to play gorge you pay 10pRes and can use this weapon. If you decide to play another life form, you can't use this weapon anymore. It's like the engineer in TF2 you wouldn't expect your sentry to stay after you changed.
Yes, absolutely :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should not force a player to a single life form for the whole round. Especially when gorge is the only life form you are forced to play the whole round with. Don't see Hydras as buildings like the ones from the com. They are a weapon from the gorge. If you want to play gorge you pay 10pRes and can use this weapon. If you decide to play another life form, you can't use this weapon anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see how this is a very different design-approach. Before, the gorges ability to build hydras for res was used to gain map-control, something which he is lacking now (got compensated a bit with clogs). So team-members can no longer expect the gorge to spend their res building hydras all over the map and they are free to change to a higher lifeform. Guess it makes sense this way. I still feel the gorge is lacking something with his 3 small hydras in the length of a game, just not much you can ask for if you just pay 10 pRes for a lifeform.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like the engineer in TF2 you wouldn't expect your sentry to stay after you changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seeing how there are no costs associated with classes, of course not. TF2 is designed in a very different way.
This is actually a really good point. You pay 10res for the gorge. Why not let the hydras stay after dying? I sadly haven't played the build in which this was possible. Was it really such a great deal that most of the alien team changed to gorge in the beginning to drop their hydras and changed back? They payed 10pRes for this move, so it might be balanced.
Yes. It was.
The basic question is: is it fun to fight against hydras? Probably not, so it follows with: am I at least hurting the alien economy by destroying them/ did the alien side really invest something to get them build.
I'm kinda torn apart by these questions. On one side I want to see hydras as an investment, on the other I'm not so sure if I even want to see more on the map.
Free hydra does not limit the number of hydras, the hard cap and the death after un-gorging do.
Hard cap or any mechanics can be applied on pres hydras as well, they have nothing specific to free hydras.
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Is a hard cap the best way to limit the number of hydras on the map? Probably not.