How to fix hyperevolution
Angry Hillbilly 2
Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Members
Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Members
I was pondering on the subject ealier on how to fix hyperevolution without making it useless and I realised VERY VERY simple method for fixing it without breaking it.
Basically all that has to be done is to turn it on its head. Instead of getting your res back when you go back to a lower life form you mearly get a large discount on returning to it (or go back to that higher life form for free) Instead of receving the resources back entirely. So therefore you would still have to pay full wack for Onos or Fade say u were leak so in a diagram:
SPAWN: (the ----> represents an evolution and the number represents the cost to make that jump. The 0 makes it shown that the life form is unlocked as in been paid for)
Skulk -----30pres--> Lerk ---0Pres---> Skulk --0pres---> Lerk -----0pres----> Skulk -----50pres---> Fade -----0pres----> Lerk ------0pres-----> Fade ------0pres----> skulk ...etc
Basically illistrataing that you UNLOCK life forms with the hyper evolution ablity so VERY MUCH encoraging you to stay alive as long as possible without the possiblity of people cashing in their res going Skulk and then going Onos straight off the bat. So the hyperevolution mearly gives you the chance to bounce evolve between those that you have unlocked. Rather like changeing your loadout of guns in other games of guns you already have. You still need to purchace those new guns.
If it doesnt make sense in any way will be happy to explain more :P
Basically all that has to be done is to turn it on its head. Instead of getting your res back when you go back to a lower life form you mearly get a large discount on returning to it (or go back to that higher life form for free) Instead of receving the resources back entirely. So therefore you would still have to pay full wack for Onos or Fade say u were leak so in a diagram:
SPAWN: (the ----> represents an evolution and the number represents the cost to make that jump. The 0 makes it shown that the life form is unlocked as in been paid for)
Skulk -----30pres--> Lerk ---0Pres---> Skulk --0pres---> Lerk -----0pres----> Skulk -----50pres---> Fade -----0pres----> Lerk ------0pres-----> Fade ------0pres----> skulk ...etc
Basically illistrataing that you UNLOCK life forms with the hyper evolution ablity so VERY MUCH encoraging you to stay alive as long as possible without the possiblity of people cashing in their res going Skulk and then going Onos straight off the bat. So the hyperevolution mearly gives you the chance to bounce evolve between those that you have unlocked. Rather like changeing your loadout of guns in other games of guns you already have. You still need to purchace those new guns.
If it doesnt make sense in any way will be happy to explain more :P
Comments
See Anivia from Leauge of Legends: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Syose1O568" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Syose1O568</a>
Upgrades should be simple, useful to skulks, useful to higher life forms, and competitive with carapace.
See Anivia from Leauge of Legends: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Syose1O568" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Syose1O568</a>
Upgrades should be simple, useful to skulks, useful to higher life forms, and competitive with carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who would buy that? Would you pick it over Carapace or Celerity?
At least the current hyperevolution is a useful way for Gorge to multiclass in his spare time. I don't think I'd get that upgrade you're proposing as any class even if my team had 5 hives.
simple enough.
<b>Hyperevolution:</b> You are able to return for free to any lifeform you have previously evolved to since you last died.
Yes?
It doesn't solve some of the aesthetic problems I've complained about in other threads, but I admit it is a very elegant simplification, and it actually fixes ALL of the exploits, which is impressive. The solution I proposed in another thread doesn't quite do that. It's also easier to understand than the current implementation. One thing to mention as well, is you should lose all of your current "unlocks" if you un-evolve hyper. This would remove the exploit without making it flatly impossible for a player to decide they'd rather have celerity which is fantastic.
You'd probably never see anyone with all 5 lifeforms unlocked at once unless it was the end of the game and they were just burning res, plus who wants to risk losing a 165 res investment in one death? Still it would be great to grab it as an early gorge so you could switch back and forth for easy climbing and escaping. It would also be nice to have a gorge/fade or a gorge/lerk for quick healing when needed. Keep in mind, you can also use this as a quick way to hide and self-heal if you don't have regen.
Now an important question is this: I'm a celerity fade with no hyper. I get rid of celerity, grab hyper, and I switch to gorge. Can I go back to fade? If yes, there will be no reason to get hyper until you are ready to use it, which some might see as a bad thing (I kinda do). I would say the "recording" for unlocks should start when you evolve it, and exclude the current lifeform. The unlocks should be erased when you lose hyper or die.
The biggest downside to this idea is that it is flatly less powerful than the current hyper, and may be deemed not useful enough to stack up against the other upgrades, but I really think the simplicity of it will encourage more use and ultimately compensate for that.
This is a very good idea. More elegant than my proposals. I hope they use it. +1
edit: as an extra buff to make it more worthwhile, I think the gestation time for re-evolving to a previous lifeform should be made instant or near instant.
<!--quoteo(post=1941792:date=Jun 6 2012, 02:47 AM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jun 6 2012, 02:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if you de-evolve and you get some armor points instead of res, depending on which highest lifeform you've obtained.. So if you go from fade to lerk you get less armor than if you went from onos. That way the skill still has merit for going back in lifeforms.. also, reduce cost if you re-evolve to higher lifeform.. i.e. it would normally cost 45 to go back to onos from lerk, but if you were already onos with that life it would only cost 36 (80%).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The evolution actually does something beneficial for downgrading lifeform (a couple extra points of armor as skulk if you went down from, say, gorge) and gives a reduced cost for going back (8 pres to re-gorge, instead of 10.. if you were being successful as skulk.. which would in turn have had been easier because you had extra armor). Lifeforms still cost the same to evolve to (to gorge -> 10, to lerk from gorge -> 20, to fade from lerk -> 20, to onos from fade -> 25; 10+20+20+25 = 75). The thing is that the cost isn't reduced until you've already been that lifeform.. so it's a gamble upgrade.. if you don't use it you sacrificed something better like regeneration.. either way I don't see how this concept is much different than the one in the OP except for that there's a clear advantage to the one in the OP that changing becomes absolutely free.. at that point though both of these concepts make the skill almost entirely useless. I.e. the skulk to gorge example.. with my concept the player still must dish out 8 res every time he wants to go back to gorge, with the 0 res concept he is evolving back for free, allowing him/her to save res for higher lifeform easier, and not sacrifice anything to become an assault unit again. Anyways.. it gives the assault gorge(s) of the team the ability to become onos at late to end game for a sacrificed better slot so that they have a better chance at preventing arc rushes and taking down bases as well as devolving with an armor bonus late-end game as gorge to really seal the marines fate. And also, because they sacrificed the slot, the marines have a chance to take down the onos (that's using HM) eaiser (because of the lack of celerity/regen/?) to try to prevent their arcs from going down.
This is a better implementation than currently, which can be exploited for res.
The evolution actually does something beneficial for downgrading lifeform (a couple extra points of armor as skulk if you went down from, say, gorge) and gives a reduced cost for going back (8 pres to re-gorge, instead of 10.. if you were being successful as skulk.. which would in turn have had been easier because you had extra armor). Lifeforms still cost the same to evolve to (to gorge -> 10, to lerk from gorge -> 20, to fade from lerk -> 20, to onos from fade -> 25; 10+20+20+25 = 75). The thing is that the cost isn't reduced until you've already been that lifeform.. so it's a gamble upgrade.. if you don't use it you sacrificed something better like regeneration.. either way I don't see how this concept is much different than the one in the OP except for that there's a clear advantage to the one in the OP that changing becomes absolutely free.. at that point though both of these concepts make the skill almost entirely useless. I.e. the skulk to gorge example.. with my concept the player still must dish out 8 res every time he wants to go back to gorge, with the 0 res concept he is evolving back for free, allowing him/her to save res for higher lifeform easier, and not sacrifice anything to become an assault unit again. Anyways.. it gives the assault gorge(s) of the team the ability to become onos at late to end game for a sacrificed better slot so that they have a better chance at preventing arc rushes and taking down bases as well as devolving with an armor bonus late-end game as gorge to really seal the marines fate. And also, because they sacrificed the slot, the marines have a chance to take down the onos (that's using HM) eaiser (because of the lack of celerity/regen/?) to try to prevent their arcs from going down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your idea is completely different from the OP's.
Firstly, in yours Lerk to Onos costs 45 the first time, and then 36 later. In Op's, it costs 75 the first time, and 0 later. Your idea allows the first evolution to be discounted, which is the same as the current hypermutation, thus it doesn't solve any of the exploit problems such as the 5 minute Onos.
Secondly you add armor into the equation which doesn't belong in a shift upgrade in the first place (defensive upgrades go in the crag).
Thirdly you add 80% res costs for subsequent evolutions to previously used lifeoforms.
What you are proposing is identical to the current hypermutation for the first hyperevolution, and then adds extra stuff that happens when you devolve. It is actually <i>more</i> complicated and less intuitive.
Before hypermutation existed, these were the res costs you might have to pay for a new lifeform:
0, 10, 30, 50, 75
now that hyper is in, these are the possible costs you might end up paying, depending on the situation
0, 10, 20, 25, 30, 40, 45, 50, 65, 75
If the OP's idea is implemented, it will be back to this:
0, 10, 30, 50, 75
If you idea was implemented, it would be this:
0, 10, 20, 25, 30, 40, 45, 50, 65, 75, 8, 16, 24, 32, 36, 52, 60
AND it would involve armor points. The problems that people have with hypermutation is that it is too complicated, easy to exploit, and aesthetically mismatched with the other upgrdes. Your solution does not solve the exploits, is more complicated, and has aspects that belong in the Crag. I think you need to rethink your idea.
mu·ta·tion   [myoo-tey-shuhn]
noun
1.
Biology .
a.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
b.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.
2.
the act or process of changing.
3.
a change or alteration, as in form or nature.
Anyways.. I'm not going to argue biology and I don't have to rethink my idea for I am not a developer.. The idea is there, and it's a concept that balances aliens late game (gorges can get armor boosts and can becomes assault faster and with less cost) and fixes an exploit.. Also it wouldn't be too complicated: "Reduced cost for re-evolving and potential armor bonuses" how hard is that to learn? The mathematics happen passively and for those that would want to learn the exact values I'm sure someone would calculate them. Also the 80% figure is not written in stone you idiot.. it is just a figure because I don't like the idea of anything being free.. hell make it 20%, 40% I don't really care... I am not a developer and it should be up to devs to balance the nitty gritty like that. Free though? I don't even like the upgrades free as they are but I don't comment on it because 2 res is quite negligible anyways imo.. Anyways I have opinion that I keep to myself a lot of the time because of snide idiots like yourself thinking that I actually care whether or not an idea meets their standards.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you need to rethink your idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think that I should what? Create another concept?.. Well perhaps in time, but for now this is a concept that fixes an exploit.. In fact I've posted many concepts that have never made it in but I have widened peoples eyes potentially to the possibilities of what can be done.. In fact, My original post was before this thread was even created.
Jun 6 2012, 02:47 AM
Also, hillbilly why couldn't you just have extended this into the other open thread discussion about the same damn topic! God damn.
mu·ta·tion   [myoo-tey-shuhn]
noun
1.
Biology .
a.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
b.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.
2.
the act or process of changing.
3.
a change or alteration, as in form or nature.
Anyways.. I'm not going to argue biology and I don't have to rethink my idea for I am not a developer.. The idea is there, and it's a concept that balances aliens late game (gorges can get armor boosts and can becomes assault faster and with less cost) and fixes an exploit.. Also it wouldn't be too complicated: "Reduced cost for re-evolving and potential armor bonuses" how hard is that to learn? The mathematics happen passively and for those that would want to learn the exact values I'm sure someone would calculate them. Also the 80% figure is not written in stone you idiot.. it is just a figure because I don't like the idea of anything being free.. hell make it 20%, 40% I don't really care... I am not a developer and it should be up to devs to balance the nitty gritty like that. Free though? I don't even like the upgrades free as they are but I don't comment on it because 2 res is quite negligible anyways imo.. Anyways I have opinion that I keep to myself a lot of the time because of snide idiots like yourself thinking that I actually care whether or not an idea meets their standards.
You think that I should what? Create another concept?.. Well perhaps in time, but for now this is a concept that fixes an exploit.. In fact I've posted many concepts that have never made it in but I have widened peoples eyes potentially to the possibilities of what can be done.. In fact, My original post was before this thread was even created.
Jun 6 2012, 02:47 AM
Also, hillbilly why couldn't you just have extended this into the other open thread discussion about the same damn topic! God damn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I did make a mistake saying your idea doesn't fix any exploits. It does fix one of them. Getting res back when you switch from Onos back to skulk is just one of several exploits though. The five minute Onos problem happens when a commander pre-evolves an egg to lerk for just 30 res and then the alien that spawns into it evolves from lerk to onos with hypermutation for just 45 res. It is a way for aliens to pool their resources together. Another problem is the fact that people can just switch to celerity after hyper-evolving. You do not address either of these issues. Your idea only fixes 1 of 3 exploits, but the post here fixes all 3 of them, so it is an important difference.
Also changing the 80% to 20 or 40 would have 0 impact on any of the points I made.
I didn't bother responding the first time you posted your idea, but since you went to the effort of posting it in two threads I decided to read it well enough to understand it and post detailed arguments why I don't think it's a good idea. If you don't care, you don't care. Fine with me.
which ones?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For these reasons, there should NEVER be an ability that “converts†between one type of resource and another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) This becomes complicated unless lifeforms chosen upgrades stay when evolving... but basically:
a) Kham gives gorge -10 resources
b) Gorge evolves hypermutation (permanently) and gains a counter of +10 that he must pay if evolving to any lifeform higher than himself (essentially making him a servant of the kham because the kham paid for him, not himself.. if he wants to pay for a lifeform himself, he still has to)
c) Gorge goes back to skulk for whatever reason..
d) Counter is now set to currentLifeform (0, skulk as opposed to 10, gorge) So evolving costs regular costs except gorge because he had hyper before he devolved. Gorge will cost (at 80% cost..) 8. Lerk 30, fade 50, onos 75.
Example 2:
a) Kham gives lerk -30 resources.
b) Lerk evolves to fade for 50 res
c) Fade evolves hyper (for whatever reason choosing to evolve it after.. maybe it was researching), no counter is added because it's his own purchase, onos cost is 25.
d) Fade evolves to onos for 25 res
Total resources cost: 105
Same thing but lerk gets hyper:
a) Kham gives lerk -30 resources. (SAME STEP AS EXAMPLE 2!)
b) Lerk evolves hypermutation (permanently) and gains a counter of +30 that he must pay if evolving to any lifeform higher than himself
c) Lerk evolves to fade for 20 +30 res
d) Fade evolves to onos for 25 res
Total resources spent: 105
However yes things start getting complicated when lifeforms can choose new traits. Also, there is still a way to exploit this but you're only saving a tiny amount of res:
a) Kham gives lerk -30 resources.
b) Lerk gets hypermutation and gains a counter for (currentLifeformCost until evolving 'up' in lifeforms)
c) Lerk goes gorge for no cost
d) Gorge goes back to lerk after much (or little.. so why gorge in the first place?) time as gorge.. cost: 26 +10.
Now you may be thinking... well why does lerk cost 36? But it's not lerk that's costing 36.. it's lerk <b>and gorge</b> that were bought.. 4 resources saved
On the largest scale of exploitation:
a) Kham gives Onos -75 resources.
b) Onos gets hypermutation and gains a counter for (currentLifeformCost until evolving 'up' in lifeforms)
c) Onos goes Fade for no cost
d) Fade goes back to Onos after much (or little.. so why Fade in the first place?) time as Fade.. cost: 60 +50.
15 Resources saved... half of the current exploit plus the kham had to dish out 75 for the inital cost anyways.. quite a large investment for the person to just go fade with some extra armor.. however, I think that could be used strategically still.
2) Have hypermutation stick when evolved.. i.e. changing lifeforms will force you to keep hypermutation..
My original post actually addresses #2 (and I cut that part out in this thread) or at least I say that I agree with others saying that if you get hypermutation, it should stay. And #1 is interesting because I think the kham being able to give lifeforms like that shouldn't even be a part of the game to begin with.. however, I have not said this because I'm not sure how that made it into the game to begin with.. and I hope it's removed personally :\
Pre-evolving costs commander p-res, not t-res. It doesn't convert between types.
If the shift hive represents a movement-based evolution tree then I don't see how hypermutation fits in, other than it "shifts" you from one form to another.
Personally, I'd rather see an ability which operates similarly to the shift's "echo" ability: as a player, you turn into an egg, select your destination point (has to be on infestation) from the map, you disappear from your current spot and reappear in your destination as an egg. It would take a couple of seconds to transform to the egg, to transit, and to transform back from the egg to your current form.
The shift is about "movement" on many dimensions. That includes movement along the tech tree. <i>Actually, I don't like the sound of that one bit.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1942525:date=Jun 9 2012, 09:48 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 9 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I'd rather see an ability which operates similarly to the shift's "echo" ability: as a player, you turn into an egg, select your destination point (has to be on infestation) from the map, you disappear from your current spot and reappear in your destination as an egg. It would take a couple of seconds to transform to the egg, to transit, and to transform back from the egg to your current form.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, that would just overlap directly with what Celerity does. Consider that the Crag Hive's upgrades (Carapace + Regen) or Shade Hive's (Camouflage + Silence) compliment each other. I think we should be looking for an upgrade that would complement Celerity instead, which Hypermutation only did in vague theorycraft (but IMO won't ever work realistically).
For skulks, fades and Onos it would have an impact on leap, blink and charge respectively; but since flying doesn't cost energy for a lerk, or sliding energy for a gorge, there wouldn't be an improvement here.
<!--quoteo(post=1942374:date=Jun 9 2012, 03:30 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 9 2012, 03:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the Design FAQ under “X should cost (energy/pres/tres) instead for (long well-thought out interesting reason)â€:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to correct myself, I didn't notice before how the comm uses his pRes for dropping weapons/pre-evolving eggs. So it stays in line with the design. Still a silly feature imo, having an additional resource as commander with so little uses.