The stressful, unloved job of Marine Commander
Cee Colon Slash
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How can it be made a more friendly experience?</div>I've played a several games lately where the marines lost because no one wanted to be the commander. I've been asking lately why people don't want to command, and the response are nearly universal: "it's too stressful", "people scream at you", "I'm no good at it".
I'm posting this topic in hopes of generating some discussion about what makes the marine commander experience so stressful, and how this could be alleviated to make a more enjoyable experience for both the comm and non-commander marines alike. Alien wins as a result of no one marine commanding are unfun and boring.
The marine commander model is fundamentally different from the alien commander model, and while I do get the asymmetrical nature of the game, I find the alien commander experience much more enjoyable <i>because the players aren't immediately relying on me to help them</i>. Yes - both sides need to research upgrades, but I'm speaking of dropping medpacks and ammo and the like. The alien commander doesn't really have this same direct impact on her lifeforms. Technically drifters can use enzymes, but you know why you don't see it? Because it's a pain to micro-manage, which is what the marine commander has to do <i>all the time</i>.
Here comes the stress: a marine is going to ask for a medpack and I'm going to fail to deliver it on time because I was busy doing something else. Player dies from alien attack while I'm placing the arms lab, and then screams at me for not supporting him. Or, conversely, I'm dropping medpacks and ammo like crazy to support the troops, and then I get screamed at because we're still at weapons / armour 0.
Will the change from energy to resources stop medpack and ammo spam? Definitely. But it won't stop the problem of micro-management, which I'm thinking might be at the heart of the stress.
So - discuss, please. Vent. How can this get better? Or maybe you think it's perfect! Discuss!
I'm posting this topic in hopes of generating some discussion about what makes the marine commander experience so stressful, and how this could be alleviated to make a more enjoyable experience for both the comm and non-commander marines alike. Alien wins as a result of no one marine commanding are unfun and boring.
The marine commander model is fundamentally different from the alien commander model, and while I do get the asymmetrical nature of the game, I find the alien commander experience much more enjoyable <i>because the players aren't immediately relying on me to help them</i>. Yes - both sides need to research upgrades, but I'm speaking of dropping medpacks and ammo and the like. The alien commander doesn't really have this same direct impact on her lifeforms. Technically drifters can use enzymes, but you know why you don't see it? Because it's a pain to micro-manage, which is what the marine commander has to do <i>all the time</i>.
Here comes the stress: a marine is going to ask for a medpack and I'm going to fail to deliver it on time because I was busy doing something else. Player dies from alien attack while I'm placing the arms lab, and then screams at me for not supporting him. Or, conversely, I'm dropping medpacks and ammo like crazy to support the troops, and then I get screamed at because we're still at weapons / armour 0.
Will the change from energy to resources stop medpack and ammo spam? Definitely. But it won't stop the problem of micro-management, which I'm thinking might be at the heart of the stress.
So - discuss, please. Vent. How can this get better? Or maybe you think it's perfect! Discuss!
Comments
The only times I ever successfully commanded is when the team was a positive group who took an active role in spotting and relaying information. I sort of let the players fall into their own strategies unless they're doing something clearly wrong. And those times I give a greater incentive to push a certain spot of the map by dropping an armory there. And building a secondary base on the other end of the map even before researching phasegates, letting them spread out for map control and using beacon to direct them for an attack.
If they can't handle a new or casual stand-in commander they shouldn't play pub games or maybe they should command themselves.
And if they want to attract the hardcore commanders they should probably add some silly ranking system where it tracks and compares your actions per minute or something.
That said, I still really enjoy it. The main problem I see right now (mainly for marines) is performance for your team. Either you have a few comp players on your team with godly aim (and equally good computers) which allows you to hold rt's and tech up for an easy win, or else you're playing against comp players in in which you're constantly losing rt's and having to replace them. And due either to your team's lack of computer performance, lesser aim, or a combination of the two, not being able to hold rt's brings your team into the 10 minute mark with only basic upgrades. And when you're facing fades before this, and onos' after, it's almost an inevitable loss. That's probably the point where most people start complaining about not having upgrades and blaming the comm for not having A, B, C, and all the other toys and upgrades. Marines seem to magically forget that you need rt's to tech up, and if they can't hold rt's, they have to be replaced before teching up can resume. Comm's can't hold rt's by themselves 8D.
Anyway, I still enjoy comm'ing. I'd wait till performance drastically increases (fingers crossed) and players are able to actually compete and hold rt's before making any broad statements about comming.
Those things aren't a requirement for an alien comm to do well on the average pub server.
I actually enjoy marine comm for that reason.
Generally in my games no one wants to listen to the commander. And they always find it so easy to tell the commander what he should be doing rather than focusing on what the commander needs them to do.
When i com i have terrible experiences with my marines, a pack of 3 marines will die to a solo skulk, theyre running to the wrong places setting up power and whatnot when theres an important skirmish on the other side of the map. Ive got this loner marine waiting for a res node to be placed far outside my territory- they just dont understand. Then some ###### will have his mp3's playing in the background so he's pretty much nothing but a drone who does nothing i ask.
My team generally love the way i try communicate with them and my far out ideas i try to engage but the skill and co-operation amongst everyone is just lacking.
I havent played for 3 months and i seriously dont think ill play normal ns2 again :/. Intelligence and teamwork skills is just being breeded out in this wave of new gamers, the game isnt made for them. Im just gonna wait for a simply dumbed down mod everyone can enjoy.
Its all simply in the players.
I do this aswell, and problem is that at that point the game is often already lost. Not that I'm a great marine commander anyway, its true that its a far more stressful job.
Also the team relies much more upon the commander for direction (I find), alien commanders can almost act in response to their team rather than directing them - if the aliens must hard in one direction, I throw up whips and hives. If they start attacking the base, I setup crags and whips outside to support, etc. If I do this as marine commander, people just wander around and die after the first few RTs go up.
Alien comm is a support role and is sometimes referred to as "gardening"... So yeah, marine comming is much more difficult than alien comming and also much more rewarding. When comming aliens there is often really little interaction and I find that I sometimes don't perform to the best of my ability just because I find it so boring that I am not really concentrating on the game.
I find that marine comming can be extremely frustrating but also extremely rewarding, when you manage to win an even match, so I do comm publics semi-often. One thing I've noticed though is, that you really need at least one good, dependable marine on your team, who understands the game. This marine is preferably a clanmate but basically any experienced player that can get you those RTs when needed and also try and lead the more-lemmings-like-players along with example when needed. The whole team doesn't have to be top-notch and Im not advocating stacking, but having at least one good player on the field is really a big bonus.
This also happens to be why alien comm is so boring for anyone who puts a little effort into learning how to play the game; there's very little content and not a lot to do with it beyond the initial "training wheels" phase.
In RTS games, player tasks can be separated into micro (dropping medpacks for example) and macro (selecting upgrades for example). Increasing the player's options in either department adds depth, which also translates into a higher level of difficulty as you are always competing to perform these tasks faster and better than the opposing RTS player. Unfortunately, there's no way to increase depth in a multiplayer game without also making it more stressful. This is inherent to the role of the RTS player in a multiplayer game and becomes even more apparent in an RTS/FPS hybrid: As all the other players on the team are reliant on the comm to provide the means with which to kill the opposing team and win the game, it also follows that those players will be frustrated if their commander isn't providing said means.
If we want to dig a little deeper, it's really a matter of expectations. Every time a player plays the game, he gains experience with different commanders. Eventually, that player will, through that repeated experience, gain an understanding of how most comms play the game, and thereby also an expectation of how the current comm should play. These expectations will be determined by what we can, roughly speaking, call the average comm performance. As the game ages and the skill of the average commander increases, those expectations will also increase. What that means, unfortunately, is that the "problems" you describe in the OP will only increase with time.
What's even worse, is that there's nothing we can do about it (within the confines of "depth" -- there are other ways to alleviate the problem), provided we don't want to make the role of the commander meaningless. I define "meaningless" as limiting his impact on the game so much that it doesn't really matter who jumps into the hive or command station at the start of the game (it won't be stressful for inexperienced commanders, but neither will it be any fun for experienced commanders).
tl;dr: This is a "two sides of the coin" type of situation. Make commanding too easy, and the dedicated players suffer. Make it too hard, and the casual players suffer. You have to try to find some sort of balance, or you will end up alienating one of the two player bases.
Unfortunately for your (the OP) argument, the marine commander has already struck that balance, with a bias towards the casual players, if anything. Compared to pure RTS games such as the Starcraft series, even the NS2 marine commander has little depth. So far, UWE have even been trying to increase the depth of the marine commander by adding more micro tasks, such as the nano-shield and nano-construct abilities. Making the marine commander "less stressful" just isn't an option I'm afraid.
I will also say though -- and this may surprise the readers of this post who know that I am a player on the extreme end of the "dedicated player" spectrum -- that I don't think the marine commander needs more depth (the current alien commander certainly does though). There are two reasons for that:
The first is that I actually agree with your sentiment, that playing commander in this game can be very stressful, even unpleasant for inexperienced players, and that this creates a number of problems -- some of which the OP has correctly identified. (Admittedly this is a sliding scale, but every bit we move it towards "more depth", the more adversely it affects other parts of the game -- and conversely, the more we move it towards "less depth", the more meaningless it makes the RTS part of the game).
The second, and most important, is that the RTS/FPS hybrid introduces a mechanic that alleviates the comparative lack of depth in the RTS part of the game. Earlier in this thread I talked a little bit about depth in RTS games consisting of micro and macro player tasks. Interestingly, RTS/FPS games like NS1/2 introduce a third type of player task that doesn't fit into the classic RTS distinction between micro and macro: leadership. In thoroughbred RTS games such as the Starcraft series, leading your troops merely consists of clicking them around the map (micro). In NS2 however, you're dependant on the good will of the other players themselves; if they refuse to follow your orders, regardless of how much you shout at them, there's nothing you can do to force them.
Some believe this to be a problem. Personally, my opinion is the complete opposite. I think it is one of the strongest parts of the game. It is the number one reason why this breed of RTS/FPS multiplayer game makes any sense at all, and without it, playing the RTS part of the game would be lethally boring. What it does, is introduce a distilled social aspect into the core gameplay, that is both inherently fun and deep.
When you realize that multiplayer games can be separated into two components in the first place -- the competitive and social aspects -- it's actually surprising that the social aspect usually only plays a secondary role in RTS and FPS gameplay. What NS1/2 does, is make the social aspect a primary role on the gameplay. Suddenly your direct impact on the game isn't just dependant on your skill at clicking buttons and planning ahead, it is also dependant on your skill as a member of the "human tribe" -- your interactions with other social beings.
This is why I would divide "depth" in the RTS part of NS1/2 into three components: micro, macro and social. This is also why I think UWE's concept of making the alien commander a "cosmic gardener" is inherently flawed and at odds with the RTS/FPS hybrid to begin with. It's something I could probably attempt to write a 12 000 word game design thesis about (unfortunately my educational commitments lie elsewhere), but that's enough wall of text for now.
tl;dr: The NS1 commander struck a decent balance between dedicated/casual for this type of game and neither the marine nor the alien commander should deviate too much from it in terms of depth.
Edit: Squirelli expressed similar thoughts in the post above while I was writing this.
The second, and most important, is that the RTS/FPS hybrid introduces a mechanic that alleviates the comparative lack of depth in the RTS part of the game. Earlier in this thread I talked a little bit about depth in RTS games consisting of micro and macro player tasks. Interestingly, RTS/FPS games like NS1/2 introduce a third type of player task that doesn't fit into the classic RTS distinction between micro and macro: leadership. In thoroughbred RTS games such as the Starcraft series, leading your troops merely consists of clicking them around the map (micro). In NS2 however, you're dependant on the good will of the other players themselves; if they refuse to follow your orders, regardless of how much you shout at them, there's nothing you can do to force them.
Some believe this to be a problem. Personally, my opinion is the complete opposite. I think it is one of the strongest parts of the game. It is the number one reason why this breed of RTS/FPS multiplayer game makes any sense at all, and without it, playing the RTS part of the game would be lethally boring. What it does, is introduce a distilled social aspect into the core gameplay, that is both inherently fun and deep. When you realize that multiplayer games can be separated into two components in the first place -- the competitive and social aspects -- it's actually surprising that the social aspect usually only plays a secondary role in gameplay. What NS1/2 does, is make the social aspect a primary role on the gameplay. Suddenly your direct impact on the game isn't just dependant on your skill at clicking buttons and planning ahead, it is also dependant on your skill as a member of the "human tribe" -- your interactions with other social beings.
This is why I would divide "depth" in the RTS part of NS1/2 into three components: micro, macro and social.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I've been addicted to FPS games ever since Wolfenstein 3D. What made me choose NS1 and NS2 among all the other great FPS-games out there is the social aspect, the need for deep teamwork in order to win. I mean, asymmetric gameplay is all good and playing as alien is really refreshing after playing the usual BF/COD style combat, but the focus on teamplay is why I'm here. Sure, even great leading (in marine commanding or elsewhere) is often met with ungratitude, since everyone sees the mistakes you make but can not see the ones you avoided. Despite the ungratitude I find myself quite often in leadership positions... Dunno why I put myself through it every time, but if the game didn't have the (difficult to some) teamplay and leadership aspects, I wouldn't be playing this game ;)
The other issue is that there are no hard and fast build orders for the Marine team, there are plenty of things you can do - And none of them are particularly catch-all.
Whereas, 2 RT's/Carapace/Leap/Second-Hive/Regen is a catch-all strategy - It's really all a good team of players will ever need.
All of the Marine trees are so damn expensive - And they are all required.
You need Armor 1 for Fades.
Jetpacks for Onos.
Just getting PG's is 55 TRes so that you can effectively lock down an area.
ARC's for Whip Spam.
etc.
I wonder if there is any way of improving, or build on this socials aspects, or if there is any current mechanics that hurt them?
For example to promote the use of mic, the game should open a mic configuration tab on first startup, conveying the idea that this is a game is which you should talk.
I'm a bit suspicious that adding depth would make commanding more difficult or stressful, for example adding a fourth chamber on alien side would increase by a lot the number of possible tech paths, but I don't really see how it would make alien commanding more stressful... well maybe you would have more way to fail.
I think having a commander tutorial, and generally improving the interface (e.g. seeing the health of your marines) would do more on that matter.
Something simple like making sure someone wants to comm before the game start could also help maybe? (c.f. improving the ready room into a proper match-making system).
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pERmFXEgDYM&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pERmFXEgDYM...eature=youtu.be</a>
i think shared waypoints would be a good idea. every marine can see the different spots of the map the comm wants the team meeting up at / pushing into. that way, when say your res team of 3 just got mowed down to 1 guy by one skulk, one of the marines in the pressure team notices and can run over to make sure the last guy doesnt die before his reinforcements arrive from base.
without the comm having to say anything, anyone on the team would be able to see the group of marines at the "res" waypoint being taken out, and could start running there to help on instinct(hopefully, lol).
i do this myself whenever i die, i look at the map to see which parts are weakest, and go there to help. i think this simple tactic should be encouraged.
The waypoint system (as quite many things in the comm interface) could be better, but waypoints can never replace the microphone. A marine that has an idea of the teams current tactic, state of the match and immediate goals is a more motivated marine with better situational awareness. This allows for exploiting opportunities as they present themselves and better teamwork. It also keeps the marine thinking (as opposed to just numbly following some blinking pointers on the map) and more committed to winning as a team. Communicating just via waypoints and other absolute orders takes away a lot from the players on initiative and makes them care less for what happens to the team.
I have also seen communities vary alot. Most servers communities either have enough good comms, or they encourage people to learn and offer help with strategies. I try and avoid those where players yell and scream at the commander for the entire game... Why would anyone do that?
depressing. :( on pubs it will be a roll of the dice - maybe a match/ranking system can help - but how do you capture a stat for a player's teamwork ('team kills', waypoints followed?). maybe you just could restrict games by hours played & have a good shot of players joining that 'get it'
<!--quoteo(post=1943033:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:49 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 13 2012, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately for your (the OP) argument, the marine commander has already struck that balance, with a bias towards the casual players, if anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure I agree with this point, I think the casual player jumps in the chair, it doesn't work out, or it doesn't work out (badly), and they never comm again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Compared to pure RTS games such as the Starcraft series, even the NS2 marine commander has little depth. So far, UWE have even been trying to increase the depth of the marine commander by adding more micro tasks, such as the nano-shield and nano-construct abilities. Making the marine commander "less stressful" just isn't an option I'm afraid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That must be why I end up losing interest in Starcraft. :P I know there it's all about actions per minute, but really, if you're relying on your team to get the orders accomplished, then why must it be so micro-intensive? And to sum up the point - if the stress comes from the micro-, and there's no way to make the game less micro-, then there's no way to alleviate the stress players feel from commanding, and thus no way to increase the odds that someone will command.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some believe this to be a problem. Personally, my opinion is the complete opposite. I think it is one of the strongest parts of the game. It is the number one reason why this breed of RTS/FPS multiplayer game makes any sense at all, and without it, playing the RTS part of the game would be lethally boring. What it does, is introduce a distilled social aspect into the core gameplay, that is both inherently fun and deep.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree with you here. When it works, it is a thing of beauty and some of the best team play experience I've ever had. The mechanics are very good.
<!--quoteo(post=1943079:date=Jun 13 2012, 01:26 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 13 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to sum up the point - if the stress comes from the micro-, and there's no way to make the game less micro-, then there's no way to alleviate the stress players feel from commanding, and thus no way to increase the odds that someone will command.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this is a big problem unfortunately, one that I don't think it's possible to escape from by changing game parameters, as that will ruin the game for more dedicated/experienced players. As I hinted to in my post though, there are other ways to ease players into commanding instead of throwing them to the wolves, so to say. Tutorials, newbie servers, and so on.
<!--quoteo(post=1943079:date=Jun 13 2012, 01:26 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 13 2012, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That must be why I end up losing interest in Starcraft. :P I know there it's all about actions per minute, but really, if you're relying on your team to get the orders accomplished, then why must it be so micro-intensive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order to make commanding a satisfying experience, it can't just be about the social component. It needs as much macro and micro as possible; without those two you lose the core RTS experience.
About it being micro-intensive, I don't really know what to tell you. There is already very little micro compared to thoroughbred RTS games (Starcraft, Warcraft, AoE, C&C). Perhaps multiplayer RTS gameplay isn't for you?
Oh, I definitely figured that out already. :)
I think the biggest reason I rage at coms is because I'm relying on them for meds/ammo. It's so frustrating to be relying on another person to be able to fight effectively while they are busy playing base builder. I think the meds/ammo requests and prompts should be a lot clearer. It should be very easy for coms to be able to see exactly what my health/armour and ammo is (without having to click on each unit) and a big icon and sound should flash when I'm requesting support. Often I can be spamming "Need medpack" over and over and the com will have no idea. I think many coms forget that a huge part of their job is to support the other players, rather than just building the base.
The alien com doesn't have any of those support abilities that the aliens really rely on to be able to effective in combat.
I also think the health/armor bars of all friendly units/players should be on by default so that it's plain and clear to the comm that something needs healing, aside from having to call out for it. Or at least those that are missing health or armor should always be visible, I suppose the stuff that's at 100% doesn't need to show.
It's not only the fault of the players not listening to the commander. The com should not only be good in motivating the people to follow his orders. He should also have a very calm character. Some marines don't follow your orders? Keep calm and repeat. Don't scream and rage. This will make nothing better. Maybe this one marine is not that good in the english language? Maybe he just couldn't understand you over his rifle firing sound? Maybe he doesn't know what you want from him, because he is new to the game?
The best coms I had, had been those who stayed calm and repeated the orders again and again or could just figure out which players to work with and let the other ones play as they want.
As you stated, this game is much about social abilities. (You wouldn't have guessed reading this forum... ;))
Also the abilities of a player to endure a bad com and the ability of a com to endure players that won't follow his orders.
And to "Cee Colon Slash": The macro is easy to learn and the micro is much less important when you can manage to motivate your players to engage together and follow your orders.
I'll suggest that the macro is indeed easy to learn, but the micro is only less important if you have players who know how to play - how to support each other, go in groups, etc. If you have a bunch of solo artists, then if you aren't supporting them, they die easily.
I'm agreeing that it should be a little easier to support players in the field - better indicators of a marine's health and ammo levels are a good start.
I also hadn't considered the various impediments to commands getting followed: language capability, map familiarity, etc.
and yes, health rings should be displayed at all times on marines even when not selected, this one is just a no brainer. maybe even some kind of ammo bar aswell on the side of them.
"For example to promote the use of mic, the game should open a mic configuration tab on first startup, conveying the idea that this is a game is which you should talk."
Good cdr's know their strategy inside out, new cdr's have to spend more time on it.
The Marines tactics are more important minute by minute, but lacking strategy puts the Marines behind in the medium to long term.
I would even go as far as to say it is unfair on the Marine cdr.
Mic comms is poor due to how busy the Marines can be. I would like to see a weighting system on waypoints to help the division of manpower across the map to make it a little less micro manage for the cdr.
I also think the Marines tactical elements need to be pushed a little more to the FPS side of the game, giving the cdr a little more space.
Basicially, you'll:
1) support your troops with medpacks/ammo
2) driving arcs around
3) navigating arcs around to build/repair stuff (to free marine manpower)
4) checking your bases for ninja skulks etc
5) dropping buildings
6) starting research
Now, with the strategical element, you'll also have to:
7) Keep track of every single marine and your bases to indenfity threats
8) Deceide on overall strategy (research, etc)
9) Deceide on invidual strategy for each marine (holding positions, etc)
10) Give out orders either ingame or though voice
Also note that the better your team is, the less you'll have to work as com. You won't be giving out orders as much and can focus on research, buildings etc because your team usually knows what they are doing. If they don't, you try to get them things done.
Also obviously, with increased player count that stress also increases, as you might want to support more people with medpacks etc (though in that case it may be adviseable to drop an armory instead in some cases :))
Split up the responsibility on more than <b>one</b> person.
Like the Gorges in NS1, you know?
Not going to happen though.
Split up the responsibility on more than <b>one</b> person.
Like the Gorges in NS1, you know?
Not going to happen though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably not before v1.0, but I think this was the idea behind the multiple comms concept. In a 6v6, one comm can pretty much handle the job, but not so much in a 16v16. I've always liked the idea of having mini-comms or even squad leaders with limited comm abilities (like med/ammo drops, can drop RTs, control MACs, etc).