100fps cap is a bad idea

PyromaniacPyromaniac Join Date: 2009-02-20 Member: 66498Members
In this video Dushan says they're capping the game at 100fps
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/321229253?t=17m11s" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/321229253?t=17m11s</a>

Ok, forget the current state of performance, but lets talk in the future when a very high stable frame rate is possible. Capping the game at 100fps is going to set the developers up for problems down the line if this is something that can't be easily changed. I don't think the developers realize where the monitor industry is headed even for the average consumer, or how NS and every other PC fps is played competitively. I talked to Dushan about this at PAX, but I guess I didn't get through.

Every high level player in NS used developer mode to get past the 100fps cap of gldsrc, not just to achieve certain fpses that gave a gameplay advantage due to the way things were coded, but because it allowed for smooth gameplay. I personally play games on a crt at 150hz, but with new monitor technology these days, many people own 120hz lcds not even to play games competitively, but to get a smooth visual experience in their games. Even with a 60hz lcd, many people can tell you high fpses help smooth the game a lot so the monitor refreshes as close the the current game state as possible and tearing can be mostly eliminated if you take a little time to dial in on a good fps. 100fps is usually bad for 60hz monitors, this alone should be reason to change it.

Now why is this especially important for NS2? Because it's a pretty fast game. Granted, NS1 was faster, but NS2 is still among the fastest games of its time. When high fps is achievable in the future, a large percentage of people will have 120hz monitors and designing the game to be limited to 100fps now might just be creating problems that might be a huge pain to fix later. I certainly hope that the developers have learned from NS1 and won't tie gameplay elements to fps, so this talk of capping it is just an arbitrary value and can be changed without consequence at any point.
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Comments

  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1943193:date=Jun 13 2012, 11:51 PM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Jun 13 2012, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now why is this especially important for NS2? Because it's a pretty fast game. Granted, NS1 was faster, but NS2 is still among the fastest games of its time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That depressed me. ###### it, I'm getting into my DeLorean, screw the 21st century.

    Also, +1 for the no FPS-cap of any kind thing. I'm assuming it ISNT because of game-logic reasons, as we're supposed to be past that since the turbo-buttons on 386\486s. Can't watch the video, as the twitch-flashplayer crashes on me. Expedite the uploadin' to YouTube as they for some reason DO have proper flash-players (obligatory flash-bashing notwithstanding).
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    Yeah, I agree I don't understand the reason for this cap. I also think NS2 would be much better with 60 tick servers, since as you say it is a fast passed game, but I doubt we will see that :(
  • ZenoTasedroZenoTasedro Join Date: 2012-06-13 Member: 153227Members
    The purpose of an fps cap is to limit the amount of power being thrown into needlessly rendering frames that you won't even notice, saving system resources for things that are more important, regardless of whatever superhuman powers you have to see beyond the framerate of what human eyes can process. Though I agree that from the design perspective of a game engine this should be implemented as a variable rather than a constant.
  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1943199:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:17 AM:name=ZenoTasedro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZenoTasedro @ Jun 14 2012, 12:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The purpose of an fps cap is to limit the amount of power being thrown into needlessly rendering frames that you won't even notice, saving system resources for things that are more important, regardless of whatever superhuman powers you have to see beyond the framerate of what human eyes can process.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You can see above a 100 FPS, buy a 120Hz LCD or simply a high-resolution CRT set to a lower resolution with a very high resfresh-rate. Also someone will probably post the obligatory-URL regarding this subject. I can't watch the video so I don't know things are done, but it is possible that with FPS they also mean input-polling, in which case you really do want as high an FPS as possible.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    A max_fps command would solve that. Let the players set it to what they like.
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I definitely agree that players should have the option to modify their max fps, but I'm not sure it really matters.

    100fps is such an incredibly higher number that it really doesn't matter. Nobody is even close to 100 fps performance in NS2 games. And if you were, you'd never be able to tell the difference going above 100 fps.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I would say its pretty important, i can notice a huge difference between 100 fps in NS1 vs 125/200, and not just in smoothness. If they feel the need to hard cap it i think most players would be fine with a 200 cap, or 150 even. But I do think a simple console command would work well enough.
  • PyromaniacPyromaniac Join Date: 2009-02-20 Member: 66498Members
    If it's for performance reasons, a default cap that can be changed with a console command like in source games is ideal.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1943205:date=Jun 14 2012, 01:37 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 14 2012, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody is even close to 100 fps performance in NS2 games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's what bill gates said about 640k of memory. Who's laughing now...
  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1943202:date=Jun 13 2012, 08:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A max_fps command would solve that. Let the players set it to what they like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    this please. in games that allow it i set mine to 80 to allow for those slight dips that aren't noticeable.
  • Arkahm719Arkahm719 Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151988Members
    Werent they talking about a fps cap for the main menu? I could have sworn thats what they were talking about, not a cap for normal gameplay.
  • ArkantiArkanti pub baddie Join Date: 2011-07-22 Member: 111781Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1943220:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:18 PM:name=Arkahm719)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkahm719 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Werent they talking about a fps cap for the main menu? I could have sworn thats what they were talking about, not a cap for normal gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    I think the game is capped at 100fps as well...
  • ArkantiArkanti pub baddie Join Date: 2011-07-22 Member: 111781Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Mmm just watching it again, he does say "We're aiming to cap everything at 100 fps" but this was amidst the discussion for limiting the menu FPS, so perhaps there was some confusion here.
  • Master BlasterMaster Blaster Join Date: 2012-03-17 Member: 148908Banned
    edited June 2012
    To get 100 FPS right now you'd need a graphics card and CPU made in the same time period in which NS2 takes place.
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    Hey OP. I am not sure if you know this but the human eye can only comprehend about 60-70 FPS (Go look it up if you don't believe me). Any amount of frames past 70 and your brain simply cannot tell the difference. So, really this isn't that big of a deal at all. Monitors with higher than 60hz is just a marketing ploy to be honest.

    And for the record I played counter-strike 1.6 competitively for many years and developer mode was banned and you would be suspended if caught using it. Also raising the FPS cap in the half-life engine actually slowed down the gamespeed by a noticeable amount which I would consider bad, and not helpful if you are trying to be quick and precise.

    So, I am not sure what you are complaining about to be honest.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Arguing about how many frames per second the human eye can honestly perceive is pointless tbh, you will get 100 different opinions and facts. The reason developer is banned in CS has nothing to due with higher framecounts, and simply comes down to how movement/delays are handled in goldsource (NS1 had the same problems, leading the specific framerates being the most beneficial). If people could run the game at higher framerates im sure that they would, the benefits are noticeable.

    For the record, I did some testing with framerates/hz in NS1, and each increase in hz was noticeable up to 150hz. I even tested loading a random config by mashing buttons, and I could always tell which one it was almost instantly, and that was between profiles of 100, 120, 150hz. I did all that testing when running NS1 at 200 fps.

    I no longer have the crt that could do that, but loading up games on my new lcd i can instantly tell (even on main menus) if the game reset my hz to 60 instead of 120.

    Saying that it doesnt matter is your personal opinion, however I can assure you that it is quite noticeable to me, and others.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    The 100 FPS cap is not set in stone... Obviously people with 120hz monitors will want to exploit their hardware (once we get there in performance) and this can be changed :).
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    edited June 2012
    Well we'll have to see what happens...
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    In a well designed engine/game, fps increases will not effect movementspeed/firespeed or anything... Clearly your going to keep believe those 'facts', but honestly i have seen different studies that produced different findings, so I am not very likely to believe any of them, I only believe what I see with my own eyes.... Regardless this argument was what I wanted to avoid and still was brought up, and is irrelevant now as it appears they will allow for higher fps limits.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1943237:date=Jun 14 2012, 06:14 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 14 2012, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am just stating scientific fact... not opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You are spouting pure bull######. Go google "human eye fps" and read for a while. The human eye can see far more than 100fps.

    Even when using 60hz monitor having FPS above that is still beneficial for mouse movement.
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    Meh, dragon is probably right now that I think of it... haha
  • PyromaniacPyromaniac Join Date: 2009-02-20 Member: 66498Members
    edited June 2012
    good to hear ns2hd.

    adhd you're not stating scientific fact at all, cite your sources if you're going to make that claim. I'm also pretty sure you're confusing the cutoff for non-flicker on crts because after that interval the phosphors stay consistently lit. Visualization of motion is not limited to an fps.
  • meb3meb3 Join Date: 2011-06-23 Member: 106078Members
    power nodes are a bad idea
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1943244:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:56 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Jun 14 2012, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->good to hear ns2hd.

    adhd you're not stating scientific fact at all, cite your sources if you're going to make that claim. I'm also pretty sure you're confusing the cutoff for non-flicker on crts because after that interval the phosphors stay consistently lit. Visualization of motion is not limited to an fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I used to sell big screen tv's (LCD, plasma, etc) at sears for 5 years. A lot of the information I got was through literature and training I received while working there. So, that's my source if you really want to know...
  • PyromaniacPyromaniac Join Date: 2009-02-20 Member: 66498Members
    edited June 2012
    Your scientific source is your manager at sears. ok. I wonder what that literature looks like now that their store is full of 120+hz tvs (which are lame because they're interpolated frames by the way).
  • meb3meb3 Join Date: 2011-06-23 Member: 106078Members
    edited June 2012
    <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->I am tedious and attention-seeking.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    Obviously there should be a command to increase the max fps, but I think 100 FPS is fine - not that any of us could dream of reaching that with NS2. Top end hardware seems to be needed just for 40fps.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
    +1

    Difference between 60 fps and 125 is heaven and hell in NS1.
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1943211:date=Jun 13 2012, 08:21 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's what bill gates said about 640k of memory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No he didn't. Find me a source or a reputable person who claims to have heard him say "640k ought to be enough for anybody" or any variation with similar meaning.
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