<!--quoteo(post=1947102:date=Jun 27 2012, 05:32 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Jun 27 2012, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, a lot of games when maries have JP's aliens still win. Even some times when they have map control. Jp's are just riht in my opinion. Also ans skulk +leap i have killed JP mariens easier then normal because there movment is predictable<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This only happens if the teams are strongly skill stacked to aliens side really. Any decent marine team will win once they have jetpacks if both sides are equally skilled.
<!--quoteo(post=1947178:date=Jun 28 2012, 05:07 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Jun 28 2012, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When animals catch flying prey they bring them down to the ground with their own weight. Skulks should do the same.
If a skulk lands a bite on a flying marines it should automaticly lock jaw and should drag the JPer the ground. Touching the ground auto enables rapid chomping again.
JPers can Rifle butt Lockjawed Skulks off in mid air.
I like that idea. Maybe not the whole lock jaw thing, but a registered hit affecting a marine's flying pattern, either bringing him down just a bit or something similar. Because lock-jaw-drop-floor is too much, as even now marines with jetpacks die, its not like they're completely indestructible.
<!--quoteo(post=1947207:date=Jun 28 2012, 02:25 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 28 2012, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This only happens if the teams are strongly skill stacked to aliens side really. Any decent marine team will win once they have jetpacks if both sides are equally skilled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe. I think with jetpacks, if you're turtling on 1 RT then you're most likely going to lose. If the marines are hitting jetpacks with decent upgrades (2-1 or such) and aren't getting owned on res then they should be winning nearly every game. I find that marines typically win if they're holding ~3 RTs when they get jetpacks, regardless of how well aliens have done.
<!--quoteo(post=1947290:date=Jun 28 2012, 07:50 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 28 2012, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe. I think with jetpacks, if you're turtling on 1 RT then you're most likely going to lose. If the marines are hitting jetpacks with decent upgrades (2-1 or such) and aren't getting owned on res then they should be winning nearly every game. I find that marines typically win if they're holding ~3 RTs when they get jetpacks, regardless of how well aliens have done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, jetpacks aren't going to win a game where the marines are getting destroyed and can't leave their base, but they can rapidly swing a game in favour of the marines. Letting skulks counter jetpacks is interesting. It would help give them more of a role late game (grab the flying marine!) and it wouldn't massively weaken jetpacks (it's not super easy to grab a jetpacker as a skulk. It's doable, but obviously much more difficult to actually land a hit on a jetpack than a regular marine). It would give a skulk who's lost all his Pres or something an important role to play in a fight involving jetpacks and fades/onos, without making skulks significantly more powerful (especially in the earlier parts of the game where this change would be non-existent) or more capable of killing.
it shifts the balance too much. i played a game yesterday where the aliens were dominating marines, holding them to 2-3 res nodes (and usually the 2nd/3rd one was killed within a couple minutes), and had most of the map + upgrades, multiple lifeforms/fades/onos. jetpacks came out and the marines roflstomped us. it was super lame.
In my experience as both marine and alien, I feel like jetpackers don't spend enough time on the ground. I vote to make the cooldown before they can take back off from an empty tank longer and give them a little more fuel to compensate.
The new changes to fade and skulk are nice, they help in some regards but all marines buy shotgun after its recent spread decrease and that just b*tch slaps a fade and skulk right in the face a few times while a marine just sits there and touches himself furiously. Onos aren't even used anymore unless your sieging a base with them, but in a pub match that kind of team work is unheard of so as a broken feature I can't say. Anyone else remembering that marines are still going to be getting mechs? Marines already dump all over aliens when a protolab goes up, it won't be pretty.
<!--quoteo(post=1947572:date=Jun 28 2012, 09:37 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 28 2012, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The $100 question - does the removal of the fade blink / swipe cooldown improve the fade against jetpackers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you no longer feel helpless against them as a fade, but it takes a damn good player to hit them regardless due to the acceleration and air friction. But really, NOTICEABLY better.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
Its a good thing we don't use "damn good players" to judge our minimum skill floor.. :trollface:
But seriously.. we both know how this isn't easy enough for front page steam release players on day one of 1.0.. right? You know, the people that will comprise of the majority of NS2 sales?
Here's hoping once Exo goes in public builds, people will call for a little less JP recharging, as yeah, okay, its fun to be a marine when you have one but being on the receiving end is just frustrating - and thus hopefully people will call for a change in the name of balance and not novelty.
edit: Performance is a huge factor here, obviously. So even a temporary change would be welcomed. (like so many others that are made for this reason :stares angrily at lerk speed:)
Jet Packs shouldn't be easier to kill, but they need a cost increase. 10res is just too cheap. Once JPs go up I usually have one for the rest of the game, public or not.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
Cost affects frequency - not PvP interaction. And this is what people are referring to when they say jetpacks aren't counterable. Otherwise it'd be "JP are too frequent."
I reiterate: some are afraid of the nerf bat hitting features that they enjoy or are fun to play - and can therefore can sometimes turn a blind eye to balance, or at the very least not prioritize it equally. Example: 26 speed lerks would be FUN AS HELL for me.. but i know it'd be super OP.
How about you only recharge JP while on the ground? It seems to me that the mid air refuelling contributes in a big part to them being so hard to catch.
<!--quoteo(post=1947588:date=Jun 29 2012, 12:18 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 29 2012, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cost affects frequency - not PvP interaction. And this is what people are referring to when they say jetpacks aren't counterable. Otherwise it'd be "JP are too frequent."
I reiterate: some are afraid of the nerf bat hitting features that they enjoy or are fun to play - and can therefore can sometimes turn a blind eye to balance, or at the very least not prioritize it equally. Example: 26 speed lerks would be FUN AS HELL for me.. but i know it'd be super OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But frequency(cost) and PvP interaction are entwined.
If JPs cost very little (like they do now), you can bet that pretty much every PvP interaction from then on is going to consist of a squad of 5 marines all with jp. And so JPs would have to be balanced with the understanding that the whole team is likely going to have them all the time. They have to be counterable by multiple alien classes, etc.
But if JPs cost a lot more (lets say 30res instead of 10), then most interactions are going to consist of say 4-3 footsoldiers and 1-2 JPs. Now you don't need the entire alien team to be able to deal with JPs. There's fewer of them on the field at a time, and so the aliens can have more limited counters which they can deploy strategically as needed.
Now if people want to save up and all go JP at the same time, thus apparently circumventing the cost/frequency tradeoff, the aliens need to press the advantage while the rines are saving up. This is analogous to an RTS where one side chooses to build a weaker army and tech harder than his opponent, hoping to be able to hold out long enough to bust out a lot of expensive units later.
<!--quoteo(post=1947588:date=Jun 28 2012, 09:18 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 28 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cost affects frequency - not PvP interaction. And this is what people are referring to when they say jetpacks aren't counterable. Otherwise it'd be "JP are too frequent."
I reiterate: some are afraid of the nerf bat hitting features that they enjoy or are fun to play - and can therefore can sometimes turn a blind eye to balance, or at the very least not prioritize it equally. Example: 26 speed lerks would be FUN AS HELL for me.. but i know it'd be super OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need for a nerf, it's not a JP problem. Things like blink and leap attack delays, and crap performance/lag compensation are what makes it bad.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Interaction is the issue - frequency just compounds / highlights it. That's the only way they are entwined. It should be balanced enough that fighting said 5 JPers is more difficult than grounded ones - but not so overpowered that its frustrating for the receiving end and considered non counterable by the community - which is what has been said.
You WILL end up with a team of Exos.. does this mean you increase their cost so that only 2 or 3 marines per team can afford one and thus its easier to deal with as aliens? Just as you suggest with JPers? No, you balance the fundamentals to account for all scenarios - i.e. PvP interaction. Then adjust frequency as desired. Balancing a game around the notion of assumptions of static frequencies for a game that scales from 2 to 32 players is asinine.
Frequency merely highlights the issue. And the issue is the actual PvP interaction.
@chicken, delays have been removed, performance wont be fixed overnight, hence i once again suggest addressing the OP Jetpacking ala what 1dominator suggests
@1dominator: exactly. currently its 0.7 seconds, regardless of in air or not.. this means i can travel halfway across summit (dc to Xrd) without landing.. all while 1 shotting the skulks and 2 shotting the fades below me.<b> Its OP in this regard, imho.</b>
all thats needed to fix jetpacks is better teamplay, and small tweaks to leap and blink... Lerk bite is already really powerful against jetpacks because of the relative difficulty to med them. That plus an improved leap and more controllable air blink would allow jetpacks to be much more fightable, along with other improvements to interpolation and tickrate.
<!--quoteo(post=1947605:date=Jun 29 2012, 12:54 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 29 2012, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Interaction is the issue - frequency just compounds / highlights it. That's the only way they are entwined. It should be balanced enough that fighting said 5 JPers is more difficult than grounded ones - but not so overpowered that its frustrating for the receiving end and considered non counterable by the community - which is what has been said.
You WILL end up with a team of Exos.. does this mean you increase their cost so that only 2 or 3 marines per team can afford one and thus its easier to deal with as aliens? Just as you suggest with JPers? No, you balance the fundamentals to account for all scenarios - i.e. PvP interaction. Then adjust frequency as desired. Balancing a game around the notion of assumptions of static frequencies for a game that scales from 2 to 32 players is asinine.
Frequency merely highlights the issue. And the issue is the actual PvP interaction.
@chicken, delays have been removed, performance wont be fixed overnight, hence i once again suggest addressing the OP Jetpacking ala what 1dominator suggests
@1dominator: exactly. currently its 0.7 seconds, regardless of in air or not.. this means i can travel halfway across summit (dc to Xrd) without landing.. all while 1 shotting the skulks and 2 shotting the fades below me.<b> Its OP in this regard, imho.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see it as analogous to zerg players asking how to counter 200 supply of void rays in sc2. For those that aren't familiar, its a very powerful air unit that can attack air and ground. Nearly uncounterable in mass.
The answer? "How did you let them tech up for that long and gather that much resources without killing them?!?"
If the entire marine team is saving up for exo then one of the following is true: 1. The aren't buying shotguns, gl, jp, etc. for a long time. Aliens have the advantage, go kill them! 2. The own most of the map, giving them the res flow to save for exo while still getting shotty, jp, gl, etc. Sorry, but you got outplayed. Time for a hail mary, or a gg.
Now, the issue right now is that the economy and costs are so off that "whole team goes jp" requires no prior sacrifice on terms of saving up. Its as if protoss could get an army of void rays 10 minutes into the game while still having the resources to have a normal army to defend themselves up to that point.
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
I think you've got a good point there Typhon. Starcraft 2, for instance, works with timings. You decide on a tactic, depending on <b>when</b> you think an enemy does something and try to time your counter to resolve it.
This, ofcourse, is very high level play and cannot be used in public NS2 games. The basic concept, however, can be applied. If marines hoard their resources, just rush them early and force them to spend some cash to defend themselves.
It's hard to balance around that, though. I'll give you that.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1947702:date=Jun 29 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jun 29 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nearly uncounterable in mass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "It should be balanced enough that fighting said 5 JPers is more difficult than grounded ones - but not so overpowered that its frustratingly non counterable"
5 onos can still be countered with some jetpacks, GLs, Shotguns, and maybe some turrets if you were pro active, not to mention beaconing.. <i>And the onos gets a lot of crap for not being easily countered.</i>
It should give the other team the advantage for being that risky and going for a Mass tech solution - but it should by no means be uncounterable.
And what is going on here, is you are assuming that it is uncounterable merely by its frequency of use - but if you check the forums back before everything was tres and resources were tighter, Jetpacks were still consistently called un counterable by the community even without mass use.
What does this mean? The issue IS the interaction - and its just being highlighted by mass use. Addressing merely the frequency of use will simply result in <i>fewer </i>frustrating encounters with an uncounterable interaction. Fix the issue, then fix the frequency.
<!--quoteo(post=1947764:date=Jun 29 2012, 02:27 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 29 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What does this mean? The issue IS the interaction - and its just being highlighted by mass use. Addressing merely the frequency of use will simply result in <i>fewer </i>frustrating encounters with an uncounterable interaction. Fix the issue, then fix the frequency.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point, I agree now. Fix the interaction first then tune the frequency so as to get the feel right.
In b211/b212 the regen starts up late enough so you don't really regen while bouncing around. You don't start regenerating fuel until you've let go of space for 0.7s. In most areas, this effectively means that you only regenerate fuel on the ground. In all areas, you only regenerate fuel when you stop using your jetpack.
<!--quoteo(post=1947735:date=Jun 29 2012, 01:12 PM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Jun 29 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Deus ex MÄchinÄ?</i>
Jetpacks aren't a god out of the machine, they're machines from god (the commander, through the agency of his emanation, the proto-lab)
So,
<i>MÄchinae de deÅ</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, I knew when I posted this I was going to have to own up for the topic name. I wasn't referring to the latin translation, but more the theatrical convention. Wikipedia defines it well:
<i>Deus Ex Machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.</i>
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
@gorgeous: thats the way its been for many many versions now.. according to sewlek, who programmed it. Its been like that near the time when he first implemented the JP.
<!--quoteo(post=1947898:date=Jun 29 2012, 11:10 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 29 2012, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@gorgeous: thats the way its been for many many versions now.. according to sewlek, who programmed it. Its been like that near the time when he first implemented the JP.
So.. no changes there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but it's pretty much already what you're asking for. That jetpacks can't recharge in the air.
<!--quoteo(post=1947807:date=Jun 30 2012, 06:20 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 30 2012, 06:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, I knew when I posted this I was going to have to own up for the topic name. I wasn't referring to the latin translation, but more the theatrical convention. Wikipedia defines it well:
<i>Deus Ex Machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.</i>
Comments
This only happens if the teams are strongly skill stacked to aliens side really. Any decent marine team will win once they have jetpacks if both sides are equally skilled.
If a skulk lands a bite on a flying marines it should automaticly lock jaw and should drag the JPer the ground. Touching the ground auto enables rapid chomping again.
JPers can Rifle butt Lockjawed Skulks off in mid air.
Something lke this.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGXifimyluw&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGXifimyluw...feature=related</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea. Maybe not the whole lock jaw thing, but a registered hit affecting a marine's flying pattern, either bringing him down just a bit or something similar. Because lock-jaw-drop-floor is too much, as even now marines with jetpacks die, its not like they're completely indestructible.
Maybe. I think with jetpacks, if you're turtling on 1 RT then you're most likely going to lose. If the marines are hitting jetpacks with decent upgrades (2-1 or such) and aren't getting owned on res then they should be winning nearly every game. I find that marines typically win if they're holding ~3 RTs when they get jetpacks, regardless of how well aliens have done.
That's also my experience so far.
Anyone else remembering that marines are still going to be getting mechs? Marines already dump all over aliens when a protolab goes up, it won't be pretty.
Yes, you no longer feel helpless against them as a fade, but it takes a damn good player to hit them regardless due to the acceleration and air friction. But really, NOTICEABLY better.
:trollface:
But seriously.. we both know how this isn't easy enough for front page steam release players on day one of 1.0.. right? You know, the people that will comprise of the majority of NS2 sales?
Here's hoping once Exo goes in public builds, people will call for a little less JP recharging, as yeah, okay, its fun to be a marine when you have one but being on the receiving end is just frustrating - and thus hopefully people will call for a change in the name of balance and not novelty.
edit: Performance is a huge factor here, obviously. So even a temporary change would be welcomed. (like so many others that are made for this reason :stares angrily at lerk speed:)
I reiterate: some are afraid of the nerf bat hitting features that they enjoy or are fun to play - and can therefore can sometimes turn a blind eye to balance, or at the very least not prioritize it equally. Example: 26 speed lerks would be FUN AS HELL for me.. but i know it'd be super OP.
I reiterate: some are afraid of the nerf bat hitting features that they enjoy or are fun to play - and can therefore can sometimes turn a blind eye to balance, or at the very least not prioritize it equally. Example: 26 speed lerks would be FUN AS HELL for me.. but i know it'd be super OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's both. too frequent, and too powerful.
If JPs cost very little (like they do now), you can bet that pretty much every PvP interaction from then on is going to consist of a squad of 5 marines all with jp. And so JPs would have to be balanced with the understanding that the whole team is likely going to have them all the time. They have to be counterable by multiple alien classes, etc.
But if JPs cost a lot more (lets say 30res instead of 10), then most interactions are going to consist of say 4-3 footsoldiers and 1-2 JPs. Now you don't need the entire alien team to be able to deal with JPs. There's fewer of them on the field at a time, and so the aliens can have more limited counters which they can deploy strategically as needed.
Now if people want to save up and all go JP at the same time, thus apparently circumventing the cost/frequency tradeoff, the aliens need to press the advantage while the rines are saving up. This is analogous to an RTS where one side chooses to build a weaker army and tech harder than his opponent, hoping to be able to hold out long enough to bust out a lot of expensive units later.
I reiterate: some are afraid of the nerf bat hitting features that they enjoy or are fun to play - and can therefore can sometimes turn a blind eye to balance, or at the very least not prioritize it equally. Example: 26 speed lerks would be FUN AS HELL for me.. but i know it'd be super OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need for a nerf, it's not a JP problem. Things like blink and leap attack delays, and crap performance/lag compensation are what makes it bad.
Also +1 to Typhon
It should be balanced enough that fighting said 5 JPers is more difficult than grounded ones - but not so overpowered that its frustrating for the receiving end and considered non counterable by the community - which is what has been said.
You WILL end up with a team of Exos.. does this mean you increase their cost so that only 2 or 3 marines per team can afford one and thus its easier to deal with as aliens? Just as you suggest with JPers? No, you balance the fundamentals to account for all scenarios - i.e. PvP interaction. Then adjust frequency as desired. Balancing a game around the notion of assumptions of static frequencies for a game that scales from 2 to 32 players is asinine.
Frequency merely highlights the issue. And the issue is the actual PvP interaction.
@chicken, delays have been removed, performance wont be fixed overnight, hence i once again suggest addressing the OP Jetpacking ala what 1dominator suggests
@1dominator: exactly. currently its 0.7 seconds, regardless of in air or not.. this means i can travel halfway across summit (dc to Xrd) without landing.. all while 1 shotting the skulks and 2 shotting the fades below me.<b> Its OP in this regard, imho.</b>
It should be balanced enough that fighting said 5 JPers is more difficult than grounded ones - but not so overpowered that its frustrating for the receiving end and considered non counterable by the community - which is what has been said.
You WILL end up with a team of Exos.. does this mean you increase their cost so that only 2 or 3 marines per team can afford one and thus its easier to deal with as aliens? Just as you suggest with JPers? No, you balance the fundamentals to account for all scenarios - i.e. PvP interaction. Then adjust frequency as desired. Balancing a game around the notion of assumptions of static frequencies for a game that scales from 2 to 32 players is asinine.
Frequency merely highlights the issue. And the issue is the actual PvP interaction.
@chicken, delays have been removed, performance wont be fixed overnight, hence i once again suggest addressing the OP Jetpacking ala what 1dominator suggests
@1dominator: exactly. currently its 0.7 seconds, regardless of in air or not.. this means i can travel halfway across summit (dc to Xrd) without landing.. all while 1 shotting the skulks and 2 shotting the fades below me.<b> Its OP in this regard, imho.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see it as analogous to zerg players asking how to counter 200 supply of void rays in sc2. For those that aren't familiar, its a very powerful air unit that can attack air and ground. Nearly uncounterable in mass.
The answer? "How did you let them tech up for that long and gather that much resources without killing them?!?"
If the entire marine team is saving up for exo then one of the following is true:
1. The aren't buying shotguns, gl, jp, etc. for a long time. Aliens have the advantage, go kill them!
2. The own most of the map, giving them the res flow to save for exo while still getting shotty, jp, gl, etc. Sorry, but you got outplayed. Time for a hail mary, or a gg.
Now, the issue right now is that the economy and costs are so off that "whole team goes jp" requires no prior sacrifice on terms of saving up. Its as if protoss could get an army of void rays 10 minutes into the game while still having the resources to have a normal army to defend themselves up to that point.
This, ofcourse, is very high level play and cannot be used in public NS2 games. The basic concept, however, can be applied. If marines hoard their resources, just rush them early and force them to spend some cash to defend themselves.
It's hard to balance around that, though. I'll give you that.
Jetpacks aren't a god out of the machine, they're machines from god (the commander, through the agency of his emanation, the proto-lab)
So,
<i>MÄchinae de deÅ</i>
Jetpacks aren't a god out of the machine, they're machines from god (the commander, through the agency of his emanation, the proto-lab)
So,
<i>MÄchinae de deÅ</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But since they improve the marine this much, you could argue that the jetpack makes the marine godlike.
"It should be balanced enough that fighting said 5 JPers is more difficult than grounded ones - but not so overpowered that its frustratingly non counterable"
5 onos can still be countered with some jetpacks, GLs, Shotguns, and maybe some turrets if you were pro active, not to mention beaconing.. <i>And the onos gets a lot of crap for not being easily countered.</i>
It should give the other team the advantage for being that risky and going for a Mass tech solution - but it should by no means be uncounterable.
And what is going on here, is you are assuming that it is uncounterable merely by its frequency of use - but if you check the forums back before everything was tres and resources were tighter, Jetpacks were still consistently called un counterable by the community even without mass use.
What does this mean? The issue IS the interaction - and its just being highlighted by mass use. Addressing merely the frequency of use will simply result in <i>fewer </i>frustrating encounters with an uncounterable interaction. Fix the issue, then fix the frequency.
Good point, I agree now. Fix the interaction first then tune the frequency so as to get the feel right.
In b211/b212 the regen starts up late enough so you don't really regen while bouncing around. You don't start regenerating fuel until you've let go of space for 0.7s. In most areas, this effectively means that you only regenerate fuel on the ground. In all areas, you only regenerate fuel when you stop using your jetpack.
Jetpacks aren't a god out of the machine, they're machines from god (the commander, through the agency of his emanation, the proto-lab)
So,
<i>MÄchinae de deÅ</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, I knew when I posted this I was going to have to own up for the topic name. I wasn't referring to the latin translation, but more the theatrical convention. Wikipedia defines it well:
<i>Deus Ex Machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.</i>
Felt fitting.
So.. no changes there.
So.. no changes there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but it's pretty much already what you're asking for. That jetpacks can't recharge in the air.
<i>Deus Ex Machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.</i>
Felt fitting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't take it as a criticism, I was making a joke in an attempt to provoke the Latin nerds on this forum. (I know there are some).
It was pretty obvious what you meant.