pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Resupply is just too bad compared to original combat.
I can understand that a stronger one would be overpowered as first upgrade, but then at least make an additional Resupply lvl 2 upgrade for late game.
Resupply is just too bad compared to original combat.
I can understand that a stronger one would be overpowered as first upgrade, but then at least make an additional Resupply lvl 2 upgrade for late game.
also aliens have the chance to get more upgrades than vanilla, were as marines cannot get anything that isnt in vanilla. I think armory needs to weld armor as well as heal, Also consider ar 4 and wep 4.
Seems like aliens win most of the time. The balance does feel off
Combat mod in NS2 has always been that way. Same with NS2: Combat by FLG. Aliens have always won a lot more in my memory.
Marines get pretty much max tech as vanilla NS2, but aliens get to mix and match all upgrades. That is one reason. It is fun though. Another might be that alien lifeforms can go full aggressive and not worry much about dying, which gives them a lot of power too.
also aliens have the chance to get more upgrades than vanilla, were as marines cannot get anything that isnt in vanilla. I think armory needs to weld armor as well as heal, Also consider ar 4 and wep 4.
old ns1 combat even had a wep5 if i remember correctly. they were uranium ammo tier 1+2.
again, if memory serves me well, you'd get your first medpack the instant you take damage, then it was throttled to like 1MP/3-5sec.
they were given automatically, without having to request anything
@Nintendows Thanks for the mod revival. Some feedback: xenocide is too strong because too easy to access, maybe having 3 ability levels to unlock it rather than of 2, would make more sense because like stomp it's a 3rd hive upgrades. Also, exo damage output seemed a bit low (both of them).
alien lifeforms can go full aggressive and not worry much about dying
Marines can do the same.
That said it's pretty lame I think. It'd be better off gameplay wise that there was some personal penalty for dying (other than giving XP I mean) like for instance a lost lifeform or weapon set you back 1 point.
@Nintendows Thanks for the mod revival. Some feedback: xenocide is too strong because too easy to access, maybe having 3 ability levels to unlock it rather than of 2, would make more sense because like stomp it's a 3rd hive upgrades. Also, exo damage output seemed a bit low (both of them).
If there is a tier 3 ability added I would like Advanced metabolize to be added to that. ADV meta is so strong for any fade to be bought for 2 points. Once they get it they basically get Adren and regen, then once they actually get adren and regen they can survive forever theoretically if they dont get too greedy. So for Tier 2 it will still be metabolize but just the normal variation that gives energy.
old ns1 combat even had a wep5 if i remember correctly. they were uranium ammo tier 1+2.
They did this in the Standalone too, honestly, it didn't help all that much tbh.
All a question of balance...
In ns1 xmenu you had usually minimum 5 Upgrades per type but 5 was the common setting
Uranium - more dmg
advanced ammo - more maxammo and ammo per clip
advanced armor - more armor
nano-armor - regenerating 2 armor per second per level
cyberlegs - faster marines
static-shock... - this cost 2 levels and worked like electrified RTs in ns1... which can give off an electric shock every 2 seconds and lower the HP by a %-Value... which was strong since aliens could have insane amounts of HP ^^
All in all it was somehow balanced - but it was probably not easy to get to that point^^
In general I refrained from using uranium since there was no such thing as shuffle... and tried to have fun with regenerated armor, more ammo and moving more quickly instead of getting uranium X ^^
In general I refrained from using uranium since there was no such thing as shuffle... and tried to have fun with regenerated armor, more ammo and moving more quickly instead of getting uranium X ^^
Thanks for all your work relaunching combat. It has been awesome to be able to play a few rounds of combat again.
If the idea is to keep combat gameplay as similar as possible to vanilla (to be a possible way of training) then I would suggest to remove the possibility of taking simultaneously both upgrades of same hive type like carapace/regeneration or celerity/adrenaline.
If you don't want that limitation, then i would suggest to add an upgrade for marines to regain armor while out of combat or the old "I can weld myself when looking down"
alien lifeforms can go full aggressive and not worry much about dying
Marines can do the same.
That said it's pretty lame I think. It'd be better off gameplay wise that there was some personal penalty for dying (other than giving XP I mean) like for instance a lost lifeform or weapon set you back 1 point.
That would make the mod less fun for me. I have always enjoyed the zaney arcade fun that is combat.
As much as I think that the lack of limitations on aliens is really imbalanced, I think it is half of the fun. There is a point where imbalance becomes unfun, and that point is different for different people. Balance does not equal fun. I hope that any attempts to balance do not also ruin the fun of the mod. Saying this, trying to make the mod more balanced wouldn't be a bad thing.
That would make the mod less fun for me. I have always enjoyed the zaney arcade fun that is combat.
As much as I think that the lack of limitations on aliens is really imbalanced, I think it is half of the fun. There is a point where imbalance becomes unfun, and that point is different for different people. Balance does not equal fun. I hope that any attempts to balance do not also ruin the fun of the mod. Saying this, trying to make the mod more balanced wouldn't be a bad thing.
Ok it is cool to have that freedom forget my previous idea. But sometimes one single player through the same repetitive action little by little finishes the chair/hive is that intended?
Those tactics may work better for lerks as they can dodge around the CC while biting though in the absolute marines can GL spam from afar and it also works quite well
So I dont think it's even about balance yet, it's weither or not you want to allow silly tactics to work.
Personally I'd say the overtime mechanic has something broken about it. Maybe the healing rate of chair/hive should not completely stop but only decrease so that it can still absorb a few blind hits.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I think overtime is necessary, but it does feel a bit weird indeed.
Players of opposing teams just rushing past each other to reach cc/hive for some unrepairable damage.
Maybe change it to double player damage vs cc/hive during overtime (or what ever modifier is necessary to end the game quicker and encourage players to cause structure damage).
That way the more aggressive team forces the other team to invest more time into repairing instead of attacking/defending and can finally wear it down.
NintendowsJoin Date: 2016-11-07Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue
I'll maybe do a balance pass next week.
There's another reason players rush past each other to reach the cc/hive: respawn time and location. Players you kill revive nearly instantly, and they also revive in the perfect location to defend their base. I would like to try changing the maps somehow so that players spawn a little ways away from their hive/cc, but I don't think that's possible...
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
That would be awesome Nin.
If I remember correctly, wave spawn in NS1 Combat took longer. Increasing with number of dead players.
So you are right about the spawning. There isnt enough time to attack cc/hive between spawn waves.
Agreed. As of right now there is no reason to attack chair/hive until overtime occurs. Given the chance players will strike bases between waves which pushes the other team into defense but currently everyone is on the offense as there is no reason not to be.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Nin you're dead right about that being an issue. Killing the enemy hinders your progress in killing the objective. Not sure if any other game spawns you at the objetive you're trying to defend. Surely a spawn room that's tacked on the back of the techpoint room would work as a test?
What about semi-random structures scattered on the map? For eg. armory for marines and crag/shift for aliens. Teams would gain additional points for destroying these structures, and if enough points are collected, one team wins.
Maybe even simpler, destroying a structure would decrease the max HP for the command structure. Like, destroy 5/5 enemy support buildings, and their command structure will only have 50% max HP.
Or with whatever numbers, you get the basic idea :P
It would introduce a bit of strategy to the game, even though players could not use abilities of those structures.
NintendowsJoin Date: 2016-11-07Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue
I put up a small bug fix and balance tweak patch. @GhoulofGSG9 has been making a ton of progress on an overhaul of the mod that we'll be testing this weekend, but in the mean time:
Added the Machine Gun. I made it cost 1 level but requires the shotgun first, like the GL and FT.
Replaced single Rail Gun with Dual Rail Gun. It still costs the same and is still limited to 1 max on the team.
Fixed the spawning code so that wave-based spawning happens
A few other bugs are fixed here and there, and ghoul's patch fixes a lot more. Hopefully we'll get that tested and published soon
Somebody *please* make a duel/doubles map for this gamemode!
NS2 was my first competitive shooter, I had to move on though as I felt the scene decline a bit. So I have been playing arena shooters, namely quake and variants. And the one thing about quake that appeals to me, is duels. NS2 always lacked a duel mode in my mind, not only do you have the satisfaction of knowing that you won based on your own skills and your own skills alone. No feeding, no carrying, just you. But you also completely bypass the excruciating wait time of seeding a 10v10 server. All you need is ONE player. You can organise that outside the game too.
I don't know how many people are even remotely interested in this in the scene right now, but I AM for one! All I ask is one map with duel(1v1) in mind, maybe doubles(2v2). I wouldn't even mind copy-pasting a quake map or something for this purpose.
Right now the maps are generally too big, too many vents and such so that the skulks can just bypass the marine. Laneblocking isn't an option on many combat maps. And it becomes a slow defensive snoozefest at low player counts as a result.
I can't make maps for shit myself, so that's why I'm begging in here
inb4: And OK yes, I know that the game is not well balanced for this. But we can work around this with gentlemen's agreements (ie: aliens can't bite chair for the first 3 minutes or what ever), until there's enough traction for a dedicated duel mod.
tldr; Somebody recreate aerowalk or ztn or something for NS2combatmod please! Add me on steam I'll playtest. OK thanks!
NintendowsJoin Date: 2016-11-07Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue
Another round of fixes and small balance changes for the classic combat mod. @GhoulofGSG9 put in a ton of work refactoring most of the code to use filehooks and fixed a bunch of really annoying bugs in the process. As for balance:
Focus is back! Fear it.
To somewhat counter focus, I've put in a slow self-weld on welders if you look down at the ground.
A suicide now gives a small amount of experience to all enemies nearby. This is meant to prevent the mine spam and some gorge building spam that we were seeing. One small "problem" is that xenocide now gives a small amount of XP to all enemies nearby that survive the blast. Is it actually a problem? Send me your feedback.
Resupply now gives a large amount of health and acts more like a vanilla medpack. With focus in the game, this is probably not a problem.
NintendowsJoin Date: 2016-11-07Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue
Latest changes:
Added camo and shuffled the upgrade positions around to reflect vanilla NS2 changes
Added a short pregame time to give people a chance to load
Assist XP is no longer a flat 40% of a kill just for being nearby, but is now partially shared amongst players nearby.
Assist location is now based on the location of death instead of the location of killer. This is somewhat of a nerf to marines due to their longer attack ranges, but it also means that if you're near someone who just got a hydra/babbler kill on the other side of the map, you won't get assist XP.
A few bug fixes here and there, message cleanup, etc
Comments
The mod currently scales alien biomass with levels, which might be why marine weapons are feeling weaker. It might also be the map pool.
I can understand that a stronger one would be overpowered as first upgrade, but then at least make an additional Resupply lvl 2 upgrade for late game.
How did resupply work in the original combat?
As far as I can tell from my testing, weapon damage uses vanilla values, but aliens often have more biomass than you're normally expecting in vanilla.
Combat mod in NS2 has always been that way. Same with NS2: Combat by FLG. Aliens have always won a lot more in my memory.
Marines get pretty much max tech as vanilla NS2, but aliens get to mix and match all upgrades. That is one reason. It is fun though. Another might be that alien lifeforms can go full aggressive and not worry much about dying, which gives them a lot of power too.
old ns1 combat even had a wep5 if i remember correctly. they were uranium ammo tier 1+2.
again, if memory serves me well, you'd get your first medpack the instant you take damage, then it was throttled to like 1MP/3-5sec.
they were given automatically, without having to request anything
They did this in the Standalone too, honestly, it didn't help all that much tbh.
Marines can do the same.
That said it's pretty lame I think. It'd be better off gameplay wise that there was some personal penalty for dying (other than giving XP I mean) like for instance a lost lifeform or weapon set you back 1 point.
Several. It's in the arcade tab.
If there is a tier 3 ability added I would like Advanced metabolize to be added to that. ADV meta is so strong for any fade to be bought for 2 points. Once they get it they basically get Adren and regen, then once they actually get adren and regen they can survive forever theoretically if they dont get too greedy. So for Tier 2 it will still be metabolize but just the normal variation that gives energy.
All a question of balance...
In ns1 xmenu you had usually minimum 5 Upgrades per type but 5 was the common setting
Uranium - more dmg
advanced ammo - more maxammo and ammo per clip
advanced armor - more armor
nano-armor - regenerating 2 armor per second per level
cyberlegs - faster marines
static-shock... - this cost 2 levels and worked like electrified RTs in ns1... which can give off an electric shock every 2 seconds and lower the HP by a %-Value... which was strong since aliens could have insane amounts of HP ^^
All in all it was somehow balanced - but it was probably not easy to get to that point^^
In general I refrained from using uranium since there was no such thing as shuffle... and tried to have fun with regenerated armor, more ammo and moving more quickly instead of getting uranium X ^^
You gentle soul... i always rushed SG+W5
If the idea is to keep combat gameplay as similar as possible to vanilla (to be a possible way of training) then I would suggest to remove the possibility of taking simultaneously both upgrades of same hive type like carapace/regeneration or celerity/adrenaline.
If you don't want that limitation, then i would suggest to add an upgrade for marines to regain armor while out of combat or the old "I can weld myself when looking down"
That would make the mod less fun for me. I have always enjoyed the zaney arcade fun that is combat.
As much as I think that the lack of limitations on aliens is really imbalanced, I think it is half of the fun. There is a point where imbalance becomes unfun, and that point is different for different people. Balance does not equal fun. I hope that any attempts to balance do not also ruin the fun of the mod. Saying this, trying to make the mod more balanced wouldn't be a bad thing.
Ok it is cool to have that freedom forget my previous idea. But sometimes one single player through the same repetitive action little by little finishes the chair/hive is that intended?
Those tactics may work better for lerks as they can dodge around the CC while biting though in the absolute marines can GL spam from afar and it also works quite well
So I dont think it's even about balance yet, it's weither or not you want to allow silly tactics to work.
Personally I'd say the overtime mechanic has something broken about it. Maybe the healing rate of chair/hive should not completely stop but only decrease so that it can still absorb a few blind hits.
Players of opposing teams just rushing past each other to reach cc/hive for some unrepairable damage.
Maybe change it to double player damage vs cc/hive during overtime (or what ever modifier is necessary to end the game quicker and encourage players to cause structure damage).
That way the more aggressive team forces the other team to invest more time into repairing instead of attacking/defending and can finally wear it down.
There's another reason players rush past each other to reach the cc/hive: respawn time and location. Players you kill revive nearly instantly, and they also revive in the perfect location to defend their base. I would like to try changing the maps somehow so that players spawn a little ways away from their hive/cc, but I don't think that's possible...
If I remember correctly, wave spawn in NS1 Combat took longer. Increasing with number of dead players.
So you are right about the spawning. There isnt enough time to attack cc/hive between spawn waves.
What about semi-random structures scattered on the map? For eg. armory for marines and crag/shift for aliens. Teams would gain additional points for destroying these structures, and if enough points are collected, one team wins.
Maybe even simpler, destroying a structure would decrease the max HP for the command structure. Like, destroy 5/5 enemy support buildings, and their command structure will only have 50% max HP.
Or with whatever numbers, you get the basic idea :P
It would introduce a bit of strategy to the game, even though players could not use abilities of those structures.
- Added the Machine Gun. I made it cost 1 level but requires the shotgun first, like the GL and FT.
- Replaced single Rail Gun with Dual Rail Gun. It still costs the same and is still limited to 1 max on the team.
- Fixed the spawning code so that wave-based spawning happens
A few other bugs are fixed here and there, and ghoul's patch fixes a lot more. Hopefully we'll get that tested and published soonSomebody *please* make a duel/doubles map for this gamemode!
NS2 was my first competitive shooter, I had to move on though as I felt the scene decline a bit. So I have been playing arena shooters, namely quake and variants. And the one thing about quake that appeals to me, is duels. NS2 always lacked a duel mode in my mind, not only do you have the satisfaction of knowing that you won based on your own skills and your own skills alone. No feeding, no carrying, just you. But you also completely bypass the excruciating wait time of seeding a 10v10 server. All you need is ONE player. You can organise that outside the game too.
I don't know how many people are even remotely interested in this in the scene right now, but I AM for one! All I ask is one map with duel(1v1) in mind, maybe doubles(2v2). I wouldn't even mind copy-pasting a quake map or something for this purpose.
Right now the maps are generally too big, too many vents and such so that the skulks can just bypass the marine. Laneblocking isn't an option on many combat maps. And it becomes a slow defensive snoozefest at low player counts as a result.
I can't make maps for shit myself, so that's why I'm begging in here
inb4: And OK yes, I know that the game is not well balanced for this. But we can work around this with gentlemen's agreements (ie: aliens can't bite chair for the first 3 minutes or what ever), until there's enough traction for a dedicated duel mod.
tldr; Somebody recreate aerowalk or ztn or something for NS2combatmod please! Add me on steam I'll playtest. OK thanks!