<!--quoteo(post=1947068:date=Jun 27 2012, 05:04 PM:name=Skuggan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skuggan @ Jun 27 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is not that leap is availible from the get go. The problem is that you can get it without skipping something else. The game should revolve around choices. For example if you get early leap then you cant afford enough resnodes for cara and early blink. You can have diffrent costs for diffrent upgrades maybe leap should be 40 tres isntead because you upgrade the free unit. Going back to abilitys tied to hives seems like a step backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tbh I much prefer the abilities tied to hives as flayra said. The general problem with commander researching them is that now he commands which alien lifeform should shine and which can be less useful. You also can't tie upgrade choices to have an direct impact onto the game (besides maybe leap), it's hard to compare to other rts int hat sense.
Just to be clear, tying that stuff to Hives is not going back to the automatic "leap at hive 2" way that it worked originally. The commander still will have to make the choice to research it or not, and decide if its necessary for the team to have first over a different tier 2 ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1947059:date=Jun 27 2012, 11:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 27 2012, 11:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I largely agree. There has been a lot of experimenting with the alien upgrade system in an effort to make a more elegant system with more options, but I think the time for more experimenting is past.
So I think we'll probably end up by tying Tier 2 (eg, Leap) to 2 hives and Tier 3 (eg, Stomp) to 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, please.
I really hate not caring about hives. I really hate thinking, "whatever, we don't need a third hive anyway".
I realize this may be entirely due to past experience, when hives were important and 2nd hive completing was a cause to yay. But f*ck. Hives are BIG, important looking things! They SHOULD matter. They make all that cool noise when they die!
I don't know.
<!--quoteo(post=1947095:date=Jun 28 2012, 01:18 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 28 2012, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to be clear, tying that stuff to Hives is not going back to the automatic "leap at hive 2" way that it worked originally. The commander still will have to make the choice to research it or not, and decide if its necessary for the team to have first over a different tier 2 ability.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is all fine and well, but you should consider the fun-effect. Second hive goes up, nothing happens - compared to - Second hive goes up, yay, everyone can leap now, yay! Oh, I see, when the second hive is up I can leap! I better not let the hive die, I don't want to lose my leap! ...okay, I'm stretching it, but I just like big "events" like that. A progress bar only khamm can see ending up in a dull announcement "you guys can leap now" is not that exciting. :)
I'm a bit sad to hear this. As Skuggan said, the problem wasn't that you get it early, the problem is that you get it without sacrificing anything else. If you would just increase the cost, it could have worked. Making so aliens have to choose between different BOs is what we should strive for. Just imagine if you could start the game with asking oneself: Should one go for lots of RTs, upgrades or second hive?
Tying abilities back to hives has proven it self to work in NS1, true. But making NS1.5 shouldn't be the way to go, even though I know alot of ppl would want that. If you go back to NS1 model, it will ensure there will always only be 1 singel BO for aliens: you go every game for 1-2 RTs and then for 2nd hive, because without it: no blink, no leap, no stomp. You wont win without it. So every game will be the same: it will revolve around taking down that 2nd hive. All games will be about hive fights. Is this what we want: games to be predictable and revolve around 1 thing and 1 thing only: the second hive?
<!--quoteo(post=1947095:date=Jun 27 2012, 06:18 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 27 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to be clear, tying that stuff to Hives is not going back to the automatic "leap at hive 2" way that it worked originally. The commander still will have to make the choice to research it or not, and decide if its necessary for the team to have first over a different tier 2 ability.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. Luckily I hadn't argue with a comm about getting my abilities in the past, so I hope it works out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this what we want: games to be predictable and revolve around 1 thing and 1 thing only: the second hive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not as simple as that.
<!--quoteo(post=1947098:date=Jun 28 2012, 01:25 AM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Jun 28 2012, 01:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this what we want: games to be predictable and revolve around 1 thing and 1 thing only: the second hive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While having more options is great, I think that balancing around having all those options would prove hellish. Besides, have you ever seen a prolonged 1 hive game won by aliens? By some alternative strategy? I just don't think there is one. The 2nd hive is something you bump into eventually.
I still think they should test the current system with more balanced costs so you have to make choices as aliens. Going back to tying it to second hive will create new problems and like Scrajm says all the games will look the same. Diffrent buildorders is something I enjoy to play and spectate. It makes the game exciting.
The abilitys should be tied to the hive that upgraded them so you can destroy alien tech. Aliens then has a reason for spreading out their tech.
<!--quoteo(post=1947095:date=Jun 27 2012, 06:18 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 27 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to be clear, tying that stuff to Hives is not going back to the automatic "leap at hive 2" way that it worked originally. The commander still will have to make the choice to research it or not, and decide if its necessary for the team to have first over a different tier 2 ability.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel like the hive going up is a much more exciting event when you instantly receive a new ability. It's really tense when you're trying to defend a constructing second hive and just holding out for that last 5% so you can leap/blink/etc to save it. It really intuitively conveys the importance of that hive to all the players. Compared to that, seeing it go up and then waiting for your commander to finish some upgrades just isn't the same. It's also frustrating that it's impossible to know when your commander is going to decide that your lifeform's next ability is worthy of research. I just don't think that the upgrade choice has been adding much value so far - in reality, the community just reaches a consensus on the order of priority and follows it almost every time, just like has always been the case with most tech choices in NS1(alien chamber types, marine armor/weapon upgrades, etc).
<!--quoteo(post=1947103:date=Jun 28 2012, 01:35 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jun 28 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While having more options is great, I think that balancing around having all those options would prove hellish. Besides, have you ever seen a prolonged 1 hive game won by aliens? By some alternative strategy? I just don't think there is one. The 2nd hive is something you bump into eventually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, balance might take some time to iron out. But I think eventually UWE would find a good balance. I have faith in them in that regard, especially since they really seem to listen to the community and communicate back with us. Also, having different BOs will also ensure metagame changes, and in the long run it will prove to be more enjoyable both to watch and play. There will be so tremendously combinations of BOs on different maps, and exploring all those would probably take years! Now instead, if all games will look the same every game, how long will it take before you start getting tired to watch/play?
The only problem there was is that some stuff - like leap gets way too early into the game, which could be balanced by the maturing mechanic. (the time it takes to mature needs to take into account having a alien commander go gorge and speed it up, so to actually make the maturing process really fast it would need the commander and maybe even an additional player to gorge -> meaning 1 less player on the field which would make early pressure much harder - but still viable for certain strategies to do)
The hive 2 stuff really enforces aliens to a much more predictable build order, and its quite sad to hear that we will go back to this mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1947110:date=Jun 28 2012, 01:47 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 28 2012, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->/.../ in reality, the community just reaches a consensus on the order of priority and follows it almost every time, just like has always been the case with most tech choices in NS1(alien chamber types, marine armor/weapon upgrades, etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and this is a bad thing. How can tying abilities back to 2nd hive help with that? The reason why one as in b210 always went for leap first was due to the fact that you didn't have to sacrifice anything for leap.
And @ koruyo: having a gorge standing and healing a hive for 2 minutes just sounds boring. Also, mature process in general was bad due to the fact that the process revolves around time, and that's just bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1947113:date=Jun 27 2012, 07:00 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hive 2 stuff really enforces aliens to a much more predictable build order, and its quite sad to hear that we will go back to this mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was there ever an unpredictability in the build order of aliens? The only questions was and is, if he gets crag/shade or shift first.
<!--quoteo(post=1947114:date=Jun 27 2012, 07:05 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 27 2012, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now make something about marines require more than 1 command chair and we can have an RTS game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh no you're homogenizing the 2 sides but it's an asymmetric game!
If a RTS is about building bases at multiple locations I would prefer NS doesn't become one. I guess it would work, but I doubt it would add to the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1947119:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:13 PM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 27 2012, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh no you're homogenizing the 2 sides but it's an asymmetric game!
If a RTS is about building bases at multiple locations I would prefer NS doesn't become one. I guess it would work, but I doubt it would add to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good RTS games are about expanding (and trying to punish expansion in some way or another), or the opposite (not expanding for some momentary gain, trying to survive the resulting attack and getting ahead)
I can't think of a good RTS game where it's the norm to stay on 1 base forever, get and use a full tech tree, but that happens all the time in NS2 because of how the tech trees work.
Tying tech to number of hives/chairs is a really fake and roundabout way of achieving this, when the real problem is that "mining from a new part of the map" costs less than "making the most basic structure" - again, I can't think of a good RTS where this is true either
<!--quoteo(post=1947114:date=Jun 28 2012, 02:05 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 28 2012, 02:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now make something about marines require more than 1 command chair and we can have an RTS game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont know who the target of this troll comment is... Well, since I'm the one advocating a system which doesn't force base building for aliens and instead gives aliens choices, I guess it has to be UWE and the all of those who wants this game to be about aliens always going for 2nd hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1947117:date=Jun 27 2012, 07:11 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Jun 27 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, and this is a bad thing. How can tying abilities back to 2nd hive help with that? The reason why one as in b210 always went for leap first was due to the fact that you didn't have to sacrifice anything for leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say it would. What do you propose? My point is that the NS community barely tolerates the amount of teching choice they have as it is. Historically, adding more depth of choice like a real RTS has never really worked as intended. Tactics are more fun than strategy in a game like this IMO. It's one thing to choose which units to research in an RTS, it's another thing to choose on behalf of your team's players what roles they're allowed to play.
You know that forcing aliens on the 2nd hive also makes marine strategies much more predictable? Since you know aliens are depending on the 2nd hive - and losing it can pretty much mean gameover for them?
<!--quoteo(post=1947122:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:19 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Jun 27 2012, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont know who the target of this troll comment is... Well, since I'm the one advocating a system which doesn't force base building for aliens and instead gives aliens choices, I guess it has to be UWE and the all of those who wants this game to be about aliens always going for 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a troll comment. I'm serious - if you make one side have this mechanic, the other needs to as well (because this part of the game needs to be symmetric in order to not have 5 hour games where aliens try to bust 1basing marines and every single player leaves the server before the round ends, ala pre-194 builds)
<!--quoteo(post=1947124:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know that forcing aliens on the 2nd hive also makes marine strategies much more predictable? Since you know aliens are depending on the 2nd hive - and losing it can pretty much mean gameover for them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing is forcing aliens on a 2nd hive in this system. It just means they need more map control to use higher tech (just like how every RTS plays out practically, at high skill levels). Nothing about it means that a 2nd hive means game over for the marines, either. It's UWE's choice if they want to make it that way (like it was in the older builds), but the idea itself doesn't necessitate that.
Don't be afraid to try what every other RTS game does. It just might work if you tweak it instead of layering on hundreds of unintuitive mechanics that reward 1basing in an RTS game.
<!--quoteo(post=1947123:date=Jun 28 2012, 02:20 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 28 2012, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't say it would. What do you propose? My point is that the NS community barely tolerates the amount of teching choice they have as it is. Historically, adding more depth of choice like a real RTS has never really worked as intended. Tactics are more fun than strategy in a game like this IMO. It's one thing to choose which units to research in an RTS, it's another thing to choose on behalf of your team's players what roles they're allowed to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, teching choices for aliens in NS2 hasn't been very interesting so far. I also agree that tactics should be very important as well, but I just don't see why making sure aliens have choices takes away tactics. And I'm not suggesting alien comm (in pub) should decide what lifeforms the team should have. I'm merely advocating a system where aliens can have choices, and I think that you could build on and improve the current system we had, it just needed more tweaking to make sure it worked properly.
a) i know its uwes choice... but we are on a discussion forum, so im talking about my oppinion on the matter... if somebody cares or not is their own decision
b) Its nothing new, we already had this mechanic in the game - so its not like ppl wont know how it plays out... that you have to research lifeform abilitys doesnt change anything on that. Compared to what we have now (which ofcs needs a lot of tweaks), the 2nd hive stuff is limiting you a lot strategy wise.
Ns2 is NOT a classic RTS game - just because stuff works there doesnt mean it also will as well in ns2.
<!--quoteo(post=1947127:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) i know its uwes choice... but we are on a discussion forum, so im talking about my oppinion on the matter... if somebody cares or not is their own decision<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't talking about whether someone cares or not. I was talking about how what you said is (as you said) opinion, not fact, and therefore not terribly valuable.
<!--quoteo(post=1947127:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b) Its nothing new, we already had this mechanic in the game - so its not like ppl wont know how it plays out... that you have to research lifeform abilitys doesnt change anything on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is something new, because you've also had a different mechanic (research everything off 1 base if you want, it just takes longer, resources are still unlimited), and the new version of "alien tech is related to hive count" will be designed with the lessons learned from that experiment in mind.
<!--quoteo(post=1947127:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ns2 is NOT a classic RTS game - just because stuff works there doesnt mean it also will in ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't mean they won't, either. There's a history in this game of not succeeding when someone tries to reinvent the wheel, but I'm not about to spoonfeed you the official list of examples.
It was cool posting in this thread, but now I'm going to play Starcraft. Cheers!
Sounds alot better than how it currently is Flayra.
Personally I'm in favor of seeing fade at hive 2 and Onos hive 3 again, thought the game was so much more fun that way. Being able to play an Onos whenever the hell you want removed the 'awesome' feeling when you play one.
On a side not, Onos need buffing if you were to move Stomp to hive 3, jet pack marines already destroy them, no stomp would be ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1947125:date=Jun 28 2012, 02:24 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 28 2012, 02:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a troll comment. I'm serious - if you make one side have this mechanic, the other needs to as well (because this part of the game needs to be symmetric in order to not have 5 hour games where aliens try to bust 1basing marines and every single player leaves the server before the round ends, ala pre-194 builds)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm unsure I follow why marines needs the same mechanic.. I just don't see why the game has to be symmetric in that regard. Now it might seem like I´m switching sides, but in NS1 aliens was forced to go for 2nd base, and marines didnt, and it worked, so I fail to see how this can be a valid argument. I just want the game to be about choices rather than linear predictable paths.
And yes, forcing alien gameplay to 2nd hive will most likely force marines tech paths aswell. It will be as we had back in days when PG+GL was all the rage, every.. singel.. game.
I'm not a badass NS1 player, but from what I've understood, marine tech paths were pretty similar every game aswell. There might have been a few, but not many. IMO, this is something we should try to avoid.
<!--quoteo(post=1947133:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm unsure I follow why marines needs the same mechanic.. I just don't see why the game has to be symmetric in that regard. Now it might seem like I´m switching sides, but in NS1 aliens was forced to go for 2nd base, and marines didnt, and it worked, so I fail to see how this can be a valid argument. I just want the game to be about choices rather than linear predictable paths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's such a fundamental thing to say "this team needs bases to tech", that you can't say "that other team doesn't need bases to tech"
If you played before 194 (I assume you did...) there were a lot of games that ended with marines 1basing for ages, then getting an arc train and 3/3 (all off 1 base) because the aliens simply couldn't kill them. Of course, this happened because of a lack of alien tech and other balance factors, but consider this:<b> if the marines were forced to play by the same simple rule as the aliens (expand to tech effectively), it could never happen</b>. Games would end as they should when aliens control all but 1 room and the marines are simply holding on by spraying bullets at 2 doorways from behind a wall of turrets.
The fact that you need more hives/chairs to tech doesn't mean the game isn't about choices. It just means that some options are not more rewarding than they ought to be (making low-economy, low map control teching too easy de-emphasizes the RTS aspect in a big way), and the focus is more on 'standard' RTS play (focused on expansion, fighting over territory outside of your last bastion and so on).
There's nothing clever about sitting in flight control and getting a full tech tree, and not being punished for it by the game's rules. There are at least <i>some </i>of us who find it incredibly dull.
However, like with any thread, I don't have a quote from god himself saying that this is how RTS games should work, so I can't prove it to you. All I can do is point at every single successful RTS game, which probably isn't enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1947133:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yes, forcing alien gameplay to 2nd hive will most likely force marines tech paths aswell. It will be as we had back in days when PG+GL was all the rage, every.. singel.. game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It will force that if the game is still so drastically imbalanced that GL rushing is the only way to win (and/or if it's childishly easy to do it). Again, UWE's choice. Terran doesn't have to bunker rush every game in SC2, even though zerg can get the god unit composition (broodlord / infestor) and sustain it off 3-4 bases. As you can see, there's a lot more to the issue than the core question (to emphasize map control or not), and nothing of value will be achieved by simply returning to the old (unworkable) alien tech system.
That's why I want to see an NS2 where marines can't get 3/3 and jetpacks while turtling in one room, just because one side has ARCs and one doesn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1947133:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not a badass NS1 player, but from what I've understood, marine tech paths were pretty similar every game aswell. There might have been a few, but not many. IMO, this is something we should try to avoid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That there are few tech paths is more due to the game's core philosophy than to this mechanic. There are less lifeforms/guns/armors in NS2, than units in Starcraft. The depth of play is supposed to come more from player skill (aim, movement, communication, timing....) and map knowledge than from predetermined tech relationships. If it seems like there are too few choices, it's because the game isn't allowing for that type of variety, or players haven't figured out how to pull it off yet. How often do you see an interesting phase gate placement powered by a powerpack (like, say, in the vents on tram)? How many players are even aware that this is a possibility, or that it's incredibly powerful?
Having leap 30 seconds into the game doesn't mean you're a strategic genius, and in fact it's a symptom of exactly what you're describing (one optimal choice that everybody and their cat can figure out in 5 minutes). Having the 'choice' of getting leap super fast and easily winning, or not doing that and looking like a fool, doesn't actually add to the game in a lasting way
Well glad we are sure now, that most stuff ppl speak in this forums are usually opinions rather than facts - who would have known that. :P
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"alien tech is related to hive count" will be designed with the lessons learned from that experiment in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Will it? For me it sounds like the good old alien tech is related to hive count, with a tiny twist that doesnt change the fact (oh boy, a fact) that alien tech is tied to hive count. But this is a problem. Its a problem in so far that aliens got pressure from start to get the 2nd hive up as fast as possible, and marines have the pressure to deny that. Aliens cant go for anything else then a quick enough 2nd hive(quick enough means, that in the timeframe where marines would have suiteable tech to easily deal with the hive) - since otherwise they can stay on the same tier level as marines.
Getting leap in the first 30s is not a genius move, but if the res cost to get leap was increased - there would actually be something to think about - can i do a early game without leap but get X instead? etc.
Currently a alot of those upgrades are just way too cheap - so its not really a choice, its a nobrainer... but that doesnt mean that there cant be choices - it just needs a litte finetuning.
But im not going in details anymore, since it seems like your are not that interessted in understanding my view - you are focused on your idea how an rts game should look like. Thats fine. edit: Hmm maybe im also ignorant and focused on my side. Who knows :P
Actually, I agree that adjusting costs could achieve the same thing. You know what, though? When stuff costs more, good players tend to take more of the map in order to safely get that money. In a "good" NS2, this means getting hives for more eggs, and chairs for more nano etc.
It seems like people really don't want to ever have to take hives/chairs except for pure novelty situations..
Comments
For example if you get early leap then you cant afford enough resnodes for cara and early blink. You can have diffrent costs for diffrent upgrades maybe leap should be 40 tres isntead because you upgrade the free unit.
Going back to abilitys tied to hives seems like a step backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tbh I much prefer the abilities tied to hives as flayra said. The general problem with commander researching them is that now he commands which alien lifeform should shine and which can be less useful. You also can't tie upgrade choices to have an direct impact onto the game (besides maybe leap), it's hard to compare to other rts int hat sense.
--Cory
So I think we'll probably end up by tying Tier 2 (eg, Leap) to 2 hives and Tier 3 (eg, Stomp) to 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, please.
I really hate not caring about hives. I really hate thinking, "whatever, we don't need a third hive anyway".
I realize this may be entirely due to past experience, when hives were important and 2nd hive completing was a cause to yay. But f*ck. Hives are BIG, important looking things! They SHOULD matter. They make all that cool noise when they die!
I don't know.
<!--quoteo(post=1947095:date=Jun 28 2012, 01:18 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 28 2012, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to be clear, tying that stuff to Hives is not going back to the automatic "leap at hive 2" way that it worked originally. The commander still will have to make the choice to research it or not, and decide if its necessary for the team to have first over a different tier 2 ability.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is all fine and well, but you should consider the fun-effect. Second hive goes up, nothing happens - compared to - Second hive goes up, yay, everyone can leap now, yay! Oh, I see, when the second hive is up I can leap! I better not let the hive die, I don't want to lose my leap! ...okay, I'm stretching it, but I just like big "events" like that. A progress bar only khamm can see ending up in a dull announcement "you guys can leap now" is not that exciting. :)
Tying abilities back to hives has proven it self to work in NS1, true. But making NS1.5 shouldn't be the way to go, even though I know alot of ppl would want that. If you go back to NS1 model, it will ensure there will always only be 1 singel BO for aliens: you go every game for 1-2 RTs and then for 2nd hive, because without it: no blink, no leap, no stomp. You wont win without it. So every game will be the same: it will revolve around taking down that 2nd hive. All games will be about hive fights. Is this what we want: games to be predictable and revolve around 1 thing and 1 thing only: the second hive?
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. Luckily I hadn't argue with a comm about getting my abilities in the past, so I hope it works out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this what we want: games to be predictable and revolve around 1 thing and 1 thing only: the second hive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not as simple as that.
While having more options is great, I think that balancing around having all those options would prove hellish. Besides, have you ever seen a prolonged 1 hive game won by aliens? By some alternative strategy? I just don't think there is one. The 2nd hive is something you bump into eventually.
The abilitys should be tied to the hive that upgraded them so you can destroy alien tech. Aliens then has a reason for spreading out their tech.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel like the hive going up is a much more exciting event when you instantly receive a new ability. It's really tense when you're trying to defend a constructing second hive and just holding out for that last 5% so you can leap/blink/etc to save it. It really intuitively conveys the importance of that hive to all the players. Compared to that, seeing it go up and then waiting for your commander to finish some upgrades just isn't the same. It's also frustrating that it's impossible to know when your commander is going to decide that your lifeform's next ability is worthy of research. I just don't think that the upgrade choice has been adding much value so far - in reality, the community just reaches a consensus on the order of priority and follows it almost every time, just like has always been the case with most tech choices in NS1(alien chamber types, marine armor/weapon upgrades, etc).
True, balance might take some time to iron out. But I think eventually UWE would find a good balance. I have faith in them in that regard, especially since they really seem to listen to the community and communicate back with us. Also, having different BOs will also ensure metagame changes, and in the long run it will prove to be more enjoyable both to watch and play. There will be so tremendously combinations of BOs on different maps, and exploring all those would probably take years! Now instead, if all games will look the same every game, how long will it take before you start getting tired to watch/play?
The hive 2 stuff really enforces aliens to a much more predictable build order, and its quite sad to hear that we will go back to this mechanic.
("Oh no you're homogenizing the 2 sides but it's an asymmetric game!")
Yes, and this is a bad thing. How can tying abilities back to 2nd hive help with that? The reason why one as in b210 always went for leap first was due to the fact that you didn't have to sacrifice anything for leap.
And @ koruyo: having a gorge standing and healing a hive for 2 minutes just sounds boring. Also, mature process in general was bad due to the fact that the process revolves around time, and that's just bad.
Was there ever an unpredictability in the build order of aliens? The only questions was and is, if he gets crag/shade or shift first.
<!--quoteo(post=1947114:date=Jun 27 2012, 07:05 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jun 27 2012, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now make something about marines require more than 1 command chair and we can have an RTS game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh no you're homogenizing the 2 sides but it's an asymmetric game!
If a RTS is about building bases at multiple locations I would prefer NS doesn't become one. I guess it would work, but I doubt it would add to the game.
If a RTS is about building bases at multiple locations I would prefer NS doesn't become one. I guess it would work, but I doubt it would add to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good RTS games are about expanding (and trying to punish expansion in some way or another), or the opposite (not expanding for some momentary gain, trying to survive the resulting attack and getting ahead)
I can't think of a good RTS game where it's the norm to stay on 1 base forever, get and use a full tech tree, but that happens all the time in NS2 because of how the tech trees work.
Tying tech to number of hives/chairs is a really fake and roundabout way of achieving this, when the real problem is that "mining from a new part of the map" costs less than "making the most basic structure" - again, I can't think of a good RTS where this is true either
I dont know who the target of this troll comment is... Well, since I'm the one advocating a system which doesn't force base building for aliens and instead gives aliens choices, I guess it has to be UWE and the all of those who wants this game to be about aliens always going for 2nd hive.
I didn't say it would. What do you propose? My point is that the NS community barely tolerates the amount of teching choice they have as it is. Historically, adding more depth of choice like a real RTS has never really worked as intended. Tactics are more fun than strategy in a game like this IMO. It's one thing to choose which units to research in an RTS, it's another thing to choose on behalf of your team's players what roles they're allowed to play.
The way i see it, is we are back on...
2rts hive carapace
vs.
PG GL rush.
It's not a troll comment. I'm serious - if you make one side have this mechanic, the other needs to as well (because this part of the game needs to be symmetric in order to not have 5 hour games where aliens try to bust 1basing marines and every single player leaves the server before the round ends, ala pre-194 builds)
<!--quoteo(post=1947124:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know that forcing aliens on the 2nd hive also makes marine strategies much more predictable? Since you know aliens are depending on the 2nd hive - and losing it can pretty much mean gameover for them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing is forcing aliens on a 2nd hive in this system. It just means they need more map control to use higher tech (just like how every RTS plays out practically, at high skill levels).
Nothing about it means that a 2nd hive means game over for the marines, either. It's UWE's choice if they want to make it that way (like it was in the older builds), but the idea itself doesn't necessitate that.
Don't be afraid to try what every other RTS game does. It just might work if you tweak it instead of layering on hundreds of unintuitive mechanics that reward 1basing in an RTS game.
Sure, teching choices for aliens in NS2 hasn't been very interesting so far. I also agree that tactics should be very important as well, but I just don't see why making sure aliens have choices takes away tactics. And I'm not suggesting alien comm (in pub) should decide what lifeforms the team should have. I'm merely advocating a system where aliens can have choices, and I think that you could build on and improve the current system we had, it just needed more tweaking to make sure it worked properly.
b) Its nothing new, we already had this mechanic in the game - so its not like ppl wont know how it plays out... that you have to research lifeform abilitys doesnt change anything on that.
Compared to what we have now (which ofcs needs a lot of tweaks), the 2nd hive stuff is limiting you a lot strategy wise.
Ns2 is NOT a classic RTS game - just because stuff works there doesnt mean it also will as well in ns2.
I wasn't talking about whether someone cares or not. I was talking about how what you said is (as you said) opinion, not fact, and therefore not terribly valuable.
<!--quoteo(post=1947127:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b) Its nothing new, we already had this mechanic in the game - so its not like ppl wont know how it plays out... that you have to research lifeform abilitys doesnt change anything on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is something new, because you've also had a different mechanic (research everything off 1 base if you want, it just takes longer, resources are still unlimited), and the new version of "alien tech is related to hive count" will be designed with the lessons learned from that experiment in mind.
<!--quoteo(post=1947127:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 27 2012, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ns2 is NOT a classic RTS game - just because stuff works there doesnt mean it also will in ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't mean they won't, either. There's a history in this game of not succeeding when someone tries to reinvent the wheel, but I'm not about to spoonfeed you the official list of examples.
It was cool posting in this thread, but now I'm going to play Starcraft. Cheers!
Personally I'm in favor of seeing fade at hive 2 and Onos hive 3 again, thought the game was so much more fun that way. Being able to play an Onos whenever the hell you want removed the 'awesome' feeling when you play one.
On a side not, Onos need buffing if you were to move Stomp to hive 3, jet pack marines already destroy them, no stomp would be ridiculous.
I'm unsure I follow why marines needs the same mechanic.. I just don't see why the game has to be symmetric in that regard. Now it might seem like I´m switching sides, but in NS1 aliens was forced to go for 2nd base, and marines didnt, and it worked, so I fail to see how this can be a valid argument. I just want the game to be about choices rather than linear predictable paths.
And yes, forcing alien gameplay to 2nd hive will most likely force marines tech paths aswell. It will be as we had back in days when PG+GL was all the rage, every.. singel.. game.
I'm not a badass NS1 player, but from what I've understood, marine tech paths were pretty similar every game aswell. There might have been a few, but not many. IMO, this is something we should try to avoid.
It's such a fundamental thing to say "this team needs bases to tech", that you can't say "that other team doesn't need bases to tech"
If you played before 194 (I assume you did...) there were a lot of games that ended with marines 1basing for ages, then getting an arc train and 3/3 (all off 1 base) because the aliens simply couldn't kill them. Of course, this happened because of a lack of alien tech and other balance factors, but consider this:<b> if the marines were forced to play by the same simple rule as the aliens (expand to tech effectively), it could never happen</b>. Games would end as they should when aliens control all but 1 room and the marines are simply holding on by spraying bullets at 2 doorways from behind a wall of turrets.
The fact that you need more hives/chairs to tech doesn't mean the game isn't about choices. It just means that some options are not more rewarding than they ought to be (making low-economy, low map control teching too easy de-emphasizes the RTS aspect in a big way), and the focus is more on 'standard' RTS play (focused on expansion, fighting over territory outside of your last bastion and so on).
There's nothing clever about sitting in flight control and getting a full tech tree, and not being punished for it by the game's rules. There are at least <i>some </i>of us who find it incredibly dull.
However, like with any thread, I don't have a quote from god himself saying that this is how RTS games should work, so I can't prove it to you. All I can do is point at every single successful RTS game, which probably isn't enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1947133:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yes, forcing alien gameplay to 2nd hive will most likely force marines tech paths aswell. It will be as we had back in days when PG+GL was all the rage, every.. singel.. game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It will force that if the game is still so drastically imbalanced that GL rushing is the only way to win (and/or if it's childishly easy to do it). Again, UWE's choice.
Terran doesn't have to bunker rush every game in SC2, even though zerg can get the god unit composition (broodlord / infestor) and sustain it off 3-4 bases. As you can see, there's a lot more to the issue than the core question (to emphasize map control or not), and nothing of value will be achieved by simply returning to the old (unworkable) alien tech system.
That's why I want to see an NS2 where marines can't get 3/3 and jetpacks while turtling in one room, just because one side has ARCs and one doesn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1947133:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Jun 27 2012, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not a badass NS1 player, but from what I've understood, marine tech paths were pretty similar every game aswell. There might have been a few, but not many. IMO, this is something we should try to avoid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That there are few tech paths is more due to the game's core philosophy than to this mechanic. There are less lifeforms/guns/armors in NS2, than units in Starcraft. The depth of play is supposed to come more from player skill (aim, movement, communication, timing....) and map knowledge than from predetermined tech relationships. If it seems like there are too few choices, it's because the game isn't allowing for that type of variety, or players haven't figured out how to pull it off yet. How often do you see an interesting phase gate placement powered by a powerpack (like, say, in the vents on tram)? How many players are even aware that this is a possibility, or that it's incredibly powerful?
Having leap 30 seconds into the game doesn't mean you're a strategic genius, and in fact it's a symptom of exactly what you're describing (one optimal choice that everybody and their cat can figure out in 5 minutes). Having the 'choice' of getting leap super fast and easily winning, or not doing that and looking like a fool, doesn't actually add to the game in a lasting way
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"alien tech is related to hive count" will be designed with the lessons learned from that experiment in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will it? For me it sounds like the good old alien tech is related to hive count, with a tiny twist that doesnt change the fact (oh boy, a fact) that alien tech is tied to hive count.
But this is a problem. Its a problem in so far that aliens got pressure from start to get the 2nd hive up as fast as possible, and marines have the pressure to deny that. Aliens cant go for anything else then a quick enough 2nd hive(quick enough means, that in the timeframe where marines would have suiteable tech to easily deal with the hive) - since otherwise they can stay on the same tier level as marines.
Getting leap in the first 30s is not a genius move, but if the res cost to get leap was increased - there would actually be something to think about - can i do a early game without leap but get X instead? etc.
Currently a alot of those upgrades are just way too cheap - so its not really a choice, its a nobrainer... but that doesnt mean that there cant be choices - it just needs a litte finetuning.
But im not going in details anymore, since it seems like your are not that interessted in understanding my view - you are focused on your idea how an rts game should look like. Thats fine.
edit: Hmm maybe im also ignorant and focused on my side. Who knows :P
It seems like people really don't want to ever have to take hives/chairs except for pure novelty situations..