is it just me or does the skulk feel like it's running at carapace speed regardless of having it upgraded? i feel much slower this build and don't notice a speed decrease when i upgrade to cara.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
How should scaling carapace with number of hives help in late game? If you do that, you force the problematic discussed here.
We have only 1 ressource type now and everything is based on it. So by tweaking the following variables, it should be possible to find a good balance: Upgrade- cost and time, Structure- buildtime and cost.
Lets say the game is balanced for an 30 min game (i know some prefer short games, others like long epic battles). If marines want to build turrets and arcs, they should not be able get full upgrades withing these 30 min.
You want less arcs on the field, here is an example: ARCresearchtime=2 min (40 sec right now) ARC buildtime= 1.5 min (right now, arcs can be build every 20 sec)
3,5 min= 1 arc vs 3 arcs vanilla (you can finetune that with the costs)
And these high researchtimes give the aliens another target.
Right now everything feels spammy. You lost an extrator? NP, lets rebuild it in 2 sec with nanoconstruct. You lose a turret? hey lets rebuild it in 1 sec with nano.
Same on Alienside, you have to choose wich path you want to move. Most of the players prefer carapace first. if the com choose shift, aliens only have to wait 5 min for carapace. So, its not really a choice
If the game want to be more strategic, everything must be slowed down. Right now it feels more like Deatchmatch.
Well, after playing some b212 skulk i feel cara is actually kinda a bit too strong on skulk. ~=17 bullets to kill is alot. The speed penalty doesn't affect skulk as much as it affects onos and lerk due to <b>leap and walljump</b>. Have not even tried celerity/cara yet and skulk already feels too tanky in a bad way. You don't really need to dodge as much or worry about diving into a group of marines anymore and can play much lazier. It also doesn't promote ambush play as you might expect.
Ofcourse early game dynamic is going to change with later leap research timing, butin terms of late game i feel skulk is in a good place (if not maybe even an imba place) and scaling is unnecessary. The main issue with late game scaling of skulk was always sentry turret spam and jp. Cara/leap gives skulk options against both, and the sentry nerf is helping late game skulk viability too.
I agree that xeno does need to be stronger only because its efficiency is much lower than simply playing skulk normally.
<!--quoteo(post=1947932:date=Jun 30 2012, 05:53 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Jun 30 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How should scaling carapace with number of hives help in late game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 hive carapace would be stronger than current cara, giving late-game skulks some more survivability.
1 hive cara would be weaker than current cara. (as b212 cara is pretty strong for early game).
Gives the skulks some damage absorption scaling to help counter marines damage scaling with weap 1/2/3.
The alternative is to make the skulks 3-hive ability more useful (assuming abilities get linked back to hives again, as Flayra has been discussing).
Another alternative is to go back to cara strength depending on number of upgrade chambers, but make the chambers cost progressively more and take some time to build or research. So cara 1 is pretty cheap, but cara 3 is expensive and takes some time.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1947950:date=Jun 30 2012, 03:31 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 30 2012, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, after playing some b212 skulk i feel cara is actually kinda a bit too strong on skulk. ~=17 bullets to kill is alot. The speed penalty doesn't affect skulk as much as it affects onos and lerk due to <b>leap and walljump</b>. Have not even tried celerity/cara yet and skulk already feels too tanky in a bad way. You don't really need to dodge as much or worry about diving into a group of marines anymore and can play much lazier. It also doesn't promote ambush play as you might expect.
Of course early game dynamic is going to change with later leap research timing, butin terms of late game I feel skulk is in a good place (if not maybe even an imba place) and scaling is unnecessary. The main issue with late game scaling of skulk was always sentry turret spam and jp. Cara/leap gives skulk options against both, and the sentry nerf is helping late game skulk viability too.
I agree that xeno does need to be stronger only because its efficiency is much lower than simply playing skulk normally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with your observations on all counts.
I think Skulk Carapace speed penalty (currently at ~8% max) is barely noticeable, thus should be increased. It is a multiplier on the final speed, so bumping up the slow effect will also slow down Leap, wall jumping, and celerity nicely.
As the game progresses, Skulks have more upgrades to make them deadlier, such as boosting movement speed (Celerity). Other lifeforms also gain support abilities to assist Skulks in their killing, including Umbra, Vortex, and Stomp.
Xenocide does feel quite weak. IMO 300 light damage would be more appropriate (to kill Marines with armor 1 in one hit).
All equipment, upgrades, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, it would cease to be an interesting decision when choosing them. For instance, jetpacks give you increased speed, but also increased noise and (probably) slightly slower movement speed when on the ground. Exosuits give massive extra armor, but they won’t be able to use Phase Gates (they won’t fit, or the materials can’t be reconstructed feasibly on the other side). Shotguns are great close up, but not for taking down a hive at distance. They are also great against lightly armored targets, but not heavily armored.
<b>We tried this with alien evolutions, but players didn’t like them (ie, gaining more armor with carapace, but slowing down too)</b>. Still, this is a principle that we’re sticking to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they're tring to balance the fact that aliens can have their armor 3 equivalent just minutes into the game. So they try making carapace worse so it isn't as unbalanced that early. Of course then its worse late game too, and annoying to use.
Upgrades need to improve as the game goes on. That would fix it properly.
<!--quoteo(post=1947967:date=Jun 30 2012, 02:58 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jun 30 2012, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upgrades need to improve as the game goes on. That would fix it properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe fall back to the 3/3 carapace shells system? That way you could just adjust carapace shell cost and balance it out real easy. NOT ENOUGH ASYMMETRY OMFG yeah well.
EDIT: I just realized I've not an inkling why 3/3 was reduced to 1 cara shell in the first place... Maybe someone fills me in on the details. Or hot cocoa. Either is fine.
The problem is, carapace is actually "too strong", it became basically a mandatory evolution to counterbalance weapon upgrades and weapon types.
We got a serious problem with evolutions, since basically - because you can - the only combination that makes sense to use is carapace, regen, celerity (maybe silence instead of celerity, might be useful too).
There is very big synergy between carapace regen and additional movementspeed.
Cara gives you a flatout boost to your survivability, even against crazy aimers - it means you will be a bit longer alive. Regen helps you a lot between fights, and since most of aliens got very nice movement abilitys - if you dont think you can make it you usually can try get away regen up quickly and try again. Celerity, while it helps you getting to and away from marines - somebody with incredible aim might still kill you as fast as if you didnt have it - so for me carapace is slightly ahead. (but of faster movement, means quicker in combat and better dodging)
If you ask me a system more similar to ns1 would be cooler(pick 1 out of 3 per chamber, so the tradeoff can become not having the other upgrades, and not some random stuff added because of a design decision), and to counter weapon and armor upgrades of marines we should maybe thing about something else (not evolutions) thats tied to tierlevel => hives.
<!--quoteo(post=1947982:date=Jun 30 2012, 04:38 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Jun 30 2012, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lets say a shell cost 15 res * 3 = 45 res cause every com would build 3 shells as fast as possible.
So 45 res for carapace+buildtime of 3 shells+upgradetime on hive= same like 3 shellsystem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What. This makes no sense. It's like saying marines might as well only have one armor level since every com will get all 3 as fast as possible. (Which is not true tho :p)
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
All i want to say in my previous post was: You can have the same result in the same time with the same amount of spending res with only 1 upgrade. We had the 3 shell system in the game some builds ago. Its really stupid to build the same structure 3 times only to get full upgrade armor.
I like the idea of an base armor linked to hives wich scales with amount of hives. This would make aliens stronger over time. And carapace as an extra armor but with noticable decrease of speed.
I heard something similar is planned for marines. Arms Lab only with 2 Command Chairs or something like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1948032:date=Jun 30 2012, 02:13 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Jun 30 2012, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All i want to say in my previous post was: You can have the same result in the same time with the same amount of spending res with only 1 upgrade. We had the 3 shell system in the game some builds ago. Its really stupid to build the same structure 3 times only to get full upgrade armor.
I like the idea of an base armor linked to hives wich scales with amount of hives. This would make aliens stronger over time. And carapace as an extra armor but with noticable decrease of speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've thought about this aswell.. still not completly sold, seeing how in a usually balanced game you have 2 hives. Having 3 lategame is not a given.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I heard something similar is planned for marines. Arms Lab only with 2 Command Chairs or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Almost, Charlie was talking about proto-lab ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1947957:date=Jun 30 2012, 07:34 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jun 30 2012, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with your observations on all counts.
I think Skulk Carapace speed penalty (currently at ~8% max) is barely noticeable, thus should be increased. It is a multiplier on the final speed, so bumping up the slow effect will also slow down Leap, wall jumping, and celerity nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or we can just do away with the speed penalty, remove carapace from crag tech and make armor a tech upgrade similar to marines Arms lab instead of trying to fix a ######, broken mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1948032:date=Jun 30 2012, 09:13 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Jun 30 2012, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All i want to say in my previous post was: You can have the same result in the same time with the same amount of spending res with only 1 upgrade. We had the 3 shell system in the game some builds ago. Its really stupid to build the same structure 3 times only to get full upgrade armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Woaaaah. It's like this transcends some level of basic thinking that makes it a complex topic. I already made a reference to marine 3 armor levels. Works for marines. Works for kharaa too. <!--quoteo(post=1948032:date=Jun 30 2012, 09:13 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Jun 30 2012, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of an base armor linked to hives wich scales with amount of hives. This would make aliens stronger over time. And carapace as an extra armor but with noticable decrease of speed.
I heard something similar is planned for marines. Arms Lab only with 2 Command Chairs or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like the hive-bound armor too, BUT if they also tie leap etc. abilities with hives, I fear hives may become too important therefore crippling to lose one.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the hive-bound armor too, BUT if they also tie leap etc. abilities with hives, I fear hives may become too important therefore crippling to lose one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct. Hence why an arms lab type structure "mutation chamber" or whatever the heck ya wanna call it will fix the issue of Aliens being "too stronk, nerf plz kkthx" early game and "holy batman on a cracker, aliens sux" late game.
They are already making abilities streamline. Tier 2 abilities requiring a second hive and protolab requiring a second commander chair. It's time to streamline armor and damage upgrades too.
Example. Look at SC2, all three races have tiers of armor and weapon damage through a structure. Why? Because it works.
Now lets see how long it takes them to figure this out as they continue to fumble with a broken mechanic, wasting time with an easier fix.
<!--quoteo(post=1948044:date=Jul 1 2012, 06:25 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 1 2012, 06:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Example. Look at SC2, all three races have tiers of armor and weapon damage through a structure. Why? Because it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I couldn't disagree more. You're misrepresenting SC2 upgrades alot and drawing the wrong parallels. Zerg 'skulks' get celerity, armour, weapons from 2 different places and each tier of upgrades requires a 2nd tier of hatchery much in the same way an additional hive might work. The same principle applies for the other two races.
<!--quoteo(post=1948066:date=Jun 30 2012, 06:59 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 30 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I couldn't disagree more. You're misrepresenting SC2 upgrades alot and drawing the wrong parallels. Zerg 'skulks' get celerity, armour, weapons from 2 different places and each tier of upgrades requires a 2nd tier of hatchery much in the same way an additional hive might work. <b>The same principle applies for the other two races</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Terran Marines get stimpack and combat shield from the Tech lab. So what is your point besides bring up something irrelevant? The fact of the matter is that Zergs, Terran and Protoss have armor/weapon upgrades that are tiered by three levels using an Evolution Chamber/Engineering Bay/Forge, only talking about ground units here. Are you saying NS2 marines shouldn't be able to tech weapons 2 and armor 2 without a second Commander chair? Sure, why not.
<!--quoteo(post=1948040:date=Jun 30 2012, 10:10 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 30 2012, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or we can just do away with the speed penalty, remove carapace from crag tech and make armor a tech upgrade similar to marines Arms lab instead of trying to fix a ######, broken mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had that in around 40 or so builds ago, where aliens had melee 1-3 and armor 1-3 on the whip. It was unbalanced and got removed, and all players were happy about it.
Xeno needs to be better imo but with 4 bits to kill a rine is a bit debatable. I have killed a fair few rines in late game by just dancing around them so they cant hit me wich works. But when they have JP's or its 2 v 2 skulks (which should be equal) its pretty hard to stand a chance. There should be an upgrade (evolve) which increases the skulks and other lifeforms attack damage. saying this though would make early game easy for aliens if researched early which could make early game harder for marines so make it an expensive upgrade and also that you need a combination of other upgrades untill this is achivable. This way it makes it only a late mid/endgame evolution but if it comes earlier the aliens would be lacking with diffrent things
<!--quoteo(post=1948072:date=Jun 30 2012, 08:20 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Jun 30 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We had that in around <b>40 or so builds ago</b>, where aliens had melee 1-3 and armor 1-3 on the whip. It was unbalanced and got removed, and all players were happy about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it was "unbalanced" back when performance was terrible and marines couldn't hit the broadside of a barn?
I'd say it's worth another shot at it.
Edit: What's better? 80 armor on a skulk 1-2 minutes into the game or 30 armor 1-2 minutes, then 60 5-6 minutes, then 90 8 minutes into the game?
<!--quoteo(post=1948082:date=Jul 1 2012, 01:52 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 1 2012, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: What's better? 80 armor on a skulk 1-2 minutes into the game or 30 armor 1-2 minutes, then 60 5-6 minutes, then 90 8 minutes into the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that would work. Is that taking into account carapace or is thar base armor?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Aliens need an arms labs equivalent that allows them to upgrade weapon speed, or damage, and armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called carapace, regen, celerity, adrenaline, camo, silence.
Makes standard skulks a lot more deadly.
However, I do think focus is sorely missed as a way of dealing with late game marine armor. They should remove the completely useless hyper mutation and give us focus back.
maturation IS alien scaling. All primary structures have an additional upgrade when they mature, why not have an enhacement available when an upgrade chamber matures?
For instance:
Remove carapace speed penalty (if it becomes a real trade off) Regeneration is always on, even in combat, or quicker health regeneration Increased energy regeneration with celerity Move through infestation back to nearest hive when hypermutating into a skulk (?) Move at full speed with cloak Reduce the sound of nearby allies with silence
NOTE: maturation times would have to be increased on upgrade chambers to make sure they aren't all upgraded too early
<!--quoteo(post=1948088:date=Jun 30 2012, 09:27 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Jun 30 2012, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that would work. Is that taking into account carapace or is thar base armor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would just their base armor. Same way marine armor works with upgrades. Carapace would no longer be a quick upgrade through the lifeform menu.
Makes standard skulks a lot more deadly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about you read a little further though the thread. I'm stating that carapace should no longer be a crag hive tech, instead a seperate tech that upgrades aliens the same way arms lab upgrades marines.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I get where you're going with this Misternubs, and i've come to this conclusion before many times in my own head.. but then i always remember that lifeforms are supposed to fill this role. I.e. whereas marines get armor and weapons, aliens get lifeforms which are supposed to equal said tier levels as well as Alien upgrades and alien abilities (i.e. blink, BB etc) which obviously are the "bonus" to this to ensure that it scales better than vanilla life forms as the game goes on..
So, basically, if there's an imbalance occurring its because its damn difficult to balance an asymmetric game like this because you aren't simply pairing or matching armor levels per each tier.. instead you are supposed to plan out equivalencies like how A2 should be timed with blink or 2nd CC with BB etc etc
So lets attempt to worth within those confines first - as <b>we have tried</b> weapon upgrades for aliens before and it didnt work so well - by providing feedback on what exactly needs adjustment , as this thread is already doing, ala carapace effectiveness etc.
Tying tech to techpoints will really help balance this game from an "on paper" standpoint at least so that it will clearly define what needs adjustment. (both teams have 2 techpoints at the same time - so how does their accompanying tech match one another?)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I.e. whereas marines get armor and weapons, aliens get lifeforms which are supposed to equal said tier levels as well as Alien upgrades and alien abilities (i.e. blink, BB etc) which obviously are the "bonus" to this to ensure that it scales better than vanilla life forms as the game goes on..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the upgrades are created unequal and are not exactly comparable to the strength of having weapon/armor upgrades. -Lerk is still a complete disaster (and easily killed = waste of p.res) since its t1 ability, poison bite, is made completely useless by a Marine commander that pays the slightest attention. Spikes is all over the place, back to being bad in 212. Hardly worth calling it a t2 ability at this point. -Fade is a mess again. Shadow Step costing energy, no idea why they felt the need to change it. Vortex is both extreme powerful and completely useless for an "anti-personal" life form, and can be easily counter-able by building more than one of each structure. An w+m1 marine with flamethrower makes them a joke since they'll have no energy to use that t2 ability. Add in EMP and lol@fades. Bring back Acid rockets as a t3 and then were talkin'. -Onos is a complete joke as an anti-structure/siege lifeform. Only destroys things slightly faster than a skulk (20 secs vs skulk's 25 on an rt... seriously?). Hilariously easily to kite by marines and made useless by a 10 p.res jet pack. The nerf speeds on carapace makes Onos slower than a 90 year old lady. Stomp is great!... when the game lags and marines can't match the animation to the stomp effect. Still no t3 ability, but the proposed overheal scream isn't going to make them useful. You got one chance to use an Onos currently since w3 tear through them like they're made of wet tissue paper and that's 75+ pres down the drain. If Marines have more than one base, then good luck finishing the game using onos. Cause you're not with the current Onos.
Tl;dr. Tier abilities isn't going to help make lifeforms any better when the life forms themselves don't even perform well. And the lack of scaling makes them even worse as the game continues.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, basically, if there's an imbalance occurring its because its damn difficult to balance an asymmetric game like this because you aren't simply pairing or matching armor levels per each tier.. instead you are supposed to plan out equivalencies like how A2 should be timed with blink or 2nd CC with BB etc etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're forgetting that not only are marines improving their survivability with armor, they are also simultaneously improving their killing power. Takes longer to kill them while they kill you faster. While leap helps you get closer, it doesn't help kill them faster when they can absorb 3-4 bites and all they need to do is turn around and one shot you with a shotgun. That is a huge discrepancy and a huge unbalance factor. It's the same with all life forms. Lerks getting blasted out of the air in a matter of seconds with a shotgun, but it takes them a lot longer for them to kill Marines. So how is it fair that a 30 res lifeform is unable to compete equally against a 20 res weapon? If lerks can kill a0/1 marines in 1-2 bites Marines would be screaming bloody murder, but marines cry when shotguns are unable to one shot skulks/lerks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So lets attempt to worth within those confines first - as we have tried weapon upgrades for aliens before and it didnt work so well - by providing feedback on what exactly needs adjustment , as this thread is already doing, ala carapace effectiveness etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Weapon upgrade doesn't have to be damage. It can just as easily be faster attack speeds. Or bring back focus from ns1 which is sorely needed. So far working with in "these confines" isn't working hence why we are having this discussion. The slow effect carapace really irks me when Marines suffer no penalty for their advanced armor. If A3 marines suffered an 8% slow down, Marine players wouldn't be too happy I'd take it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tying tech to techpoints will really help balance this game from an "on paper" standpoint at least so that it will clearly define what needs adjustment. (both teams have 2 techpoints at the same time - so how does their accompanying tech match one another?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tying tech abilities will help Marines out a lot, but I have a feeling Aliens are going to be having a hard time early game once this goes live. Just a feeling.
The reason why I'm suggesting a new alien structure that allows them to upgrade armor outside of crag tech is because of how crag hive is still the go to first hive. This would allow more choices which this game really freakin' needs as an alien. The suggestion to adding armor scaling to hives is all well and great, but with tier abilities going back to hive, aliens would be even MORE reliant on hives. Too much of that is not a good thing. Can easily go back to 3 structures for each upgrade, but then aliens would still be crag hive reliant.
A new structure is the only way I can see working at this point, diddling around is just going to waste time.
Another idea would be to add health/armor scaling with researched tier ability tech on top of hive health/armor scaling, but again, that's putting too much reliance on hives.
If carapace can't be balanced over the research-res-cost and sticks to be the No.1 upgrade it should be moved to an own building. Like someone here said with 3 lvl and long research times and costs, so it matches with marine upgrades.
Carapace needs to stop being the most important / chosen upgrade path.
Btw. have I played on a modded server or do the people here talking about Xenocide without even trying it in 212? It kicks ass right now.
Comments
If you do that, you force the problematic discussed here.
We have only 1 ressource type now and everything is based on it.
So by tweaking the following variables, it should be possible to find a good balance:
Upgrade- cost and time, Structure- buildtime and cost.
Lets say the game is balanced for an 30 min game (i know some prefer short games, others like long epic battles).
If marines want to build turrets and arcs, they should not be able get full upgrades withing these 30 min.
You want less arcs on the field, here is an example:
ARCresearchtime=2 min (40 sec right now)
ARC buildtime= 1.5 min (right now, arcs can be build every 20 sec)
3,5 min= 1 arc vs 3 arcs vanilla (you can finetune that with the costs)
And these high researchtimes give the aliens another target.
Right now everything feels spammy. You lost an extrator? NP, lets rebuild it in 2 sec with nanoconstruct.
You lose a turret? hey lets rebuild it in 1 sec with nano.
Same on Alienside, you have to choose wich path you want to move.
Most of the players prefer carapace first. if the com choose shift, aliens only have to wait 5 min for carapace.
So, its not really a choice
If the game want to be more strategic, everything must be slowed down. Right now it feels more like Deatchmatch.
Ofcourse early game dynamic is going to change with later leap research timing, butin terms of late game i feel skulk is in a good place (if not maybe even an imba place) and scaling is unnecessary. The main issue with late game scaling of skulk was always sentry turret spam and jp. Cara/leap gives skulk options against both, and the sentry nerf is helping late game skulk viability too.
I agree that xeno does need to be stronger only because its efficiency is much lower than simply playing skulk normally.
3 hive carapace would be stronger than current cara, giving late-game skulks some more survivability.
1 hive cara would be weaker than current cara. (as b212 cara is pretty strong for early game).
Gives the skulks some damage absorption scaling to help counter marines damage scaling with weap 1/2/3.
The alternative is to make the skulks 3-hive ability more useful (assuming abilities get linked back to hives again, as Flayra has been discussing).
Another alternative is to go back to cara strength depending on number of upgrade chambers, but make the chambers cost progressively more and take some time to build or research. So cara 1 is pretty cheap, but cara 3 is expensive and takes some time.
Of course early game dynamic is going to change with later leap research timing, butin terms of late game I feel skulk is in a good place (if not maybe even an imba place) and scaling is unnecessary. The main issue with late game scaling of skulk was always sentry turret spam and jp. Cara/leap gives skulk options against both, and the sentry nerf is helping late game skulk viability too.
I agree that xeno does need to be stronger only because its efficiency is much lower than simply playing skulk normally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your observations on all counts.
I think Skulk Carapace speed penalty (currently at ~8% max) is barely noticeable, thus should be increased. It is a multiplier on the final speed, so bumping up the slow effect will also slow down Leap, wall jumping, and celerity nicely.
As the game progresses, Skulks have more upgrades to make them deadlier, such as boosting movement speed (Celerity). Other lifeforms also gain support abilities to assist Skulks in their killing, including Umbra, Vortex, and Stomp.
Xenocide does feel quite weak. IMO 300 light damage would be more appropriate (to kill Marines with armor 1 in one hit).
All equipment, upgrades, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, it would cease to be an interesting decision when choosing them. For instance, jetpacks give you increased speed, but also increased noise and (probably) slightly slower movement speed when on the ground. Exosuits give massive extra armor, but they won’t be able to use Phase Gates (they won’t fit, or the materials can’t be reconstructed feasibly on the other side). Shotguns are great close up, but not for taking down a hive at distance. They are also great against lightly armored targets, but not heavily armored.
<b>We tried this with alien evolutions, but players didn’t like them (ie, gaining more armor with carapace, but slowing down too)</b>. Still, this is a principle that we’re sticking to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are we trying this again?
Upgrades need to improve as the game goes on. That would fix it properly.
Maybe fall back to the 3/3 carapace shells system? That way you could just adjust carapace shell cost and balance it out real easy. NOT ENOUGH ASYMMETRY OMFG yeah well.
EDIT: I just realized I've not an inkling why 3/3 was reduced to 1 cara shell in the first place... Maybe someone fills me in on the details. Or hot cocoa. Either is fine.
So 45 res for carapace+buildtime of 3 shells+upgradetime on hive= same like 3 shellsystem
We got a serious problem with evolutions, since basically - because you can - the only combination that makes sense to use is carapace, regen, celerity (maybe silence instead of celerity, might be useful too).
There is very big synergy between carapace regen and additional movementspeed.
Cara gives you a flatout boost to your survivability, even against crazy aimers - it means you will be a bit longer alive.
Regen helps you a lot between fights, and since most of aliens got very nice movement abilitys - if you dont think you can make it you usually can try get away regen up quickly and try again.
Celerity, while it helps you getting to and away from marines - somebody with incredible aim might still kill you as fast as if you didnt have it - so for me carapace is slightly ahead. (but of faster movement, means quicker in combat and better dodging)
If you ask me a system more similar to ns1 would be cooler(pick 1 out of 3 per chamber, so the tradeoff can become not having the other upgrades, and not some random stuff added because of a design decision), and to counter weapon and armor upgrades of marines we should maybe thing about something else (not evolutions) thats tied to tierlevel => hives.
So 45 res for carapace+buildtime of 3 shells+upgradetime on hive= same like 3 shellsystem<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What. This makes no sense. It's like saying marines might as well only have one armor level since every com will get all 3 as fast as possible. (Which is not true tho :p)
We had the 3 shell system in the game some builds ago. Its really stupid to build the same structure 3 times only to get full upgrade armor.
I like the idea of an base armor linked to hives wich scales with amount of hives. This would make aliens stronger over time.
And carapace as an extra armor but with noticable decrease of speed.
I heard something similar is planned for marines. Arms Lab only with 2 Command Chairs or something like that.
We had the 3 shell system in the game some builds ago. Its really stupid to build the same structure 3 times only to get full upgrade armor.
I like the idea of an base armor linked to hives wich scales with amount of hives. This would make aliens stronger over time.
And carapace as an extra armor but with noticable decrease of speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've thought about this aswell.. still not completly sold, seeing how in a usually balanced game you have 2 hives. Having 3 lategame is not a given.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I heard something similar is planned for marines. Arms Lab only with 2 Command Chairs or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Almost, Charlie was talking about proto-lab ;)
I think Skulk Carapace speed penalty (currently at ~8% max) is barely noticeable, thus should be increased. It is a multiplier on the final speed, so bumping up the slow effect will also slow down Leap, wall jumping, and celerity nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or we can just do away with the speed penalty, remove carapace from crag tech and make armor a tech upgrade similar to marines Arms lab instead of trying to fix a ######, broken mechanic.
We had the 3 shell system in the game some builds ago. Its really stupid to build the same structure 3 times only to get full upgrade armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woaaaah. It's like this transcends some level of basic thinking that makes it a complex topic. I already made a reference to marine 3 armor levels. Works for marines. Works for kharaa too.
<!--quoteo(post=1948032:date=Jun 30 2012, 09:13 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Jun 30 2012, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of an base armor linked to hives wich scales with amount of hives. This would make aliens stronger over time.
And carapace as an extra armor but with noticable decrease of speed.
I heard something similar is planned for marines. Arms Lab only with 2 Command Chairs or something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the hive-bound armor too, BUT if they also tie leap etc. abilities with hives, I fear hives may become too important therefore crippling to lose one.
Correct. Hence why an arms lab type structure "mutation chamber" or whatever the heck ya wanna call it will fix the issue of Aliens being "too stronk, nerf plz kkthx" early game and "holy batman on a cracker, aliens sux" late game.
They are already making abilities streamline. Tier 2 abilities requiring a second hive and protolab requiring a second commander chair. It's time to streamline armor and damage upgrades too.
Example. Look at SC2, all three races have tiers of armor and weapon damage through a structure. Why? Because it works.
Now lets see how long it takes them to figure this out as they continue to fumble with a broken mechanic, wasting time with an easier fix.
I couldn't disagree more. You're misrepresenting SC2 upgrades alot and drawing the wrong parallels. Zerg 'skulks' get celerity, armour, weapons from 2 different places and each tier of upgrades requires a 2nd tier of hatchery much in the same way an additional hive might work. The same principle applies for the other two races.
And Terran Marines get stimpack and combat shield from the Tech lab. So what is your point besides bring up something irrelevant? The fact of the matter is that Zergs, Terran and Protoss have armor/weapon upgrades that are tiered by three levels using an Evolution Chamber/Engineering Bay/Forge, only talking about ground units here. Are you saying NS2 marines shouldn't be able to tech weapons 2 and armor 2 without a second Commander chair? Sure, why not.
We had that in around 40 or so builds ago, where aliens had melee 1-3 and armor 1-3 on the whip.
It was unbalanced and got removed, and all players were happy about it.
It was unbalanced and got removed, and all players were happy about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it was "unbalanced" back when performance was terrible and marines couldn't hit the broadside of a barn?
I'd say it's worth another shot at it.
Edit: What's better? 80 armor on a skulk 1-2 minutes into the game or 30 armor 1-2 minutes, then 60 5-6 minutes, then 90 8 minutes into the game?
I think that would work. Is that taking into account carapace or is thar base armor?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Aliens need an arms labs equivalent that allows them to upgrade weapon speed, or damage, and armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called carapace, regen, celerity, adrenaline, camo, silence.
Makes standard skulks a lot more deadly.
However, I do think focus is sorely missed as a way of dealing with late game marine armor. They should remove the completely useless hyper mutation and give us focus back.
For instance:
Remove carapace speed penalty (if it becomes a real trade off)
Regeneration is always on, even in combat, or quicker health regeneration
Increased energy regeneration with celerity
Move through infestation back to nearest hive when hypermutating into a skulk (?)
Move at full speed with cloak
Reduce the sound of nearby allies with silence
NOTE: maturation times would have to be increased on upgrade chambers to make sure they aren't all upgraded too early
It would just their base armor. Same way marine armor works with upgrades. Carapace would no longer be a quick upgrade through the lifeform menu.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's called carapace, regen, celerity, adrenaline, camo, silence.
Makes standard skulks a lot more deadly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about you read a little further though the thread. I'm stating that carapace should no longer be a crag hive tech, instead a seperate tech that upgrades aliens the same way arms lab upgrades marines.
So, basically, if there's an imbalance occurring its because its damn difficult to balance an asymmetric game like this because you aren't simply pairing or matching armor levels per each tier.. instead you are supposed to plan out equivalencies like how A2 should be timed with blink or 2nd CC with BB etc etc
So lets attempt to worth within those confines first - as <b>we have tried</b> weapon upgrades for aliens before and it didnt work so well - by providing feedback on what exactly needs adjustment , as this thread is already doing, ala carapace effectiveness etc.
Tying tech to techpoints will really help balance this game from an "on paper" standpoint at least so that it will clearly define what needs adjustment. (both teams have 2 techpoints at the same time - so how does their accompanying tech match one another?)
Except the upgrades are created unequal and are not exactly comparable to the strength of having weapon/armor upgrades.
-Lerk is still a complete disaster (and easily killed = waste of p.res) since its t1 ability, poison bite, is made completely useless by a Marine commander that pays the slightest attention. Spikes is all over the place, back to being bad in 212. Hardly worth calling it a t2 ability at this point.
-Fade is a mess again. Shadow Step costing energy, no idea why they felt the need to change it. Vortex is both extreme powerful and completely useless for an "anti-personal" life form, and can be easily counter-able by building more than one of each structure. An w+m1 marine with flamethrower makes them a joke since they'll have no energy to use that t2 ability. Add in EMP and lol@fades. Bring back Acid rockets as a t3 and then were talkin'.
-Onos is a complete joke as an anti-structure/siege lifeform. Only destroys things slightly faster than a skulk (20 secs vs skulk's 25 on an rt... seriously?). Hilariously easily to kite by marines and made useless by a 10 p.res jet pack. The nerf speeds on carapace makes Onos slower than a 90 year old lady. Stomp is great!... when the game lags and marines can't match the animation to the stomp effect. Still no t3 ability, but the proposed overheal scream isn't going to make them useful. You got one chance to use an Onos currently since w3 tear through them like they're made of wet tissue paper and that's 75+ pres down the drain. If Marines have more than one base, then good luck finishing the game using onos. Cause you're not with the current Onos.
Tl;dr. Tier abilities isn't going to help make lifeforms any better when the life forms themselves don't even perform well. And the lack of scaling makes them even worse as the game continues.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, basically, if there's an imbalance occurring its because its damn difficult to balance an asymmetric game like this because you aren't simply pairing or matching armor levels per each tier.. instead you are supposed to plan out equivalencies like how A2 should be timed with blink or 2nd CC with BB etc etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're forgetting that not only are marines improving their survivability with armor, they are also simultaneously improving their killing power. Takes longer to kill them while they kill you faster. While leap helps you get closer, it doesn't help kill them faster when they can absorb 3-4 bites and all they need to do is turn around and one shot you with a shotgun. That is a huge discrepancy and a huge unbalance factor. It's the same with all life forms. Lerks getting blasted out of the air in a matter of seconds with a shotgun, but it takes them a lot longer for them to kill Marines. So how is it fair that a 30 res lifeform is unable to compete equally against a 20 res weapon? If lerks can kill a0/1 marines in 1-2 bites Marines would be screaming bloody murder, but marines cry when shotguns are unable to one shot skulks/lerks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So lets attempt to worth within those confines first - as we have tried weapon upgrades for aliens before and it didnt work so well - by providing feedback on what exactly needs adjustment , as this thread is already doing, ala carapace effectiveness etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Weapon upgrade doesn't have to be damage. It can just as easily be faster attack speeds. Or bring back focus from ns1 which is sorely needed. So far working with in "these confines" isn't working hence why we are having this discussion. The slow effect carapace really irks me when Marines suffer no penalty for their advanced armor. If A3 marines suffered an 8% slow down, Marine players wouldn't be too happy I'd take it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tying tech to techpoints will really help balance this game from an "on paper" standpoint at least so that it will clearly define what needs adjustment. (both teams have 2 techpoints at the same time - so how does their accompanying tech match one another?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tying tech abilities will help Marines out a lot, but I have a feeling Aliens are going to be having a hard time early game once this goes live. Just a feeling.
The reason why I'm suggesting a new alien structure that allows them to upgrade armor outside of crag tech is because of how crag hive is still the go to first hive. This would allow more choices which this game really freakin' needs as an alien. The suggestion to adding armor scaling to hives is all well and great, but with tier abilities going back to hive, aliens would be even MORE reliant on hives. Too much of that is not a good thing. Can easily go back to 3 structures for each upgrade, but then aliens would still be crag hive reliant.
A new structure is the only way I can see working at this point, diddling around is just going to waste time.
Another idea would be to add health/armor scaling with researched tier ability tech on top of hive health/armor scaling, but again, that's putting too much reliance on hives.
Carapace needs to stop being the most important / chosen upgrade path.
Btw. have I played on a modded server or do the people here talking about Xenocide without even trying it in 212?
It kicks ass right now.