fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1948458:date=Jul 2 2012, 08:27 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 2 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Search the forums for more in depth explanations on what went wrong, if you'd like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...and I have already explained why those explanations aren't worth the bits they're written in. Search the forums, if you'd like.
Fact remains: Crop duster spores are problematic for public play and useless for competitive play. While I agree that the game can't only cater to high level play, it certainly shouldn't only cater to low level play either.
In any case, what we write here doesn't really matter. It will only become more and more obvious how broken this mechanic is as time goes by, just like all the other broken mechanics some of us have been pointing out throughout the development of this game.
Personally i cannot see ranged spores being balanced unless they become significantly less effective. The tres medpack model just cannot support heavy gas pressure on marines. I believe that the ranged spikes translate better into the late game than having ranged spores instantly available. Now if spores and spikes were switched it may be possible, but honestly they both fill a similar role at that point. The lerk bite just needs to do a little more burst damage for it to work well currently, as going in for a single bite is useful as it forces medpacks, coupled with sporing and spikes makes the lerk quite effective. You really shouldnt be flying straight into shotgun marines, unless your doing it in tandem with skulks for distraction. From testing the lerk in the mod with just a slightly higher base damage bite and spores covering a slightly wider area it seems to play pretty well... The lerk was also back to its old HP and speed in the mod (125/30 and 13 speed).
Most lerks i watch play just fly in straight lines and just try to faceroll marines, you shouldnt be able to do that against a compentent marine, it should take good flying and movement, the lerk has so little restrictions on its movement. Making spikes have a dot wouldnt be good as you could just keep hiting marines from far away with a single shot just to get the dot.. just leave that for the bite. Your taking the most risk for the bite so it should have much greater reward (should do slightly more base damage, i think the mod was 60 normal).
Problem with this is you're very clearly rationalizing all sorts of design decisions after the fact (assume we need to have a DoT attack, "I guess it should go on the bite, you know...risk vs reward and all that....oh wait we just made the lerk more of a suicide machine, oh well")
Same deal with ranged spores - can't have them because of how they interact with some of the other knee-jerk designs (tres medpacks). A different way of saying the same thing is "the current spores don't put on enough pressure to stretch the medpack budget, because they simply aren't good." It's nothing to do with lerk players not trying - I assume people who have been really dedicated to the lerk aren't just brainlessly flying straight at people laying spores and hoping for the best.
I wish I could go back 8 or 10 months and say "we can't let ARCs be this good, because it will stretch the aliens too thin trying to defend it"..
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally i cannot see ranged spores being balanced unless they become significantly less effective. The tres medpack model just cannot support heavy gas pressure on marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't a problem in NS1. Feel free to point out why it's different in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe that the ranged spikes translate better into the late game than having ranged spores instantly available.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Balancing the current lerk for all skill levels will increasingly become a problem as client/server performance improves. We're already seeing the symptoms of this right now, with certain comp teams not even bothering having anyone go lerk (because they're useless without spikes, and it's usually a better idea to get leap, carapace, rts and a hive rather than research spikes).
The problem with the current spikes is that it isn't actually very hard to aim at a lerk flapping back and forth in the air while shooting you -- except poor client/server performance and hitreg issues makes aiming at anything moving at above walking speed a game of chance.
The problem with the current bite is that the DOT and negligible instant damage is more or less useless for anything other than annoying the other team.
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->going in for a single bite is useful as it forces medpacks, coupled with sporing and spikes makes the lerk quite effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Having to drop one or two medpacks on a single marine every now and then isn't exactly taxing the marine economy. Bite can never serve the economic warfare role the same way ranged spores used to.
The only way to make bite viable as a combat tool, is to increase DPS until a lerk can kill a marine faster than the marine can kill the lerk in melee combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You really shouldnt be flying straight into shotgun marines, unless your doing it in tandem with skulks for distraction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't matter how you attack shotgun marines; if you close in to melee range, provided the marine knows how to use the shotgun, there's a large chance you will die without accomplishing anything. Good shotgun players can turn 180 degrees and hit perfectly in the blink of an eye.
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From testing the lerk in the mod with just a slightly higher base damage bite and spores covering a slightly wider area it seems to play pretty well... The lerk was also back to its old HP and speed in the mod (125/30 and 13 speed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I tried the lerk in your mod, and while I like your mod as a whole, the lerk was barely an improvement over default.
<!--quoteo(post=1948479:date=Jul 2 2012, 05:26 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 2 2012, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good shotgun players can turn 180 degrees and hit perfectly in the blink of an eye.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously those guys are hacking. You could never do that at 24fps.
I'm not saying the lerk is perfect in the mod, more just an improvement working within the current boundaries... Playing intelligently you can be ahead of the marines, and setting up your spores in advanced, where the risk is lower. The marines either have to wait and you can re-gas, or push through. In late game it scales poorly because you need to start pushing back on the marines, and fight on their territory. Thats were i would imagine spikes can come in, but thats the area where i see lerk needing most work. But IMO lerk at that stage of the game is not something to focus on, there are alot of other gameplay issues that need the attention.
Regarding ranged spores they worked great in NS1 yes, but NS2 currently is at 1 tres per 6 seconds, vs 1 per 4 in NS1. You also got 1-3 rfk which would generally pay for one med should you still get the skulk kill. Dropping meds to 1 tres in NS2 could be used to balance that somewhat, but tends to make them spammy in situations where they shouldnt be. Regarding bite in the mod 3 bites would kill a vanilla marine, and my intent was to have the attack speed on bite much faster.
Regarding shotgunners my point was that you should never go in regardless of how, generally only with skulk(s) at the same time, which even then is a risk.
The main problem right now is that you start with two melee attacks, which make the lerk quite useless, he should have one ranged attack imo.
The simplest solution is to switch the order of bite and spikes in the tech tree (you start with spikes instead of bite).
Ideally the two abilities of the lerk should play well together, for example you damage a marine with spikes and finish him with bite once you estimate he's low health enough to be bitten down rapidly (tweak damage/energy to achieve that).
I don't really see how bite and melee spores can work well together, since once you're at melee range you want to use the one who deals the most dps.
<!--quoteo(post=1948480:date=Jul 2 2012, 02:37 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 2 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously those guys are hacking. You could never do that at 24fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get about 50-60 fps early game and can do it np. Before that performance boost, no.
<!--quoteo(post=1948491:date=Jul 2 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Jul 2 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get about 50-60 fps early game and can do it np. Before that performance boost, no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I finally played Lerk in this build tonight. Really enjoyed the new spikes, although I wish they did more damage. Feels more natural for them to spread, and to use at medium-short range.
I find the spread a bit annoying honestly, very random, makes little sense for me to sit still and have them still go everywhere. Generally means I spend most of my time just waiting for things to die as lerk.
I can see maybe it being good in a pitched high speed battle, but the best way to achieve a kill is to just sneak up on people by flanking them, and then I just have to mouse over and hold mouse1 until they die, which can take a while, it isn't very thrilling.
I do like the new effects though, can actually see where I'm shooting/being shot from.
<!--quoteo(post=1948505:date=Jul 2 2012, 07:20 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 2 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I finally played Lerk in this build tonight. Really enjoyed the new spikes, although I wish they did more damage. Feels more natural for them to spread, and to use at medium-short range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for actively harming the lerk with this feedback.
Melee spores is broken because lerks will get annihilated by any decent marine soon enough - it's really annoying that people refuse to use their crystal ball (or their head!) to predict this. It'll be highly effective at low skill ranges and incredibly ineffective at high skill ranges.
Ranged spores won't work if they maintain their primary function of visual obscuration (which, incidentally, gives me anger issues) - it's far too frustrating and powerful a skill to be castable from a distance. This is especially true if you ignore all the subtle solutions like momentum spores/spore-spikes/distance-tied spore radii that have been put forward but never tried.
I would be over the moon if ranged spores were re-introduced with an emphasis on making it a positive ability, perhaps accommodating one of the aforementioned solutions, though it worked fine in NS1 without.
Some limited uses might remain, even at high skill :
- Sporing to cover your escape - Sporing an hallway before the marines come to delay/hurt them (e.g. beacon+ hive push). - Sneaky sporing a group of marines in some parts of the map (e.g. glass in summit).
No real point discussing how things would play with perfect hit detection and fps, as we are no where near there. Skulk vs marine gameplay will be completely broken if that ever happens, so there will be far more important things to worry about.
I dont think hit detection and FPS in NS2 1.0 will be as clean as it was in NS1, gldsrc ran extremely well in that regard. You were pushing 1000 ticks a second stable and 100+ updates a second in gldsrc, with configurable interp (20ms? for comp play avg id say)... NS2 looks to be around 30 ticks for server with 100ms fixed interp, and client fps is still a big unknown. While those settings could be acceptable its hard to say exactly how the game will play then, and you really cant balance the game around what the performance 'might' be.
And also again you assume lerks will play the same role in NS2 the same way as NS1, which is quite untrue. While I prefer ranged spores to cropduster spores I still think they can be useful and not be suicide... They wont be the super strong eco drain they were in NS1, but NS2 cant really support that in the same way without RFK and/or faster tres income. You also are not going to be pushing siege bases like NS1, the gameplay is totally different there.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1948680:date=Jul 3 2012, 08:23 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 3 2012, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...and you really cant balance the game around what the performance 'might' be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But you can balance a game around what the performance <b>needs</b> to be.
If the current Skulk and Lerk are fine because the current level of performance (or a bit better in the future) is good enough, we may as well all start playing other games.
NS2 has so much riding on performance it is painful to watch.
<!--quoteo(post=1948709:date=Jul 3 2012, 05:18 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Jul 3 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But you can balance a game around what the performance <b>needs</b> to be.
If the current Skulk and Lerk are fine because the current level of performance (or a bit better in the future) is good enough, we may as well all start playing other games.
NS2 has so much riding on performance it is painful to watch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what's painful to watch is how many times "it's being worked on" and "devs are aware" is posted yet no noticeable gains happen. Look at what happened with diablo 3: blizzard released after lots of polish, but neglected to stress test the servers enough and they had lots of trouble on release. player counts tanked, and never really recovered. d3 has been in decline for a while now.
almost every time i play now i ragequit due to lag spikes/fps drops in combat. i really can't play it right now and have resolved just to let it sit until closer to release.
About the spikes, I don't like them, increasing the spread doesn't add anything, you just miss most of your shot even if you aim right. The other sound was much better also.
<!--quoteo(post=1948714:date=Jul 3 2012, 09:39 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 3 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what's painful to watch is how many times "it's being worked on" and "devs are aware" is posted yet no noticeable gains happen. Look at what happened with diablo 3: blizzard released after lots of polish, but neglected to stress test the servers enough and they had lots of trouble on release. player counts tanked, and never really recovered. d3 has been in decline for a while now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> D3 has a deplorable DRM-scheme, not bothered in the slightest about its decline\demise. But that's offtopic I guess.
The engine-devs have maintained what seems like a radio-silence for quite some time now, so I'm expecting at least something in that general area very soon indeed. Not so much a question of whether performance-improvements are coming (because in all probability they will), but more like whether it will be enough (I'm talking about the server mostly here, the numbers there are very depressing, I won't repeat the arithmetic here, but really, we're talking insane percentage-increases required). And as pointed out before, it needs to happen quite some time before release, to allow for re-balancing with the better aim\movement players will have.
<!--quoteo(post=1948625:date=Jul 3 2012, 03:35 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 3 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some limited uses might remain, even at high skill :
- Sporing to cover your escape - Sporing an hallway before the marines come to delay/hurt them (e.g. beacon+ hive push). - Sneaky sporing a group of marines in some parts of the map (e.g. glass in summit).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, especially with the "limited" ;).
<!--quoteo(post=1948723:date=Jul 3 2012, 05:50 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 3 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948723"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The engine-devs have maintained what seems like a radio-silence for quite some time now, so I'm expecting at least something in that general area very soon indeed. Not so much a question of whether performance-improvements are coming (because in all probability they will), but more like whether it will be enough (I'm talking about the server mostly here, the numbers there are very depressing, I won't repeat the arithmetic here, but really, we're talking insane percentage-increases required). And as pointed out before, it needs to happen quite some time before release, to allow for re-balancing with the better aim\movement players will have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's been about 30 builds since any sort of performance gains happened. every build has been a steady decline in server performance and client performance. i don't have a top of the line beast machine, but i have a decent rig. i drop into single digit fps in some firefights. are things really going to get that much better? they promised a 2x performance increase, but that only boosts me to 15-20 fps. there's only so much overpromising and underdelivering that can happen before people quit out of frustration. ns2 used to be really fun for me, when i could actually aim at things and not have a slideshow or more likely just skipped frames until i'm dead. there is 0 point to releasing builds to the public except for those with oc'd i5's and i7's. and even they are dropping into the 20s from having spoken to people running those rigs. we were promised significant performance gains but none/very little of that has materialized as of yet. and release is 2 months away. i hate writing this stuff but i'm just really really frustrated at the state of the game right now.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1948470:date=Jul 2 2012, 01:39 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 2 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...and I have already explained why those explanations aren't worth the bits they're written in. Search the forums, if you'd like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You and i weren't in a discussion so i don't understand the defensive post, fana? As for your explanations i don't think they are good enough, as i said: some adjustments fix most issues. Whereas the nostalgic fueled model you propose is one that encourages a type of play that the developers don't wish to pursue - and I am in agreement with this after playing with it for a year. But bottom line: neither one of us own a crystal ball so we'll have to play this one out and see. :)
edit: btw, the lerk dying more in ns2 as a result of said crop dusting spores would suggest a higher skill ceiling, not a lower one.
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 02:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: btw, the lerk dying more in ns2 as a result of said crop dusting spores would suggest a higher skill ceiling, not a lower one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 03:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: btw, the lerk dying more in ns2 as a result of said crop dusting spores would suggest a higher skill ceiling, not a lower one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesnt take alot of skill to fly in and spore... it really doesn't. Any skill in crop dusting is derivative of very very basic lerk movement skills which applies also to spiking and biting (these latter two require more movement skillset by far). I don't know how you can draw the conclusion you did in support of crop dusting. If doing something results in you dying more for not much gain, repeating that action is generally said to be the antithesis of 'skillful' play.
Skill aside, its just not practical or fun to design and base the lerk around that sort of play with crop dusting spores. Its a feature, but its not by definition the very core of lerk, which i think is spike and fast movement. Yea flying like a maniac and sporing over 10 marines can be sorta fun for a while, but its something that ends up being tastefully applied and not by any means a staple of engaging and efficient lerk play.
Anyway, yea spikes are currently horrendously bad. Rewarding spray and pray, punishing aim is not good design. Don't mind too much that spores are bad for direct combat as long as we get good spike lerk play. I think UWE got slightly mixed up about what we really meant when we all asked for shotgun spikes back.
*edit* i get the arguement for ranged spores and ns1 lerk style, but i kinda liked the ns2 spike style better.. dont shoot me! :p
well, maybe the problem with cropduster spores is that the reward doesn't justify the risk. if the spore damage ramped up with time spent in the cloud, it might mean a lerk could try to anticipate marine movement with his spore placement, make spores viable as area denial again. the dot right now is annoying, but not really deadly.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You and i weren't in a discussion so i don't understand the defensive post, fana?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been in similar discussions with you regarding the lerk on many occasions. My intention wasn't to be defensive, but I wanted to emphasise my irritation at you pretending that you have previously settled the matter, so to say, which is far from the truth.
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whereas the nostalgic fueled model you propose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You talk the talk (about good discussion etiquette), but you don't walk the walk.
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->is one that encourages a type of play that the developers don't wish to pursue - and I am in agreement with this after playing with it for a year.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is an argument I see thrown around often, but I don't buy it. The removal of ranged spores happened concurrently with the removal of the sniper spike and a massive rework of the flight model. Those two changes alone would be enough to explain the change in lerk behavior, even if the lerk still had ranged spores.
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But bottom line: neither one of us own a crystal ball so we'll have to play this one out and see. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but I have a wealth of experience, which you lack, which gives me the ability to make predictions with a high level of probability. Judging by the hit/miss rate of my predictions so far, I don't have any reasons to start doubting my own judgement yet.
Medium plus ranged spikes to counter the shotgun. At the moment jp/sg counter all the alien lifeforms. If the want close range spikes bring back the old shotgunspikes for short range.
It also gives the alien team some variation with a ranged class.
The spores.... I dont know maybe it will work with crop duster spores maybe it wont. Atleast you wont be able the play the lerk the same way you do now. Lerk moves in first and spores and then the skulks attack.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1948870:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:14 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 4 2012, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been in similar discussions with you regarding the lerk on many occasions. My intention wasn't to be defensive, but I wanted to emphasise my irritation at you pretending that you have previously settled the matter, so to say, which is far from the truth.
You talk the talk (about good discussion etiquette), but you don't walk the walk.
This is an argument I see thrown around often, but I don't buy it. The removal of ranged spores happened concurrently with the removal of the sniper spike and a massive rework of the flight model. Those two changes alone would be enough to explain the change in lerk behavior, even if the lerk still had ranged spores.
True, but I have a wealth of experience, which you lack, which gives me the ability to make predictions with a high level of probability. Judging by the hit/miss rate of my predictions so far, I don't have any reasons to start doubting my own judgement yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The matter has been settled as to the reasons and intended direction for the class, by both the devs and then again repeated by myself. Any further explanation or dissection into why or the specifics can be debated back and forth if someone such as yourself is not satisfied by the said reasons and direction - but it does not mean it is not settled - it just means you are dissatisfied.
If suggesting that your proposal is nostalgia fueled is going to be considered going over the line of discussion etiquette.. then what do your posts to me constitute as? :-/
I get that this has arisen from you wishing to rehash a discussion that has occurred previously. As mentioned by myself, its been reasoned by the devs already, and i get that you are dissatisfied with said reasons. This is fine as this is the place to discuss, its "general discussion", but it would be nice to have said discussions in a<u> non hostile environment</u>. I get that you feel you can predict things and I understand you feel i am not doing enough to demonstrate "etiquette" .. so i will attempt to improve - but i will ask you for the same, as attempts at insults such as "experience which you lack" are not conducive to "discussions"..<b> in fact they just derail them. </b>Remember that you choose to respond to my posts, just as i do to you,<i> so lets keep it civil.</i>
Finally, your wealth of experience, though it may be so - derives down to tactics, aim, and familiarity with a previous product... but putting thousands of hours into a game is not generally something that makes a good game designer, <b>imo</b>. I wouldn't even believe the world's best FPS player could design a half decent game, considering most of their time/experience is spent aiming.. not designing. Though Your viewpoint is welcomed, taken into account, and often held in high regard - i often quote you internally for things you suggest -<i> I politely suggest that your experience with NS1 is not the only requirement for <b>game design</b></i>, so i stick to the direction of the game developers on this one. That's my viewpoint and I hope you understand.
Comments
...and I have already explained why those explanations aren't worth the bits they're written in. Search the forums, if you'd like.
Fact remains: Crop duster spores are problematic for public play and useless for competitive play. While I agree that the game can't only cater to high level play, it certainly shouldn't only cater to low level play either.
In any case, what we write here doesn't really matter. It will only become more and more obvious how broken this mechanic is as time goes by, just like all the other broken mechanics some of us have been pointing out throughout the development of this game.
Most lerks i watch play just fly in straight lines and just try to faceroll marines, you shouldnt be able to do that against a compentent marine, it should take good flying and movement, the lerk has so little restrictions on its movement. Making spikes have a dot wouldnt be good as you could just keep hiting marines from far away with a single shot just to get the dot.. just leave that for the bite. Your taking the most risk for the bite so it should have much greater reward (should do slightly more base damage, i think the mod was 60 normal).
Same deal with ranged spores - can't have them because of how they interact with some of the other knee-jerk designs (tres medpacks). A different way of saying the same thing is "the current spores don't put on enough pressure to stretch the medpack budget, because they simply aren't good." It's nothing to do with lerk players not trying - I assume people who have been really dedicated to the lerk aren't just brainlessly flying straight at people laying spores and hoping for the best.
I wish I could go back 8 or 10 months and say "we can't let ARCs be this good, because it will stretch the aliens too thin trying to defend it"..
Basically what I'm saying is this is silly!
Wasn't a problem in NS1. Feel free to point out why it's different in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe that the ranged spikes translate better into the late game than having ranged spores instantly available.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balancing the current lerk for all skill levels will increasingly become a problem as client/server performance improves. We're already seeing the symptoms of this right now, with certain comp teams not even bothering having anyone go lerk (because they're useless without spikes, and it's usually a better idea to get leap, carapace, rts and a hive rather than research spikes).
The problem with the current spikes is that it isn't actually very hard to aim at a lerk flapping back and forth in the air while shooting you -- except poor client/server performance and hitreg issues makes aiming at anything moving at above walking speed a game of chance.
The problem with the current bite is that the DOT and negligible instant damage is more or less useless for anything other than annoying the other team.
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->going in for a single bite is useful as it forces medpacks, coupled with sporing and spikes makes the lerk quite effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having to drop one or two medpacks on a single marine every now and then isn't exactly taxing the marine economy. Bite can never serve the economic warfare role the same way ranged spores used to.
The only way to make bite viable as a combat tool, is to increase DPS until a lerk can kill a marine faster than the marine can kill the lerk in melee combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You really shouldnt be flying straight into shotgun marines, unless your doing it in tandem with skulks for distraction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't matter how you attack shotgun marines; if you close in to melee range, provided the marine knows how to use the shotgun, there's a large chance you will die without accomplishing anything. Good shotgun players can turn 180 degrees and hit perfectly in the blink of an eye.
<!--quoteo(post=1948473:date=Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From testing the lerk in the mod with just a slightly higher base damage bite and spores covering a slightly wider area it seems to play pretty well... The lerk was also back to its old HP and speed in the mod (125/30 and 13 speed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried the lerk in your mod, and while I like your mod as a whole, the lerk was barely an improvement over default.
Obviously those guys are hacking. You could never do that at 24fps.
Regarding ranged spores they worked great in NS1 yes, but NS2 currently is at 1 tres per 6 seconds, vs 1 per 4 in NS1. You also got 1-3 rfk which would generally pay for one med should you still get the skulk kill. Dropping meds to 1 tres in NS2 could be used to balance that somewhat, but tends to make them spammy in situations where they shouldnt be. Regarding bite in the mod 3 bites would kill a vanilla marine, and my intent was to have the attack speed on bite much faster.
Regarding shotgunners my point was that you should never go in regardless of how, generally only with skulk(s) at the same time, which even then is a risk.
The simplest solution is to switch the order of bite and spikes in the tech tree (you start with spikes instead of bite).
Ideally the two abilities of the lerk should play well together, for example you damage a marine with spikes and finish him with bite once you estimate he's low health enough to be bitten down rapidly (tweak damage/energy to achieve that).
I don't really see how bite and melee spores can work well together, since once you're at melee range you want to use the one who deals the most dps.
I get about 50-60 fps early game and can do it np. Before that performance boost, no.
whooooooooooooosh
I can see maybe it being good in a pitched high speed battle, but the best way to achieve a kill is to just sneak up on people by flanking them, and then I just have to mouse over and hold mouse1 until they die, which can take a while, it isn't very thrilling.
I do like the new effects though, can actually see where I'm shooting/being shot from.
Thank you for actively harming the lerk with this feedback.
Ranged spores won't work if they maintain their primary function of visual obscuration (which, incidentally, gives me anger issues) - it's far too frustrating and powerful a skill to be castable from a distance. This is especially true if you ignore all the subtle solutions like momentum spores/spore-spikes/distance-tied spore radii that have been put forward but never tried.
I would be over the moon if ranged spores were re-introduced with an emphasis on making it a positive ability, perhaps accommodating one of the aforementioned solutions, though it worked fine in NS1 without.
- Sporing to cover your escape
- Sporing an hallway before the marines come to delay/hurt them (e.g. beacon+ hive push).
- Sneaky sporing a group of marines in some parts of the map (e.g. glass in summit).
I dont think hit detection and FPS in NS2 1.0 will be as clean as it was in NS1, gldsrc ran extremely well in that regard. You were pushing 1000 ticks a second stable and 100+ updates a second in gldsrc, with configurable interp (20ms? for comp play avg id say)... NS2 looks to be around 30 ticks for server with 100ms fixed interp, and client fps is still a big unknown. While those settings could be acceptable its hard to say exactly how the game will play then, and you really cant balance the game around what the performance 'might' be.
And also again you assume lerks will play the same role in NS2 the same way as NS1, which is quite untrue. While I prefer ranged spores to cropduster spores I still think they can be useful and not be suicide... They wont be the super strong eco drain they were in NS1, but NS2 cant really support that in the same way without RFK and/or faster tres income. You also are not going to be pushing siege bases like NS1, the gameplay is totally different there.
But you can balance a game around what the performance <b>needs</b> to be.
If the current Skulk and Lerk are fine because the current level of performance (or a bit better in the future) is good enough, we may as well all start playing other games.
NS2 has so much riding on performance it is painful to watch.
If the current Skulk and Lerk are fine because the current level of performance (or a bit better in the future) is good enough, we may as well all start playing other games.
NS2 has so much riding on performance it is painful to watch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what's painful to watch is how many times "it's being worked on" and "devs are aware" is posted yet no noticeable gains happen. Look at what happened with diablo 3: blizzard released after lots of polish, but neglected to stress test the servers enough and they had lots of trouble on release. player counts tanked, and never really recovered. d3 has been in decline for a while now.
almost every time i play now i ragequit due to lag spikes/fps drops in combat. i really can't play it right now and have resolved just to let it sit until closer to release.
D3 has a deplorable DRM-scheme, not bothered in the slightest about its decline\demise. But that's offtopic I guess.
The engine-devs have maintained what seems like a radio-silence for quite some time now, so I'm expecting at least something in that general area very soon indeed. Not so much a question of whether performance-improvements are coming (because in all probability they will), but more like whether it will be enough (I'm talking about the server mostly here, the numbers there are very depressing, I won't repeat the arithmetic here, but really, we're talking insane percentage-increases required). And as pointed out before, it needs to happen quite some time before release, to allow for re-balancing with the better aim\movement players will have.
- Sporing to cover your escape
- Sporing an hallway before the marines come to delay/hurt them (e.g. beacon+ hive push).
- Sneaky sporing a group of marines in some parts of the map (e.g. glass in summit).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, especially with the "limited" ;).
it's been about 30 builds since any sort of performance gains happened. every build has been a steady decline in server performance and client performance. i don't have a top of the line beast machine, but i have a decent rig. i drop into single digit fps in some firefights. are things really going to get that much better? they promised a 2x performance increase, but that only boosts me to 15-20 fps. there's only so much overpromising and underdelivering that can happen before people quit out of frustration. ns2 used to be really fun for me, when i could actually aim at things and not have a slideshow or more likely just skipped frames until i'm dead. there is 0 point to releasing builds to the public except for those with oc'd i5's and i7's. and even they are dropping into the 20s from having spoken to people running those rigs. we were promised significant performance gains but none/very little of that has materialized as of yet. and release is 2 months away. i hate writing this stuff but i'm just really really frustrated at the state of the game right now.
You and i weren't in a discussion so i don't understand the defensive post, fana?
As for your explanations i don't think they are good enough, as i said: some adjustments fix most issues.
Whereas the nostalgic fueled model you propose is one that encourages a type of play that the developers don't wish to pursue - and I am in agreement with this after playing with it for a year. But bottom line: neither one of us own a crystal ball so we'll have to play this one out and see. :)
edit: btw, the lerk dying more in ns2 as a result of said crop dusting spores would suggest a higher skill ceiling, not a lower one.
Another great joke by NS2PT team!
It doesnt take alot of skill to fly in and spore... it really doesn't. Any skill in crop dusting is derivative of very very basic lerk movement skills which applies also to spiking and biting (these latter two require more movement skillset by far). I don't know how you can draw the conclusion you did in support of crop dusting. If doing something results in you dying more for not much gain, repeating that action is generally said to be the antithesis of 'skillful' play.
Skill aside, its just not practical or fun to design and base the lerk around that sort of play with crop dusting spores. Its a feature, but its not by definition the very core of lerk, which i think is spike and fast movement. Yea flying like a maniac and sporing over 10 marines can be sorta fun for a while, but its something that ends up being tastefully applied and not by any means a staple of engaging and efficient lerk play.
Anyway, yea spikes are currently horrendously bad. Rewarding spray and pray, punishing aim is not good design. Don't mind too much that spores are bad for direct combat as long as we get good spike lerk play. I think UWE got slightly mixed up about what we really meant when we all asked for shotgun spikes back.
*edit* i get the arguement for ranged spores and ns1 lerk style, but i kinda liked the ns2 spike style better.. dont shoot me! :p
I've been in similar discussions with you regarding the lerk on many occasions. My intention wasn't to be defensive, but I wanted to emphasise my irritation at you pretending that you have previously settled the matter, so to say, which is far from the truth.
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whereas the nostalgic fueled model you propose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You talk the talk (about good discussion etiquette), but you don't walk the walk.
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->is one that encourages a type of play that the developers don't wish to pursue - and I am in agreement with this after playing with it for a year.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an argument I see thrown around often, but I don't buy it. The removal of ranged spores happened concurrently with the removal of the sniper spike and a massive rework of the flight model. Those two changes alone would be enough to explain the change in lerk behavior, even if the lerk still had ranged spores.
<!--quoteo(post=1948787:date=Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But bottom line: neither one of us own a crystal ball so we'll have to play this one out and see. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but I have a wealth of experience, which you lack, which gives me the ability to make predictions with a high level of probability. Judging by the hit/miss rate of my predictions so far, I don't have any reasons to start doubting my own judgement yet.
If the want close range spikes bring back the old shotgunspikes for short range.
It also gives the alien team some variation with a ranged class.
The spores.... I dont know maybe it will work with crop duster spores maybe it wont. Atleast you wont be able the play the lerk the same way you do now. Lerk moves in first and spores and then the skulks attack.
You talk the talk (about good discussion etiquette), but you don't walk the walk.
This is an argument I see thrown around often, but I don't buy it. The removal of ranged spores happened concurrently with the removal of the sniper spike and a massive rework of the flight model. Those two changes alone would be enough to explain the change in lerk behavior, even if the lerk still had ranged spores.
True, but I have a wealth of experience, which you lack, which gives me the ability to make predictions with a high level of probability. Judging by the hit/miss rate of my predictions so far, I don't have any reasons to start doubting my own judgement yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The matter has been settled as to the reasons and intended direction for the class, by both the devs and then again repeated by myself. Any further explanation or dissection into why or the specifics can be debated back and forth if someone such as yourself is not satisfied by the said reasons and direction - but it does not mean it is not settled - it just means you are dissatisfied.
If suggesting that your proposal is nostalgia fueled is going to be considered going over the line of discussion etiquette.. then what do your posts to me constitute as? :-/
I get that this has arisen from you wishing to rehash a discussion that has occurred previously. As mentioned by myself, its been reasoned by the devs already, and i get that you are dissatisfied with said reasons. This is fine as this is the place to discuss, its "general discussion", but it would be nice to have said discussions in a<u> non hostile environment</u>. I get that you feel you can predict things and I understand you feel i am not doing enough to demonstrate "etiquette" .. so i will attempt to improve - but i will ask you for the same, as attempts at insults such as "experience which you lack" are not conducive to "discussions"..<b> in fact they just derail them. </b>Remember that you choose to respond to my posts, just as i do to you,<i> so lets keep it civil.</i>
Finally, your wealth of experience, though it may be so - derives down to tactics, aim, and familiarity with a previous product... but putting thousands of hours into a game is not generally something that makes a good game designer, <b>imo</b>. I wouldn't even believe the world's best FPS player could design a half decent game, considering most of their time/experience is spent aiming.. not designing.
Though Your viewpoint is welcomed, taken into account, and often held in high regard - i often quote you internally for things you suggest -<i> I politely suggest that your experience with NS1 is not the only requirement for <b>game design</b></i>, so i stick to the direction of the game developers on this one. That's my viewpoint and I hope you understand.