Time spend waiting for respawn
Nakorson
Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Comments
Instead of starting off with a small snow ball gaining more and more momentum and size. To create a avalanche. It's more like the first one or two engagements are more like a bus veering out of control. One chance to recover if you can't you flip to your doom off a cliff into a exploding fire ball. Then covered in snow.
The Rez still ticks over. Lose a fight die from 4-8 ish seconds the enemy all now have two ta three more Rez towers. They are going to protect them. They may of even killed one or two of yours. So not only are you losing out on Rez while dead you have lost ground, enemy's gained or gaining surplus of Rez.
If you can't get revenge this next time. Or get behind them evade them hit there Rez before they can take more or take down yours. Ya doomed. Already bottled necked in spawn. But that point ya lucky to have enough for lerk or shot gun. If you do take on that role or equipment and die or in the rines case die alone and no one can pick up that gun. Your pretty much buggered . Spawn camped. Wich makes it even harder for kharaa. As one the eggs can be taken out while kharaa are in them. And unless com spawns a class egg. You have to pick up what ever upgrades. Might be good if kharaa got a death buy menu. To pick next spawn type. You would still have gastae time still chance of death while egging. But it's not like you spawned choose to fight as a weakest skulk. Or egg in which case you may of been detected and rines are going to pop you.
A rine steps out of the ip at his upgrade lvl fully functional. It's not like he's gotta go over to the ip and spend five seconds doing a animation putting on armor. How fast can a rine run and book it in the time it takes to egg and upgrade life forms and chambers.
Egging time is there in theory to make sure if a marine spawned got equipment moved to kharaa base 1km away, if a kharaa spawned at same time and egg upgraded then went towards enemy base. They would meet some were around the middle. Is this now the case with marines able to book it sprint. Eh maybe, do jp, fade lerk cross each other and cover 2 thirds of 1 km. and will heavys gorge and onos only cover 1/3rd to 1/4quarter of the 1 km. Km distance. In turn would lerk fade jp all hit the center of map at same time. If that was the upgrade choice? Would onos heavy gorge all hit the center of map at about the same time. If that was the choice. Baring in mind gorge may egg faster then onos but stops to drop structures heals does his roll and onos runs faster.
So I guess the solution is as a team based game your only as strong as your weakest link. Even if that weakest link maybe the toughest unit. You shouldn't run ahead of the pack Nore fall behind. So if both groups spawned up gradeded ran that 1km distance as a group or team as the speed of the slowest unit. Would they met at the Rez tower in the center and duke it out. If the question is no. One sides already taken that tower fortified it and are moving to the enemy's base. Then something is wrong and numbers need to be tweaked.
Fortunately we arnt doing a 1 km sprint. And have multiple paths hive/cc locations, spawns, paths junctions Rez nodes, twist turns. So those numbers don't become as aparent. Until you master that learning curve.
A god example of this is say crevasse res node and one team starts in atrium the other blah blah. People will say it's not a good example. If both sides spawn at base with a direct path and a Rez node in the center. Which team gets there first. Kharaa they normally arnt building base bits and move faster no res que no upgrades. But they can't take it they need infestation. At this point both sides send a contingent to take the rest of the map. The back way Just as the infest starts getting close. Engadgment. Rines win or vice vercer. either way winner normally takes that rez. Losing side respawn. They may take that Rez block off that rougte. But that's not the point. When that fights decided how much ground did the contingent cover on both sides how many nodes did they get. We're did their Engadgment erupt.
The answer to this question with any competent players. Rines hold more nodes. Rines can book it and don't need infest to grow between node placement. They can speed up build process. Is the time it takes to build a few odd missing power cores and build res nodes worth it compared to the time it takes a skulk to chew a power node. wait for infest to grow wait for Rez node to grow. Move on? A smart kharmander might build one Rez node but spam half or up to more than half the map with infest. But still takes time to grow. Kharaa need to wait before dropping more nodes and players are skulk for longer with out upgrades. But that's almost out of the scope of this boundary. As cysts can't be spammed this early and rine contingent can easyily counter that.
You see kharaamanders growth rate is limited, capped by timed numbers. A gorge can speed up the growth rate of a Rez node. But is then slower than the growth rate of the infest exspances.
Marine com is only limited by the speed of the marine contingents ability to move and build. Which is faster the more numbers they have. Without lose of security. Ghost structures don't cost t Rez if disturbed.
If kharaa want to skulk to a node each and temp gorge. More time lost egging. Now venerable not effective as gorge. Still must wait for cysts. Infestation. Separation venerable.
Now look at t res starting amount. Res tick rate. Cost of power nodes vs cyst cost. Build time verses infest growth. It might take 4-8 cyst to bridge one Rez node to another in a flimsy venerable chain. That takes time to grow. Plas with micro management. Rine com does it in two-three clicks. Node here node mini map node there.
So one must conclude that no Rez when dead punishes kharaa more than rines. That the side that loses the first two engadgments pretty much determines the out come of the map. That rines expand faster and can pick up each others weapons. That rines spawning combat ready makes it harder for kharaa to exploit no Rez on death. And that rines able to kill eggs, drop ghost structures for free. Build only limited by player speed and numbers can exploit map control and farm kharaa spawn more freely. Bringing back Rez on death isn't the only solution here. Increasing egg respawn time and shortening kharaa respawn que isn't the only solution here.
At least with mini cysts kharaa could temp gorge com could drop Rez and join up the chain. But with out free hyper mutation. Skulk now has no Rez.
I'd suggest kharaa death life form buy menu so they spend res while dead but spawn combat ready
And researchable kharaa upgrade "absorb bacteria."
On kharaa life form death. Rag doll remains persistent. For x seconds maybe twenty. If kharaa player x is within radius Y of persistent life form rag doll model Z and enters buy menu. Circle persintent dead life forms icon Z allow evolve to life form X for free. Vfx skulk runs over stands on fade corpse, goes into a egg, fade corpse breaks down, is absorbed into egg. Standard egg hatch time for fading. Skulk spawns as fade. Maybe it's a small Rez cost. Still means kharaa must secure a area. Or make sure no rines near by for venerable egging period.
Then look at the 1km sprint model adjust book it and infest growth rate. Combat should be at center of 1 km long sprint map at Rex node. Not skewed from game begin count down.
Make a test map x units long semi strait bullet proof glass force fields, or zig zag , so rines can't shoot the whole map. Rez node at center. Rez node at the quarter distances texture markers on walls for distances. Run a few games with confident players semi team friendly. print screen record compile data. Adjust core game numbers . repeat.
That's exactly what i mean
@Nex9
I'm still reading through your really long text. But what did you mean with "I think it shouldn't of been implimented." I'm not sure what you don't want to have implemented?
Okay now i'm pretty much through the post. It seems to me you got distracted and posted about a lot of things but not really regarding my question. Although i agree on some points with you.
My point of this post was. That it seems that the marines respawn faster in general than aliens. And since you don't get any resources while you're dead, the marines seem to gain more resources over all.
Edit:
Although it has nothing to do with my initial post.
I think the alien spawning has a lot of things that could be improved. The most important for me is that it became nearly impossible to pick a egg at specific hive.
Something that I think would improve wave spawning is a countdown on the HUD that says when the next wave is due. If you learn to time it right, it will make it less frustrating to do suicide runs as a Skulk.
I think also it's something about why I'm waiting to spawn. On marines, my view switches immediately to the IP and I see it spinning up, or it tells me that there are no free IPs right now, and I think 'that makes sense'.
With aliens, it just says 'you will spawn in 12 seconds' and I think 'why?'.
I don't get why I'm waiting to spawn, there's a hive there, it isn't doing anything, why am I waiting 12 seconds?
Well, ideally yeah, it'd say 'waiting for eggs, your egg will spawn in X seconds' or something, but I thought they added some sort of wave system? If so there isn't really a good explanation for that.
The aliens should be able to pick a egg while they're waiting to spawn.
At least with a marine you see your ip being chomped you know your going to spawn 3/3 with a full lmg skulks on varying healths in front of you. With kharaa no marines standing on your egg. He's keeping as much distance and his cross hair on your egg. Your ques long you spawn as a basic skulk. From possibly the last egg ages before another spawns well seams long. We're are you in que. admittedly echo helps with this a lot. But the rines can still pop eggs before the despawn animation of the teleporting egg... I think.
Rines base again he could instantly pick up a better weapon on ground or if he lives or gets to make a pass are armory instantly buy a new shot gun. Coms spammed meds every we're every step or chomp back to full health. That one shot gun could cycle through the next 5 rines spawning and dying before they take out all the kharaa. If say shoe on the other foot 30 Rez lerk dies at hive plus others, no one can get lerk back. All spawn one by one from slow respawning eggs as basic skulks into a shooting gallery. No Rez gained, no chance to go better life form. If you spawn evolve cara they are going to pop your egg before it hatches.
Shades permer cloak eggs perhaps. Doesn't matter really all my suggestions are either upgrades or require a up grade or tech path for kharaa. It's not like rine guns need to research nannites persistence so they remain after rine dies. It's not like they need to research combat readiness to spawn from ip as a 3/3 with a full lmg. And it's not like kharaa have to much ranged to kill a axe wielding enemy from a distance if rines didn't spawn with rifles. As well as the fact rines prolly took more res nodes to begin with.
Yes but if aliens are in general longer dead this system favors the marines.
It's pretty bad for new players and skulks.
It's pretty bad for new players and skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which actually became worse with 212 since you have now to pay for your upgrades, even if it is just 1 res per upgrade.
Aliens are in general also faster back in action... (so if you think about walking time added to respawn time...)
While it is true that aliens might lose a tiny bit more res because respawning takes a little longer every now and then (we are speaking here about around 1 res average depending how many rts you have), marines have a lot more resdrains they need to buy every now and then (welders, mines)
Also its harder to attack the alien respawn system, lots of eggs, emergency spawn system(dunno if this still exists, if low on eggs it spawns eggs faster), and there are even structures now that can produce eggs... compared to ips that are at a fixed position and not in high amounts.
I dunno...
But yeah would be nice to be able to select your egg again.
That said they're more likely to lose even more res over time than marines.
I too also hate the "no res on death" thing, especially considering the endgame fragility of skulk and the fact that you should be suiciding via xenocide or taking big risks to take down RT/tech before that JP comes and kills you. How are you supposed to contribute to your team and get res for a more useful lifeform at the same time? It's boring sitting in your base waiting for res ticks, but it's what you're currently encouraged to do in late game.
There are too many factors to take into account when 'balancing' it against the very simple marines' system. Too many mechanics serving different purposes (many of them seeming to be just for novelty, i.e. having eggs in the first place). Too much trying to shorehorn 'proper gameplay' with things like respawn waves, when players are already free to group up and wait for teammates. Most team based FPS games don't force whole teams to stay dead together while their opponents get to respawn nonstop.
Basically what I'm saying is "NS1lol"
I don't mind the eggs, but this respawn system for aliens just awful.
Coupled with xeno being weak as p1ss and having to pay to upgrade cara etc the alien p-res system seems broken IMO, I mean a late game vanilla marine absolutely destroys a late game alien (assuming lifeform right out of spawning).
Aliens are there for going to have to spend more res as their default lifeform mid-late in game is fodder. The alien has 2 options...be fodder and get punished through no res when dead...or try to hide and stay alive long enough to get enough res to be able to evolve into something other than a skulk (which is needed if the aliens want to win). Neither of these are overly great strategic options that help your side win).
Lifeforms right off the IP/out of the egg should be equal either that or you need to favour the weaker side in the res structure so they can afford to get onto a level pegging. Cara etc should operate similar to NS1...or some other way to ensure late game spawned aliens are not "wet paper bags" compared to a similarly vanilla marine.
You die, you get in the spawn queue for egg. Once an egg is available the countdown starts and after X seconds you spawn of the egg.
Optional: soft wave spawn. If two players are about to spawn in a short time windows, one player get slightly delayed and the other slightly advanced, so that they spawn at the same time.
For example player A will spawn in 8 seconds, players B in 6 seconds. The spawn system makes them spawn together at 7.
Player A will spawn in 8 seconds, player B in 2 seconds, nothing happens, because you can't delay player B that much.
You die, you get in the spawn queue for egg. Once an egg is available the countdown starts and after X seconds you spawn of the egg.
Optional: soft wave spawn. If two players are about to spawn in a short time windows, one player get slightly delayed and the other slightly advanced, so that they spawn at the same time.
For example player A will spawn in 8 seconds, players B in 6 seconds. The spawn system makes them spawn together at 7.
Player A will spawn in 8 seconds, player B in 2 seconds, nothing happens, because you can't delay player B that much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sound good to me but i would add or make it more clear that the aliens should be able to pick their desired egg as soon as a egg is available and not 1 sec for they actually spawn.
What was the purpose behind the wave spawn system?
Vaguely related: I'd like to see ARCs no longer able to damage eggs, it's insult to injury the way they ruin spawning on top of wrecking all your structures.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A relatively simple system would be to have a spawn wave every 8 (or maybe 10) seconds. As soon as a player dies, he gets one of the existing eggs and can choose if he wants to spawn there or choose another egg until the wave-counter hits 0. Than he respawns automatically on the current selected egg.
If the egg is killed in the time he waits for respawn, the player is simply send to another egg. No reset of the spawn wave counter.
If there are not enough eggs for all dead players, the player gets a message stating that fact and he has to wait for the next spawn wave.
If a player had to wait because of missing eggs, a new egg is created to ensure that no player has to wait more than two spawn waves.