<!--quoteo(post=1949061:date=Jul 5 2012, 09:49 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 5 2012, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously the purpose of the thread was to start a discussion how to balance out the healing of the marines and the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A'right, it's your thread. Have at it. :) So far I can't see a reason for any change.
Sometimes a really good game design has 99 cool feaures but at a cost of 1 sucky feature, I guess I see it like that: There's a lot of good gameplay in the asymetry of hives having lots of HP and sometimes marines fail the first attack but can come back for a second try. The one downside is that it can be boring for a gorge to heal the hive.
Sometimes the marines kill the hive on the first try and other times the marines barely do any damage before they're wiped out. Passive regen means you don't have to do the repair work every time. Maybe its a problem for people who like to play as a gorge more often than not? I like to play as marine 50% of the time, and cmdr/kmdr maybe 20% of the time, so maybe two games out of five I'm an alien and then i'll mix it up by being different lifeforms throughout the game. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me.
Just re-read the thread checking for solutions to the problem. So far we've got... > Necro's ban gorge healing the hive idea Good except it reduces your options, reduces the depth of the game.
> Necro's fast heal/slow heal idea Looks like most people favour the system where marines can kill a hive over two or more assaults. If we were ready to give up that, then you couldjust make the hive have a passive regen that ramps up like the welder does currently, no need for the gorge to be involved and saves complexity with making a special case for gorges healing hives.
>Ice30's crags should heal the hive better How much better? Crags could be spammed around the hive which could mess about with combat DPS quite a bit. It could also impact on marine ability to make those extra assaults by healing the hive too much too quickly.
>Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. Marines don't have to be bored repairing a CC, while aliens have to Well, honestly you don't see marines welding while aliens are standing beside them attacking the same structure so that's kind of a non-issue, right? The reverse is possible because the marines have ranged attack. Not sure what's actually being proposed here. Also, nobody's holding a gun to the gorges head saying he must heal the hive. Amirite?
>rantology's enzyme solution Probably the best solution so far because there's active choices, a cost and teamwork. Unfortunately if it's fast enough to make it not boring it probably nullifies the ability for marines to have a second try. If the aliens can consistently heal the hive back up most of the way we will eventually see hive HP being reduced so that hives can be killed in the first assault.
>rantology's hive heal rate idea kind of similar to the crag solution except it's limited to just what the one hive can do, but as before.. How much faster? Has combat implications, reduces the ability for marines to retry.
So it seems that there's no escaping what necro said early on - either we accept that marines can get a kill over successive tries and we're stuck with slow hive healing, or we make it symetrical in which case there are a bunch of ways to make it so that the gorge never has a boring job healing the hive.
To me it feels like gorge healing other players is fine. If an onos attacks with 1-2 gorges healing, it's a noticable effect, and it makes me want to go for the gorge. That feels good from both sides point of view. When welding as a marine, it feels really fast, and while it could be slowed for balance, I don't like welding stuff, and spend time doing it just for the sake of balance. Marines already spend more time building than aliens.
But when looking at hives, it really feels like a boring job to heal them. It takes too long. I think that the ideas where gorges heal them a bit sounds like something I could support. Maybe when they are healed to 50% or more, they heal the rest faster, or we could have heals that stack or ramp up. For balance it shouldn't be a problem, that the grenade spamming marines in jetpacks have to find the gorge as well as be able to hit the big hive.
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1949047:date=Jul 5 2012, 01:09 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Dude, it required some pretty 'linear' thinking on your part to decide that I'm implying a gorge will always be heaing the hive under the current or proposed models and that you would always be able to kill him but chose not to. Basically you've completely missed my point. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1949051:date=Jul 5 2012, 01:20 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 5 2012, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, it does require some pretty 'linear' thinking on your part to think that I'm implying i just want to say that a gorges take to long to heal a hive in comparison to the marines repairing their CC but i do not want a change. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1949056:date=Jul 5 2012, 01:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, so the purpose of this thread was <i>not</i> to open a discussion about chaging the healspeed of hives by gorges. My mistake.
What is the purpose of this thread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Play nice, people. I'm keeping my eye on this thread.
@Khyron Why didn't you add the simple balancing ideas like "heal the hive for 1% per sec", "increase the healing so that 1 gorge can neutralize 1 LMG marine".
I agree that you don't see marines welding the CC when there are melee based aliens attacking the CC, but i do see marines repairing the CC during the combat if it is a gorge or lerk attacking the CC. You did say it yourself that marines are ranged based and that's the reason why gorges healing the hive are more common that marines repairing the cc.
<!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 4 2012, 08:39 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 4 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. Marines don't have to be bored repairing a CC, while aliens have to Well, honestly you don't see marines welding while aliens are standing beside them attacking the same structure so that's kind of a non-issue, right? The reverse is possible because the marines have ranged attack. Not sure what's actually being proposed here. Also, nobody's holding a gun to the gorges head saying he must heal the hive. Amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You did quote two different things in this. 1) Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. <<< That's something we have to discuss i'd say. I think it's okay that marines can/have to attack hives more then once in a short period of time. I'd say if the alien hive is undefended (no whips, no crags, no hydras) the marines should have to take down the hive in one attack. If the hive is defended and they have to take down these structures first and they die while/after doing this, i think they should have the opportunity to attack again. Seriously those who fail to destroy a undefended hive shouldn't be awarded.
2) Marines don't have to be bored repairing a CC, while aliens have to. <<< I think that one thing everyone agrees on no one should be bored with the task to heal their hive or repair their CC.
Also you are not really serious with the comment that nobody's holding a gun to the gorges head saying he must heal the hive? Well yes of course he could just run away when the hive is being attacked or he could try to attack the marine but that would clearly result in losing the hive.
I think there are possibilities to improve the current system without making it symmetrical.
<!--quoteo(post=1949133:date=Jul 5 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 5 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Play nice, people. I'm keeping my eye on this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry was late last night when i wrote that comment. But i did feel mocked since khyron started with this, although i wasn't his "target". It did annoy me that he start a mathematical approach to the problem than ruled out any change by numbers that weren't even close to a serious approach, "Currently 2 gorges neutralize the damage of 1 lmg marine" and he made a example with "1 gorge being able to neutralize 2 marines". I don't want to start a discussion about this now so i just apologize for starting to get personal.
<!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just re-read the thread checking for solutions to the problem. So far we've got... > Necro's ban gorge healing the hive idea Good except it reduces your options, reduces the depth of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This solution sure takes away one of your options. And may also be a bit unintuitive. But from a game-design view it is better to take away a boring mechanic than to keep it just because it is useful. Never should a player be forced to bore himself in order to be effective. Never should the game become a chore. NS has already some chores. As marine building a RT may be ok, because you are afraid of being attacked the whole time. Building the robot factory is already a whole lot more boring. But being "forced" (in this context is forced = if you want to play effective and help your team win) to heal a hive for more than 2 minutes (even 1 minute is to much) is a pain in the onos-butt. It is just the time that is too damn high. Good game design would want you to skip this feature. It isn't even really necessary. If to unintuitive, display a message when a gorge tries to heal a hive. Note: All this thoughts are based on the fact that we choose "pro (A)". <!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->> Necro's fast heal/slow heal idea Looks like most people favour the system where marines can kill a hive over two or more assaults. If we were ready to give up that, then you couldjust make the hive have a passive regen that ramps up like the welder does currently, no need for the gorge to be involved and saves complexity with making a special case for gorges healing hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I'm not wrong, the welder already works this way. It ramps its healing up over time if the target received no damage. (See bilebombs damage over time as counter.) If worried that it may be to unintuitive the gorge healing could ramp up in general if the target receives no damage. Even on lifeforms. I don't think this will shift balance much. In combat the gorge does not more healing as now, as long as his target is damaged. The time you gain from healing a lifeform out of combat is already really short. So I don't think this idea would change much in balance here. What I do worry about is, that the balance may shift in favor to aliens because the marines lose the ability of consecutive hive attacking. So you probably will have to adjust hive health with this change. Also you take away another part of asymmetry from the game and reduce the variety of the game a bit. For what? Note: Again only thought in regard of "against (A)" <!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Ice30's crags should heal the hive better How much better? Crags could be spammed around the hive which could mess about with combat DPS quite a bit. It could also impact on marine ability to make those extra assaults by healing the hive too much too quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This may lead to heavy inbalances if the numbers are chosen too high. If chosen too low it does not really deal with the main problem, that as gorge healing a hive is boring. As long as it is the slightest bit effective to heal the hive, the gorge would want to do that if he wants to win the game. Sacrificing himself to a boring chore. (Putting up 3 craigs around every hive and using the heal ability while attacked, seems already overpowered. If the numbers posted here are right, you could outheal 6 marines with the heal ability of 3 craigs. Will try this in my next games as Khammander.) <!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. Marines don't have to be bored repairing a CC, while aliens have to Well, honestly you don't see marines welding while aliens are standing beside them attacking the same structure so that's kind of a non-issue, right? The reverse is possible because the marines have ranged attack. Not sure what's actually being proposed here. Also, nobody's holding a gun to the gorges head saying he must heal the hive. Amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This really is no problem for marines. I think because of the healing-ramp-up of the welder on targets that receive no damage. And also the vulnerability of a welding marine. But in regard of the statement that the gorge does his healing voluntary: I have stated before that this is not all of the truth. If the gorge want to win, he will heal the hive. It's not that you play without the goal to win the game. And if it is possible to help your team by doing a boring chore, some people will do it. This is just really bad game design. A game should never give you an incentive to do a chore. <!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>rantology's enzyme solution Probably the best solution so far because there's active choices, a cost and teamwork. Unfortunately if it's fast enough to make it not boring it probably nullifies the ability for marines to have a second try. If the aliens can consistently heal the hive back up most of the way we will eventually see hive HP being reduced so that hives can be killed in the first assault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This also does not really solve the problem. Needing the commander in order to circumvent a boring game mechanic for another player, won't work most of the time. All the more when you need drifters, a shift hive, a placed shift near the hive and a commander that is aware of this tactic. Pretty unlikely situation I think.
PS. And yes, please keep it nice. No need for emotions here. They just distract from the problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1949137:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:09 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 5 2012, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Khyron Why didn't you add the simple balancing ideas like "heal the hive for 1% per sec", "increase the healing so that 1 gorge can neutralize 1 LMG marine".
...
1) Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. <<< That's something we have to discuss i'd say. I think it's okay that marines can/have to attack hives more then once in a short period of time. I'd say if the alien hive is undefended (no whips, no crags, no hydras) the marines should have to take down the hive in one attack. If the hive is defended and they have to take down these structures first and they die while/after doing this, i think they should have the opportunity to attack again. Seriously those who fail to destroy a undefended hive shouldn't be awarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to check if I got you right: So you answer with "against (A)"? At least in regards to the hive-building itself. More attacks should be possible in order to kill the defense structures, but the hive itself should be killed in one run or it will be fully healed again?
Fair enough. This is a good point. But I think the simplest solution to this would really be to give the gorge healing ramp-up over time when his target is not receiving damage. The first two solutions you wrote contain the possibility of changing the balance badly. Making the hive practically invincible during an attack. ramp-up would solve the problem without touching the balance during fights.
But balance problems remain, because marines lose the ability of consecutive hive attacks.
<!--quoteo(post=1949144:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:22 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 5 2012, 04:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to check if I got you right: So you answer with "against (A)"? At least in regards to the hive-building itself. More attacks should be possible in order to kill the defense structures, but the hive itself should be killed in one run or it will be fully healed again?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not that it will be fully healed but that the aliens have a way to heal it fully in a not boring way if they want to heal it. If no alien is going gorge and will heal the hive and the marines return then the hive should be around the same health it did have when the marines died. So if the marines return they still could finish it in a few seconds if no one did heal it.
<!--quoteo(post=1949144:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:22 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 5 2012, 04:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fair enough. This is a good point. But I think the simplest solution to this would really be to give the gorge healing ramp-up over time when his target is not receiving damage. The first two solutions you wrote contain the possibility of changing the balance badly. Making the hive practically invincible during an attack. ramp-up would solve the problem without touching the balance during fights.
But balance problems remain, because marines lose the ability of consecutive hive attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good to me with the gorge healing ramp-up over time when his target is not receiving damage. I don't think it would be fun to get a stalemate where aliens can outheal the marine damage all the time. It isn't possible for the marine so i don't think it should be possible for the aliens. Though i think both sides should be able to temporarily lengthen the lifetime of a structure for some time during the combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1949148:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:50 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 5 2012, 04:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949148"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds good to me with the gorge healing ramp-up over time when his target is not receiving damage. I don't think it would be fun to get a stalemate where aliens can outheal the marine damage all the time. It isn't possible for the marine so i don't think it should be possible for the aliens. Though i think both sides should be able to temporarily lengthen the lifetime of a structure for some time during the combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For those who are still in favour of making it possible, one way or another, for the hive to be quickly healed, dispite the pitfalls that have been discussed exhaustively , I think the only way to move foward is to start being specific about how quickly they would like it to be healed. Some of you could be just wanting a few <i>percent</i> faster than the current method, while a few others seem to want the whole process to be a few <i>times</i> faster. The worst case scenario, mature hive at 1 hp with 1 gorge fully healing with no shift, 175 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1949137:date=Jul 5 2012, 07:09 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 5 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Khyron Why didn't you add the simple balancing ideas like "heal the hive for 1% per sec", "increase the healing so that 1 gorge can neutralize 1 LMG marine"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I just collated the ideas put foward in the thread. If I missed one, it wasn't a malicious omission.
<!--quoteo(post=1949133:date=Jul 5 2012, 06:56 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 5 2012, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Play nice, people. I'm keeping my eye on this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That second post where I wanted to know what the point of this thread? I meant that sincerely.
I re-read the first post and yeah it was pretty clear that the hive wasn't the main issue for Nakorson, but a lot of the replies changed it to that topic pretty quickly.
I'm not this good with numbers but i think it would be cool if you could heal a hive vom 1% to 100% in about a minute. So if the last marine died and a gorge would start healing the hive immediatly that it would be at 100% after a minute. I think it should start with about 1% per second increasing over time. Something like this: 10sec 10% 20sec 25% 30sec 45% 40sec 60% 50sec 80% 60sec 100%
So if the marines did return after 30sec the hive would still be around 50% which would still be pretty easy to kill. But we need somehow take into account that the gorge will run out of energy. Maybe this is a bit to far off, but could a hive work like a small shift? so increase the energy regeneration that gorge doesn't run out of energy while healing it?
Comments
A'right, it's your thread. Have at it. :) So far I can't see a reason for any change.
Sometimes a really good game design has 99 cool feaures but at a cost of 1 sucky feature, I guess I see it like that: There's a lot of good gameplay in the asymetry of hives having lots of HP and sometimes marines fail the first attack but can come back for a second try. The one downside is that it can be boring for a gorge to heal the hive.
Sometimes the marines kill the hive on the first try and other times the marines barely do any damage before they're wiped out. Passive regen means you don't have to do the repair work every time. Maybe its a problem for people who like to play as a gorge more often than not? I like to play as marine 50% of the time, and cmdr/kmdr maybe 20% of the time, so maybe two games out of five I'm an alien and then i'll mix it up by being different lifeforms throughout the game. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me.
> Necro's ban gorge healing the hive idea
Good except it reduces your options, reduces the depth of the game.
> Necro's fast heal/slow heal idea
Looks like most people favour the system where marines can kill a hive over two or more assaults. If we were ready to give up that, then you couldjust make the hive have a passive regen that ramps up like the welder does currently, no need for the gorge to be involved and saves complexity with making a special case for gorges healing hives.
>Ice30's crags should heal the hive better
How much better? Crags could be spammed around the hive which could mess about with combat DPS quite a bit. It could also impact on marine ability to make those extra assaults by healing the hive too much too quickly.
>Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. Marines don't have to be bored repairing a CC, while aliens have to
Well, honestly you don't see marines welding while aliens are standing beside them attacking the same structure so that's kind of a non-issue, right? The reverse is possible because the marines have ranged attack. Not sure what's actually being proposed here. Also, nobody's holding a gun to the gorges head saying he must heal the hive. Amirite?
>rantology's enzyme solution
Probably the best solution so far because there's active choices, a cost and teamwork.
Unfortunately if it's fast enough to make it not boring it probably nullifies the ability for marines to have a second try. If the aliens can consistently heal the hive back up most of the way we will eventually see hive HP being reduced so that hives can be killed in the first assault.
>rantology's hive heal rate idea
kind of similar to the crag solution except it's limited to just what the one hive can do, but as before.. How much faster? Has combat implications, reduces the ability for marines to retry.
So it seems that there's no escaping what necro said early on - either we accept that marines can get a kill over successive tries and we're stuck with slow hive healing, or we make it symetrical in which case there are a bunch of ways to make it so that the gorge never has a boring job healing the hive.
But when looking at hives, it really feels like a boring job to heal them. It takes too long. I think that the ideas where gorges heal them a bit sounds like something I could support. Maybe when they are healed to 50% or more, they heal the rest faster, or we could have heals that stack or ramp up. For balance it shouldn't be a problem, that the grenade spamming marines in jetpacks have to find the gorge as well as be able to hit the big hive.
Dude, it required some pretty 'linear' thinking on your part to decide that I'm implying a gorge will always be heaing the hive under the current or proposed models and that you would always be able to kill him but chose not to. Basically you've completely missed my point.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1949051:date=Jul 5 2012, 01:20 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 5 2012, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, it does require some pretty 'linear' thinking on your part to think that I'm implying i just want to say that a gorges take to long to heal a hive in comparison to the marines repairing their CC but i do not want a change.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1949056:date=Jul 5 2012, 01:33 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, so the purpose of this thread was <i>not</i> to open a discussion about chaging the healspeed of hives by gorges. My mistake.
What is the purpose of this thread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Play nice, people. I'm keeping my eye on this thread.
Why didn't you add the simple balancing ideas like "heal the hive for 1% per sec", "increase the healing so that 1 gorge can neutralize 1 LMG marine".
I agree that you don't see marines welding the CC when there are melee based aliens attacking the CC, but i do see marines repairing the CC during the combat if it is a gorge or lerk attacking the CC. You did say it yourself that marines are ranged based and that's the reason why gorges healing the hive are more common that marines repairing the cc.
<!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 4 2012, 08:39 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 4 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. Marines don't have to be bored repairing a CC, while aliens have to
Well, honestly you don't see marines welding while aliens are standing beside them attacking the same structure so that's kind of a non-issue, right? The reverse is possible because the marines have ranged attack. Not sure what's actually being proposed here. Also, nobody's holding a gun to the gorges head saying he must heal the hive. Amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You did quote two different things in this.
1) Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. <<< That's something we have to discuss i'd say. I think it's okay that marines can/have to attack hives more then once in a short period of time. I'd say if the alien hive is undefended (no whips, no crags, no hydras) the marines should have to take down the hive in one attack. If the hive is defended and they have to take down these structures first and they die while/after doing this, i think they should have the opportunity to attack again. Seriously those who fail to destroy a undefended hive shouldn't be awarded.
2) Marines don't have to be bored repairing a CC, while aliens have to. <<< I think that one thing everyone agrees on no one should be bored with the task to heal their hive or repair their CC.
Also you are not really serious with the comment that nobody's holding a gun to the gorges head saying he must heal the hive? Well yes of course he could just run away when the hive is being attacked or he could try to attack the marine but that would clearly result in losing the hive.
I think there are possibilities to improve the current system without making it symmetrical.
<!--quoteo(post=1949133:date=Jul 5 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 5 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Play nice, people. I'm keeping my eye on this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry was late last night when i wrote that comment. But i did feel mocked since khyron started with this, although i wasn't his "target". It did annoy me that he start a mathematical approach to the problem than ruled out any change by numbers that weren't even close to a serious approach, "Currently 2 gorges neutralize the damage of 1 lmg marine" and he made a example with "1 gorge being able to neutralize 2 marines". I don't want to start a discussion about this now so i just apologize for starting to get personal.
<!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just re-read the thread checking for solutions to the problem. So far we've got...
> Necro's ban gorge healing the hive idea
Good except it reduces your options, reduces the depth of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This solution sure takes away one of your options. And may also be a bit unintuitive. But from a game-design view it is better to take away a boring mechanic than to keep it just because it is useful. Never should a player be forced to bore himself in order to be effective. Never should the game become a chore. NS has already some chores. As marine building a RT may be ok, because you are afraid of being attacked the whole time. Building the robot factory is already a whole lot more boring. But being "forced" (in this context is forced = if you want to play effective and help your team win) to heal a hive for more than 2 minutes (even 1 minute is to much) is a pain in the onos-butt. It is just the time that is too damn high. Good game design would want you to skip this feature. It isn't even really necessary. If to unintuitive, display a message when a gorge tries to heal a hive.
Note: All this thoughts are based on the fact that we choose "pro (A)".
<!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->> Necro's fast heal/slow heal idea
Looks like most people favour the system where marines can kill a hive over two or more assaults. If we were ready to give up that, then you couldjust make the hive have a passive regen that ramps up like the welder does currently, no need for the gorge to be involved and saves complexity with making a special case for gorges healing hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm not wrong, the welder already works this way. It ramps its healing up over time if the target received no damage. (See bilebombs damage over time as counter.) If worried that it may be to unintuitive the gorge healing could ramp up in general if the target receives no damage. Even on lifeforms. I don't think this will shift balance much. In combat the gorge does not more healing as now, as long as his target is damaged. The time you gain from healing a lifeform out of combat is already really short. So I don't think this idea would change much in balance here.
What I do worry about is, that the balance may shift in favor to aliens because the marines lose the ability of consecutive hive attacking. So you probably will have to adjust hive health with this change. Also you take away another part of asymmetry from the game and reduce the variety of the game a bit. For what?
Note: Again only thought in regard of "against (A)"
<!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Ice30's crags should heal the hive better
How much better? Crags could be spammed around the hive which could mess about with combat DPS quite a bit. It could also impact on marine ability to make those extra assaults by healing the hive too much too quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may lead to heavy inbalances if the numbers are chosen too high. If chosen too low it does not really deal with the main problem, that as gorge healing a hive is boring. As long as it is the slightest bit effective to heal the hive, the gorge would want to do that if he wants to win the game. Sacrificing himself to a boring chore. (Putting up 3 craigs around every hive and using the heal ability while attacked, seems already overpowered. If the numbers posted here are right, you could outheal 6 marines with the heal ability of 3 craigs. Will try this in my next games as Khammander.)
<!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. Marines don't have to be bored repairing a CC, while aliens have to
Well, honestly you don't see marines welding while aliens are standing beside them attacking the same structure so that's kind of a non-issue, right? The reverse is possible because the marines have ranged attack. Not sure what's actually being proposed here. Also, nobody's holding a gun to the gorges head saying he must heal the hive. Amirite?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This really is no problem for marines. I think because of the healing-ramp-up of the welder on targets that receive no damage. And also the vulnerability of a welding marine. But in regard of the statement that the gorge does his healing voluntary: I have stated before that this is not all of the truth. If the gorge want to win, he will heal the hive. It's not that you play without the goal to win the game. And if it is possible to help your team by doing a boring chore, some people will do it. This is just really bad game design. A game should never give you an incentive to do a chore.
<!--quoteo(post=1949090:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>rantology's enzyme solution
Probably the best solution so far because there's active choices, a cost and teamwork.
Unfortunately if it's fast enough to make it not boring it probably nullifies the ability for marines to have a second try. If the aliens can consistently heal the hive back up most of the way we will eventually see hive HP being reduced so that hives can be killed in the first assault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This also does not really solve the problem. Needing the commander in order to circumvent a boring game mechanic for another player, won't work most of the time. All the more when you need drifters, a shift hive, a placed shift near the hive and a commander that is aware of this tactic. Pretty unlikely situation I think.
PS. And yes, please keep it nice. No need for emotions here. They just distract from the problem.
Why didn't you add the simple balancing ideas like "heal the hive for 1% per sec", "increase the healing so that 1 gorge can neutralize 1 LMG marine".
...
1) Marines should not be able to out-heal an alien attack if aliens cannot either. <<< That's something we have to discuss i'd say. I think it's okay that marines can/have to attack hives more then once in a short period of time. I'd say if the alien hive is undefended (no whips, no crags, no hydras) the marines should have to take down the hive in one attack. If the hive is defended and they have to take down these structures first and they die while/after doing this, i think they should have the opportunity to attack again. Seriously those who fail to destroy a undefended hive shouldn't be awarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to check if I got you right: So you answer with "against (A)"? At least in regards to the hive-building itself. More attacks should be possible in order to kill the defense structures, but the hive itself should be killed in one run or it will be fully healed again?
Fair enough. This is a good point. But I think the simplest solution to this would really be to give the gorge healing ramp-up over time when his target is not receiving damage. The first two solutions you wrote contain the possibility of changing the balance badly. Making the hive practically invincible during an attack. ramp-up would solve the problem without touching the balance during fights.
But balance problems remain, because marines lose the ability of consecutive hive attacks.
Not that it will be fully healed but that the aliens have a way to heal it fully in a not boring way if they want to heal it. If no alien is going gorge and will heal the hive and the marines return then the hive should be around the same health it did have when the marines died. So if the marines return they still could finish it in a few seconds if no one did heal it.
<!--quoteo(post=1949144:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:22 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 5 2012, 04:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fair enough. This is a good point. But I think the simplest solution to this would really be to give the gorge healing ramp-up over time when his target is not receiving damage. The first two solutions you wrote contain the possibility of changing the balance badly. Making the hive practically invincible during an attack. ramp-up would solve the problem without touching the balance during fights.
But balance problems remain, because marines lose the ability of consecutive hive attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good to me with the gorge healing ramp-up over time when his target is not receiving damage. I don't think it would be fun to get a stalemate where aliens can outheal the marine damage all the time. It isn't possible for the marine so i don't think it should be possible for the aliens. Though i think both sides should be able to temporarily lengthen the lifetime of a structure for some time during the combat.
Yeah this would be nice.
<!--quoteo(post=1949137:date=Jul 5 2012, 07:09 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 5 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Khyron
Why didn't you add the simple balancing ideas like "heal the hive for 1% per sec", "increase the healing so that 1 gorge can neutralize 1 LMG marine"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just collated the ideas put foward in the thread. If I missed one, it wasn't a malicious omission.
<!--quoteo(post=1949133:date=Jul 5 2012, 06:56 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 5 2012, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Play nice, people. I'm keeping my eye on this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That second post where I wanted to know what the point of this thread? I meant that sincerely.
I re-read the first post and yeah it was pretty clear that the hive wasn't the main issue for Nakorson, but a lot of the replies changed it to that topic pretty quickly.
10sec 10%
20sec 25%
30sec 45%
40sec 60%
50sec 80%
60sec 100%
So if the marines did return after 30sec the hive would still be around 50% which would still be pretty easy to kill. But we need somehow take into account that the gorge will run out of energy.
Maybe this is a bit to far off, but could a hive work like a small shift? so increase the energy regeneration that gorge doesn't run out of energy while healing it?