ARCs should not work on infestation, because theyr traking system gets irritated by the bacteria, that is one thing I would love to see. And ARCs should be louder when moving around, like sentrys do, so the Alien can hear them.
Else I need to say ARCs are ok how they are now, they move slowly, have less health when undeployed, cost alot of res, can DMG themself if they hit a structure nearby, they don't track cysts anymore, they need good cover tu survive 1 BB gorge and Shades can block the com scan.
They are only a problem when spamed and slitt in 2 groups, but if the rines have res for that action, Aliens failed on the reswar side, and a forced beacon can force the ARCs to be uncovered.
<!--quoteo(post=1952145:date=Jul 18 2012, 01:57 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 18 2012, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Activating an ARC just means it can behave as the current deployed ARC does. So yeah, it would keep firing until there are no targets or they are undeployed by the commander.
It would look like this: 1) Commander moves sieges to location and "deploys" ARC 2) Marines "activate" the deployed ARC 3) ARC can now fire at things 4a) ARC is "undeployed" by commander and moved elsewhere or 4b) ARC is left "deployed" (and "activated") to hold location<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, I didn't imagine that's how you'd want it to work. Few questions come to mind <ol type='1'><li>Doesn't it seem a bit clunky/artificial?</li><li>How would aliens be able to identify an activated ARC from a deployed ARC?</li><li>How long does it take to activate? Is it just a matter of touching the ARC or do the marines have to stand there and hold down e?</li><li>I get that you've made the extra step because marines might accidentally deploy the ARCs, but since you're already allowing the Cmdr to undeploy, isn't it a non-issue?</li></ol>
Also, I don't think your solution addresses any of the problems I listed. ARCs can still drive past permiter defences, they can still assault the hive directly and marines would be even more of a slave to the commander's ARC will. One marine could activate many ARCs, especially with a Jetpack. My initial reaction was that your solution addresses a different set of problems. What problems do you think it solves?
As long as ARCs are capable of attacking the hive directly there is an incentive to build an excessive number of ARCs to create that hitpoint buffer. The balance aproach so far is to increase the cost of ARCs which has just harmed their mid-game viability. The key thing my suggestion does is remove the incentive to build an excessive number of ARCs. The key thing your suggestion does is change target prioritisation so that ARCs are always a target of oportunity (if an alien knows he can preven the ARC being activated by killing the marines first).
<!--quoteo(post=1952156:date=Jul 17 2012, 01:17 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 17 2012, 01:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just thought about it while walking home. How about ARCs can be deployed by the commander but it takes about 10sec to deploy and undeploy them but the marines can speed the process up. Similar to the building of structures on the alien side where the gorge can speed it up.
Edit: Also the movement-, attack- and deploymentspeed could be decreased while the ARC is on infestation. So it would still be possible to use them on the infestation but it wouldn't be effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this idea does help the issue, even if it doesn't solve it. By giving the ARCs a much longer deployment time, it would make an unprotected ARC train much more vulnerable (as an ARC would be removing its armor to be able to shoot, so it is weaker for a longer period of time before it can fire); but still possible. By allowing a Marine to speed up an ARC's deployment, it lets the Marine feel important - it also allows a team to have choices in how they make an attack. And by continuing to allow Commanders to attack on their own, it doesn't disallow for distraction attacks.
I also like the second bit about reducing the different kinds of speeds while on infestation, however the "attack speed" nerf is kinda pointless -> after the first barrage, the infestation around them should already be receding and so wouldn't come into play except for the first or second shot. I would be cautious that the worst deployment speed isn't too long, otherwise it would driver players nuts.
<!--quoteo(post=1952205:date=Jul 17 2012, 03:28 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 17 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this idea does help the issue, even if it doesn't solve it. By giving the ARCs a much longer deployment time, it would make an unprotected ARC train much more vulnerable (as an ARC would be removing its armor to be able to shoot, so it is weaker for a longer period of time before it can fire); but still possible. By allowing a Marine to speed up an ARC's deployment, it lets the Marine feel important - it also allows a team to have choices in how they make an attack. And by continuing to allow Commanders to attack on their own, it doesn't disallow for distraction attacks.
I also like the second bit about reducing the different kinds of speeds while on infestation, however the "attack speed" nerf is kinda pointless -> after the first barrage, the infestation around them should already be receding and so wouldn't come into play except for the first or second shot. I would be cautious that the worst deployment speed isn't too long, otherwise it would driver players nuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought about 10sec (maybe even longer to make marines more important?) to deploy a ARC without the help of a marine. When 1 marine helps the time cut be cut by half to 5sec, with 2 marines to 2,5sec or something like that. Shouldn't be shorter than that i think. On Infestation it could be 50% - 100% more.
You've got a point there with the speed reduction after the first shot. But the infestation isn't gone instanly after the cysts have been destroyed and the ARCs could keep the debuff for some time.
Right now, with the current mechanics, and a few capable players, a marine commander is much better off sinking his/her Tres into jetpacks, grenade launchers and flamethrowers. Without an effective alien counter to cheap, maneouverable jet packs, marines run rings around the aliens and and single-handedly take down hives.
Back to the topic, though - I think there should be a hard cap on arcs (one per robot factory) with a corresponding armor buff - ie., make it as powerful as about 2-3 arcs in the current (214) build.
@Khyron - I did read it - I just don't agree with it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An abstract limit on the number of ARCs (a "cap") is a rudimentary solution which won't address the current problems and could create new problems. They will still be able to roll in to the hive, they will still be responsible for ending the game, marines will still have to take a back seat in guarding them. It may lead to stalemates where marines are unable to kill the last hive, or worse, a protracted end game for marine victory where it's clear that the marines are going to win anyway. In the endgame, they will be built to maximum quantity, going in wave after wave because there is nothing better to spend the resources on. The only question is, is the artificial limit high enough that they're an effective mid game strategy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"They will still be able to roll in to the hive, responsible for ending the game"... how is this any different from 3 Onos running into the marine base and turning the CC into powder? If they don't put a hard cap on the number of arcs, you <i>WILL</i> see arc trains. They're too cheap not to do it. So I support the asymmetry call in this one.
In fact - though some people dislike the hard cap on clogs and hydras - I support it and think there should be a hard cap on all buildable structures, if just to prevent overloading the server. A popular and easy way to do this is to create 150 drifters and send them all to the command chair. Still think there shouldn't be a hard cap?
<!--quoteo(post=1952252:date=Jul 17 2012, 09:43 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 17 2012, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Back to the topic, though - I think there should be a hard cap on arcs (one per robot factory) with a corresponding armor buff - ie., make it as powerful as about 2-3 arcs in the current (214) build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is an interesting idea, worth some thought at the least. I'm not big on having these "Super ARCs".. as it would draw out killing the thing for the Kharaa, and as soon as it dies needing to drive a new one out to location for the Marines. But on the other hand, one "Super ARC" which worked in effect like multiple ARCs would take less time to kill then 10 ARCs in a train.
Would you buff the Damage up to 2-3 ARCs, or just the health, or what? If you're talking about damage as well, then I would say it would be too OP. The good part about weaker ARCs is that multiple are required to take down a hive -> this lets the Kharaa kill one or two and slow down the assault.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Khyron - I did read it - I just don't agree with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Fair enough, I couldn't tell.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"They will still be able to roll in to the hive, responsible for ending the game"... how is this any different from 3 Onos running into the marine base and turning the CC into powder?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess the main difference is that ARCs are NPC units.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they don't put a hard cap on the number of arcs, you <i>WILL</i> see arc trains.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're too cheap not to do it. So I support the asymmetry call in this one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well the price doesn't matter, it's not that they're too cheap. If sentries were 100 tRes and only did 1dps, they'd still be spammed, albeit slower. It's because of the late game economy where you have res to spend so you'll spend it on anything that gives you any kind of advantage. I'm not sure why you're meantioning asymmetry.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact - though some people dislike the hard cap on clogs and hydras - I support it and think there should be a hard cap on all buildable structures, if just to prevent overloading the server. A popular and easy way to do this is to create 150 drifters and send them all to the command chair. Still think there shouldn't be a hard cap?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, yes. I think the design should be changed such that there's no advantage to spamming any kind of unit. If you still want to build more but can't because of a cap, it's an artifical punishment. Conversely, if you no longer see an advantage in spamming, you don't. In your drifter example, the simplest solution would be to remove the ability for drifters to deal damage. It would be inconsequential to other parts of the game but remove the temptation to spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1952252:date=Jul 18 2012, 11:43 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there should be a hard cap on arcs (one per robot factory) with a corresponding armor buff - ie., make it as powerful as about 2-3 arcs in the current (214) build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Firstly, how is that different from just making the cost of an ARC more expensive? It's not like there's a shortage of space to build robofactories. Secondly, if ARCs were very tough I would definately drive them in to a hive, even if it had no hope of doing damage. Any time the aliens spend attacking the ARC, they're not attacking marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1952271:date=Jul 17 2012, 10:58 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 17 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly, how is that different from just making the cost of an ARC more expensive? It's not like there's a shortage of space to build robofactories. Secondly, if ARCs were very tough I would definately drive them in to a hive, even if it had no hope of doing damage. Any time the aliens spend attacking the ARC, they're not attacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a difference it would allow the marine team to attack earlier in the game with arcs. If arcs were so expensive that it would be no real choice in mid game early late game before everything else is researched you could make it a T3 tech. A cap would still allow the arcs in this phase of game but it would not be so powerful since they had to build a robo + upgrade for each arc.
<!--quoteo(post=1952198:date=Jul 17 2012, 09:55 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 17 2012, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, I didn't imagine that's how you'd want it to work. Few questions come to mind <ol type='1'><li>Doesn't it seem a bit clunky/artificial?</li><li>How would aliens be able to identify an activated ARC from a deployed ARC?</li><li>How long does it take to activate? Is it just a matter of touching the ARC or do the marines have to stand there and hold down e?</li><li>I get that you've made the extra step because marines might accidentally deploy the ARCs, but since you're already allowing the Cmdr to undeploy, isn't it a non-issue?</li></ol>
Also, I don't think your solution addresses any of the problems I listed. ARCs can still drive past permiter defences, they can still assault the hive directly and marines would be even more of a slave to the commander's ARC will. One marine could activate many ARCs, especially with a Jetpack. My initial reaction was that your solution addresses a different set of problems. What problems do you think it solves?
As long as ARCs are capable of attacking the hive directly there is an incentive to build an excessive number of ARCs to create that hitpoint buffer. The balance aproach so far is to increase the cost of ARCs which has just harmed their mid-game viability. The key thing my suggestion does is remove the incentive to build an excessive number of ARCs. The key thing your suggestion does is change target prioritisation so that ARCs are always a target of oportunity (if an alien knows he can preven the ARC being activated by killing the marines first).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ol type='1'><li>I don't think it's any less clunky/artificial than dropping structures out of the sky to build. Commander clicks won't increase and marines just build/activate the ARC like they would any other building.</li><li>In reality, with proper implementation, marines and aliens will know clearly what state an ARC is in (undeployed/deployed/activated). This can be done in a myriad of ways.</li><li>I think this is a question of balance and can be tweaked very easily</li><li>It would still be a nuisance to undeploy the ARCs every second, methinks</li></ol> As for whether it cures your perceived problems, I think it does. The hitpoint buffer syndrome is more present in your solution where the commander can still inch his way through alien territory by overwhelming aliens with huge numbers of ARCs. In mine, the sieges would be effectively useless unless there was a marine there (easier said, than done). Extra ARCs don't serve as hitpoint buffers because they are redundant in the first place. Remember that only if a marine activates the ARC, does it become functional - at which point, they deserve to have the ARC anyway because it will have entailed holding the position successfully or getting there without aliens noticing.
The issue of direct attacks on the hive ceases to exist when it is tied with marines and activation. Your proposal sounds like a long stop-start crawl, all done by the commander, and still revolving around PvE. Mine, on the other hand, puts the emphasis back on PvP by treating the ARCs not as NPCs but as roaming buildings which require attention and, therefore, marine vs alien engagement. Basically, there are two problems with the ARCs; that they can be amassed and that they are 100% functional with or without marines. By fixing the second problem with marine activation, you cure the first because the trains cease to work beyond a reasonable number. There would be no point building more ARCs than the team could handle.
<!--quoteo(post=1952271:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:58 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 18 2012, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly, how is that different from just making the cost of an ARC more expensive? It's not like there's a shortage of space to build robofactories. Secondly, if ARCs were very tough I would definately drive them in to a hive, even if it had no hope of doing damage. Any time the aliens spend attacking the ARC, they're not attacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a commander has enough Tres to build multiple robot factories, do the arc upgrade and create a dozen super arcs, he or she is dominating the map and the game <i>should</i> be ending. So fine, don't tune up the arcs, but if you just capped the number I can totally see the marines being more interested in defending them. The hard cap solution also has the advantage of being implementable without new graphics or mechanics, in time for a next patch.
<!--quoteo(post=1952309:date=Jul 18 2012, 10:54 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a commander has enough Tres to build multiple robot factories, do the arc upgrade and create a dozen super arcs, he or she is dominating the map and the game <i>should</i> be ending.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well my issue with that is that ARCs shouldn't be a game ending unit. They should be a support unit. That's the role I would try to design ARCs to fit, and that's why I think making them only able to attack the alien front line, rather than deep behind enemey territiory, refocuses the role of ARCs.
For what it's worth the <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ns2highdesign" target="_blank">high level design doc</a> says that there shouldn't be game ending tech or lifeforms etc. I'm not sure if this document is still relevant given all the seemingly random features going in to the game latley.
I think perhaps you're misinterpreting how I am meant the phrase "should be ending". I don't think the ARCs are game-ending units, I'm just saying that if you are in a Tres situation that you can build a pile of robo factories and accompanying arcs, then the game is likely to be ending. That said, I think that right now jet packs are way more powerful and exploitable than ARCs; bile bomb and the shade's ink ability have really given the aliens a counter against arcs.
<!--quoteo(post=1952791:date=Jul 21 2012, 12:37 AM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Jul 21 2012, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B214 i dont think ive seen an ARC yet. And i rarely see Senterys too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They've pretty much been relegated to the absolute end game when there's nothing else to spend the tRes on. Any comm who knows what they're doing would go for GLs to do the work that would otherwise be done by ARCs. Sentries are the least cost effective thing, so comms would rather get upgrades, Phase gates, JP etc etc first.
Comments
And ARCs should be louder when moving around, like sentrys do, so the Alien can hear them.
Else I need to say ARCs are ok how they are now, they move slowly, have less health when undeployed, cost alot of res, can DMG themself if they hit a structure nearby, they don't track cysts anymore, they need good cover tu survive 1 BB gorge and Shades can block the com scan.
They are only a problem when spamed and slitt in 2 groups, but if the rines have res for that action, Aliens failed on the reswar side, and a forced beacon can force the ARCs to be uncovered.
It would look like this:
1) Commander moves sieges to location and "deploys" ARC
2) Marines "activate" the deployed ARC
3) ARC can now fire at things
4a) ARC is "undeployed" by commander and moved elsewhere
or
4b) ARC is left "deployed" (and "activated") to hold location<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I didn't imagine that's how you'd want it to work. Few questions come to mind
<ol type='1'><li>Doesn't it seem a bit clunky/artificial?</li><li>How would aliens be able to identify an activated ARC from a deployed ARC?</li><li>How long does it take to activate? Is it just a matter of touching the ARC or do the marines have to stand there and hold down e?</li><li>I get that you've made the extra step because marines might accidentally deploy the ARCs, but since you're already allowing the Cmdr to undeploy, isn't it a non-issue?</li></ol>
Also, I don't think your solution addresses any of the problems I listed. ARCs can still drive past permiter defences, they can still assault the hive directly and marines would be even more of a slave to the commander's ARC will. One marine could activate many ARCs, especially with a Jetpack. My initial reaction was that your solution addresses a different set of problems. What problems do you think it solves?
As long as ARCs are capable of attacking the hive directly there is an incentive to build an excessive number of ARCs to create that hitpoint buffer. The balance aproach so far is to increase the cost of ARCs which has just harmed their mid-game viability. The key thing my suggestion does is remove the incentive to build an excessive number of ARCs. The key thing your suggestion does is change target prioritisation so that ARCs are always a target of oportunity (if an alien knows he can preven the ARC being activated by killing the marines first).
Edit:
Also the movement-, attack- and deploymentspeed could be decreased while the ARC is on infestation. So it would still be possible to use them on the infestation but it wouldn't be effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this idea does help the issue, even if it doesn't solve it. By giving the ARCs a much longer deployment time, it would make an unprotected ARC train much more vulnerable (as an ARC would be removing its armor to be able to shoot, so it is weaker for a longer period of time before it can fire); but still possible. By allowing a Marine to speed up an ARC's deployment, it lets the Marine feel important - it also allows a team to have choices in how they make an attack. And by continuing to allow Commanders to attack on their own, it doesn't disallow for distraction attacks.
I also like the second bit about reducing the different kinds of speeds while on infestation, however the "attack speed" nerf is kinda pointless -> after the first barrage, the infestation around them should already be receding and so wouldn't come into play except for the first or second shot. I would be cautious that the worst deployment speed isn't too long, otherwise it would driver players nuts.
I also like the second bit about reducing the different kinds of speeds while on infestation, however the "attack speed" nerf is kinda pointless -> after the first barrage, the infestation around them should already be receding and so wouldn't come into play except for the first or second shot. I would be cautious that the worst deployment speed isn't too long, otherwise it would driver players nuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought about 10sec (maybe even longer to make marines more important?) to deploy a ARC without the help of a marine. When 1 marine helps the time cut be cut by half to 5sec, with 2 marines to 2,5sec or something like that. Shouldn't be shorter than that i think. On Infestation it could be 50% - 100% more.
You've got a point there with the speed reduction after the first shot. But the infestation isn't gone instanly after the cysts have been destroyed and the ARCs could keep the debuff for some time.
Back to the topic, though - I think there should be a hard cap on arcs (one per robot factory) with a corresponding armor buff - ie., make it as powerful as about 2-3 arcs in the current (214) build.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An abstract limit on the number of ARCs (a "cap") is a rudimentary solution which won't address the current problems and could create new problems. They will still be able to roll in to the hive, they will still be responsible for ending the game, marines will still have to take a back seat in guarding them. It may lead to stalemates where marines are unable to kill the last hive, or worse, a protracted end game for marine victory where it's clear that the marines are going to win anyway. In the endgame, they will be built to maximum quantity, going in wave after wave because there is nothing better to spend the resources on. The only question is, is the artificial limit high enough that they're an effective mid game strategy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"They will still be able to roll in to the hive, responsible for ending the game"... how is this any different from 3 Onos running into the marine base and turning the CC into powder? If they don't put a hard cap on the number of arcs, you <i>WILL</i> see arc trains. They're too cheap not to do it. So I support the asymmetry call in this one.
In fact - though some people dislike the hard cap on clogs and hydras - I support it and think there should be a hard cap on all buildable structures, if just to prevent overloading the server. A popular and easy way to do this is to create 150 drifters and send them all to the command chair. Still think there shouldn't be a hard cap?
This is an interesting idea, worth some thought at the least. I'm not big on having these "Super ARCs".. as it would draw out killing the thing for the Kharaa, and as soon as it dies needing to drive a new one out to location for the Marines. But on the other hand, one "Super ARC" which worked in effect like multiple ARCs would take less time to kill then 10 ARCs in a train.
Would you buff the Damage up to 2-3 ARCs, or just the health, or what? If you're talking about damage as well, then I would say it would be too OP. The good part about weaker ARCs is that multiple are required to take down a hive -> this lets the Kharaa kill one or two and slow down the assault.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"They will still be able to roll in to the hive, responsible for ending the game"... how is this any different from 3 Onos running into the marine base and turning the CC into powder?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess the main difference is that ARCs are NPC units.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they don't put a hard cap on the number of arcs, you <i>WILL</i> see arc trains.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're too cheap not to do it. So I support the asymmetry call in this one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well the price doesn't matter, it's not that they're too cheap. If sentries were 100 tRes and only did 1dps, they'd still be spammed, albeit slower. It's because of the late game economy where you have res to spend so you'll spend it on anything that gives you any kind of advantage. I'm not sure why you're meantioning asymmetry.
<!--quoteo(post=1952262:date=Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 18 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact - though some people dislike the hard cap on clogs and hydras - I support it and think there should be a hard cap on all buildable structures, if just to prevent overloading the server. A popular and easy way to do this is to create 150 drifters and send them all to the command chair. Still think there shouldn't be a hard cap?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, yes. I think the design should be changed such that there's no advantage to spamming any kind of unit. If you still want to build more but can't because of a cap, it's an artifical punishment. Conversely, if you no longer see an advantage in spamming, you don't. In your drifter example, the simplest solution would be to remove the ability for drifters to deal damage. It would be inconsequential to other parts of the game but remove the temptation to spam.
Firstly, how is that different from just making the cost of an ARC more expensive? It's not like there's a shortage of space to build robofactories.
Secondly, if ARCs were very tough I would definately drive them in to a hive, even if it had no hope of doing damage. Any time the aliens spend attacking the ARC, they're not attacking marines.
Secondly, if ARCs were very tough I would definately drive them in to a hive, even if it had no hope of doing damage. Any time the aliens spend attacking the ARC, they're not attacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a difference it would allow the marine team to attack earlier in the game with arcs. If arcs were so expensive that it would be no real choice in mid game early late game before everything else is researched you could make it a T3 tech. A cap would still allow the arcs in this phase of game but it would not be so powerful since they had to build a robo + upgrade for each arc.
<ol type='1'><li>Doesn't it seem a bit clunky/artificial?</li><li>How would aliens be able to identify an activated ARC from a deployed ARC?</li><li>How long does it take to activate? Is it just a matter of touching the ARC or do the marines have to stand there and hold down e?</li><li>I get that you've made the extra step because marines might accidentally deploy the ARCs, but since you're already allowing the Cmdr to undeploy, isn't it a non-issue?</li></ol>
Also, I don't think your solution addresses any of the problems I listed. ARCs can still drive past permiter defences, they can still assault the hive directly and marines would be even more of a slave to the commander's ARC will. One marine could activate many ARCs, especially with a Jetpack. My initial reaction was that your solution addresses a different set of problems. What problems do you think it solves?
As long as ARCs are capable of attacking the hive directly there is an incentive to build an excessive number of ARCs to create that hitpoint buffer. The balance aproach so far is to increase the cost of ARCs which has just harmed their mid-game viability. The key thing my suggestion does is remove the incentive to build an excessive number of ARCs. The key thing your suggestion does is change target prioritisation so that ARCs are always a target of oportunity (if an alien knows he can preven the ARC being activated by killing the marines first).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ol type='1'><li>I don't think it's any less clunky/artificial than dropping structures out of the sky to build. Commander clicks won't increase and marines just build/activate the ARC like they would any other building.</li><li>In reality, with proper implementation, marines and aliens will know clearly what state an ARC is in (undeployed/deployed/activated). This can be done in a myriad of ways.</li><li>I think this is a question of balance and can be tweaked very easily</li><li>It would still be a nuisance to undeploy the ARCs every second, methinks</li></ol>
As for whether it cures your perceived problems, I think it does. The hitpoint buffer syndrome is more present in your solution where the commander can still inch his way through alien territory by overwhelming aliens with huge numbers of ARCs. In mine, the sieges would be effectively useless unless there was a marine there (easier said, than done). Extra ARCs don't serve as hitpoint buffers because they are redundant in the first place. Remember that only if a marine activates the ARC, does it become functional - at which point, they deserve to have the ARC anyway because it will have entailed holding the position successfully or getting there without aliens noticing.
The issue of direct attacks on the hive ceases to exist when it is tied with marines and activation. Your proposal sounds like a long stop-start crawl, all done by the commander, and still revolving around PvE. Mine, on the other hand, puts the emphasis back on PvP by treating the ARCs not as NPCs but as roaming buildings which require attention and, therefore, marine vs alien engagement. Basically, there are two problems with the ARCs; that they can be amassed and that they are 100% functional with or without marines. By fixing the second problem with marine activation, you cure the first because the trains cease to work beyond a reasonable number. There would be no point building more ARCs than the team could handle.
Secondly, if ARCs were very tough I would definately drive them in to a hive, even if it had no hope of doing damage. Any time the aliens spend attacking the ARC, they're not attacking marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a commander has enough Tres to build multiple robot factories, do the arc upgrade and create a dozen super arcs, he or she is dominating the map and the game <i>should</i> be ending. So fine, don't tune up the arcs, but if you just capped the number I can totally see the marines being more interested in defending them. The hard cap solution also has the advantage of being implementable without new graphics or mechanics, in time for a next patch.
Well my issue with that is that ARCs shouldn't be a game ending unit. They should be a support unit. That's the role I would try to design ARCs to fit, and that's why I think making them only able to attack the alien front line, rather than deep behind enemey territiory, refocuses the role of ARCs.
For what it's worth the <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ns2highdesign" target="_blank">high level design doc</a> says that there shouldn't be game ending tech or lifeforms etc. I'm not sure if this document is still relevant given all the seemingly random features going in to the game latley.
They've pretty much been relegated to the absolute end game when there's nothing else to spend the tRes on. Any comm who knows what they're doing would go for GLs to do the work that would otherwise be done by ARCs. Sentries are the least cost effective thing, so comms would rather get upgrades, Phase gates, JP etc etc first.