<!--quoteo(post=1950599:date=Jul 11 2012, 02:05 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 11 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are absolutely going to hate what I am going to say but I will say it anyways. Sorry.
The game should not be balanced around competitive play. Most of the people that play will be public games. I also think you are wrong, and I love the idea of reduced rez nodes, it would allow for more comebacks with smart teams and better streamline the whole game. But these are just my opinions on a game I will be playing for fun and not in clan matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not wrong. It is my opinion, just as you have yours.
I believe the game should be balanced around competitive play because that is usually the players who reach the top of the skill ceiling and promote the game for all you pubbers. Counter Strike wouldnt have been as popular as it was without the competitive scene (which i was apart of so i am bias but i dont think this statement is wrong). NS2 has been promoted heavily through the beta competitive games casted on the weekend.
Your statement would be like rules being changed in Basketball to suit high school ball that would effect the NBA. Add any sport to this analogy and it will fit. It is silly to balance the game on random pub experiences. In competitive games there isnt only that the players are good but you generally have the same players playing for each team a lot. Let's face it, this is a TEAM game and competitive matches show case players who work as a team the best. You dont see many all players for themselves clan team that win consistently for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1950599:date=Jul 11 2012, 02:13 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 11 2012, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: What I mean is that the vast majority of new players will not be playing in a clan match they will be playing in pugs. I think it would be a better business decision to have a more pug friendly rule set for the base game. Competitive matches could mod their games to have whatever the league rules determine are more balanced for competitive play. Most new gamers are going to run into a issue where there is spam and late game doesn't work cleanly because there is nothing left to research.
I really believe that Necro's idea is a way to make the game run more smoothly through a pug match and would create a lot more variety in what is considered important locations on the map. It would also allow for map makers to create maps that are more similar to RTS's where you see each side take their nodes until they are fighting for the ones right next to each other and/or dropping the main base. Right now the node in the main starting area is still worth the same at the end of the game when one side is trapped in their base and that just doesn't feel right to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While you have a point that E-Sports can have a mod that alters the game to be more conducive but it doesnt make sense to put pubbers on training wheels. Allow for the Pub scene to mature and grow in skill and you will see a lot less spam stalemates (which sounds ridiculous to me and sounds more like a lack of skill/strategy). Necro's change isnt needed at this point because the game isnt feature complete. Once we have everything in (which is soon) we can start balancing properly. Im not saying i enjoy every aspect of the game as is, but im ok with the game as-is so we can test out bugs as we beta testers should be doing.
In the end i dont like Necro's suggestion because it puts a timer on every game (reward players advancing and reaching end game tech, don't put a leash on it.). Let games play out how they will. If you have a long game that there isnt any give and teams are equal... F4, because those are the games i enjoy, but to each his own.
Thx Asimov. I haven't even thought of that: It will give a new incentive to do relocates. Plus: I don't see what you are worried about, RisingSun. In most Comp-games you wouldn't come even near the semi-depletion of the RTs. So where is the problem in making a new rule, that will stop the spamming of ARCs or alien-buildings and make long lasting pub-games more fun?
Also, you seem to see the ARC train as a valid tactic. I like to have a fair and fun game. ARC-trains destroying that. They are not counterable. Sure, they end games. But not in a fun way. The main-idea of semi-finite res does not only stop the alien-building-spam, it also bans the need of ARCs to end such a game.
And in general to pub-vs-comp: A game should be balanced for comp-games. But also has to be fun at pub-games. This are the two goals. Both should be equally desired.
You're correct. I should have not said wrong, bad choice of words on my part. I should say I disagree with your assessment. But I would say your analogy is off as well.
There are many rules that change from recreational sports which a vast number of people play and enjoy to that of high competitive sports. I would specifically point out that the NCAA has different clock settings, different 3 point line adjustments and defensive half circle rule under the basket. Those are just off the top of my head. I think since the engine allows for this it should really be explored.
Got to run to a meeting. So I may flush this out more later. I respect your opinions and I think this open discussion is worth continuing. Sorry if my first post came off poorly. I am not the best writer, I find it hard to express my thoughts through written communication...probably why I became and engineer.
<!--quoteo(post=1950604:date=Jul 11 2012, 02:28 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 11 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're correct. I should have not said wrong, bad choice of words on my part. I should say I disagree with your assessment. But I would say your analogy is off as well.
There are many rules that change from recreational sports which a vast number of people play and enjoy to that of high competitive sports. I would specifically point out that the NCAA has different clock settings, different 3 point line adjustments and defensive half circle rule under the basket. Those are just off the top of my head. I think since the engine allows for this it should really be explored.
Got to run to a meeting. So I may flush this out more later. I respect your opinions and I think this open discussion is worth continuing. Sorry if my first post came off poorly. I am not the best writer, I find it hard to express my thoughts through written communication...probably why I became and engineer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Np, and Touche. I just dont want such a different game from pub to comp play that is difficult to transition between the two.
@Necro - Ill reread your OP again and see if i can be more constructive in my critique.
[HEI] SpadeJoin Date: 2012-04-28Member: 151223Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1950599:date=Jul 11 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 11 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are absolutely going to hate what I am going to say but I will say it anyways. Sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 Would have said exactly the same!
@RisingSun: you seems to want to build this game on a competitive basis (all the team on TS, know each other very well, play very well, have a define strategy for the game, have an exceptional commander, master all the possible sides of gameplay). As Asimov said, if you want this game to be competitive based, make a mod and let public games legitimate in this discussion. I still agree that competition NEEDS to have an influence on the game to make it even better with its sensations and with a bit of gameplay which should be skill-based, BUT playable if you are not very skilled.
To reply to your last post, balancing a game through competition is useless. why? because competitors are not all the players and their skills are not a need-to-have because it's very hard to reach it. Furthermore, i agree that competition made its role into the promotion of the game. But what will happen if there is only clans playing the game? it will be dead! I wish this game won't be dead, i promoted it a lot even if i'm not a clan member. And i think that pub players have their word to say on how the game should be done! :)
To take your example of the basketball: it is playable and you can have fun even if you are not skilled! What would have happened if you only can shoot from the 3points line? And maybe look in the basketball history but i don't think that basketball rules were competitively based... You can't take it as an argument in this.
Maybe remember the Ascension project? You involved yourself to let new people in competition, i implicated myself in this project and one day you just told me: "I don't agree with the direction the game is going, so i won't play the game much anymore. I leave the project." It is your opinion, but what did you do when you went back to the US? You joined the #156... I was a bit like 0_O when i saw that.
You can have your opinion but others can be right too. The competition side of the game won't be the majority of gamers and i wish it not ever will be the case, because if competition is not the exception, it's not competition anymore!
I have a huge admiration of a lot of clan members, i have a huge respect for them, but most of them don't take the competitive play as the fundamental gameplay of NS2.
Maybe ask the devs about it? They want to make their game easy to play and not as difficult as competition is.
Cheers
EDIT: For Necro's idea, i think it's not a very good idea (but still be good ;)). why? because the RTs make some rooms important to defend, and as soon as they lose their main purpose is highly reduced (getting ressources), their importance will be reduced as well. That's my opinion, but with some tweaks at the initial idea it should be tested!
<!--quoteo(post=1950611:date=Jul 11 2012, 02:44 PM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Jul 11 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Maybe remember the Ascension project? You involved yourself to let new people in competition, i implicated myself in this project and one day you just told me: "I don't agree with the direction the game is going, so i won't play the game much anymore. I leave the project." It is your opinion, but what did you do when you went back to the US? You joined the #156... I was a bit like 0_O when i saw that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was frustrated with the game at that time and felt nothing was happening to the game for the better. After talking with a lot of competitive players and getting through my stressful move over the pond i found peace in Team 156. Great group of guys who happen to mostly be play testers with the most positive outlook. They never tell me anything about their play test session (much to my dismay) but assure me things are being discussed and looked at. I joined them because they are a great group of guys and i enjoy playing the game with them.
As for Ascension, aside from the lack of faith, i couldnt devote the amount of time it deserved. Out of game i have a family and job that demands much of my time atm. So i backed off of the project because i wasnt the right person to lead it.
Back to the thread:
Even after rereading it, i still think we can find an easier solution without adding a cap on res earned in game. As Swalk said "The "spamming problems" we see in the end-game can be fixed by adjusting costs."
The devs will always go with the change that offers the least amount of work to fix the problem. (imo)
<!--quoteo(post=1950334:date=Jul 11 2012, 12:57 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 11 2012, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]<b>After a Res-Node is depleted, it only produces 1/10 of the T-Res it normally does.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought this idea had potential until I got to here and realised the implications. It's easy to guess that the intention of this point is to have the 1/10th fund all the assist stuff, medpacks and such. But it's also pretty easy to imagine commanders just waiting longer to do all the spammy stuff that this suggestion is trying to fix. You could adjust the figure but I think the outcome would be similar.
At the fringe case, if tRes was truely capped, I imagine two possible outcomes: 1. the cap is so generous that spam still happens 2. the cap is tight enough that both teams go to great lengths to kill any structure. Imagine if you could take down a whip and it would never be rebuilt.
It's interesting that part of the problem OP described is confined to pub games. Maybe there could be a server option which simply forces an end round after some amount of time. Server administrators could then set pub games to end as they see fit, maybe 1hr, 45min whatever. The game could provide an unobtrusive countdown for the last 5 minutes or so. The best outcome would be to get pub gammers to have more experinece with the start game than the end game stalemates...
edit for clarity: <i>Rather</i> than spending the 1/10th on assists, commanders might hoard the monies and save for spamming sentries or arcs etc. I'm not sure if this translates to something on the alien side... Better to remove the temptation to spam by removing the benefits of spamming through improved game design.
I don't see commanders given the option to wait so long to spam, if they do the other team will probably be pushing. Then of course if they did hold out then they probably deserve so spam and win. I would love it if we could test this in some actual games though. I think it puts a whole new dynamic into play that would smooth out a lot of the end game problems we are seeing.
<!--quoteo(post=1950624:date=Jul 11 2012, 06:16 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jul 11 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... <i>Rather</i> than spending the 1/10th on assists, commanders might hoard the monies and save for spamming sentries or arcs etc. I'm not sure if this translates to something on the alien side... Better to remove the temptation to spam by removing the benefits of spamming through improved game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A solution that is perfect, does not exist. Because it fixes only 90% of the problems doesn't mean the idea is bad. The 1/10 (Btw. a number that is very random and should be object to balance.) is just to compensate the missing of researchable tech at this point. Something that lessens the need of late-game-res-dumps.
If you say, that the com could hoard the res anyway, than this is also true for early- and mid-games. But personally I think it won't be a problem. It will be more effective to support your troops with abilities in this game state than to try a spam-tactic. Because spam only becomes viable now when you don't have to worry about your res.
Once the main res had ran out, games started to stagnate. Teams could no longer afford high tech or lifeforms, so games went from T1 things, to T3 things, then back down to T1 things on both side, no matter which side was winning. This happened over and over again, no matter how much tweaking was done. Often it would just take longer, or shorter to get to that stage which was not fun for either side. Having a soft cap simply puts off the inevitable, or makes the game more like Combat with people just using their own PRES to buy things. Playtesters who loved combat and NS did not enjoy this wind-down of tech on either side.
If you want to try it for yourself, I would suggest you make a mod and you will almost certainly run into the same issue we had while testing these ideas.
<!--quoteo(post=1950923:date=Jul 12 2012, 07:25 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 12 2012, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We tried capped res in playtests a while back, and lots of variations of it internally. It does not work for NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, give map makers the option?
If it sucks - we never see it. If it works - we will see it.
<!--quoteo(post=1950929:date=Jul 12 2012, 06:47 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 12 2012, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once the main res had ran out, games started to stagnate. Teams could no longer afford high tech or lifeforms, so games went from T1 things, to T3 things, then back down to T1 things on both side, no matter which side was winning. This happened over and over again, no matter how much tweaking was done. Often it would just take longer, or shorter to get to that stage which was not fun for either side. Having a soft cap simply puts off the inevitable, or makes the game more like Combat with people just using their own PRES to buy things. Playtesters who loved combat and NS did not enjoy this wind-down of tech on either side.
If you want to try it for yourself, I would suggest you make a mod and you will almost certainly run into the same issue we had while testing these ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just wondering if you tried it where tres was capped per node but pres was not. It sounds from your post like you just capped the full res income at different levels. I assume you did it per node and not total, but did you try it with reduced income amounts per node?
<!--quoteo(post=1950929:date=Jul 12 2012, 01:47 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 12 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once the main res had ran out, games started to stagnate. Teams could no longer afford high tech or lifeforms, so games went from T1 things, to T3 things, then back down to T1 things on both side, no matter which side was winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but I don't get it. How does it go back to Tier1 when P-Res wasn't capped?
<!--quoteo(post=1950929:date=Jul 12 2012, 01:47 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 12 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This happened over and over again, no matter how much tweaking was done. Often it would just take longer, or shorter to get to that stage which was not fun for either side. Having a soft cap simply puts off the inevitable, or makes the game more like Combat with people just using their own PRES to buy things. Playtesters who loved combat and NS did not enjoy this wind-down of tech on either side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like a hard-cap not a soft-cap. Are you sure you tried a soft-cap of T-Res that only has to compensate the missing of new tech to research, but does not stop the income total?
Sorry for the dumb questions, but I got the feeling that 90% of the people only read the topic but not the actual post.
[HEI] SpadeJoin Date: 2012-04-28Member: 151223Members, Squad Five Blue
I trust what the playtesters founded, and its quite logical... They must have tried "soft cap" as you say.
The logic is at one point of the game, the commander doesn't have any options because of a lack of enough res (ninja pg, support, shift/crags/shade, whips, etc.) because there is Tier 3 in front of you you need those.
Other thing you didn't consider is that to keep your pres flow you need to keep your RTs. The flow is very low and you need enough RTs to keep a correct flow to not wait 15 minutes to get an onos. Aliens and marines just need to rush the RTs to keep this flow own and considering that the Tres flow is very low also, the comm needs to wait long before having the possibility of building an RT. By that time he can't support, and make a proper strategy to win. So with a lack of RTs you keep the techs down from both teams: lifeforms and weapons => back to T1.
Your idea leads to a stack on both teams, now we sometimes have 60+ minutes game, and with that feature it would bring that even longer, and it's not the point! Giving less options to the commander is not a good idea at all.
I gave the idea of a cap of structures by rooms to prevent some stupid spams (20 turrets in a room is: 1-useless, 2-unplayable). It can stop some huge drops of FPS while going in rooms :) and i definitely trust that spam is not the solution to win. I NEVER needed them! to clear a room full of cysts, use marines and 3 arcs maximum... A moderate cap for each rooms (15 arcs, 10 turrets, 10 whips, 5 armories, 5 crags...) should be enough to give enough freedom to the commander and prevent spam and FPS drops caused by spmming :) Of course capping is not a solution but can contribute ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1950951:date=Jul 12 2012, 03:20 PM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Jul 12 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I trust what the playtesters founded, and its quite logical... They must have tried "soft cap" as you say.
The logic is at one point of the game, the commander doesn't have any options because of a lack of enough res (ninja pg, support, shift/crags/shade, whips, etc.) because there is Tier 3 in front of you you need those.
Other thing you didn't consider is that to keep your pres flow you need to keep your RTs. The flow is very low and you need enough RTs to keep a correct flow to not wait 15 minutes to get an onos. Aliens and marines just need to rush the RTs to keep this flow own and considering that the Tres flow is very low also, the comm needs to wait long before having the possibility of building an RT. By that time he can't support, and make a proper strategy to win. So with a lack of RTs you keep the techs down from both teams: lifeforms and weapons => back to T1.
Your idea leads to a stack on both teams, now we sometimes have 60+ minutes game, and with that feature it would bring that even longer, and it's not the point! Giving less options to the commander is not a good idea at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, that sounds logical. After thinking about this again, I should have used another title for the thread. T-Res-Depletion is the wrong word and 1/10 may be really too much. But what if it were only 1/5 or 1/3 of the original T-Res-output? Remember, all I try to achieve is to compensate the missing of new tech to research after the end of the tech-tree is reached. After that moment your T-Res is drastically increasing and you are nearly forced to spam. I don't think that has been tested already.
Comments
The game should not be balanced around competitive play. Most of the people that play will be public games. I also think you are wrong, and I love the idea of reduced rez nodes, it would allow for more comebacks with smart teams and better streamline the whole game. But these are just my opinions on a game I will be playing for fun and not in clan matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not wrong. It is my opinion, just as you have yours.
I believe the game should be balanced around competitive play because that is usually the players who reach the top of the skill ceiling and promote the game for all you pubbers. Counter Strike wouldnt have been as popular as it was without the competitive scene (which i was apart of so i am bias but i dont think this statement is wrong). NS2 has been promoted heavily through the beta competitive games casted on the weekend.
Your statement would be like rules being changed in Basketball to suit high school ball that would effect the NBA. Add any sport to this analogy and it will fit. It is silly to balance the game on random pub experiences. In competitive games there isnt only that the players are good but you generally have the same players playing for each team a lot. Let's face it, this is a TEAM game and competitive matches show case players who work as a team the best. You dont see many all players for themselves clan team that win consistently for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1950599:date=Jul 11 2012, 02:13 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 11 2012, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit:
What I mean is that the vast majority of new players will not be playing in a clan match they will be playing in pugs. I think it would be a better business decision to have a more pug friendly rule set for the base game. Competitive matches could mod their games to have whatever the league rules determine are more balanced for competitive play. Most new gamers are going to run into a issue where there is spam and late game doesn't work cleanly because there is nothing left to research.
I really believe that Necro's idea is a way to make the game run more smoothly through a pug match and would create a lot more variety in what is considered important locations on the map. It would also allow for map makers to create maps that are more similar to RTS's where you see each side take their nodes until they are fighting for the ones right next to each other and/or dropping the main base. Right now the node in the main starting area is still worth the same at the end of the game when one side is trapped in their base and that just doesn't feel right to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While you have a point that E-Sports can have a mod that alters the game to be more conducive but it doesnt make sense to put pubbers on training wheels. Allow for the Pub scene to mature and grow in skill and you will see a lot less spam stalemates (which sounds ridiculous to me and sounds more like a lack of skill/strategy). Necro's change isnt needed at this point because the game isnt feature complete. Once we have everything in (which is soon) we can start balancing properly. Im not saying i enjoy every aspect of the game as is, but im ok with the game as-is so we can test out bugs as we beta testers should be doing.
In the end i dont like Necro's suggestion because it puts a timer on every game (reward players advancing and reaching end game tech, don't put a leash on it.). Let games play out how they will. If you have a long game that there isnt any give and teams are equal... F4, because those are the games i enjoy, but to each his own.
Plus: I don't see what you are worried about, RisingSun. In most Comp-games you wouldn't come even near the semi-depletion of the RTs. So where is the problem in making a new rule, that will stop the spamming of ARCs or alien-buildings and make long lasting pub-games more fun?
Also, you seem to see the ARC train as a valid tactic. I like to have a fair and fun game. ARC-trains destroying that. They are not counterable. Sure, they end games. But not in a fun way. The main-idea of semi-finite res does not only stop the alien-building-spam, it also bans the need of ARCs to end such a game.
And in general to pub-vs-comp: A game should be balanced for comp-games. But also has to be fun at pub-games. This are the two goals. Both should be equally desired.
There are many rules that change from recreational sports which a vast number of people play and enjoy to that of high competitive sports. I would specifically point out that the NCAA has different clock settings, different 3 point line adjustments and defensive half circle rule under the basket. Those are just off the top of my head. I think since the engine allows for this it should really be explored.
Got to run to a meeting. So I may flush this out more later. I respect your opinions and I think this open discussion is worth continuing. Sorry if my first post came off poorly. I am not the best writer, I find it hard to express my thoughts through written communication...probably why I became and engineer.
There are many rules that change from recreational sports which a vast number of people play and enjoy to that of high competitive sports. I would specifically point out that the NCAA has different clock settings, different 3 point line adjustments and defensive half circle rule under the basket. Those are just off the top of my head. I think since the engine allows for this it should really be explored.
Got to run to a meeting. So I may flush this out more later. I respect your opinions and I think this open discussion is worth continuing. Sorry if my first post came off poorly. I am not the best writer, I find it hard to express my thoughts through written communication...probably why I became and engineer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Np, and Touche. I just dont want such a different game from pub to comp play that is difficult to transition between the two.
@Necro - Ill reread your OP again and see if i can be more constructive in my critique.
+1
Would have said exactly the same!
@RisingSun: you seems to want to build this game on a competitive basis (all the team on TS, know each other very well, play very well, have a define strategy for the game, have an exceptional commander, master all the possible sides of gameplay). As Asimov said, if you want this game to be competitive based, make a mod and let public games legitimate in this discussion. I still agree that competition NEEDS to have an influence on the game to make it even better with its sensations and with a bit of gameplay which should be skill-based, BUT playable if you are not very skilled.
To reply to your last post, balancing a game through competition is useless. why? because competitors are not all the players and their skills are not a need-to-have because it's very hard to reach it. Furthermore, i agree that competition made its role into the promotion of the game. But what will happen if there is only clans playing the game? it will be dead!
I wish this game won't be dead, i promoted it a lot even if i'm not a clan member. And i think that pub players have their word to say on how the game should be done! :)
To take your example of the basketball: it is playable and you can have fun even if you are not skilled! What would have happened if you only can shoot from the 3points line? And maybe look in the basketball history but i don't think that basketball rules were competitively based... You can't take it as an argument in this.
Maybe remember the Ascension project? You involved yourself to let new people in competition, i implicated myself in this project and one day you just told me: "I don't agree with the direction the game is going, so i won't play the game much anymore. I leave the project." It is your opinion, but what did you do when you went back to the US? You joined the #156... I was a bit like 0_O when i saw that.
You can have your opinion but others can be right too. The competition side of the game won't be the majority of gamers and i wish it not ever will be the case, because if competition is not the exception, it's not competition anymore!
I have a huge admiration of a lot of clan members, i have a huge respect for them, but most of them don't take the competitive play as the fundamental gameplay of NS2.
Maybe ask the devs about it? They want to make their game easy to play and not as difficult as competition is.
Cheers
EDIT:
For Necro's idea, i think it's not a very good idea (but still be good ;)). why? because the RTs make some rooms important to defend, and as soon as they lose their main purpose is highly reduced (getting ressources), their importance will be reduced as well. That's my opinion, but with some tweaks at the initial idea it should be tested!
Maybe remember the Ascension project? You involved yourself to let new people in competition, i implicated myself in this project and one day you just told me: "I don't agree with the direction the game is going, so i won't play the game much anymore. I leave the project." It is your opinion, but what did you do when you went back to the US? You joined the #156... I was a bit like 0_O when i saw that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was frustrated with the game at that time and felt nothing was happening to the game for the better. After talking with a lot of competitive players and getting through my stressful move over the pond i found peace in Team 156. Great group of guys who happen to mostly be play testers with the most positive outlook. They never tell me anything about their play test session (much to my dismay) but assure me things are being discussed and looked at. I joined them because they are a great group of guys and i enjoy playing the game with them.
As for Ascension, aside from the lack of faith, i couldnt devote the amount of time it deserved. Out of game i have a family and job that demands much of my time atm. So i backed off of the project because i wasnt the right person to lead it.
Back to the thread:
Even after rereading it, i still think we can find an easier solution without adding a cap on res earned in game. As Swalk said "The "spamming problems" we see in the end-game can be fixed by adjusting costs."
The devs will always go with the change that offers the least amount of work to fix the problem. (imo)
I thought this idea had potential until I got to here and realised the implications. It's easy to guess that the intention of this point is to have the 1/10th fund all the assist stuff, medpacks and such. But it's also pretty easy to imagine commanders just waiting longer to do all the spammy stuff that this suggestion is trying to fix. You could adjust the figure but I think the outcome would be similar.
At the fringe case, if tRes was truely capped, I imagine two possible outcomes: 1. the cap is so generous that spam still happens 2. the cap is tight enough that both teams go to great lengths to kill any structure. Imagine if you could take down a whip and it would never be rebuilt.
It's interesting that part of the problem OP described is confined to pub games. Maybe there could be a server option which simply forces an end round after some amount of time. Server administrators could then set pub games to end as they see fit, maybe 1hr, 45min whatever. The game could provide an unobtrusive countdown for the last 5 minutes or so. The best outcome would be to get pub gammers to have more experinece with the start game than the end game stalemates...
edit for clarity: <i>Rather</i> than spending the 1/10th on assists, commanders might hoard the monies and save for spamming sentries or arcs etc. I'm not sure if this translates to something on the alien side... Better to remove the temptation to spam by removing the benefits of spamming through improved game design.
A solution that is perfect, does not exist. Because it fixes only 90% of the problems doesn't mean the idea is bad. The 1/10 (Btw. a number that is very random and should be object to balance.) is just to compensate the missing of researchable tech at this point. Something that lessens the need of late-game-res-dumps.
If you say, that the com could hoard the res anyway, than this is also true for early- and mid-games. But personally I think it won't be a problem. It will be more effective to support your troops with abilities in this game state than to try a spam-tactic. Because spam only becomes viable now when you don't have to worry about your res.
If you want to try it for yourself, I would suggest you make a mod and you will almost certainly run into the same issue we had while testing these ideas.
Um, give map makers the option?
If it sucks - we never see it.
If it works - we will see it.
I believe this is called a 'win- win'.
If you want to try it for yourself, I would suggest you make a mod and you will almost certainly run into the same issue we had while testing these ideas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just wondering if you tried it where tres was capped per node but pres was not. It sounds from your post like you just capped the full res income at different levels. I assume you did it per node and not total, but did you try it with reduced income amounts per node?
Sorry but I don't get it. How does it go back to Tier1 when P-Res wasn't capped?
<!--quoteo(post=1950929:date=Jul 12 2012, 01:47 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 12 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This happened over and over again, no matter how much tweaking was done. Often it would just take longer, or shorter to get to that stage which was not fun for either side. Having a soft cap simply puts off the inevitable, or makes the game more like Combat with people just using their own PRES to buy things. Playtesters who loved combat and NS did not enjoy this wind-down of tech on either side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like a hard-cap not a soft-cap. Are you sure you tried a soft-cap of T-Res that only has to compensate the missing of new tech to research, but does not stop the income total?
Sorry for the dumb questions, but I got the feeling that 90% of the people only read the topic but not the actual post.
The logic is at one point of the game, the commander doesn't have any options because of a lack of enough res (ninja pg, support, shift/crags/shade, whips, etc.) because there is Tier 3 in front of you you need those.
Other thing you didn't consider is that to keep your pres flow you need to keep your RTs. The flow is very low and you need enough RTs to keep a correct flow to not wait 15 minutes to get an onos. Aliens and marines just need to rush the RTs to keep this flow own and considering that the Tres flow is very low also, the comm needs to wait long before having the possibility of building an RT. By that time he can't support, and make a proper strategy to win. So with a lack of RTs you keep the techs down from both teams: lifeforms and weapons => back to T1.
Your idea leads to a stack on both teams, now we sometimes have 60+ minutes game, and with that feature it would bring that even longer, and it's not the point! Giving less options to the commander is not a good idea at all.
I gave the idea of a cap of structures by rooms to prevent some stupid spams (20 turrets in a room is: 1-useless, 2-unplayable). It can stop some huge drops of FPS while going in rooms :) and i definitely trust that spam is not the solution to win. I NEVER needed them! to clear a room full of cysts, use marines and 3 arcs maximum... A moderate cap for each rooms (15 arcs, 10 turrets, 10 whips, 5 armories, 5 crags...) should be enough to give enough freedom to the commander and prevent spam and FPS drops caused by spmming :)
Of course capping is not a solution but can contribute ;)
I trust what the playtesters founded, and its quite logical... They must have tried "soft cap" as you say.
The logic is at one point of the game, the commander doesn't have any options because of a lack of enough res (ninja pg, support, shift/crags/shade, whips, etc.) because there is Tier 3 in front of you you need those.
Other thing you didn't consider is that to keep your pres flow you need to keep your RTs. The flow is very low and you need enough RTs to keep a correct flow to not wait 15 minutes to get an onos. Aliens and marines just need to rush the RTs to keep this flow own and considering that the Tres flow is very low also, the comm needs to wait long before having the possibility of building an RT. By that time he can't support, and make a proper strategy to win. So with a lack of RTs you keep the techs down from both teams: lifeforms and weapons => back to T1.
Your idea leads to a stack on both teams, now we sometimes have 60+ minutes game, and with that feature it would bring that even longer, and it's not the point! Giving less options to the commander is not a good idea at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, that sounds logical. After thinking about this again, I should have used another title for the thread. T-Res-Depletion is the wrong word and 1/10 may be really too much. But what if it were only 1/5 or 1/3 of the original T-Res-output? Remember, all I try to achieve is to compensate the missing of new tech to research after the end of the tech-tree is reached. After that moment your T-Res is drastically increasing and you are nearly forced to spam. I don't think that has been tested already.